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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.25 04:33:00 -
[1]
Why are Learning skills in the game?
- A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
- A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game?
- A throttle for fun?
- CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking?
or is it
- A terrible terrible mistake?
I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss.
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Brachis
Eve Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.05.25 07:05:00 -
[2]
I'd love to see learning skills balanced out by removing them entirely, and giving all players the effects of having each and every learning skill at level 5. This could either be done by removing the skills and their bonuses, and replacing them with a global stat boost or by removing the skills and their bonuses, and scaling skillpoint accumulation globally to match it (And make it as though everyone effectively had each learning skill at level 10 invisibly).
Why this is good for both new players and old players:
All players have the benefit of an increased global skillpoint gain, which speeds up the process of getting things in general. New players benefit the most from this because it will greatly help with accelerating them into a capable position of matching players who have been around for many months or years longer than they have.
And, of course, old players benefit as well, because by simply improving skillpoint gain globally, you don't actually invalidate the time and resources that those players spent in the learning skills. They have the advantage of having had the faster skillpoint accumulation rate for however long they've had the learning skills.
Learning skills WERE a mistake, and it needs to be corrected.
"I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor." |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216 San Matari.
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Posted - 2008.05.25 09:36:00 -
[3]
lol
San Matari Official forums |
Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.25 16:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Brachis Edit: This thread should really be in Assebly Hall, not Jita Park.
Ah, well, you do it.
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Sariyah
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:51:00 -
[5]
Yep learning skills seem a terrible thing. I had a friend starting Eve about a year ago and he was actually playing another mmo (wow, for that matter) for months while training the learning skills (he did the occasional lvl1/2 missions but couldn't go above those). So yeah, it indeed is really painful and it almost seems like it's some kind of tax we pay to CCP for those months when we barely play. Yep a new can do many things as well but not too many and you reach your limits quite fast and get bored without useful skills.
Or remove them for good and lower the training multipliers. But then I demand a stat resetting option to get rid of my highest stat, charisma, even if it takes training time or $$ :)
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RoCkEt X
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.26 12:41:00 -
[6]
If you remove learning skills i want my sp compensated - as will many other players. CCP would have to go thru every player and have them select skills to be modified, with CCP's massive client-base - this would be impractical.
i trained my learning skills to make my char train faster, if i did it - you should have to aswell...
would also point out that learning skills are optional, and you train them to whatever level you feel worth it, which is good.
WHEN I TRAINED MY LEARNING SKILLS YOU NEEDED BASIC LEARNING SKILLS TO 5 TO TRAIN ADVANCED.
so stop whining, new guys these days have it much easier than we did.
Joe Failbreaker (sorry... the guys said i had to), your ignorance is as amazing as it was when we removed you from our alliance. MOST of eve feels learning skills are a valuable part of this game - delayed satisfaction is part of eve, i hope it remains this way for years to come.
-RoCkEt X
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:57:00 -
[7]
"delayed satisfaction is part of eve, i hope it remains this way for years to come."
This is pure idiocy in the context of skill training. What possible benefit is there to delayed satisfaction? As someone who has trained all the learning skills, before the prequisites for the advanced ones were lowered, i believe them to have added nothing of value to the game experience. To force others, and especially newer players, to endure such a lengthy timesink, in order to be able to compete is just selfish and short sighted.
People should be encouraged to enjoy the fun and interesting parts of the game right from the outset. A system which all but requires a certain level of learning skills in order to even begin the process of competeing with the established player base is, in my opinion, flawed. Remove the skills.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.26 19:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: RoCkEt X a. A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
I don't think this is a good enough reason. Certainly not from the point of view of CCP, a company that wants to attract new players to its game.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.26 21:15:00 -
[9]
Linkage No point in posting the same thing all over again.
1|2|3|4|5 |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:04:00 -
[10]
You do realize that if you get rid of learning skills, you'll train everything else slower.
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:09:00 -
[11]
.....whooooooosh....
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:25:00 -
[12]
As requested, I cross-posted this in the other CSM forum, and then was told that there was already a thread there. Y'all now have three threads in which to agree with me.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.27 00:41:00 -
[13]
People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players, or would you delete a few million skillpoints from the older players because they never should have had those attribute bonuses? What about existing players who never fully trained learning, or who missed out on the full benefits because they waited for a few months/years before they got around to the learning skills? Are they going to have their total SP increased to compensate for the skillplan choices they made?
You can argue that learning skills were a terrible idea and should never have been introduced, or that in a hypothetical EVE 2 game they shouldn't be made available, but winding the clock back on the existing game at this stage causes more problems than it solves. -----------
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Comander Brenni
The Funhouse
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Posted - 2008.05.27 04:44:00 -
[14]
The learnig skills are optional, you choose to train then if you think this vill be benefitial. learning skills shoud be as they were basic to lvl 5 before you soud be able to train the "advanced" learning skills. and what happaned to the real advanced learning skills CCP? the ones that shoud have a 5 x ore even a 8 x time multiplyer? I woud love the possebillety to be able to fly implantless and stil have my +15 to a stat.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.27 05:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players
I don't think I said that. CCP should just pick a rate somewhere about the average currently enjoyed (+6 or +7 attribute effect) so everybody trains fairly quickly.
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RoCkEt X
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.27 11:43:00 -
[16]
in the context of skills as with everywhere else, its fine to have delayed rewards.
i.e.
invest time in learning skills - train everything else faster.
the whole point in learning skills is that YOU can choose to what level they are worth training, its the same with every other skill in eve. like 'is the lvl 5 for warhead upgrades worth 2% extra damage for 20 days of training?' if the answer is no - then you dont train it, if its yes - then you do.
learning skills also act as a buffer, otherwise people would get into larger ships when they were still very new, so they know less of the game and will lose them, although it takes time its a built in safety measure.
people would be more likely to leave eve if they got killed in bigger ships every day because they did not know enough about eve to keep them alive than if they have to spend a few weeks training learning skills and slowly learning the essential bits
Quote: I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills.
this is clearly not true.
not only that but IF you get rid of learning skills, there is no PRACTICAL way to reimburse the people who lose out.
THE CHOICES YOU MAKE IN EVE DETERMINE YOUR SUCCESS AS A PLAYER, LEARNING SKILLS ARE ONE OF THOSE CHOICES
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Slistine Death
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.27 14:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Slistine Death on 27/05/2008 14:54:16
Originally by: RoCkEt X Joe Failbreaker (sorry... the guys said i had to), your ignorance is as amazing as it was when we removed you from our alliance.
/signed to Rocket's comment
Learning skills suck, but they are a good training buffer for new players and allow you to specialize your character. Just because you can't use evemon, be little patient, and read more about how to play the game doesn't mean the rest of eve wants to hear you whine about your failures.
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Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.05.27 17:55:00 -
[18]
The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.
Skill training in EVE is one of the things that separates it from other online games and makes EVE better than other games. In those other games you acquire XP during actual play and use it to boost your skills. EVE's system works for those that don't want to run macro's 24/7 or sit on their duffs for 10 hours every day playing just to acquire XP.
Windjammer
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Die Warzau
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Posted - 2008.05.28 19:22:00 -
[19]
Quote: By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage.
False analogy IMHO. It would be silly to train a trade skill if you didn't intend to trade. However, every EVE player intends to train skills, forever, for the duration of his/her EVE career (one would hope!). Not training learning skills is therefore de facto a wrong decision, always. No other skill or group of skills is always wrong not to train.
The existence of learning skills is just a test of how quickly you figure out how to download EveMon and nothing else. I also find it telling that most of Joe's dissenters seem to have had in-game run ins with him (and therefore very likely ulterior motives for disagreeing with him).
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Windjammer
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Posted - 2008.05.28 22:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Die Warzau
Quote: By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage.
False analogy IMHO. It would be silly to train a trade skill if you didn't intend to trade. However, every EVE player intends to train skills, forever, for the duration of his/her EVE career (one would hope!). Not training learning skills is therefore de facto a wrong decision, always. No other skill or group of skills is always wrong not to train.
The existence of learning skills is just a test of how quickly you figure out how to download EveMon and nothing else. I also find it telling that most of Joe's dissenters seem to have had in-game run ins with him (and therefore very likely ulterior motives for disagreeing with him).
The analogy only seems false because you don't extend it to its completion. Your logic is firm for as far as it goes. However, what you're not taking into account is that a large number of people do not train learning skills or at least do not do so right away. I've run into many pilots who feel that it's a waste of time and prefer to go directly to whatever they wish to pursue. Most of these seem to be PvP oriented pilots.
Thus training a learning skill becomes a strategic decision. One something like Eve-Mon can't help you with. Are you better served to train learning skills to completion first or are you going to get to where you want to go faster by training gunnery, etc, first and worrying about learning skills later? Later when you might want to have them to tackle some of the really long training times.
Remember, it takes a long time to train learning skills. Even with the faster training those skills give you, it takes a long time to recover the time lost while training them. Most of the early skills we train are so short that maxed learning skills don't give you any kind of significant advantage.
Finally, for the record, I've never had a "run in" with Joe in game or to the best of my knowledge in the forums.
Regards, Windjammer
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Sentinel x
Short Attention Span Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:24:00 -
[21]
I smell a noob wanting the easy way out.
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Cilvius Sanctus
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Scatim Helicon People have been gaining SP at an accelerated rate because of them for years now, are you saying that the accelerated learning times should be denied to new players
I don't think I said that. CCP should just pick a rate somewhere about the average currently enjoyed (+6 or +7 attribute effect) so everybody trains fairly quickly.
So you want to make everybody train everything at the same rate (before implants)? Why not just make every player equal in this game. Garbage.
You train the skills that you want to train to gain an advantage over the players that haven't trained those skills (be it at all or to the same level as you). If I have Battleship 4 and you only have it to 2, my battleship gets more of a bonus than yours. Should we fix this as well so that we all get the same bonus regardless of whether or not you have Battleship 1 or Battleship 5?
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Rauleff Xerxes
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Posted - 2008.05.29 03:22:00 -
[23]
sniff sniff, I smell fail.
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Laae Aenus
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:57:00 -
[24]
Meh, the problem is, whenever someones mentions learning skill everyone assumes it has to be to lvl5 for basic skills, and level 4 for adv. skills. To be honest, all those people who say: "I had a friend and he was doing training skills for the first two months..."
