No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

Bah... couldn't care less.

They should just delete the removed skills and reimburse the skillpoints and skillbooks from those.
After that people can spend the point to what ever they like. Obviously it is impossible to fly all faction BC's with the amount of points reimbursed, but that will be absolutely same for everyone. If you had trained some skill to 5, you get more skillpoints back than player who had trained some skill only to 4 ... and yes - you can put all those skillpoints even to mining upgrades skill if u please to do so.

Life is choices - this is an easy one.

If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.

I would just like the option to opt out if it comes to that. I have some hyper specialized characters that just don't need in any way a bunch of unneeded SP in places I don't want it.

Still early yet with the SP thing and I'm sure they haven't figured it out themselves. But options are always good.

Mr Epeen

You're the minority - how does it feel ?

You're the minority - how does it feel?

You're the minority - how does it feel?

You're the minority - how does it feel?

Tier removal and re-balancing of ships is awesome. What in the hell is wrong with a generic BC and destroyer skill tho? Other then making me have to train destroyers to atleast 4 on multiple accounts, in multiple different races now, even tho i don't even USE a destroyer on any of them. I've played eve for 5 years, if this happens as stated in the dev blog, i'm out.

Anyway, the reason this has to be done is because as it stands, the skill tree is unfinished (CCP standard up until Crucible). When the added the dessies and BCs to the game, they just stuck them in without changing the other ship skill trees. They are just now finishing the job.

They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

How is this even debatable?

You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.

Tier removal and re-balancing of ships is awesome. What in the hell is wrong with a generic BC and destroyer skill tho? Other then making me have to train destroyers to atleast 4 on multiple accounts, in multiple different races now, even tho i don't even USE a destroyer on any of them. I've played eve for 5 years, if this happens as stated in the dev blog, i'm out.


P.S. Yup, crying like a new born baby over this, i'll take my dozen or so accounts and ....

Why in the heck are people still complaining?

Because they suffer from ADD and cant bother comprehending such a long blog.

I've read the blog and as far as splitting up destroyers and BC skills are concerned. It's just bull.


Maybe CCP think by creating more skills from the skills we have they're adding content.

For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?

No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

Thats what I want to know. Though personally I find it more likely that in that case you wouldn't get Gallente BC.

Had you read the blog

"Due to the way nested requirements work, it would also mean pilots would not need to re-train anything to fly Battleships or Cruisers."

No, you should just not be able to use the ships anymore.

Train it to one, and then you can use it again, then you can get over it.

Of course CCP will cave to the softies, but they shouldn't. The best way to handle it is to just strip the BC/Destroyer skils, give back the spent skill points and put in the new skills.

The REAL oversight was when they implemented the singular BC/Destroyer skill in the first place. That was the mistake. Now they are doing it correctly.

"Get over it"

Do you have ANY idea how long it takes to crosstrain the relevant skills to fly multiple types of BC properly?

No, you should just not be able to use the ships anymore.

Train it to one, and then you can use it again, then you can get over it.

Of course CCP will cave to the softies, but they shouldn't. The best way to handle it is to just strip the BC/Destroyer skils, give back the spent skill points and put in the new skills.

The REAL oversight was when they implemented the singular BC/Destroyer skill in the first place. That was the mistake. Now they are doing it correctly.

"Get over it"

Do you have ANY idea how long it takes to crosstrain the relevant skills to fly multiple types of BC properly?

So if CCP made a mistake by not making racial versions of the BC/Destroyer skills and they now want to fix their mistake why should we be punished? Right now I have a character with perfect skills to fly any battlecruiser in the game and you are saying I'm a "softy" because I expect to be able to continue to do so?

Because they suffer from ADD and cant bother comprehending such a long blog.

Yes, I am saying you are a softy.

I think that was his point, he's basically saying it should be fair to everyone

I'm really glad CCP doesn't listen to people like you.

Maybe they should.

If a system is altered it should be fair to all their customers, not just favouring a few.

If CCP wants to fix their mistakes that is fantastic. Punishing their customers is the wrong way to do it and luckily it looks like they realize this. If a few people are upset about this and ragequit over it they certainly won't be missed.

Punishing their customers?

People with BC V under the new proposed systems are being given about 3x PLEX worth of training for free (talking about time).
All their other existing customers are getting that added to their training times.

So either way they're punishing their customers for their mistake, although I fail to see it as a real mistake because it's been like it for so long.

More than likely it was introduced as it was because they wanted to cause the minimum disruption at the time destroyers and BCs were introduced.

Only fair way would be to reimburse the sp that was used so as it can be reused.

