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Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 14:43:00 - [1] Good discussion out there already on the poor risk/reward of FW in general and FW missions in particular. Haven't heard complaints about FW griefing so I will start. Pretty obvious to me that you will see several pirates and/or their alts join the militias so they can lead the pick up gangs that CCP wants to happen. And since those pirates have so much PVP experience they will naturally FC thier PVP noob gangs. Of course their leadership will be deceptive, and the gang will be delivered into the hands of their FC's pirate gang. just another thread on the FW fail train.
CrayC CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.25 14:46:00 - [2] Edited by: CrayC on 25/05/2008 14:47:29 Well... If said noob gangs have setup for combat in lowsec, as they should, it won't be much of a problem. They can "simply" fight back. I know, I know, still open to exploit and so on, but when all comes down to it, it's lowsec, it doesn't matter if it's FW-related or not, you become a valid target for everyone... edit: oh, and you're thinking that fleets will be random noobs joining forces, as it is on Sisi. I doubt it. If a corp joins as one, they will probably fight as one. Or old friends leaving corp/alliance will form up and fly together. I seriously doubt we will have the same teamspirit on TQ as it is now on Sisi...
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:04:00 - [3] Uhmm... how is this different then current metagameing? "Pirates" can get alts into current corps who live in lowsec/empire/0.0 and "lead" them into ambush situations for their "pirate" corp?
Armoured C Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:12:00 - [4] isnt the idea of FW is so you can find a fight ? why would this be a bad thing if the stepping stone that is FW to actual PVP then shouldn't they know that not everyone can be trusted and that people should bring the fight instead of crying on said forums and it really doesnt matter who or what gang you are in as low sec is low sec you are a shiney sprialy thing in everyone UI
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:16:00 - [5] So FW is going to fail because PvP setup ships looking for PvP will end up in PvP situations. Yep - I can see that being an epic fail
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:31:00 - [6] 4-5 t1 cruisers against a pirate gatecamp, that isn't PVP its PK And the fail isn't that it happens once, it is that it won't happen again. 15 seconds of "PVP" won't be worth it for the grind empire missions or ratting to buy the ship. FW was supposed to be something fo rthe more casual, empire player. Sure a couple RP corps might find it enjoyable, but unless it changes the average/casual player is going to try it a couple times and then pass.
CrayC CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Qduhaf 4-5 t1 cruisers against a pirate gatecamp, that isn't PVP its PK PK does not exist in EVE. It's PART of the game to kill everyone else, hence PVP being used instead of PK. I know they're the same thing, but the term "PK'er" cannot exist in EVE...
Reverend Revelator Geddonites	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:36:00 - [8] Pick up gangs? As in, ganging up with strangers? Strangers, as in people I do not previously know? You'd have to be pretty new, not to mention naive, to join one I think, and I suspect you'd learn real fast the error of your ways. As for CCP thinking pick up gangs is a viable concept, surely they can't be THAT stupid? -- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love --
gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:41:00 - [9] Originally by: Qduhaf 4-5 t1 cruisers against a pirate gatecamp, that isn't PVP its PK If you jump into a hostile camp, because you don't got a scout, you get what you are asking for. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:53:00 - [10] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Qduhaf 4-5 t1 cruisers against a pirate gatecamp, that isn't PVP its PK If you jump into a hostile camp, because you don't got a scout, you get what you are asking for. If your scout is a pirate friend and you're leading them on purpose to a gate camp you know will kill all your people, then it doesn't matter. As far as I can tell the only thing that will avoid this is people saying "Don't join _____ gang! He'll get you killed on purpose!" By the way - people can already do this and they do. It's not a big deal nor is it as prevalent as some people think it could be. --- Put in space whales!
5mokey McPot Caeco Dominus	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Qduhaf 4-5 t1 cruisers against a pirate gatecamp, that isn't PVP its PK And the fail isn't that it happens once, it is that it won't happen again. 15 seconds of "PVP" won't be worth it for the grind empire missions or ratting to buy the ship. FW was supposed to be something fo rthe more casual, empire player. Sure a couple RP corps might find it enjoyable, but unless it changes the average/casual player is going to try it a couple times and then pass. To be honest most pirates arnt that great pvpers, yes some are very good but they are a minority the rest will probably run if you have got a half decent gang and you never know you might actualy get a good fight out of it
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Qduhaf FW was supposed to be something fo rthe more casual, empire player. Sure a couple RP corps might find it enjoyable, but unless it changes the average/casual player is going to try it a couple times and then pass. I have seen numerous threads from you claiming that FW is going to fail. What is your agenda? Just telling people it is going to fail over and over again is not going to work - most people know this place is full of noisy idiots and ignore it. Or are you scared ? after all it is clear that quite a number of those who class themselves PvP'ers on this forum really mean that they enjoy picking on defenseless targets in situations where they have all the advantages. Perhaps a bigger %age of the population having PvP skills might make the lives of those kinds of player much harder.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:43:00 - [13] Yeah and post with yer main. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Hannobaal Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.25 17:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Luh Windan I have seen numerous threads from you claiming that FW is going to fail. What is your agenda? Just telling people it is going to fail over and over again is not going to work - most people know this place is full of noisy idiots and ignore it. Or are you scared ? after all it is clear that quite a number of those who class themselves PvP'ers on this forum really mean that they enjoy picking on defenseless targets in situations where they have all the advantages. Perhaps a bigger %age of the population having PvP skills might make the lives of those kinds of player much harder. He is obviously a high-sec dwelling carebear who is filled with paranoid fear of the big bad evil pirates in low-sec.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 17:05:00 - [15] So what's your suggestion to avoid these terrible consequences? Boink!