Sorry to say, but that is rather stupid. Everyone knows that the skills you'll be messing with in the first few months are usually (1) - (3) and shouldn't be taking too long anyway. When you get up to the need to get a lot of skills to lvl4 and most of those skills are above (3), that's where you start bothering with adv. skills. My point being is that if learning skills ruin your fun, you're really not doing it correctly. Ok, sure, you might save a few days... but then again, if you actually do something in the meantime, you can probably get +3/+4 implants faster. I don't have a full set of lvl5/4 skills, but I'm considering it only now, because I'm training quite a few lvl5s. I think learning skills should remain the way they are.
OP does fail on all points, since he treats learning skills as 'this is what you have to do for the first two months', which is clearly not the case, not even close. |
Evil Simian
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:50:00 -
[25]
Getting all the learning skills to 4/5 in the first two months is just silly. Yeah, get them up as soon as possible but don't do them all back to back. Get the small guns\frig stuff you want then go for a level in focus or some such, spread it out, mix in the skills that get you stuff etc.
I think to get all skills to level 5 is something like 20,000 days and with all basic learning skills at 5 and the advanced ones at 4 that drops by 8 or 9 thousand days.
I know that's an over the top example but given they have that much effect, leave them in.
The advanced ones were brought in later right? Have the basic ones always been in the game? I can completely understand why they were brought in given how long things take in this game.
Deal with it, there's no decent way to remove them and please the majority.
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Devon Vorberg
Frog Morton Industries YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 13:05:00 -
[26]
Learning skills add a level of choice to the game that I think only makes the experience richer. Not all games are a race to the top of a skilltree, and EVE definitely gives you options. Next thing you know, people like this are going to be arguing that everyone should have all attributes at 20 automatically!
I have just spent the last year deployed to Iraq, where I cannot even log in to play EVE. I have a family member change my skills when he is able, and when he can't, I just lose training time. But I take what I can get. If this puts me "behind the curve" as far as skills go, so be it. At least I'm able to interact with EVE a little. And no, my learning skills aren't all maxed yet. (close, but not all)
Not to be insensitive, but if you have such a problem with learning skills, that tells me you haven't finished training them yet. Suck it up, put in the time, and you'll never have to worry about them again.
Lastly, as I have put in the time and trianed up all my skills, I can still promise you that I pretty much suck in combat. Call it bad luck, I dunno. But I know plenty of guys flying T1 ships with starting skills who will stomp older players like myself. It's not all what's on your character sheet... some of it is real skill. (and a LOT of luck and friends!)
Just my 2isk.
Devon Vorberg
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Athre
The HIgher Standard
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Posted - 2008.05.29 14:18:00 -
[27]
leave them alone.
What gives you the right to say newcommers are better than vets? thats what you are saying here "no learning skills". When we all signed up it was known that if you were planning on playing less than 1 year, dont go passed learning 4. Now there are advanced learning skills and that 64 day Battleship 5 skill only takes about 20 days. Worth the learning skill time no?
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Anisa Schardl
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Posted - 2008.05.29 14:38:00 -
[28]
I'm a noob. I've got about 2.5 weeks left to finish 5/4 learning. It's mind numbingly boring. And I think they should NOT be taken out.
Why? Because they offer you a choice as to how you want to develop your character, just like the rest of the skills do. They're not mandatory in any way, which can be clearly seen by rooting around people's skill readouts. A lot of people haven't trained much into learning. Are they wrong to do this? No. They made a choice that they'd rather train something else, and it probably benefitted them by giving them the ability to do something they wanted faster.
Me personally, I trained 4/3 learning fairly quickly (within the first two weeks), then I trained a bunch of other stuff, got up into a battlecruiser and started running 3's. Once I had that going, I went back and am finishing up 5/4. For ME, it was more important to train into a decent ship so I could run good missions than it was to sit in my frigate for the first 6 weeks training nothing but learning. In the LONG run, I would have had more skill points, but it was well worth it to me to be able to have fun and play the game in a battlecruiser quickly than it was to maximize my theoretical skillpoints.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.05.29 16:08:00 -
[29]
if you feel that learning skills are an issue, you should be posting that in the "Assembly Hall" Forum, and see if there is major support for removal of them.
actually i believe there is allready such a thread in said forum.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2008.05.30 10:48:00 -
[30]
HAHAHA all these PPL *****ing about what a "waste of time it was maxing out the learning skills" back 3 plus years back have now evolved into PPL moaning about what an unfair advantage they are to the PPL who maxed them out!
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Taradis
The Imperial Assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.03 09:16:00 -
[31]
Quite frankly I like how it works thats one of the things that sets this MMO apart from the others. With games like WoW you have to constantly play for hrs on end to get anywhere in the game at least with this you set it and forget it plus if you took away the learning skills it would mess up the balance and it would be a huge deal to rebalance. So leave the damn learning skills alone thats such a noob thing to say imo... I for one will not support this...
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REALITY X
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Posted - 2008.06.04 09:48:00 -
[32]
I agree with the excellent points made by RoCkEt X and Windjammer.
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Nidda Coldbrew
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:22:00 -
[33]
Not another of these anti-learning skill threads Look, it's simple.....
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THEM.
If you don't like them, go skill something else. There's nothing making you do them. Whether you do or not I don't care, just stop with the chorus of whining noobs starting a thread a day on this topic. |
Von Chaos
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Posted - 2008.06.05 08:00:00 -
[34]
learning skills are a pain, and yes we all know it. but if ccp defaulted and gave every1 the same skills it would just turn into a numb slugfest. my character is a direct result of my choices of specialization and it gives depth to that character. Though a speed bump in training would be nice...
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EzSnake
Altruism. Malice.
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Posted - 2008.06.07 21:42:00 -
[35]
Newbs need to stop cryin and tryin to get special treatment!!!! We had to do it, and like stated above..we had to train to lvl5 on basics!!
Your already saving well over a month training and that isn't good enough for ya!! Next you'll cry that you should get BS lvl4 and a free tier2 BS w/ a new toon
____________________________________
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Walter Skinner
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Posted - 2008.06.08 08:15:00 -
[36]
I'm in total support. I don't want to spend time on training skills so nobody else should have the option to train them. Hell no.
(apologies for the sarcasm)
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GIGAR
Astrum Contract Services Group
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Posted - 2008.06.08 23:15:00 -
[37]
Removing learning is a neat idea. When it comes to reimbursing skillpoints, I think it could be done by setting all attributes to 10,000 (aka insta-wtfpwn-alot-of-sp-in-a-ruffy) until the amount of SP you had used on learning skills would be covered in whatever training you where training. (Carrier 5, lol) Or you could sum up all the SP and just leave it to the player to feed it to the skills. The disadvantage of the first is that it needs some anti-superlonglvl5skill protection. The pro is that the skilltraining is alredy a part of eve. For the summing up SP... Well, I can't see a serious disadvantage besides vets not noticing that they can get their SP reimbursed and will send in a pention. (aka human failage)
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BalZ
Nova-Tek
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Posted - 2008.06.09 14:27:00 -
[38]
Linkage.. anyone? then ofcourse remove all the other learning skills ________
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Lumen Atra
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:39:00 -
[39]
I am curious how anybody spends "months" on these, unless you get them all to V, of course. I had them all to IV shortly after my 21 day trial ended. And they were not the first things I trained.
They make complete sense in the realm of RP, which is an aspect of the game whether you like it or not. I am a newbie, and I think they should stay and are perfectly fine, and I am sure a good majority of other newbies feel the same.
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Soryr Cole
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Posted - 2008.06.12 19:38:00 -
[40]
I have to agree with Lumen, to get the basics to lvl 5 and the advanceds to lvl 4 didn't take me more than a month. It isn't a huge thing these days.
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Faekurias
Black Legion Command Red Dawn Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 19:58:00 -
[41]
No. Removing them would delete an entire layer of experience within eve.
Supreme Legion Commander of the Black Legion Fleet We're recruiting. Hitmeup ingame. |
Theo Samaritan
Eve-Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.12 20:13:00 -
[42]
To be honest, the argument to train all learning skills to 4/3 from the start is ******** at best.
I started by training the learning skills that directly effected my training time for my next ship/item - as given to me via evemon. Learning skills are only a burden if people arn't smart about informing the newbs about them. |
Darkerz
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Posted - 2008.07.12 11:36:00 -
[43]
removing them and giving players effects of all learned would cause all the old players who trained em to complain..
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Deldrac
Bat Country Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.12 14:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Theo Samaritan Learning skills are only a burden if people arn't smart about informing the newbs about them.
Problem is that they burden if handled wrong, but add nothing worthwhile to the game if handled well.
I'd happily give up the time I spent on learning skills to see them all set to 5 on existing and new characters. The community benefits from making the game fun for new players. It does not benefit from new players having to suck it up just because we did.
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TheMailman
GreenSwarm Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.12 19:52:00 -
[45]
Cry me couple of rifter sized tears and train what you want to train, its RPG... |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:02:00 -
[46]
Well, we got the benifits of learning skills already as older players. So the ones who will suffer is the newer players. If they are simply given learning skills or those attributes are automatically added in - then the mid-range players suffer.
So its not as simple as removing them.
Also, while it does help to train learning skills - it has been said time and time again that 'basic skills' should be trained first and then after you are in your thorax or caracal or whatever, then you can train learning skills while you practice your races and learn the game. . .it all seems perfectly fine to me.
Do I hate learning skills? yes. Should they have been introduced, no. Shoulld they be removed? No. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Icarus Starkiller
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Posted - 2008.07.22 16:19:00 -
[47]
Yes, well... if they remove the learning skills and just give everybody +10 to all stands and reduce training time by 20% then I want those months I spent training them up reimbursed by the handing over the number of SP I would normally accumulate in that time with my current stats (1.7m SP/MO on my strongest attrib pair).
I started when you were doing *good* to start out with 90k SP and frig/gunnery 4. Now newbs can start with almost 1m SP and get into a T2 frig w/ T2 guns almost right out of char gen. That's 2 months of early training before the learning skills alone, or 1 month once you've gotten the basic learning skills done.
So, new players are *already* boosted into the game by 3-6 months over where I began, and now you want to boost them another 3 months by eliminating the Learning timesink?