Yes, if you can fly all battlecruisers now with perfect skills and then CCP removes that ability because they screwed up years ago when they added the non-racial battlecruiser skill then you are being punished for CCP's mistake. It would be unfair of them to diminish my ability to fly ships I currently can because they want to correct something that wasn't my fault.

There is literally no downside to how they are planning on doing this.

Well, I have BC at 5, so I'm gonna be one of the benefactors. I still do not agree with giving "free" skill points.

I could take my skill points that I have invested and gladlly put them in Gallente or Amarr BC.

See, I am arguing on principle, not upon self entitlement. The "Fair" way of handling it is just resetting those skill points invested. It's like that for every other racial ship type. (See BS and Cruiser).

All the whiners will be back in their pretty spam Drakes in little to no time anyway, don't worry.

Either way, It's not going to effect me.

For you (I'm alright Jack) there is no downside if they go ahead as they've talked about, for newer players and those not trained BCs to V yet there is.

GǪand yet, for newer players to get into Command Ships (the one thing in the game that actually requires BC V) will actually become easier with this change GÇö a lot easier if they want all the CSes.

On the contrary, Racial Battlecruiser V will be the same rank as regular Battlecruiser V, meaning in order to be able to fly all battlecruisers you will need to invest 4 times more skillpoints.

Yes. So what?

Being able to fly all battlecruisers at max skill isn't really something new players need to worry about GÇö that's one of those long-term goals that you will get to eventually. What new players need to do, now, in the past, and after this change, is to specialise, not try to do everything. This change actually lets them do that a whole lot better than they could before.

What CCP is doing here is increasing the granularity of ship skills. They are cutting things up in more discrete decision points and paths for you to take. You no longer have to specialise in AFs to specialise in HACs to specialise in CSes GÇö you can just do one of those and the others will be completely irrelevant to your effort. Yes, doing everything will be a (very) tiny bit more costly, but isn't that the way it should be? You will not have to invest 4+ù more skillpoints for the simple reason that the BC skill is not all you need to train, and the one thing you actually need BC V for has been made vastly cheaper than it currently is.

One specific choice GÇö being a jack of all trades, master of none-áall GÇö will require more training, but so very little more compared to everything else you must train that it makes fuckall difference. It's a rounding-error. Everything else will require less. This benefits old and new players alike.

By your argument we should Racialize everything.

Lets make newer players train more when they want to reach higher end of multiple ships.

No, that would defeat the purpose and is, in fact, besides the point. Doing that would not make specialising any faster. By my argument, we should actually Gǣun-racialiseGǥ everything and go for more role skills instead, but that would break the RP and will never happenGǪ

The part you're (still) missing is that the really big change here is the removal of cross-tier prerequisites and the improvements this will cause GÇö this is counterbalanced by the introduction of a strictly linear base hull progression because some skills unlocked a bit too much.

Why? That's almost exactly the opposite of what they're doing. Also, stop hiding behind the GÇ£new playersGÇ¥ cover GÇö new players will have it a whole lot easier with this change. Old players might be a bit inconvenienced, but meh, at that point, the extra time is insignificant on the scale of things anyway.

To get command ships, not only do you require Battlecruisers to V, but you also need the Racial Cruiser to V.

Oh and Tech 1 Battlecruisers require Racial Cruisers as a requisite to fly, meaning that it will take longer to fly multiple racial battlecruisers.

Yes. The part I'm not entirely clear on, is for example, consider that someone never had the pre reqs Minmatar Frigate and Cruiser to the required levels to fly the Hurricane in the first place, yet had BC5 to fly the Harbinger. Therefore, they couldn't fly a Hurricane today, so they have no reason to get given Minmatar Battlecruiser V. It seems, with BC5 people will get racial BC5, they've also said no need to retrain, what if they never trained those skills in the first place?

So to me the question seems to be, how do we "nerf proof" for the change?

If they restrict it to Command Ship it makes Command Ship out of line with the other specialist ships of EVE. If CS was just his example, this is much larger than "I can fly a Claymore because I can fly an Abso and a Nighthawk and trained cruiser in Gall and matar to 4".

Train BC V and Dessy V before the change.

How do you mean? The way I read it, they're doing the exact opposite: they're removing those restrictions GÇö Command Ships will be to BCs what, say, Logistics is to Cruisers: a simple GÇ£role skillGÇ¥ that has its own, quite separate, set of prereqs that have nothing to do with the hull you're flying, and the ships themselves simply have both the GÇ£hull skillGÇ¥ and the GÇ£role skillGÇ¥ as their prereqs.

Caldari Frigate V + Interceptor = you can fly the Crow and Raptor.
Caldari Cruiser V + Logistic = you can fly the Basilisk.
Caldari Battlecruiser V + Command Ship = you can fly the Nighthawk and Vulture.

