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[Issue] 1400mm Artillery

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Cpt Striker	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:48:00 - [1] Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 15:54:56 ill keep it short and sweet. 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems. Features of the 1400mm: large alpha, relatively low fifting requirements, capless. awful tracking, poor range, small clip size, low dps. In my opinion, the 1400mm no longer offers enough alpha damage to outweigh the drawbacks of poor range, dps and tracking. Thus my proposal is for a review of the 1400mm gun and large artilley in general with a bias toward restoring some of its alpha potential. An example could be 1400mm T2 Boost the damage mod by +25% (x1.25). Increase the rate of fire by around +23%(x1.23) to compensate, keeping dps relatively constant. Furthermore a clip size boost could be considered, perhaps 5%, providing a very indirect boost to dps. In addition to this, adjustments to t2 ammo, specifically Tremor, should be considered. Perhaps a bonus to provide a reasonable boost to falloff (50%)? If this is not feasible, perhaps the role of artillery needs to be changed?
Cpt Striker	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:48:00 - [2] Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 15:54:56 ill keep it short and sweet. 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems. Features of the 1400mm: large alpha, relatively low fifting requirements, capless. awful tracking, poor range, small clip size, low dps. In my opinion, the 1400mm no longer offers enough alpha damage to outweigh the drawbacks of poor range, dps and tracking. Thus my proposal is for a review of the 1400mm gun and large artilley in general with a bias toward restoring some of its alpha potential. An example could be 1400mm T2 Boost the damage mod by +25% (x1.25). Increase the rate of fire by around +23%(x1.23) to compensate, keeping dps relatively constant. Furthermore a clip size boost could be considered, perhaps 5%, providing a very indirect boost to dps. In addition to this, adjustments to t2 ammo, specifically Tremor, should be considered. Perhaps a bonus to provide a reasonable boost to falloff (50%)? If this is not feasible, perhaps the role of artillery needs to be changed?
Bloodyranger Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:53:00 - [3] Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types /Not signed --------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
Bloodyranger Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:53:00 - [4] Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types /Not signed --------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
Cpt Striker	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:58:00 - [5] i understand that. the issue here is that the alpha of the 1400m is no longer sufficient to provide, at fleet ranges, competitive cumulative damage when compared with the megathron or the apoc.
Arshes Nei Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.27 17:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Arshes Nei on 27/05/2008 17:11:37 The balancing of arties vs other guns was done prior to the HP boosts and rigs or even damagecontrols, i think their dps value needs to be rethought in light of those changes and the fact that alpha is of lower importance these days.
Letrange Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.27 17:21:00 - [7] This is not a problem specific to the 1400mm artillery. It's actually a problem for all artillery. When they increased the armor of all ships they should have adjusted artillery for bigger alpha on a longer time scale. I.e. keep the DPS the same but increase the damage and lower the rate of fire.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:53:00 - [8] As others have pointed out, while this problem is perhaps worst in the 1400s, the general design issue is a problem in all arty right now. In light of the hp boost and all those new ways to not die, their alpha nature really needs to be re-examined. They have gone from 'I can kill this in one barrage!' to 'I keep having to justify using arty to people who get so much more out of missiles and rails'
Cpt Striker	Posted - 2008.05.27 19:13:00 - [9] Edited by: Cpt Striker on 27/05/2008 19:14:09 Clearly the problem is not just limited to the 1400mm gun, but I feel the gun represents best the the general obsolescence of the weapon system. I am hopeful that a review which would produce any changes to the 1400mm, the artillery gun with which people can most identify with in regards to long range projectile combat, would almost certainly filter through to the other incarnations of the weapon system
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 28/05/2008 00:49:40 I think artillery role needs to be not only balanced but perhaps completely rethought. Alphaganks are obsolete, and maybe they should be... but there could still be a fleet/sniper role for a large salvo / low tracking / lowish ROF platform. I wonder if a possible solution could be adjusting the damtype spread of the various Proj ammos..? I realize that's a nontrivial thing to suggest, but there's a great deal of flexibility in there to tune exactly what kind of shield/armor damage you're dealing compared to range bonuses / penalties. Tuning damtype spread and range bon/pen could do a lot. ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --

ceyriot Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:55:00 - [11] As mentioned above, there are problems with 1400mm's. a RoF, clip size and range boosts would be greatly appreciated, if just to bring them to par with the other racial equivalents. Faction Store - Killboard
Allaria Kriss Elipse Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:30:00 - [12] Railguns (Of all sizes) have a variation on this problem. Their range is great, but their damage is pathetic and I'm pretty sure their tracking is even worse than artillery. While we're looking at weapons, we should look at those, too.