Cover the old schoolers who started before all of these newb buffs and I'll be fine with it. -
Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something. |
LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.07.25 00:59:00 -
[48]
Edited by: LetsDoThis on 25/07/2008 00:59:37 Stats shouldn't be in the game at all and no this is not a troll. Removed learning skills and implant stats and starting stats and, hell, the stat window.
Make every skill train as if you had 30 of each stat and learning 5, right out of the gate.
I am not kidding.
This would eliminate the learning skill grind.
This would make more people pvp because a lot of people buy implants for nothing but the boost to learning skills, and then that makes their pod more expensive and less likely to risk pvp.
This would eliminate the pidgeon-holing of sorts. Say you have excellent stats for training manufacturing and science, but now you want to try out flying combat ships and guns and all things pew pew. Your stats may be totally gimp for training those things. This would eliminate that pidgeon-holing.
Stats in eve = pure lose lose situation. Nothing good comes from it, lots of bad does though.
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.25 01:42:00 -
[49]
No. They are optional, and variation between different character's stats is a good thing. Also, it would be one hell of a job for CCP to compensate all the players for the sp.
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Dubh Sidhe
Sidhe Industries Aegis Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:45:00 -
[50]
Personally, I don't really care if they take the learning skills out or leave them in. Though taking them out would cause some major headaches and what not. What I would like to see though, is the time it takes to train from 4 to 5 reduced. 30+ days to train a skill is just plain silly. Knock 25-50% off that training time and, IMO, things would go much smoother. There would be a lot of gripes and whinging from older players, but whatever happens, SOMEONE is gunna complain.
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Sile Suirghiche
Minmatar Gaidhlig Technology
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dubh Sidhe What I would like to see though, is the time it takes to train from 4 to 5 reduced. 30+ days to train a skill is just plain silly. Knock 25-50% off that training time and, IMO, things would go much smoother.
With a name like that I'd love to agree with you... but I can't. I don't mind the 30 day skills, I don't even mind the 50+ day skills. It's just such a damn good feeling when you get the "Skill training completed" on one of those monsters! Personally I'd rather we bring back the old days when you needed level V in a skill to take the advanced skills which followed or to fly the advanced ships dependent upon it.
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Baaldor
Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:59:00 -
[52]
I don't remember exactly. But when the advanced learning skills were introduced, didn't you have to close out your basic skill before you could even start the advanced ones? And somewhere down the road CCP relaxed the requirements a bit to make it easier?
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Baaldor I don't remember exactly. But when the advanced learning skills were introduced, didn't you have to close out your basic skill before you could even start the advanced ones? And somewhere down the road CCP relaxed the requirements a bit to make it easier?
correct
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.05 15:03:00 -
[54]
I like Joe, but I like my Learning Skills mo'. Sorry, Joe, but that's a "no go" from this Schmo.
We're Recruiting! |
J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 20:34:00 -
[55]
Not supported. I think those who choose to train the learning skills should be rewarded and those who could care less shouldn't have to train them. There is no need to take them out, except to buff those who chose not to train them and now want the advantages provided.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 20:37:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cpt Striker "delayed satisfaction is part of eve, i hope it remains this way for years to come."
This is pure idiocy in the context of skill training. What possible benefit is there to delayed satisfaction? As someone who has trained all the learning skills, before the prequisites for the advanced ones were lowered, i believe them to have added nothing of value to the game experience. To force others, and especially newer players, to endure such a lengthy timesink, in order to be able to compete is just selfish and short sighted.
People should be encouraged to enjoy the fun and interesting parts of the game right from the outset. A system which all but requires a certain level of learning skills in order to even begin the process of competeing with the established player base is, in my opinion, flawed. Remove the skills.
Totally agreed, which is why all players should be given a permanent link into an ISK bank with unlimited funds...you know, so they can buy the best ships right off the bat and enjoy the fun from day one!
/sarcasm
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.09 23:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: RoCkEt X the whole point in learning skills is that YOU can choose to what level they are worth training, its the same with every other skill in eve. like 'is the lvl 5 for warhead upgrades worth 2% extra damage for 20 days of training?' if the answer is no - then you dont train it, if its yes - then you do.
That analogy is complete fail. Think for a second. How do you determine if a learning skill is worth training? Well, if you plan to play EVE indefinitely, then ALL of them are worth training to level 5 period. If you only plan to play EVE for a month or so and then quit, then they're not worth it at all. So what learning skills end up doing is making people decide how long they want to play the game from the very beginning! Before they've even gotten a chance to see if they like it! (and they certainly won't be liking it much after spending so long training learning skills) How does forcing people into a decision like that helpful? It just adds stress which is what people play games to AVOID.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.09 23:30:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Strill on 09/08/2008 23:32:39
Originally by: Von Chaos learning skills are a pain, and yes we all know it. but if ccp defaulted and gave every1 the same skills it would just turn into a numb slugfest. my character is a direct result of my choices of specialization and it gives depth to that character. Though a speed bump in training would be nice...
Fail. Just...fail.
You're not specializing by choosing which learning skills to get. You're gimping yourself by not getting them all. Specializing implies that you're choosing between things that are mutually exclusive. That is not the case with learning skills. Consider one person who goes for learning skills and another who goes for gunnery skills. The one that gets their learning skills up will be able to go for gunnery skills after finishing, and will eventually end up with MORE gunnery skills than the person who neglected learning. On top of that, the person who neglected learning will never be able to catch up. How is that specialization? The person who went for learning ended up getting more of everything! The fact is that if you plan to play for long enough, ALL the learning skills are worth getting. There are NO CONs to getting learning skills from the perspective of someone who wants to get maximum skill points. The cons for learning skills to the average player, however, are that it's boring to train them, and you have to play the game for a really long time before they pay off. So you make a game where the best decision is to do nothing for the first few months...What kind of game is that?! It's flat-out stupid to make a GAME, and then encourage players to NOT PLAY the game!
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.09 23:46:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Strill on 09/08/2008 23:47:08
Originally by: Nidda Coldbrew Not another of these anti-learning skill threads Look, it's simple.....
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THEM.
If you don't like them, go skill something else. There's nothing making you do them. Whether you do or not I don't care, just stop with the chorus of whining noobs starting a thread a day on this topic.
See that's the fallacy.
YOU DO HAVE TO DO THEM.
You have to choose between having fun, and having a good character. If I want to play eve for a while and have a good character, I should train all my learning skills to level 5 from the start. If I want to have fun, I should train up my ship and gunnery skills so I can go blow up some pirates. You're telling new players that if they want to have fun, they should quit eve fairly soon because they'll end up being left in the dust because they didn't train learning.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.09 23:59:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03
Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.
But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out?
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.10 04:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03
Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.
But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out?
It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge...
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.10 04:17:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Fahtim Meidires
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03
Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.
But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out?
It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge...
Lol? So then you're proposing that new players should remain ignorant of the fact that they're being punished so it won't bother them? C'mon that's just stupid. That's like saying it's ok for a noob to jump off a bridge so long as they remain blissfully ignorant of the consequences.
The fact is that training learning skills is ALWAYS the best strategy in the long run, and by "choosing" not to train learning skills, you're doing nothing but penalizing yourself. Of course a noob who learns that this is going to be upset. It's the system that causes the problem, not the noob's awareness of the system.
You might as well say we should destroy all documentation of the combat system's mechanics so that way people will be blissfully ignorant of how good or bad their weapons are, and we can all be happy using crummy fits and blaming our losses on luck.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.10 15:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Strill
Originally by: Fahtim Meidires
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 00:03:03
Originally by: Windjammer The OP's post is a failure from "a." to "e." of his points. Learning skills are like any other skill training in EVE. By training them you gain an advantage. Train gunnery, you have and advantage. Train a trade skill, you have an advantage. Train a learning skill, you have an advantage. His argument against learning skills is an argument against any kind of skill training. i.e. "Why should we have to wait? Why should we be at a disadvantage if we don't train a particular skill?" Such an argument is absurd and is the product of someone who wants everything handed to them on a platter without expending any effort.
But they're not like any other skill training in EVE. That's why there's so much controversy. Train gunnery, and you have an advantage. Train learning, and you have a learning AND gunnery advantage! The only time learning isn't the best decision is when you plan to quit soon and want to get one particular skill or set of skills by a certain date. That means that in order to decide whether learning skills are a good idea, you have to decide when you're going to quit EVE! Why is forcing people to set their quitting date a good thing? What does it add to the game? For someone who wants to decide whether they like EVE, it just discourages them and makes them likely to give up. They can train some combat skills and have fun, but they end up being penalized for it since they didn't spend that time training learning skills. Why are you penalizing new players for trying the game out?
It is the fault of older players that mandate the training of learning skills that newbies are turned off. Not the fault of the system itself. Players getting a feel for the game shouldn't bother with learning skills and if they are subjected by vets and listen to them they are being too impressionable rather than assessing the situation themselves. If a vet told you to jump off a bridge...
The fact is that training learning skills is ALWAYS the best strategy in the long run, and by "choosing" not to train learning skills, you're doing nothing but penalizing yourself. Of course a noob who learns that this is going to be upset. It's the system that causes the problem, not the noob's awareness of the system.
But it's not as simple yes train them or no don't train them. It is up to the player exactly how far they want to take their learning skills at different stages of their character's life.
Should they train them all at once? Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring? Should they wait until Frigate V to train up all of their perception and Engineering V for intelligence because most of the gains will be seen on these chunks of skills anyway?
It's an important sandbox feature that in essence gives players a chance to be proactive or procrastinate depending on their play style and personality.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.10 23:00:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 23:01:28
Quote: Should they train them all at once?
Yes. They get more points. Period. They are better off by training them all at once.
Quote: Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring?
And here you hit the nail on the head. Why have skills that are boring? None of the other skills are boring. Why is boredom even a factor in how much you as a player are rewarded, especially from the very beginning? It makes no sense from a game design perspective. If I'm a new player I want to jump into all the game's features, but then I find out that I lose out on the game's most important resource if I don't spend at least half a month boring myself out of my mind how does that hook me into the game?
Quote: Should they wait until Frigate V to train up all of their perception and Engineering V for intelligence because most of the gains will be seen on these chunks of skills anyway?
The longer they wait the more skill points they lose. I'm afraid I can't come up with any Boredom utility to Skill Point utility ratios, so I can't apply any economic ideas to it.