They're stripping out all the other -åirrelevantGÇ¥ prereqs (e.g. Cruiser V for the actual CS ships, and BC V for the CS GÇ£role skillGÇ¥) and making it easier to precisely pick what you want to fly. Command ships are kind of special in this regard due to the silly mess of prereqs they have, and from what I understand, it's exactly that that they want to remove and make all ship classes work the same. Similarly, it sounds like they're removing the Cruiser prereq for the BC hulls (i.e. you no longer have to have Caldari Cruiser III to fly the Drake, you just need Caldari BC II; likewise, the Cormorant only requires Caldari Dessi I, rather than Caldari Frigate III).

Though my question is, how will they handle paradoxes?

For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?

They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

How is this even debatable?

You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.

You're a fool.

So you think it's ok that a player is simply given 30 days training time in only needing BS IV to fly a carrier, but that I (as someone who has 2 cruisers skilled to V and BC V) should have to (remap my skills and) train for an extra 35 days to be able to fly two racial BCs at V, as I already now can?

It's not about being entitled, but if you insist on using terms you hear on the internet, then ok fine - if I have trained a skill to a certain level then yes, I do feel entitled to possess that skill at such a level. It's pretty much common sense.

If they are going to push this change through then they should give every carrier pilot a reimbursement of BS V skillpoints (and then they could choose to train it to V again or use the points elsewhere). And anyone who can fly a ship at a certain level, should still be able to fly that ship at the same level after the expansion.

Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid.

As people have only spent x amount of time training them they should only get the same amount back.

Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid.

Though my question is, how will they handle paradoxes?

For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?

They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

How is this even debatable?

You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.

If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.

Just reimburse the SP.

Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid. To the ridiculous whiners who want to retain their ability to fly ALL racial BC and CS: well boohoo! You just use the reimbursed skillpoints to make one racial BC at 5 (or two races at 4). Then you train the rest up LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

Don't whine about what you can no longer do (until you learn skills again, which you will if it is really that important to you), but be grateful you were lucky enough to enjoy the diversity for so long for so little skillpoints invested.

and........if i have level IV in battlecruisers and destroyers?

..........

Though my question is, how will they handle paradoxes?

For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?

No, ships also have "secondary" and "tertiary" skill requirements which must be fulfilled before they can be piloted.

Or in other words, the Brutix currently requires Gallente Cruiser level 3 right now in order to be piloted. This is not going to change, even if it will also require Gallente Battlecruiser I.

Command ships will become the new T3 cruisers and every noob will fly them.

No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

If destroyers and battlecruisers were new ships, nobody would care.

As it stands now though, this idea is just terrible.

If skillpoints are refunded, then people suddenly only have one racial BC / destroyer V and can't fly all their ships.
If all the racial skills are given out, then everyone who hasn't trained the generic BC / destroyer V gets hit with the nerfbat. Including people who haven't even started playing yet.

If CCP is really determined to go through with this, my suggestion would be to put the new skills in the game a few months ahead of time and make them trainable, but not required. Then on some specific day refund the skillpoints from the generic skill. Sort of like the switch to POS fuel blocks, just with skills.

With destroyers though I just don't see the point - there's only one destroyer for each race, they lack a clearly defined role, and making them mandatory for cruisers will just slow people down.

Remove skills

Reimburse SP

Introduce racial destroyer as rank 1 skill and racial BC as a rank 2

With the reimbursed SP and a couple of days of training, everone will be able to fly the same ships again without putting the few alts that don't have BC V yet at a major disadvantage. Who gives a toss if they're quick to train? BCs are todays frigs anyway.

Those useless skills would be Signature Analysis V, Long Range Targeting V, Weapon Upgrades V

No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

The really funny thing about this thread is, no one is considering the amount of resources involved in redesigning the database. All to create separate skills for a ship class that wasn't really broken....

No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

The really funny thing about this thread is, no one is considering the amount of resources involved in redesigning the database. All to create separate skills for a ship class that wasn't really broken....

No. The entire IDEA that they should remove the generic battlecruiser and destroyer skills in favor of more race specific training is abhorrent and short sited.

I clicked unsub four times

At present I can fly Minmatar and Gallentte BC's and soon the Gall Command ships. With the new racial skills being put in will it mean I will have to retrain them (Gallentte race) or do I get skillpoints added for the skills I dont have after the patch ?

As they have said over and over (and over) again in the blog and comment thread: if you can fly it before the patch, you can fly it after.

Buy the old non racial destroyer and battlecruiser skillbooks and keep as collectors items. I know I will.

So from what I understand, in order to "exploit" this, all you need to get is BC to 5 and you will be able to fly every T1 frigate/destroyer/cruise/BC?
Or for that to happen you need to get BS skills to 1 for all races, and you than you get all T1 ships frigate to BC?