Andrue	Posted - 2008.05.25 18:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Andrue on 25/05/2008 18:16:37 Originally by: Luh Windan So FW is going to fail because PvP setup ships looking for PvP will end up in PvP situations. Yep - I can see that being an epic fail The bigger question is how many of today's pirates will expect FW players to just run off and collapse? I'm expecting a torrent of whining and tears from today's pirates as they discover that 'carebears' have teeth. Mission runners might lack EW experience but they know how to tank and they have a pretty good idea how to gank. Something a lot of the thread makers like the OP are missing is that the number of players avoiding PvP because they suck or hate losing ships is actually not that large. There's a lot of people who don't take part in PvP currently because it's a PITA to find it. I'm currently a mission runner but I have experience of PvP and nearly 64 million SP. I know how to control encounters and any pirate that I allow to get into combat range is going to have his exhaust vent handed to him in short order. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Luh Windan Republic University	Posted - 2008.05.25 18:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Andrue Something a lot of the thread makers like the OP are missing is that the number of players avoiding PvP because they suck or hate losing ships is actually not that large. There's a lot of people who don't take part in PvP currently because it's a PITA to find it. Either that or they use war decs to get what they want which costs money. FW is a ticket for those people to get some PvP where they want when they want and those people are probably expecting it. The big thing for me is that I have children and I am a director of a startup so my life is busy and full of demands. Corp life and 0.0 while it sounds fun is way to much commitment for me. From what I have seen on Singularity it will be much easier to find a bunch of people who are up for a quick fight - or even just head off and find one. I know I am not much cop at PvP right now - but I have at least got a couple of fits worked out (frigate and cruiser) that I know are not hopeless - just need to get in some good solid fighting to get my personal skills up. So - its off in my honor tanked burst to find me some action
brakespear Wayward Brewing	Posted - 2008.05.25 18:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Andrue Something a lot of the thread makers like the OP are missing is that the number of players avoiding PvP because they suck or hate losing ships is actually not that large. There's a lot of people who don't take part in PvP currently because it's a PITA to find it. Either that or they use war decs to get what they want which costs money. and also another alternative...in that FW gives a 'reason' for killing (yeah, yeah, I know that to some just blowing stuff up is a good enough reason and more power to them, but not for me ) -------------------------------------------------- 'people will always be tempted to wipe their feet on anything with 'welcome' written on it.'
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.25 18:28:00 - [19] 1) I doubt that pirates "have so much PVP experience" unless you call ganking a newb who found his way to lowsec or killing a defensless ninja-miner great pvp experience. They have experience to fight unaware/non-combat ships, not real pvp against combat-ready opponents. 2) Your tactics might work only one time, from then said pirate will have a hard time to find a gang. 3) Being killed in lowsec can hardly be called griefing. People who travel into a warzone are fully aware that they are going to fight and most likely to lose their ship sooner or later during the trip. It's an calculated loss of an insured ship, pvp in a field that is designed for pvp and where pvp is meant to happen, can't be called griefing.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:05:00 - [20] Blobbing, gatecamping Pirates aren't great PVPers, but its one of the easisest way to "PVP" and has a large follwoing. Those types of pirates are good at getting enough people to lock down camps for the small gangs that FW is supposed to drive. I have suggested repeatedly that some version of instanced PVP that fits into a storyline would be an attractive option for the more casual player. FW will go through a month of usage, and then game mechanics (blobs and griefers/"pirates") will drive the casual players out of lowsec again. If you are hardcore go to 0.0 and play that game, FW won't interfere in any way. If you are complete carebear then you won't leave that life of high sec missioning or mining, ever. A succesful game has many options on how to play, FW doesn't seem to add much to bring people to lowsec that isn't already there.