Quote: It's an important sandbox feature that in essence gives players a chance to be proactive or procrastinate depending on their play style and personality.
So you want the game to be "Work And Responsiblity Online"?
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Baaldor
Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.10 23:17:00 -
[65]
So Strill, All I have seen from you is whining. Have not seen one reasonable suggestion of any kind.
It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about and you are whining because its toooo hard.
No one is making you train shit. I did not train my learning skills till' at least a month or two in the game. At that point I made the decision to stay with the game. Then I started training the skills to help me along.
And at that time you had to level out at 5 before you could train the advanced set.
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Strill
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Posted - 2008.08.11 00:21:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Strill on 11/08/2008 00:23:03
Originally by: Baaldor So Strill, All I have seen from you is whining. Have not seen one reasonable suggestion of any kind.
I would think the most obvious solution would be to give everyone the equivalent of having rank 5 in all the learning skills, remove the learning skills themselves, and refund any skill points anyone has spent in the learning skills. Personally I'd think it would probably be better to give everyone a bit less than the equivalent of rank 5, but that would be unfair to the people who trained them to rank 5.
Quote: It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about and you are whining because its toooo hard.
I've already trained my learning skills to 5/4, and it was completely pointless that I would have to do that just to keep from being penalized. Even if I hadn't it's not like my idea could be implemented soon enough that I wouldn't still have to train them.
Quote: No one is making you train shit. I did not train my learning skills till' at least a month or two in the game. At that point I made the decision to stay with the game. Then I started training the skills to help me along.
The game is making you train them. If you don't you get penalized with fewer SP.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.11 00:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 10/08/2008 23:01:28
Quote: Should they train them all at once?
Yes. They get more points. Period. They are better off by training them all at once.
Only marginally compared to proper training. Take this example:
Skill plan for Imishra Na
1. Weapon Upgrades I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 2. Instant Recall I (30 minutes, 38 seconds) 3. Analytical Mind I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 4. Weapon Upgrades II (2 hours, 3 minutes, 25 seconds) 5. Instant Recall II (2 hours, 13 seconds) 6. Learning II (1 hour, 48 minutes, 46 seconds) 7. Weapon Upgrades III (11 hours, 6 minutes, 32 seconds) 8. Instant Recall III (10 hours, 3 minutes, 1 second) 9. Spatial Awareness III (9 hours, 10 minutes, 35 seconds) 10. Weapon Upgrades IV (2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes, 50 seconds) 11. Weapon Upgrades V (13 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes, 41 seconds)
Total time: 17 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes, 13 seconds
-or all in the beginning-
Skill plan for Imishra Na
1. Instant Recall I (30 minutes, 38 seconds) 2. Analytical Mind I (27 minutes, 13 seconds) 3. Instant Recall II (2 hours, 13 seconds) 4. Learning II (1 hour, 48 minutes, 46 seconds) 5. Instant Recall III (10 hours, 3 minutes, 1 second) 6. Spatial Awareness III (9 hours, 10 minutes, 35 seconds) 7. Weapon Upgrades I (23 minutes, 27 seconds) 8. Weapon Upgrades II (1 hour, 49 minutes, 14 seconds) 9. Weapon Upgrades III (10 hours, 17 minutes, 46 seconds) 10. Weapon Upgrades IV (2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes, 50 seconds) 11. Weapon Upgrades V (13 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes, 41 seconds)
Total time: 17 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes, 29 seconds
A difference of ONE HOUR when properly spread out, yet in the first instance where proper planning was used the player gets weapon upgrades II in the first 3 hours as opposed to blindly grinding through like he was told.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.11 01:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Strill
Quote: Should they space them out with their other skills so it's not so boring?
And here you hit the nail on the head. Why have skills that are boring? None of the other skills are boring.
ALL of the skills are boring. It's a timer. See my above post on how any player with half a brain in planning can make it less of a grind. New players who are capable of this simple task should be rewarded.
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padraig animal
Minmatar The Artisan Collective
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Posted - 2008.08.11 17:16:00 -
[69]
Nice example tho it depends on how your atributes are .
or every 1 thats diffrent ,there are some topics how to create the best balanced char .
For those who are already for a long time running know for themself if it was worth it or not.
Tho evenmon give you the option like showed above so it free you don't have to train them like said manny times in here.
If ccp removes them ok but doub't it coz 99% of the ppl who trained them want compensation than incl me
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JackBear
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:31:00 -
[70]
Removing learning skills is a FAIL idea in my opinion. Its all part of the game balance. Would you also suggest that CCCP do away with attribute implants? I believe attribute points help balance the game. Not every character should have the same because each character is created with a different purpose in mind.
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nartela
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Posted - 2008.08.14 19:01:00 -
[71]
i got my learning skills up and it took nothing from the game for me, i wouldnt train them up to 5 but ive got most of them at 3 and 4 the only 5 i have is the one hat take ten percent off. anyway what i did was wait until i had to get a skill to level 5 such as iteron v,, the time it took was 39 days by training my learning skills i managed to get it to 30. thats what you do its kinda like training multiple skills at once.
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.08.31 15:13:00 -
[72]
i'm what you would call a 'vet' as in veteran, yes, i tell the newer guys that yes, you should train learning skills.
first, get a cruiser, and medium sized weapons, and drones lvl 3-4 so u can use them. then, train learning skills to basic 4, advanced 3, and the learning skill it self to lvl 4.
then get a BC, and t2 tanking gear, and send ur weapon skills to level 3-4. train ur advanced learning skills to lvl 4 when this is done.
at this point your learning skills are trained to a satisfactory level. now you can either get t2 weapons, and improve your general skills (electronics, drones, ewar. etc.)
this means that you progress, so you dont get bored. you train faster, which makes you happier with the progression of your character.
its not the fastest way, but its the best way for someone who is new to start playing. i.e. - THEY DONT QUIT DUE TO BOREDOM. AND THEY DONT KICK THEMSELVES LATER FOR LEAVING IT TOO LONG.
i've worked with alot of my friends and corpmates, even used evemon to draw up skill plans to help them. they are happily training along, deviating from the plan if for example, they need more cpu to online the last launcher on thier drake, they'll take a few days out for another weapon upgrades/electronics level.
the system is fine. dont fix somethin that aint broken.
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Xultanis
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Posted - 2008.09.01 09:15:00 -
[73]
I don't even know why people are even suggesting this......wait yes I do. Its because they are ****ed that they aren't training as fast as everyone else because they don't want to put the time into training their learning skills so instead of having them do it they want everyone else to train just as fast as they do for fear of someone who started earlier getting further then they are. You all are just babies. Everything in EvE is a choice that you have to live with. Why do you want to change a game that finally does what most of the hardcore community wanted?? We have a choice to do what we want. This isn't noobfest USA. EvE isn't for the light hearted. Yes we have our occassion noob here and their but do you really want this game to turn into another WoW? Where instead of people having intellectual debates like we are here, we end up with "first" "noob" "flame war" "suck my ****" all that dumb nonsense.
Learning skills are not a waste of time nor were they a bad idea. If ccp thinks that then I feel bad for them. Like anything in this game if you want something you have to put the time into training it. Shit you don't even have to train the long skills since you just do it at the end of your subscription and just come back when its done. I hope they don't change that either because I don't think I would play this game if I had to train something for 2months.
If new players are complaining about it then they should just shut up. This game isn't for everyone and is especially not for the noobs that play WoW, however for some reason you want to turn it into that. I have put the time into training my Learning skills. If they are removed and everyone gets a base set of 5 then why? Why should people be allowed to recieve something that most people had to train a couple of months for?
You know what this is all probably about?
You probably look at your skills wishing them to go faster, but then when you look at your learning skills, you don't want to train those "just" to make something go faster. So its not a sense of it being mandatory, its a sense of just because you want something to go faster you "have to" train your learning skills and you just don't want to do that, but when you look at the pilots around you who have put in the time and are bragging about how much their skill train time went down, you get jealous and angry that you didn't do it from the start and you think about all the time you lost since then just because you didnt spend those 8 days training something.
There are those who decide to make a choice and then there are those who are indecisive. Just because you feel regret that you couldn't make a choice doesn't mean you need to punish those who did.
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Mara Devortex
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Posted - 2008.09.02 15:08:00 -
[74]
IMHO Eve is about the choices we make and the consequences of those choices..learning skills are just another facet of those choices...What makes Eve so Enjoyable as an MMORPG is its Depth and variety of choices ..ie skills etc. Learning skills are not compulsory..they are not required to learn other skills (LOL except for other learning skills) but they do present a set of choices that can affect the choices you make later...all the more reason to love em!!!!!!
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jaybo34
Caldari Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 11:31:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Why are Learning skills in the game?
- A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
- A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game?
- A throttle for fun?
- CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking?
or is it
- A terrible terrible mistake?
I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss.
Are you referring to just learning skills as in clarity ect , or are you talking about all skills in general like gunnery electronis engineering ect.
If you are talking about all skills I;m afraid its a really stupid idea. skills are fine the way they are. though skill ques would be nice.
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Mediastinum
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:35:00 -
[76]
Keep 'em in the game! They help weed out the "ADHD" crowd.
------------------------------------------------ When you pay for my playtime, you can dictate to me what my opinion should or should not be, until then move along |
Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.09.06 03:22:00 -
[77]
Heres a new suggestion
Why not make attributes contribute to actual ingame performance of the player?
For example Every point into willpower adds o.5% more damage to all weapon systems used (so that be about 10-15% max)
Every point of charisma adds o.5% standings gains or tax/fee reduction
Every point of perception adds o.5% to scan resolution and targeting range
if you make all attributes tie into to somthing or even possible multiple somethings it would become an incintive to train learning skills to the max. The bonus should however be minute, minute as possibly o.25% instead of 0.5%
New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister |
Drektar Ginjavitus
Hunters Imperiale Red Dawn Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.06 13:48:00 -
[78]
I disagree with the whole concept of this thread. I'm a fairly new player and haven't found having to train learning skills have limited me at all. You just need to use your imagination and find ways of playing that you can do, there is plenty of activities to choose from. If you don't like the way the game works, you don't have to play.
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Maverick 52
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:16:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Windjammer
The analogy only seems false because you don't extend it to its completion. Your logic is firm for as far as it goes. However, what you're not taking into account is that a large number of people do not train learning skills or at least do not do so right away. I've run into many pilots who feel that it's a waste of time and prefer to go directly to whatever they wish to pursue. Most of these seem to be PvP oriented pilots.
