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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 15:54:56
ill keep it short and sweet.
1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems.
Features of the 1400mm:
large alpha, relatively low fifting requirements, capless. awful tracking, poor range, small clip size, low dps.
In my opinion, the 1400mm no longer offers enough alpha damage to outweigh the drawbacks of poor range, dps and tracking.
Thus my proposal is for a review of the 1400mm gun and large artilley in general with a bias toward restoring some of its alpha potential.
An example could be
1400mm T2 Boost the damage mod by +25% (x1.25). Increase the rate of fire by around +23%(x1.23) to compensate, keeping dps relatively constant.
Furthermore a clip size boost could be considered, perhaps 5%, providing a very indirect boost to dps.
In addition to this, adjustments to t2 ammo, specifically Tremor, should be considered. Perhaps a bonus to provide a reasonable boost to falloff (50%)?
If this is not feasible, perhaps the role of artillery needs to be changed?
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 15:54:56
ill keep it short and sweet.
1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems.
Features of the 1400mm:
large alpha, relatively low fifting requirements, capless. awful tracking, poor range, small clip size, low dps.
In my opinion, the 1400mm no longer offers enough alpha damage to outweigh the drawbacks of poor range, dps and tracking.
Thus my proposal is for a review of the 1400mm gun and large artilley in general with a bias toward restoring some of its alpha potential.
An example could be
1400mm T2 Boost the damage mod by +25% (x1.25). Increase the rate of fire by around +23%(x1.23) to compensate, keeping dps relatively constant.
Furthermore a clip size boost could be considered, perhaps 5%, providing a very indirect boost to dps.
In addition to this, adjustments to t2 ammo, specifically Tremor, should be considered. Perhaps a bonus to provide a reasonable boost to falloff (50%)?
If this is not feasible, perhaps the role of artillery needs to be changed?
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Bloodyranger
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:53:00 -
[3]
Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types
/Not signed
--------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
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Bloodyranger
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:53:00 -
[4]
Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types
/Not signed
--------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:58:00 -
[5]
i understand that. the issue here is that the alpha of the 1400m is no longer sufficient to provide, at fleet ranges, competitive cumulative damage when compared with the megathron or the apoc.
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Arshes Nei
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.05.27 17:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arshes Nei on 27/05/2008 17:11:37 The balancing of arties vs other guns was done prior to the HP boosts and rigs or even damagecontrols, i think their dps value needs to be rethought in light of those changes and the fact that alpha is of lower importance these days.
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Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.05.27 17:21:00 -
[7]
This is not a problem specific to the 1400mm artillery. It's actually a problem for all artillery. When they increased the armor of all ships they should have adjusted artillery for bigger alpha on a longer time scale. I.e. keep the DPS the same but increase the damage and lower the rate of fire.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.05.27 18:53:00 -
[8]
As others have pointed out, while this problem is perhaps worst in the 1400s, the general design issue is a problem in all arty right now.
In light of the hp boost and all those new ways to not die, their alpha nature really needs to be re-examined. They have gone from 'I can kill this in one barrage!' to 'I keep having to justify using arty to people who get so much more out of missiles and rails'
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.27 19:13:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 19:14:09 Clearly the problem is not just limited to the 1400mm gun, but I feel the gun represents best the the general obsolescence of the weapon system. I am hopeful that a review which would produce any changes to the 1400mm, the artillery gun with which people can most identify with in regards to long range projectile combat, would almost certainly filter through to the other incarnations of the weapon system
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Bad Harlequin
Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.28 00:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 28/05/2008 00:49:40 I think artillery role needs to be not only balanced but perhaps completely rethought. Alphaganks are obsolete, and maybe they should be... but there could still be a fleet/sniper role for a large salvo / low tracking / lowish ROF platform.
I wonder if a possible solution could be adjusting the damtype spread of the various Proj ammos..? I realize that's a nontrivial thing to suggest, but there's a great deal of flexibility in there to tune exactly what kind of shield/armor damage you're dealing compared to range bonuses / penalties. Tuning damtype spread and range bon/pen could do a lot.
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-- we all live in a yellow subroutine -- |
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ceyriot
Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.28 00:55:00 -
[11]
As mentioned above, there are problems with 1400mm's.
a RoF, clip size and range boosts would be greatly appreciated, if just to bring them to par with the other racial equivalents.
Faction Store - Killboard |
Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:30:00 -
[12]
Railguns (Of all sizes) have a variation on this problem. Their range is great, but their damage is pathetic and I'm pretty sure their tracking is even worse than artillery. While we're looking at weapons, we should look at those, too.
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Cpt Striker
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Posted - 2008.05.28 07:58:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Cpt Striker on 28/05/2008 07:59:03 You are, of course, entitled to you're opinion on railguns, but this thread is not the place to voice them.
Just to correct you slightly, railguns have better range, dps and base tracking (the mega also has a tracking bonus) than artillery.
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 13:30:00 -
[14]
I got a 2442 perfect strike last night with my 1400's and EMP :cool:. The range and dps of artillery does bother me though, I'd like to see a 10-20% increase in range to bring ships like the tempest up to par with other snipers and a small increase on the rate of fire (maybe 10%) to boost artillery dps.
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Allaria Kriss
Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.28 13:50:00 -
[15]
Just saying that as long as we're looking at weapons that suck, figured I'd mention rails, you know, broaden the proposal a bit...
Plus, railguns are primarily a Caldari weapon, not a Gallente one - Gallente get damage and tracking bonuses that are really more applicable to blasters, while Caldari get range bonuses best suited to railguns. If you have to mount rails on a Gallente ship for them to be effective, well, that indicates a problem in and of itself.