Cpt Striker	Posted - 2008.05.28 07:58:00 - [13] Edited by: Cpt Striker on 28/05/2008 07:59:03 You are, of course, entitled to you're opinion on railguns, but this thread is not the place to voice them. Just to correct you slightly, railguns have better range, dps and base tracking (the mega also has a tracking bonus) than artillery.
Yorda Battlestars	Posted - 2008.05.28 13:30:00 - [14] I got a 2442 perfect strike last night with my 1400's and EMP :cool:. The range and dps of artillery does bother me though, I'd like to see a 10-20% increase in range to bring ships like the tempest up to par with other snipers and a small increase on the rate of fire (maybe 10%) to boost artillery dps.
Allaria Kriss Elipse Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 13:50:00 - [15] Just saying that as long as we're looking at weapons that suck, figured I'd mention rails, you know, broaden the proposal a bit... Plus, railguns are primarily a Caldari weapon, not a Gallente one - Gallente get damage and tracking bonuses that are really more applicable to blasters, while Caldari get range bonuses best suited to railguns. If you have to mount rails on a Gallente ship for them to be effective, well, that indicates a problem in and of itself. I stand corrected on the tracking though.
Yorda Battlestars	Posted - 2008.05.28 14:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Allaria Kriss Just saying that as long as we're looking at weapons that suck, figured I'd mention rails, you know, broaden the proposal a bit... Plus, railguns are primarily a Caldari weapon, not a Gallente one - Gallente get damage and tracking bonuses that are really more applicable to blasters, while Caldari get range bonuses best suited to railguns. If you have to mount rails on a Gallente ship for them to be effective, well, that indicates a problem in and of itself. I stand corrected on the tracking though. You should probably make a thread about rails then.
Sao Rigoa Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:16:00 - [17] Edited by: Sao Rigoa on 28/05/2008 16:16:46 he was not wrong to mention the rails, after all it was asked to bring the 1400 back on par with the longest range guns of other races. the rails are mentioned here as" they also suck" witch greatly support the need to fix the 1400 arty as the arty is even worse than the rail in every aspect but cap usage.
Natalia Kovac Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.02 13:58:00 - [18] Supporting this.
Valadeya uthanaras Dragons Of Redemption	Posted - 2008.06.02 15:11:00 - [19] Not supported artillery are capless, you can fire 23/7 as long as you have ammo dont complain Laser drain your cap in less than 5 mins in most case, and they are really hard to fit railguns also use both ammo and cap ( with significantly lower damage) you can fit a mwd on your minmatarr boat without ANY disadvantage (unless active tank in fleet????) so dont ever complain about them
Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.02 15:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Not supported artillery are capless, you can fire 23/7 as long as you have ammo dont complain Laser drain your cap in less than 5 mins in most case, and they are really hard to fit railguns also use both ammo and cap ( with significantly lower damage) you can fit a mwd on your minmatarr boat without ANY disadvantage (unless active tank in fleet????) so dont ever complain about them Typical OMG CAP! response. If your going to comment on cap then take a look at how often arty needs to reload and what that does for the DPS that is already significantly lower than beams. 1400s are as hard to fit as beams. When artillery was given rubbish tracking it was deserved as at the time you could really hurt ships with the alpha especially smaller ships, but after so many HP boosts and ways to increase HP that alpha is nothing like what it used to be yet the penalties are still there. Also ranges have increased with the new Apoc giving the lower base range beams much more range (and dps and tracking and no reloading for cap use), rails already offering more range and tracking (especially more tracking on mega) then finally the Rokh which can hit even further without any need to fit a tracking module. As I said in the large AC topic not just artillery should be looked at but ammo as well, possibly the range could be helped with a falloff bonus on Tremor. Basically the downsides for the advantage of no cap use (its the only true advantage) are just to much with the increases in other snipers performance and the already great performance of the rail Mega. No one is asking for beam style DPS or rail optimal so i'll keep complaining until there is a balanced minmatar style artillery for todays EVE. -

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.02 17:49:00 - [21] Supported. The only reason to fly a Minmatar BS in a fleet battle is that you don't have another race's BS trained. Artillery, especially large and/or Minmatar BS must be looked at as a result. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.06.02 18:04:00 - [22] Quote: 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems. You have to take the rough with the smooth. I think the fastest ship should have the weakest long range fire. You have excellent short range fire. Autocannons are good enough that amarrians mount them on their ships instead of lasers. Now, they may be 'too much' too weak, but I'd definitely say they should be the weakest.