Thus training a learning skill becomes a strategic decision. One something like Eve-Mon can't help you with. Are you better served to train learning skills to completion first or are you going to get to where you want to go faster by training gunnery, etc, first and worrying about learning skills later? Later when you might want to have them to tackle some of the really long training times.
Remember, it takes a long time to train learning skills. Even with the faster training those skills give you, it takes a long time to recover the time lost while training them. Most of the early skills we train are so short that maxed learning skills don't give you any kind of significant advantage.
Finally, for the record, I've never had a "run in" with Joe in game or to the best of my knowledge in the forums.
Regards, Windjammer
Just for reference I'll provide a little eve "life story".
When I joined Eve, I wanted to mine. I did my thing in 1.0 during my trial period, learned how some stuff worked, etc etc. I thought I'd get rich flying to low sec to mine, so i did, and promptly got popped in the belts. The guys who were there were nice enough, I talked w/ them and I realized mining was boring versus the rush I just had in getting blown up. I joined their pirate corp and started to Yarr! in my first month of eve.
How does this have to do with learning skills? How do you think a 1 month old pirate training nothing but learn skills does? Crap. I trained the learning skills a few levels in, nothing special, but immediately started on getting that warp scramble, better gunnery skills, better tank skills. When your that new, training a basic skill from lvl1 to lvl 3 makes a HUGE difference(and heck, alot of basic skills you might not even have) and they take next to no time.
Instead of immediately training learning skills for over a month so later on in eve when I'm training rank 8 lvl 5 skills I can do it faster, I trained my basic "survival" skills so that I wouldn't get WTFBBQ'd all day long.
How has this affected me a year into eve? I consider, and the pilots around me consider me to be a good PVP pilot. I can fly 2 races of ships, T2 ships up to cruiser, and T2 fit my ships w/ good support skills. I've worked on my learning skills since that first month, here and there training them up. Being able to fly worthwhile ships has allowed me to make ISK and buy implants to make up for my learning skills. As I begin to train longer skills, I see the importance of those learning skills, and will likely be training them higher.
In short, learning skills aren't a mistake. They are there for you to grind away immediately if you choose to, they will be there later on if you choose to get some immediate pew pew on. Is it to your advantage to train them? YES! Is it to your advantage to train gunnery skills? OF COURSE! However, the level at which you train them, and when is entirely up to you. If I were a newbie flying around in drone boats, I surely would be concentrating on my drone skills while gunnery sat on the back burner. Remember, if you have every learning skill to level 5, you have the learning advantage against an opponent who doesn't. So at first that opponent may kick your butt, but later you may be able to kick his because you got to that new item/ship faster.
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Drekor Silverfang
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Posted - 2008.09.10 18:09:00 -
[80]
Why not start newbies out with 4 in basics and 3 in advanced. If they want to go higher they can other wise they still have a decent boost to their stats to start with.
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Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.10 18:25:00 -
[81]
Skills starting out higher, eliminate learning skills?
You don't have to train learning skills!
If you don't however, expect other skills to take a little longer. I trained all learning to lvl 5 before training anything else. I was thinking of playing Eve long-term (payback for doing all learning long), rather than looking for an instant character to play with. I could have gone to a number of other online games for such a thing....personally, I find such games a little tedious and get bored with them.
I'm currently training Titan skill....do you hear me complaining about the 54 day training time?
Arithron
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Maulos
Caldari the united
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Posted - 2008.09.11 12:32:00 -
[82]
I for the removal or learning skill.
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Peter Powers
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 12:44:00 -
[83]
when i started playing eve you where pretty low on skillpoints / trained skills, and it took me quite a while to get to where todays starters start.
in my opinion that change was allready not the best idea. this game has a very high learning curve and having a lot of skills right from the start doesnt make people think about what their doing.
Today you see alot (more) of noobs flying in battleships or battle cruisers in lowsec, while they dont even know enough about the game mechanics. those pilots get angry & frustrated when you shoot 'em, and they dont do the most important thing for eve: Learn your Game. This is alot more important then having a quick start skill-wise.
Removing learnings would remove another learn-your-game timebuffer giving a even faster start skillwise, but will still not help 'em to learn why they should not put a 100mn AB, an xlarge shieldbooster, a few smarbombs, a plate and some cpu enhancer on a Phoenix.
So totaly wrong idea. instead of thinking how you can get 'em a faster skillwise start, you should look into finding ways to interest those guys for training, to teach 'em and to use the given time to have pilots that know what their doing at the end.
I love CCP Morpheus<3 xXx CCP Morpheus xXx <3
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deadEd
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Posted - 2008.09.14 13:22:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Nova Fox Heres a new suggestion
Why not make attributes contribute to actual ingame performance of the player?
Awful idea. One of the nicest parts of Eve is that your attributes don't really control you. Started off as PvE but want to go into PvP? No problem! Might take you a bit more time than someone who went pure Per/Wil, but you'll get there and be just as effective. Shoehorning people into certain roles because of their stats is way too much like every other generic MMORPG out there.
Honestly, I like where things stand with attributes and learning skills. If you really want to get into the whole min/maxing thing to get the absolute optimal training times, then yeah you can do the learning skills thing. If you don't, that's cool too. If you have good SP in Gunnery, it won't be any more or less effective just because you didn't bother with learning skills beforehand.
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Jay See
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Posted - 2008.09.14 23:43:00 -
[85]
not discussing if we have to remove em skills or not but i keep reading: there is no practical ways to do so here is a practical way
let's say we've find a way to enhance the pod interface and it nows give a perma +5 or +7 or +10 (weee!) to all attributes remove the learning skills from the learning tree allow each existing char to self-reassign the number of SP he had in the learning speciality (like if you had 1,2M you can right-click > instant train the skills you want till you're spend it all.)
maybe double the bonus of cyber learning implants: +2/+4/+6/+8/+10 instead of the actual +1/+2/+3... to keep significant differences between players
this would lead to a general decrease in skill-training time, meaning you'd have to train for ONLY 12 YEARS to get all skills to V...
well ccp if you don't like my idea, you can as well x2 everyone's sp/hour ! much appreciated! thanks! (coz i don't want to die before i flew all eve ships mm'okay ?)
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.16 20:09:00 -
[86]
Really, really simple. CCP gets a full month of players paying without any drag on their systems from players actually playing.
Unfortunately, this also drives off many potential new players.
I have introduced several friends to this game. Even with me providing a lot of stuff at the beginning for free, they indicated they were exceedingly frustrated with the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character.
To clarify, they have no problem waiting for bigger ships, they have a problem with having nothing for them to do for a week to a month in the game.
Give everyone all the learning skills trained to 5. Most people have lvl 4 on their advanced skills, so, I for one wouldn't be bothered by the loss of a month of training (to skilling up the initial learning skills). It would be like a badge for old players - "yup, I remember when you had to do the learning skills. Didn't that suck?"
Get rid of them. Give everyone the attributes of fully-trained learning skills. Put it to a vote.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.16 20:30:00 -
[87]
If you want newbs to learn the game, improve the actual tutorial. Newbs first experience with PVP is wandering blindly into a gank. Insta-pop style. Half the time, they don't even know what happened until it happens to them again. That was what happened to me, I have since learned about smartbombs.
Provide newbs with a PVP arena. They HAVE to die at least once. Let them experiment with the different fittings. The vast majority of this game revolves around PVP. Provide an arena for 1-v-1 and 3-v-3 combat for players based on their total SP. Don't shy away from it.
Show people "this is the fun part of the game, whether it be successfully avoiding pvp or blowing up someone else's ship, this is what Eve-Online is all about!"
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.09.16 20:42:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Bagehi ...the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character.
Had to? HAD to??!?
Were they so into min-maxing their character that they weren't prepared to train for the couple of extra hours it would take to get
a) basic piloting skills to allow them to do things in the game and THEN... b) make a start on learning skills
You are advising these new players wrongly. Instead of saying "This is a cool game, but before you can play you 'have to' put in a month of doing really boring stuff" try saying instead "This is a really cool game, here's a little frigate, train skill a and skill b for a couple of hours and go have some fun shooting things!"
Seriously.
You don't NEED to get every SP you can out of your character from minute 1. Training skills are for the long term. If someone wants to have some short term fun when they first start the game, for crying out loud, let them have it. When they get into EVE enough to want to squeeze those SPs, THEN introduce the things... you never know, they might even be happy to learn that they can speed up their training times, and be happy to do them!
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Dogfighter
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Posted - 2008.09.17 22:05:00 -
[89]
/signed
I hate learning skills, but I'm not stupid to stop training them.
An idea:
First set all old players' learning skills to lvl 5. New players start with all learning skills set to 5.
Second: for those players who already trained learning skills, give them some kind of SP wild cards which can be partially/totally consumed to finish the training of his/her next skills. This would also be a useful functionality for skill training time reimbursement petitions.
The amount of SP wild cards received depends on how much learning skill points were trained. I don't have a good idea for a formula yet, because when you start learning the learning skills, you do it very slowly, since your attributes are very low. I ask for suggestions on how to calculate these SP wild cards... Any idea?
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.18 16:00:00 -
[90]
I didn't tell them what to train. I simply gave them a better frigate, some weapons, and let them go. After a few days, the inevitable question arises, "how do I train faster?" I then explain the learning skills, evemon, and implants. And things go downhill from there.
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
Originally by: Bagehi ...the amount of time they had to wait before being able to actually use their character.
Had to? HAD to??!?
Were they so into min-maxing their character that they weren't prepared to train for the couple of extra hours it would take to get
a) basic piloting skills to allow them to do things in the game and THEN... b) make a start on learning skills
You are advising these new players wrongly. Instead of saying "This is a cool game, but before you can play you 'have to' put in a month of doing really boring stuff" try saying instead "This is a really cool game, here's a little frigate, train skill a and skill b for a couple of hours and go have some fun shooting things!"
Seriously.
You don't NEED to get every SP you can out of your character from minute 1. Training skills are for the long term. If someone wants to have some short term fun when they first start the game, for crying out loud, let them have it. When they get into EVE enough to want to squeeze those SPs, THEN introduce the things... you never know, they might even be happy to learn that they can speed up their training times, and be happy to do them!