Feilamya Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:09:00 - [21] This is not griefing. This is EVE.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Qduhaf I have suggested repeatedly that some version of instanced PVP that fits into a storyline would be an attractive option for the more casual player. You just lost any and all credibility you may or may not have had right there mate. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:15:00 - [23] Lol too all non pirates lets put it this way whos going to win an alliance of very experienced pvp pilots vs carebear corp. To ppl who think they are going to be able to come into our low sec with a big gang and own the place will be very mistaken. Do u think we gate camp cause we want to we gate camp cause its easy. Also u really think a whole corp is going to do a mission more like a max of 10 ppl if that.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:18:00 - [24] Originally by: IonKnight Lol too all non pirates lets put it this way whos going to win an alliance of very experienced pvp pilots vs carebear corp. To ppl who think they are going to be able to come into our low sec with a big gang and own the place will be very mistaken. Do u think we gate camp cause we want to we gate camp cause its easy. Also u really think a whole corp is going to do a mission more like a max of 10 ppl if that. The thing is you camper guys are used to having the odd couple of pvp ships and mainly clueless T1 hualers running your camps. FW however will mean you can ramp up that number by several orders. But eh time will tell. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Soporo	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:18:00 - [25] Edited by: Soporo on 25/05/2008 20:22:38 Originally by: Qduhaf Blobbing, gatecamping Pirates aren't great PVPers, but its one of the easisest way to "PVP" and has a large follwoing. Those types of pirates are good at getting enough people to lock down camps for the small gangs that FW is supposed to drive. I have suggested repeatedly that some version of instanced PVP that fits into a storyline would be an attractive option for the more casual player. FW will go through a month of usage, and then game mechanics (blobs and griefers/"pirates") will drive the casual players out of lowsec again. If you are hardcore go to 0.0 and play that game, FW won't interfere in any way. If you are complete carebear then you won't leave that life of high sec missioning or mining, ever. A succesful game has many options on how to play, FW doesn't seem to add much to bring people to lowsec that isn't already there. That's about the way I see it. Untill/unless someone comes up with some kinda pvp-lite with gasp at least the REMOTEST chance of moderately even ship class/gang sizes then no, it aint gonna be used much. ALTERNATELY, and perhaps amusingly, if the missions and content were in some HighSec I believe this would be wildly popular. In short, the presence of the pirates in FW systems will perpetually skew the risk/reward/fun of FW to become yet another unused LowSec fail. In even plainer words: if you made all the FW new areas and .5 then you would have MASSIVE popularity use from Empire peeps. THIS would be "getting your feet wet", not getting tied up and thrown into the deep end.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:20:00 - [26] Hehe. I think the mistake alot of you guys are making is that only clueless n00bs are going to play FW. I predict much lulz and red faces after release. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
IonKnight	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:22:00 - [27] Edited by: IonKnight on 25/05/2008 20:27:05 Edited by: IonKnight on 25/05/2008 20:25:24 Lol Tyrantus u obviously havent faced a proper pvp corp go on join FW i dare U :D But yea me thinks are KB is going to get very crowed. Btw a big gang doesn't scare us as infact we get them loads atm already (anti pirate corps). So the kind of blobs ur talking about are laughable. Try having cry havoc drop hundreds of ppl into ur system then say that we arent used to big blobs. Trust me we are and we know how to combat them (hehe we just pick off the stragglers and then leg it when there buddies come to help. Trust me corps who try FW will be rubbish at pvp and will be punished for it :D. Hehe if the noobs bring frigates we bring cruiser if they bring cruiser we bring bs's if they bring bs's we will bring Capital Ships. If they bring cap ships we will pop them in a hoarde of frigates :D
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:28:00 - [28] Srry mate but I've been happily living in 0.0 for almost a year now. Low sec doesn't scare me nor should it. No bubbles means camps are mostly useless for stopping gangs of ships or even mildly intelligent solo players. And remember that whole experienced pvp corps are joining FW. So those very entities you tell us poor FW players to avoid or die horribly will be roaming around looking for you. Fw is going to be soooo much fun. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:28:00 - [29] Originally by: CrayC [edit: oh, and you're thinking that fleets will be random noobs joining forces, as it is on Sisi. I doubt it. If a corp joins as one, they will probably fight as one. Or old friends leaving corp/alliance will form up and fly together. I seriously doubt we will have the same teamspirit on TQ as it is now on Sisi... You are exactly right here, the one thing that might save FW is that a series of corps that form a loose alliance(s) to participate in FW. CCP should figure out how to allow this to happen, otherwise the only real benefit of joining a faction is that you don't take a security hit for attacking war targets in lowsec. Still this will utilize the content that is part of FW as there still doesn't seem to be any reason to care what faction owns a space, and the mission are higher risk/lower reward versions of what is already out there. Losing security status attacking pirates in contested FW regions also needs to be addresed, doesn't make sense to lose security if you are in a contested region and attack a pirate (aka "neutral") Incentives for participating, allowing FW alliance(s) (seperate from space holding 0.0 alliances) and removing the sec status loss for attacking pirates in FW will make it something that CCP waited years to release.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Tyrantus And remember that whole experienced pvp corps are joining FW. So those very entities you tell us poor FW players to avoid or die horribly will be roaming around looking for you. Fw is going to be soooo much fun. So FW becomes a place for exisitng corps that live on the edge of 0.0 already, so waht again does it add?

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