Cilppiz FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.02 21:04:00 - [23] Higher damage modifier compensated with increased ROF - Supported Bigger clip size, even without stealth dps boost - Supported Tremor adjustment - Supported if Spike and Aurora are boosted with similar fashion I feel urge to add that rather than having all t2 long range "sniper" ammunitions changed, Id like to see falloff bonus included to Tracking Computers range scripst and to Tracking Enhancers much like it was introduced to Tracking Disruptors.
MentaFox StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.06.02 21:38:00 - [24] Edited by: MentaFox on 02/06/2008 21:38:42 ISSUE: 1400mm guns should be renamed to something like "mobile car launcher". A 1,4 metre gun! geez EDIT: (Support) ----------------------
Lord Fitz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.03 02:13:00 - [25] I personally would like to see the change somewhat like faster ROF, but a smaller ammo capacity, so you get more burst damage/alpha. But the same overall DPS. I think it did miss the change when everything else got a HP boost, making the alpha it had alot less useful.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.06.03 06:02:00 - [26] I would say they should lose about 25% of thier rate of fire (AKA fire slower) and increase their damage by 35%
The Hardman Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe	Posted - 2008.06.03 07:48:00 - [27] I will support this (despite not being able to use Large Art yet).
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.03 09:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/06/2008 18:06:29 Quote: 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems. You have to take the rough with the smooth. I think the fastest ship should have the weakest long range fire. You have excellent short range fire. Autocannons are good enough that amarrians mount them on their ships instead of lasers. Now, they may be 'too much' too weak, but I'd definitely say they should be the weakest. I'm not averse to looking at and overhauling them, but I think you'd have to expect to give up the 'capless weapon' bonus in order to make any real progress. The problem is that the Minmatar do not have a solid sniping battleship that can compete with the Megathron, Rokh and Apoc. The problem is large artillery, or the battleships they're fitted on. (Also, I would like to point out that the minmatar speed advantage is very small at the battleship level, <10%, and the agility is precisely the same as equivalent Gallente ships) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:03:00 - [29] supporting this because I trained minnie BS V :(
DaMadness	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:36:00 - [30] signed/

Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.03 13:22:00 - [31] op says all.
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.06.03 19:20:00 - [32]
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.03 20:38:00 - [33] Edited by: Fallorn on 03/06/2008 20:38:54 :Page2Snypa: Really work on this stuff Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:57:00 - [34] I support this topic: Artillery is a weapon system designed for a long since bygone era. Preferably I would like to Artillery regain its stature as an alpha strike weapons systemùperhaps through a combination of weapon rebalance and a rethink of certain ship specialization bonuses. Doing so will preserve some diversity in weapon platforms. Failing that end, Matari pilots demand whatever changes are necessary to transform Artillery into a viable and competitive long range weapons system.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:20:00 - [35] Edited by: Gragnor on 03/06/2008 23:22:48 Minmatar needs a comprehensive exmaination as they have ruined the battleships. The ONLY reason to fly a Minmatar battleship was alpha strike. They are fragile and their speed advantage over a sniperthron is negligible. Rigs and doomsday proof cruiser fits have meant that Alphastrike is no longer the arbiter of fights but dps. The end result of all this was the half baked abortion; the Maelstrom. An active tanking FLEET battleship with half a gun's improvement in damage and is a whale to get out of a fight. What a stroke of game designing genius that was. My point. Minmatar 1400's need to be restored to their place of prominence quickly or the entire line of Minnie BS needs a drastic overhaul. The problem is that there is no chance of the this happening as the clueless game designers have no interest in doing this. They want close range fights where lag is maximised, minnie ships are useless and have only ONE possible way of surviving; nanoships. By all means ask; but please do not expect anything from CCP. They know best.............