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Judas Jones
Amarr Black Company
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:03:00 -
[91]
How many times must you people re-post the same crap over and over, Learning Skill's are not "forced" on people, it's a choice like implants, it has benefit's only if you invest time in it which applies to the whole of Eve so if you can't see the beneift of time investment then this is not the game for you.
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Eaiaden
Minmatar Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.23 11:32:00 -
[92]
Terrible idea, keep the learning skillz id say
Originally by: Sean Faust The Typhoon is an oddity. It is EXTREMELY versatile and can be fit just about any way you can imagine. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.09.23 12:25:00 -
[93]
did I post my idea here yet? just get rid of the advanced learning skills.
then replace +5 implants with +10 implants.
bam instead of waiting 5 months people will want to log in and make isk to incease their skill progession.
too crazy?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.09.23 12:26:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Judas Jones How many times must you people re-post the same crap over and over, Learning Skill's are not "forced" on people, it's a choice like implants, it has benefit's only if you invest time in it which applies to the whole of Eve so if you can't see the beneift of time investment then this is not the game for you.
funny thing a dev himself said it 1st. during the last alliance tournament, he stated that learning skills where the worst mistake eve ever made.
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Judas Jones
Amarr Black Company
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Posted - 2008.09.23 22:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Judas Jones How many times must you people re-post the same crap over and over, Learning Skill's are not "forced" on people, it's a choice like implants, it has benefit's only if you invest time in it which applies to the whole of Eve so if you can't see the beneift of time investment then this is not the game for you.
funny thing a dev himself said it 1st. during the last alliance tournament, he stated that learning skills where the worst mistake eve ever made.
and? Dev's got caught cheating last year, like there opinion counts for squat these day's, they have the vision of a blind man in a dark room with his head submereged in water.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.09.24 07:28:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Judas Jones and? Dev's got caught cheating last year, like there opinion counts for squat these day's, they have the vision of a blind man in a dark room with his head submereged in water.
As per the interview Noah Ward (chief dev) gave regarding the CSM Iceland meeting (the same one where he said that they wanted to see sweeping ideas coming through, not niggling little things), the impression I got was that he saw it as one of his main functions was squashing the sparkly & original ideas that new devs bring to the team, and giving them into the same jaded, elitist "I'm better than all of you so I could give a rat's bottom what you think" sort of person that he came accross as himself.
Personally I don't really care about the big ideas. EA holds no interest to me whatsoever, and from what I've seen of Ambulation so far I don't think I'm really going to care about that either... EVE is a game where details matter, fix the bl00dy details before adding a swathe of big new ideas. It worries me that in the latest newsletter (which I received yesterday, sorry to spoil the surprise if anyone hasn't had it yet), they boast about fixing 1000 bugs for EA, with the implication there were still a lot more to fix. When I read that I was horrified that there were even 1000 outstanding that they hadn't bothered to sort out, never mind that the true total is even higher. But what do I know - I've only been designing games (not on the computer) for 28 years so clearly I know jack about what makes good game design
Sorry for off-topic rant
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Artharas
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Posted - 2008.09.26 03:28:00 -
[97]
I have 5/4(and 3 adv. @ 5)
There is the beginning where a player is new(I'm speaking non-alt) he needs a bit of time to get his bearings. Having learning skills gives time for him to get to know the game before he gets confused by the variaty of things to do(I know my head was spinning when I started in 2003, even when I had my brother guiding me). This is even before we start talking about issues with macro miners and trialist exploitations opening up(having to many "Cannot be trained on trial" would surely annoy anyone valuating if he should play the game or not). So learning skills does serve a point(to some extend anyway).
On the other side, people say "It's your choice to train them", well sure it's your choice but you decrease your performance in the long run right away if you don't train them ASAP(and if starting now you're already 5 years behind which is hard enough to catch up to). Also I feel it makes the game even more confusing for a newbie to enter the world knowing little and being gimped by _a lot_ of training speed compared to someone who had a friend giving him heads up about learning skills. Learning skills aren't the same as any other skill since what you sacrifice with other skills by not training is efficiency of certain field or usability of certain module. What you sacrifice with learning skills is efficency to any field or usability to any module, that is until you have trained it. And in the end, I don't feel it's much of a character progression to decide _when_ you train something, it is rather when you're deciding _if_ you train something.
Mechanic that stands due to "We had to do it, suck it up", well that is one failed mechanic. Personally I'm all for removing the learning skills(and adding base attributes by +11 or so) and giving those trained the option to spend the amount of SP in skills of their choices*. Don't see CCP caring enough though to do any changes, so meh.
PS. Someone talked about implants adding attributes, I feel that is still character progression and spices the game up for all involved.
*Mind this would have to be done in a bit more complex manner since you might suck at fx Charisma and rule at memory/int so using the SP for Charisma primary skills would give you advantage since all the basics are mem/int and 2/5 are dependant on them.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:33:00 -
[98]
I agree that you're hurting the character in the long term by not training them, but you can certainly take a less focused approach than "omg! Got to train all these to level 5 instantly before I can do anything else!". After all, in 6 months' time will it really matter that the character took 2 hours longer to train Heavy Missiles than it otherwise would have done?
I don't believe that a new player would really have too many issues with how fast his skills train - certainly not so much he would quit because they were too slow. I didn't have an issue with it at all when I started. I gradually phased the higher levels of learning skills in with my other skills and it was not a drag to learn them at all. Yes sure, here I am 2 years down the line, probably a couple of days worse off than if I had learned them all immediately, but I've lost more training time than that just through forgetting/not being able to log in to change skills when they expire.
However, if you're that keen not to hurt the new player experience, boost a new player's skill point acquisition times by, say... 25%, reducing by 5% every week or two, and ensure that Aura has a section on skill training where she makes it clear that in order to maintain the skill point rate, certain skills need to be trained.
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SoftRevolution
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:45:00 -
[99]
/sign
Learning skills are an obscene waste of a new players time and nothing else.
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Naga Elohim
Amarr Forsaken Death Squad
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:11:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Naga Elohim on 26/09/2008 16:12:52
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Why are Learning skills in the game?
- A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
- A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game?
- A throttle for fun?
- CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking?
or is it
- A terrible terrible mistake?
I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss.
Because its much more acceptable to progress training than killing thousands of NPCs over....and over.....and over again
Learning skills is the best system ever and it shoudl not ever be taken out of the mechanics of the game.
0/10 for not giving good enough reasons.
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jason hill
Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.03 23:18:00 -
[101]
*sigh " im getting really miffed about these "mwaa" i cant be as good as the old players " threads .. mate just suck it up and do what we had to do learn the fkn skillz no im not a bought account ..ive been playing since 2003... if ya dont like it then find another game .. sorry but thats how i feel .in a nutshell if you want to suceed then persevere ..dont ask for it to be handed to you on a plate ..if you stick with it ..as i have done the eventually you to will be able to fly every ship .buying every ship is another matter though :0)...so basically stick withit an stop fkn moaning |
Rockstara
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Posted - 2008.10.05 18:04:00 -
[102]
I think if you check out evemon on some starting attributes a 4/3 approach gets you very far. This isn't a hard train time-wise and is best mixed in with other things. Its a game after all. If people will stop the whole...zomgg for pwnage train all teh learning skillz first to 5/4. That and the advanced learning skills are kind of expensive for a noob. They are measured in millions!
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Kenpachi Viktor
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:32:00 -
[103]
I had an old character, I maxed out all the learning skills, and I didn't see it as a long time. Now I have a new character, and if there were no learning skills it would take me twice as long to get to get to flying a BS with the necessary support skills.
The longer you are looking at playing the game for, the more learning skills you want, not less.
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WaiKin Beldar
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:03:00 -
[104]
Originally by: SoftRevolution /sign
Learning skills are an obscene waste of a new players time and nothing else.
I'm sooo sorry for not having 20000 more noobs who want to play EVE for a couple of months and, after checking how hard the learning curve really is, they abandon for WOW-like games.
Pathetic.
EVE is all about patience. Those who disagree with this game mechanics, please leave and stop bothering about changing what a lot of people before than you sweated very hard and is enjoying right now.
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Korovyov
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Posted - 2008.10.12 20:44:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Korovyov on 12/10/2008 20:44:50
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Why are Learning skills in the game?
- A kind of hazing - we all had to do it, so, so shall you?
- A "test" for newbies to prove their loyalty to the game?
- A throttle for fun?
- CCP's equivalent of skinning boars until you get to level 70 leatherworking?
or is it
- A terrible terrible mistake?
I think CCP knows learning skills were a mistake; the fact that they haven't removed them is probably because they fear a backlash from older players (see point A above). I urge CSM to use your soap box to tell CCP that we the players will support the removal of learning skills. Discuss.
Amen. I've trained through all the learning skills nearly three times now. At best (having basic implants right away, well-spread stats) it's 45 days of wasted game time. At worst it's the #1 reason why people burn out and there are so few that make it past the 1 year mark. I used to be of the opinion that they were a choice, didn't need them, and they should remain. I've since grown up from such childish non-thinking. Ultimately there are two things to consider for an MMO: growth and retention. Learning skills run counter to both.
Here's my solution: CCP should sell characters that come with all of the basic learning skills at lvl5 and the advanced learning skills at lvl4 for $30-$50 (the cost of the 1.5 wasted months of game time + additional markup price gouging). Now instead of blowing cash on Power of 2 and grinding *two* characters through 2 months of wasted time, they can spend it on one character and start playing instantly. They also are not advantaged over people who actually took the 3 months to train the advanced skills to lvl5. I know this is unfair to people who have low incomes, but it's the best crackpot solution I can invent given my knowledge of MMO bottom lines and the absolutely terrible game-killing solutions that actually get adopted (nerf nerf nerf! hahaha! it's all fixed now!).
I can tell you that CCP is not going to remove their precious money sink skills, though. They're so damn scared of modifying their skill tree (bonuses notwithstanding) that it's become the disorganized mess we know and love (hate?) today.
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Korovyov
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Posted - 2008.10.12 20:49:00 -
[106]
Originally by: WaiKin Beldar EVE is all about patience. Those who disagree with this game mechanics, please leave and stop bothering about changing what a lot of people before than you sweated very hard and is enjoying right now.
EVE is all about mining veldspar for 6 months, griefing veldspar miners for another 6, and then blobbing from then on.