I stand corrected on the tracking though.
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Yorda
Battlestars
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Posted - 2008.05.28 14:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Allaria Kriss Just saying that as long as we're looking at weapons that suck, figured I'd mention rails, you know, broaden the proposal a bit...
Plus, railguns are primarily a Caldari weapon, not a Gallente one - Gallente get damage and tracking bonuses that are really more applicable to blasters, while Caldari get range bonuses best suited to railguns. If you have to mount rails on a Gallente ship for them to be effective, well, that indicates a problem in and of itself.
I stand corrected on the tracking though.
You should probably make a thread about rails then.
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Sao Rigoa
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.05.28 16:16:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Sao Rigoa on 28/05/2008 16:16:46 he was not wrong to mention the rails, after all it was asked to bring the 1400 back on par with the longest range guns of other races. the rails are mentioned here as" they also suck" witch greatly support the need to fix the 1400 arty as the arty is even worse than the rail in every aspect but cap usage.
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Natalia Kovac
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.02 13:58:00 -
[18]
Supporting this.
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Valadeya uthanaras
Dragons Of Redemption
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:11:00 -
[19]
Not supported
artillery are capless, you can fire 23/7 as long as you have ammo
dont complain
Laser drain your cap in less than 5 mins in most case, and they are really hard to fit
railguns also use both ammo and cap ( with significantly lower damage)
you can fit a mwd on your minmatarr boat without ANY disadvantage (unless active tank in fleet????)
so dont ever complain about them
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Marn Prestoc
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.06.02 15:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Not supported
artillery are capless, you can fire 23/7 as long as you have ammo
dont complain
Laser drain your cap in less than 5 mins in most case, and they are really hard to fit
railguns also use both ammo and cap ( with significantly lower damage)
you can fit a mwd on your minmatarr boat without ANY disadvantage (unless active tank in fleet????)
so dont ever complain about them
Typical OMG CAP! response. If your going to comment on cap then take a look at how often arty needs to reload and what that does for the DPS that is already significantly lower than beams. 1400s are as hard to fit as beams.
When artillery was given rubbish tracking it was deserved as at the time you could really hurt ships with the alpha especially smaller ships, but after so many HP boosts and ways to increase HP that alpha is nothing like what it used to be yet the penalties are still there.
Also ranges have increased with the new Apoc giving the lower base range beams much more range (and dps and tracking and no reloading for cap use), rails already offering more range and tracking (especially more tracking on mega) then finally the Rokh which can hit even further without any need to fit a tracking module.
As I said in the large AC topic not just artillery should be looked at but ammo as well, possibly the range could be helped with a falloff bonus on Tremor.
Basically the downsides for the advantage of no cap use (its the only true advantage) are just to much with the increases in other snipers performance and the already great performance of the rail Mega. No one is asking for beam style DPS or rail optimal so i'll keep complaining until there is a balanced minmatar style artillery for todays EVE. -
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.02 17:49:00 -
[21]
Supported. The only reason to fly a Minmatar BS in a fleet battle is that you don't have another race's BS trained. Artillery, especially large and/or Minmatar BS must be looked at as a result. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:04:00 -
[22]
Quote: 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems.
You have to take the rough with the smooth. I think the fastest ship should have the weakest long range fire. You have excellent short range fire. Autocannons are good enough that amarrians mount them on their ships instead of lasers. Now, they may be 'too much' too weak, but I'd definitely say they should be the weakest.
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Cilppiz
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.02 21:04:00 -
[23]
Higher damage modifier compensated with increased ROF - Supported
Bigger clip size, even without stealth dps boost - Supported
Tremor adjustment - Supported if Spike and Aurora are boosted with similar fashion
I feel urge to add that rather than having all t2 long range "sniper" ammunitions changed, Id like to see falloff bonus included to Tracking Computers range scripst and to Tracking Enhancers much like it was introduced to Tracking Disruptors.
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MentaFox
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.06.02 21:38:00 -
[24]
Edited by: MentaFox on 02/06/2008 21:38:42 ISSUE: 1400mm guns should be renamed to something like "mobile car launcher". A 1,4 metre gun! geez
EDIT: (Support) ----------------------
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Lord Fitz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.03 02:13:00 -
[25]
I personally would like to see the change somewhat like faster ROF, but a smaller ammo capacity, so you get more burst damage/alpha. But the same overall DPS. I think it did miss the change when everything else got a HP boost, making the alpha it had alot less useful.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.03 06:02:00 -
[26]
I would say they should lose about 25% of thier rate of fire (AKA fire slower)
and increase their damage by 35%
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The Hardman
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
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Posted - 2008.06.03 07:48:00 -
[27]
I will support this (despite not being able to use Large Art yet).
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.03 09:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/06/2008 18:06:29
Quote: 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems.
You have to take the rough with the smooth. I think the fastest ship should have the weakest long range fire. You have excellent short range fire. Autocannons are good enough that amarrians mount them on their ships instead of lasers. Now, they may be 'too much' too weak, but I'd definitely say they should be the weakest. I'm not averse to looking at and overhauling them, but I think you'd have to expect to give up the 'capless weapon' bonus in order to make any real progress.
The problem is that the Minmatar do not have a solid sniping battleship that can compete with the Megathron, Rokh and Apoc. The problem is large artillery, or the battleships they're fitted on.
(Also, I would like to point out that the minmatar speed advantage is very small at the battleship level, <10%, and the agility is precisely the same as equivalent Gallente ships) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Papa Ina
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.03 10:03:00 -
[29]
supporting this because I trained minnie BS V :(
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DaMadness
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Posted - 2008.06.03 10:36:00 -
[30]
signed/
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