So from what I understand, in order to "exploit" this, all you need to get is BC to 5 and you will be able to fly every T1 frigate/destroyer/cruise/BC?
Or for that to happen you need to get BS skills to 1 for all races, and you than you get all T1 ships frigate to BC?

As they have said over and over (and over) again in the blog and comment thread: if you can fly it before the patch, you can fly it after.

So from what I understand, in order to "exploit" this, all you need to get is BC to 5 and you will be able to fly every T1 frigate/destroyer/cruise/BC?
Or for that to happen you need to get BS skills to 1 for all races, and you than you get all T1 ships frigate to BC?

You need frigate IV for cruisers Tippia, finally caught you on a mistake.

Is having generic BC and Destroyer skills really that much of a problem that they are going all these lengths to 'fix' it?

Sounds like they are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Just leave the skills as they are.

Sure it might have been the better way to design it from the first place, but at this point the solution is more complicated than the problem.

Is having generic BC and Destroyer skills really that much of a problem that they are going all these lengths to 'fix' it?

Yes. BCs in particular unlock an ungodly amount of ships, a large portion of which sit in the Gǣmost popularGǥ category. Fixing that isn't really Gǣgoing to this lengthGǥ because it's a very simple and easy fix. The issue is rather with the weird upset it has causedGǪ

GǪbut much of that is obviously due to people not reading up on what they're going to do and (still, weeks later) getting upset with something they've explicitly say isn't going to happen. A few others think it's unfair that some players will get much more expensive clones, and that at least shows they've understood what's happening, but the complaint is still odd.

Yes. BCs in particular unlock an ungodly amount of ships, a large portion of which sit in the Gǣmost popularGǥ category. Fixing that isn't really Gǣgoing to this lengthGǥ because it's a very simple and easy fix. The issue is rather with the weird upset it has causedGǪ

GǪbut much of that is obviously due to people not reading up on what they're going to do and (still, weeks later) getting upset with something they've explicitly say isn't going to happen. A few others think it's unfair that some players will get much more expensive clones, and that at least shows they've understood what's happening, but the complaint is still odd.

However; since we've seen a mere wisp of actual ship changes aside from the hybrid buff and the few related ship tweaks therein, I think it's completely fair for the populace to wonder why the skill progression paradigm shift comes first. It would make a whole lot more sense and be much less alarming if the t1 frig/dessie/cruiser lineup were in a better place.

I just hope that when they say reimbursement they mean those of us with BC5 simply get each racial BC at 5 once implemented.

That's pretty much exactly what they've said.

Because it's a decision between having it be a bit worse before it gets a lot better or having it get better before it gets a lot worse.

The reason they're doing this is not just to GÇ£prettifyGÇ¥ the skill tree, but also to allow the skills themselves to be better balanced in terms of what they offer and build a better platform upon which to balance the ships GÇö the latter needs to happen before new ships are released and before it's meaningful to do a balance pass on the ships that exist (since the point of this change is to set up for a balance pass anyway GÇö doing it before just means doing it twice, with the first being a bit of wasted effort).

Doing this change after would just make it feel like a much bigger nerf because these newly balanced ships that people have had a reawakened interest in will suddenly become more expensive / slower to train / whathaveyou. Just in terms of pure whinger psychology, it's better to do this first and then leave on the upbeat note of a balance pass than doing it the other way around.

Bah... couldn't care less.

They should just delete the removed skills and reimburse the skillpoints and skillbooks from those.
After that people can spend the point to what ever they like. Obviously it is impossible to fly all faction BC's with the amount of points reimbursed, but that will be absolutely same for everyone. If you had trained some skill to 5, you get more skillpoints back than player who had trained some skill only to 4 ... and yes - you can put all those skillpoints even to mining upgrades skill if u please to do so.

Life is choices - this is an easy one.

If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.

Well it's not like they haven't been given enough warning to errr maybe train that skill to 5 before the change happens?

There are only two "fair" ways (in my eyes) to handle this.

1) Simply refund the SP, to be reallocated by players whom had the skill trained or ....

2) Give everyone (new accounts included) 4.5M+ SPs. (Whatever BC V & Dessy V x 4 is)

Given option 1, _everyone_ is at the same disadvantage.
Given option 2, _everyone_ is at the same advantage.

Edit:

Personally, I'd pick option 1 even if it means taking a hit.

Option 1, won't happen as they've already said if you could fly something before you will still be able to fly it.

Option 2, most people like free sp but then it would be just a sweetener if that sp can be used on any skill and it would have to be because if it wasn't, it would still be unfair to some players. I don't think free sp is the way to go.

As they have said over and over (and over) again in the blog and comment thread: if you can fly it before the patch, you can fly it after.