And growth and retention are the key elements to the MMO business. Or did you forget that CCP is trying to make a living off you? It's in their interests to increase both.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.10.12 21:34:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Korovyov Once you've got that figured out (a total of 1 week learning right there, tops), you warp in, hit your win button, warp out. Repeat as necessary, replace ships as required.
If you're needing to replace ships at all then you badly need a better 'win button'. Either that or it's not quite as straightforward as you make out...
I'm mostly looking forward to the next CSM elections so this post can finally die the death it deserves. Only posting in it again now because it's already at the top of the forum so I'm not bumping it
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Korovyov
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Posted - 2008.10.12 22:29:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
Originally by: Korovyov Once you've got that figured out (a total of 1 week learning right there, tops), you warp in, hit your win button, warp out. Repeat as necessary, replace ships as required.
If you're needing to replace ships at all then you badly need a better 'win button'. Either that or it's not quite as straightforward as you make out...
I'm mostly looking forward to the next CSM elections so this post can finally die the death it deserves. Only posting in it again now because it's already at the top of the forum so I'm not bumping it
You eventually need to crawl out of the Ibis, (or, if you're the 50% that didn't roll Caldari like the rest of us, one of the other three ships). From there you will probably want to get something larger than a frigate, unless you love frigates.
Then there's also the portion of people that PvP in this game. I know it's shocking, but apparently people do it. Unless that PvP is waged only against people hopelessly outclassed and outnumbered, you're eventually going to lose a ship. Of course, we could all gather 'round the largest Veldspar we can find in our Hulks and sing Kumbaya.
And I was unaware the sole purpose of the CSM was censorship of unpatriotic thinking. Sounds a bit communist to me. Can I be a bluecap? I'd much enjoy going around throwing posters into gulags.
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WaiKin Beldar
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Posted - 2008.10.14 15:37:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Korovyov Edited by: Korovyov on 12/10/2008 21:15:18
EVE is all about mining veldspar for 6 months, griefing veldspar miners for another 6, and then blobbing from then on.
EDIT: And the only thing complicated about eve is fitting your ship. Once you've got that figured out (a total of 1 week learning right there, tops), you warp in, hit your win button, warp out. Repeat as necessary, replace ships as required.
Congratulations about your carebear abilities. 6 months mining veldspar...wow!
That's the last thing I would do in this game, but dude,if you had balls for mining 6 months in a row without shooting at yourself (apart the other stuff you mentioned) you're a ****ing winner
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Korovyov
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Posted - 2008.10.14 20:33:00 -
[110]
Originally by: WaiKin Beldar Congratulations about your carebear abilities. 6 months mining veldspar...wow!
That's the last thing I would do in this game, but dude,if you had balls for mining 6 months in a row without shooting at yourself (apart the other stuff you mentioned) you're a ****ing winner
Hyperbole and sarcasm. Of course, I really have to wonder sometimes, with all the mining barges in Empire...
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Ishbuanium
Black Skull Legion Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.14 23:29:00 -
[111]
Originally by: RoCkEt X
WHEN I TRAINED MY LEARNING SKILLS YOU NEEDED BASIC LEARNING SKILLS TO 5 TO TRAIN ADVANCED.
so stop whining, new guys these days have it much easier than we did.
QFT
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Malik Mantille
Minmatar Dark Sun Collective
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Posted - 2008.10.15 09:12:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Malik Mantille on 15/10/2008 09:13:25 I have very little to say, but it is the biggest stfu to you whining ninnies.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TRAIN LEARNING SKILLS...sorry for the cruise control. But you don't. When you train learnings, you don't ACTUALLY lose time, so to say. Lets pretend with hypothetical skills. You have lvl 2 in advanced learning ...logic for this example. And you have skill X at 4, to go to 5, it actually SAVES you time to get logic up one point. this may take 7 hour, but it saves you a total of 12...and so you actually have saved 5 hours. How this is a time sink, I do not know...What I do know is that I never straight trained any learning skill. I simply trained it when the numbers added up to me saving time by spending 8 hours training a skill to save 15 hours of training another...Its all how you look at it. Stop complaining, these skills have been here since day one, you've not, don't come in crying because we've already trained them and you've yet to. ------
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Ellariona
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Posted - 2008.10.16 16:36:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Ellariona on 16/10/2008 16:44:58
Originally by: Judas Jones How many times must you people re-post the same crap over and over, Learning Skill's are not "forced" on people, it's a choice like implants, it has benefit's only if you invest time in it which applies to the whole of Eve so if you can't see the beneift of time investment then this is not the game for you.
I second this! This is a machiavellan game... Try to make something of yourself in this game by any means, but stop whining! (I myself am a noob, this account has been laying dorment for a year)
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WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:47:00 -
[114]
Learning skills should remain in the game. If anything, there should be more of them. I don't support the OP's idea.
Where's the thumbs down button?
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.26 19:09:00 -
[115]
Pointless timesink that should be done away with. Eliminate learning skills and give everyone a 10 point stat buff.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.12.27 07:17:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Berious Pointless timesink that should be done away with. Eliminate learning skills and give everyone a 10 point stat buff.
Personally I'd prefer a 100% stat boost instead of a flat 10 points. This would make the starting attributes more significant. Because right now they are pretty much irrelevant apart from the extreme min-maxing crowd, considering the 3-10 start gets drowned out by a 15 flat boost from skills/implants.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.27 23:23:00 -
[117]
Learnings are not specialization, they are skills everyone does with no real gain at all.
Get them out of game, they're fricking horrible. Set their rank to 0, set their skill level to 5, and hide the whole skillgroup out of everyones character sheet. They probably put off more players from eve than any other "feature". ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Macita DePuerco
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Posted - 2008.12.28 02:05:00 -
[118]
Well I will admit that I personally hate the Learning skills not to mention that even after a year of game play I have still not trained 4 of them to lvl5.
Having said that and be it that I will get flamed by those that oppose my train of thought.
The Learning skills should stay in, there is no beneficial reason to remove the training skills other than giving new player a faster access to more equipment even compensating the Older players that did train all of there learning skill does nothing but to reward them by giving them access to more equipment faster.
All of witch I don't agree with, you should have the same requirements to progress in the game as I did or as the elder that HAD to train all his learning skills, no I have no interest in making it more fun for the newer player, if that makes less people sign up and play the game, nothing has changed then because the same type of person that didn't like the game a year ago wont like it any better now.
Could this be an incentive to attract or to keep players in the game more so than before, again I say no those people who find that making the decision to take on the learning skills or not as to much to have to deal with are the very same people that won't last in the game any way.
As much as I despise the learning skills I do honestly recognize that it keeps the young-lings or better said by another post here the ADHA crowd at bay, (BTW my daughter has ADHA so I don't want hear any flak about I actually live it).
The learning skills is not a game breaker, the learning skills or not broken what you people need to do honestly is all that energy that you have and motivation and drive on stupid **** like this how about directing the very same energy and intelligence at CCP and get them to fix all the damn bugs in the game then you know what, Learning skills be damned I be the first one to sign up and support your petition to remove them OK.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.29 22:29:00 -
[119]
For me there is 2 reasons to get rid of the learning skills. They are boring and they make the attributes insignificant.
I got all my learning skills trained to 5/4. I would not object to have them removed if the sp/attribute point was doubbled. It will make the game better even if it do not help me. . you'll never jump alone
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NSSQUAD
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Posted - 2008.12.30 00:59:00 -
[120]
all you guys are so dumb. I worked my way up everyone i started playing eve quite but now that i have trained the skills gridded for the isk i have a good well rounded guy
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Bat Boiko
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Posted - 2009.01.08 09:41:00 -
[121]
I want all MMOs grinding to dissapear! Let we all start at maxed skills/lvls! ...And, oh, almost forgot! Lets make MMOs offline games... |
sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.01.08 16:52:00 -
[122]
Well, I think the learning skill are the suxxorz as they are now, too much of a grind, specially for new players. However, were they to be completely removed I would demand my SP compensated yeah. And I don't see CCP doing that anytime soon :P |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:02:00 -
[123]
Stats in eve = No added value |
Roymundo
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:43:00 -
[124]
i now have nearly all my learning skills to level 5.
any attempt to remove them will lead to me demanding my several months sp training time back.
no support.
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Viciously anonymus
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Posted - 2009.01.09 18:55:00 -
[125]
They should stop seeding the skill book.
So eveyone who already use there time training it won't be lost |
Gadawan
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Posted - 2009.01.09 20:53:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Bat Boiko I want all MMOs grinding to dissapear! Let we all start at maxed skills/lvls! ...And, oh, almost forgot! Lets make MMOs offline games...
Does anyone else find the EVE forums the most childish place on the internet? Honestly I haven't seen this kind of 'haha i don't like this so you're a dummy' since I was in preschool and it's in EVERY SINGLE thread on these forums. Fcking pathetic.
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Ted Grayham
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.10 11:08:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Ted Grayham on 10/01/2009 11:11:32 Edited by: Ted Grayham on 10/01/2009 11:08:21 [...] nvm.
Anyway, I'm all for eliminating learning skills. It's an obvious flaw, and I'm sure CCP recognize that. It's the kind of thing that causes good people to not get through their first month, because it's imperative that you train them, and it's as unrewarding as hell. If there is something that everybody has to do that's boring and pointless, you might as well factor it out and eliminate it. |
Wacktopia
Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:47:00 -
[128]
They do appear a little pointless on the face of it -- why not just make the main skills a little longer to train? - I ask myself.
I must admit that I'm not actually bothered by them an the handy little EveMon tool tells you when it's a good time to train one so they are no real hinderance.
Like the original post says, it would be annoying to have new players in the game that instantly have learning skills of 5.
Im not sure its a problem CCP can or even need to solve. Its a mild annoyance at worst to me.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente Integrity.
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Posted - 2009.02.06 19:48:00 -
[129]
I can't really see why anybody sees a problem with learning skills. I'm glad that I've got my 13m sp, from which 2m are learning skills. I am now, after a few months of playing learning my charisma adv. skill to 4, maybe I'll take the rank1 to 5, dun know.
It's all my choice. Someone could chose not to make skills that high (all except charisma I got 5 rank 1 and 4 adv. skills). That was a pretty long time you know. But I didn't train them as a start, first I trained some small skills to be able to fly a cruiser and use some basic drones.
I know that now I'd love to have those learnings skills all at 5/5 but it was a choice.
If all noobs got 5/5 learning skills instantly... It would be a great hit for all other players. 2m, 3m sp in learnings would have to be transfered to other skills. At the same time, you'd have to give the older players all the sp that they would get if they had all skills at 5/5 from the beginning. Those are tons of data to process. And it's pretty pointless.
Learnings skills are sort of a basis of the entire system. You can also live without cybernetics skill, without implants, but it's GOOD to have it. Again, it's your choice that when you die you lose 70m or more in implant value. ------------------------
My Deviantart profile |
StarStryder
Zero-Hour
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Posted - 2009.02.07 14:28:00 -
[130]
Personally it bother me either way. I've done the training, it's in the past. That said, I can not see what the learning skills bring to game other than tedium.
Someone said earlier that all skill training is boring. Not true. Waiting for a ship skill to complete has a sense of anticipation, something that draws people in. The learning skills do nothing in this regard.
The only caveat is that if they are removed then anyone that has them trained needs to have the ability to reallocate the sp. |
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.07 23:07:00 -
[131]
NO |
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:30:00 -
[132]
you want to learn things faster? do learning skills,
think of it as university , people that just have high schoo(crap learning skills),take longer to do stuff.
too bad if you dont like learning skills. they add a flavor to the game
you idiots wont be satisfied till eve turns into wow for babies.
Please, jump into traffic
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Wu Jiaqiu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.14 21:48:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek NO
I agree with this statement.
Also, the learning skills don't take too long to learn anyway. I got all of mine to a decent level in two weeks. Every tech 2 learning skill past 4 isn't really worth it. You don't need level 5 for all the rank 1 learning skills either, the payback isnt worth it.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr Rock Grinders
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Posted - 2009.02.15 15:41:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Gonada
you want to learn things faster? do learning skills, think of it as university , people that just have high school(crap learning skills), take longer to do stuff. too bad if you don't like learning skills. they add a flavor to the game you idiots wont be satisfied till eve turns into wow for babies.
Learning skills have no value, the only effect they have is to cause new people to wait 2-3 weeks before they can train anything of value, its simply a prerequisite to start playing. Thats not "hard" or "hardcore" thats bad design. Grinding on something for two weeks doesn't make you less like WoW, it makes you *more* like it. Eve is a "hardcore" game unlike WoW because there are real risks in the game. In Eve when you get killed you loose your ship, and everything on it, and if your not careful even your skillpoints. Contrast this with WoW where when you die you simply respawn and loose nothing of significance. Eve is also different from WoW in that you don't have to actively grind something to improve your skills, However the only net effect of Learning skills is to prevent you from doing anything significant the first few weeks you start the game, its crazy, simply bad design and should be eliminated.
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Lone Davinel
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.02.23 07:43:00 -
[135]
wow anyone who disagrees with this is completely WRONG WRONG WRONG! Learning skills are completly pointless, everyone is saying training learning skills is a "choice"... Thats like saying you COULD run out of the way of a bus about to run you over but you also have a "choice" to CRAWL out of the way of the bus thats about to run you over.
yah I guess it is still a "choice" but its obvious to most people which one you would "choose".
I don't know about you but I play mmo's over the long term... I mean thats the whole appeal about mmo's is their replay value. So when I made my first character and found out about learning skills I thought "Oh.... well I guess I will train all my learning skills up so that I can train everything else TWICE AS FAST" but in the back of my head I was saying.... "well this is really stupid why do these skills even exist in the first place if they are basically required by anyone that plans to play for more than a month". Hey CCP? You would like players to play for more than a month right?
And as far as re-imbursing players who already trained learning skills. Just calculate how much SP they have trained in learning skills and give them a 2x SP rate until they have earned that back. Easy and clean. Any intelligent person can plainly see learning skills are pointless. I mean I had to literally think about it for 2 seconds to know this... there is no valid argument against removing learning skills.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.24 23:14:00 -
[136]
first it will be eliminate all learning skills
next it will be give us free skills
you lamers, you are whats wrong with gaming nowdays.
Please, jump into traffic
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Covert Kitty
Amarr Rock Grinders
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Posted - 2009.02.28 18:02:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Gonada
you lamers, you are whats wrong with gaming nowdays.
You tell em! Back in my day games played US! And we *liked* it that way!
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Lone Davinel
Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:20:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Lone Davinel on 02/03/2009 16:24:13
Originally by: Gonada first it will be eliminate all learning skills
next it will be give us free skills
you lamers, you are whats wrong with gaming nowdays.
...? this comment has no valid point, your completly ignoring the actual situation and just stating a bland rebuttal. What does the old player have to lose from this?
Say you have 2 million SP invested in learning skills and CCP decides to get rid of learning skills:
Old Players: Will have all their learning SP removed and will earn SP at twice the speed until they have re-accumulated those 2 million SP. They could even make it 4x the speed or 10x the speed (does it really matter?). So basically what the old player gets out of this is a free 2 million SP (about 2 months training time).
New players: Can start training towards their specialization immediately without having to Learn how to LEARN!! Remember folks this is a game! its supposed to be fun, now of course anything fun is also usually a challenge, but training learning skills is no "challenge"... its simply a delay of the fun factor of the games skill system which is training your character towards better modules, better fittings, and better ships.
When my engineering 5 first completed I was really happy and proud of my choice to start training all my core skills as early as possible... when I finished training my last learning skill up 5 I wasn't happy or proud, I felt cheated out of my learning time to train something redundant, so I felt relieved that I got it over with.
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Barratacus
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:23:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Gonada
you idiots wont be satisfied till eve turns into wow for babies.
I agree! This game should be painful, slow, and very difficult. Let everyone else go to WoW (you know the fifteen million MMO players who are subbed to WoW).
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Righteous Deeds
Diverse Endeavors
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Posted - 2009.03.07 11:51:00 -
[140]
I don't really care much one way or the other, but I would demand reimbursement for the SPs if learning skills went away. Can't see CCP willing to do that, even if they could.
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Alqualonde
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.09 21:45:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Alqualonde on 09/03/2009 21:51:15 I have no idea why I didn't quit when I found out about learning skills. I think I was doing them as my "alternate" overnight skill, while I trained more immediately useful things during the day.
I don't care about getting reimbursed if they get removed. It's just water under bridge. Newbies are more important than anything.
Furthermore, I find the comments about EVEMon a little off-putting. It's a great tool, but I always feel a little whenever I start playing a new game and everyone's like "here are all the third party utilities you need to make it not suck". When you guys wonder about people who are "too stupid" to use EVEMon, I can't help but think, "That's me, only I'm too lazy to juggle a bunch of extra **** to go with all my games." ____
Originally by: Coranor When the **** did we start being nice to people who bring rifters and ****ing caracals to our fleets? WHY? Seriously why are we not just shooting these ****ers [...]
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eliminator2
Gallente THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.03.11 09:18:00 -
[142]
well you are forgetting one thing
with attribute and learning skills you elimanate implants making them plain and boring and not really worth what you pay for
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Kumi Unn
Amarr Gravis Unbound Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.11 15:55:00 -
[143]
Why wold you remove an option?
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Kavu
Gnarkill INC
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Posted - 2009.03.19 00:47:00 -
[144]
A. its not 2 or 3 mil its 5,376,000 with all at 5
B. saying they should be removed is silly, i like +10 to all of my attributes and everyone can train them so its no advantage, i just bought the game first, what mmo do you know of where the older player doesnt at least have the chance for an advantage?
C. stop whining and train your learning skills
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Dorian Tats
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:44:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Dorian Tats on 19/03/2009 16:47:32 I'm doing my learning skills now. Pretty dull. I think I should log for a couple of weeks. It's pretty unrewarding.
Easy answers: -Leave learning skills in, give them another property that would be of pew pew use to a new player. It doesn't have to be significant, but enough so that my immediate eve future isn't:
"Wow. If I spend 30 days doing this, it will only take me 40 days to get into that ship I want"
-Kill learning skills. Reimburse older players for their time by applying a training bonus good for the next X skill points, where x is equal to the number of skill points that said older player has tied up in learning skills.
***EDIT: I should qualify that. There's nothing totally wrong that I can see thus far, it's just kind of road blocky. I was having a good time leveling into new ships, learning how 1 skill going up by 1 level can drastically improve some aspect of my ship----now I have to take a big break from that fun to do this.
I'm not whining. It just is kind of a buzz kill.
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place1
Amarr Orion Ore Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.20 07:11:00 -
[146]
I like learning skills please add more. I want (rank 8) learning skills.
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Emma Trader
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Posted - 2009.03.20 08:06:00 -
[147]
This whole discussion is too funny. It's simple... L1 learning skills to level 4 and L3 learning skills to level 3 takes 5 days with the added skill training speed. It's not like you have to train anything in this game that you don't want to; if you want to mission or mine, train the skills first.
It's not hazing, a test, etc... It's your option to train those skills when you choose to. I just started training the L3 learning skills to level 5 on a 50m SP character.
I'll tell you flat out. If you are not patient enough to wait 5 days to train up learning skills to 4/3, then this probably isn't the game for you.
Oh, and by the way. The new attribute remap more than makes up for ANY skill point training deficiency that you might have as long as you train a select set of skill, ie just spaceship skills.
I thought I was in the CaOD for a minute while reading this thread.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.03.20 12:09:00 -
[148]
Learning skills serve a purpose. Not all have the patience/time to get advanced level 5's, while others do them - and in the long run have it pay off. It's an investment they do, just like some train certain skills to level 5 to get a minimal benefit over others that train level 4 skills.
In that sense the learning skills makes perfect sense. You can compare that to why almost every combat pilot in the game has all ship/weapon/tank skills to 4, while some older/more hardcore has got all/most to level 5. The benefit of armor comps or t2 gunnery skills at lv5 vs a lv4 is minmal. Still there's players doing it. Just like some do adv learning 5's. -
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Tadesae
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Posted - 2009.03.20 20:13:00 -
[149]
The only reason some people have an issue with learning skills is that the majority of human beings have mutiple OCD's.
I can't figure out why people lose sleep at night because something they do in a game isn't optimized to 100% efficiency. Lets give + 5 implants for rewards on lvl 1 missions while we're at it. Sheesh!
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