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:22:00 - [36] Edited by: Gragnor on 03/06/2008 23:22:14 oops double post.
arghy steelwill GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:32:00 - [37] I believe the guns are fine its just the ships that need to be looked at, the tempest is so damn annoying ATM with the TC nerf. I have gal/ama/min bs4 with all gunnery support skills to level 5, when a T1 gun geddon does better in fleet fights then my T2 tempest then theres something wrong. The tempest already needed all of its mid slots just to perform on par with other T2 snipers(2xSBII/1xMWD/2xTCII) along with 4 of its 6 low slots(RCUII/3xGSII) with the other 2 usually ending up being DCII/1600 plate. Then we got the TC/SB nerf now the already horrible tracking gets worse while its still the only sniper with the lowest targetting range. The guns were never changed the ships were- the ships were balanced around the guns change the ships or change the guns. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:45:00 - [38] Something need to be done to either the ships or the guns. Alpha is now worthless, making artillery the worst long range weapon system.
Min Qa	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:05:00 - [39] /signed
Irista Ari'star	Posted - 2008.06.04 02:30:00 - [40]

Unreal5 Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.04 05:54:00 - [41] yes ASD
Code Chills	Posted - 2008.06.04 09:35:00 - [42] Well, Alpha-Strike-Kills were something too common. Therefore they have been removed. Now, when will the Weapon specialized in exactly that removed aspect be "looked at". +15% DPS +100% Clipsize
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.06.05 21:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Something need to be done to either the ships or the guns. Alpha is now worthless, making artillery the worst long range weapon system. Especially in PvE where Minmatar ships, relying on either arti or mixed systems, are dependent on something that works about as well as a Rail. Combining the "Big Alpha - Low DPS" approach of arti with reloading all the time ist just plain BAD. So yeah, I'm absolutely pro artillery Rework. Also the sound and graphics of sub-capital arti could use some love.
Bakatu Kat Kat Family	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:13:00 - [44] i'll give it a +. redesign is needed, but i like the idea of burst weapon more. you shoot a lot, then its cooldown and reaload, and again shooting ... for me its a nice "alpha strike". stays in line with alpha strike of old times "[Being Minmatar is] like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi" -- Axitikus
Nariana Verex Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Bakatu Kat i'll give it a +. redesign is needed, but i like the idea of burst weapon more. you shoot a lot, then its cooldown and reaload, and again shooting ... for me its a nice "alpha strike". stays in line with alpha strike of old times Hmm. You know, this sounds cool. I don't fly Minmatar ships, but I have used Artillery back when it was the only good weapon system on my ancient Prophecy. The idea of shooting four or five powerful shots, then a long reload is kind of appealing. However, if we did this and made their reload speed 15, or even 20 seconds one could argue that an advantage to Projectile weapons [the ability to change ammo types to suit your needs] would be negated. Artillery already received a damage boost when the HP of all ships was increased, but I wonder if 10% or so more range could help out. I don't want Artillery being able to alpha-strike something into oblivion, but I do support the idea of it being very wince inducing. A look into it would be worth it. Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space.
Sworn Absent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:41:00 - [46] Either the guns or the ships, but right now minmatar snipers are outclassed in almost every way and it sucks
Savesti Kyrsst White-Noise	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:07:00 - [47] If they got rid of one of the disadvantages it would be a lot more balanced. I support your proposed change over that as it keeps the individuality of the different weapon systems. _
Red Raider Excalibur Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:23:00 - [48] Right on. A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out.
Qvirk North Star Networks Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:49:00 - [49] /signed
craphound	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:58:00 - [50]

Spurty The Pikey Rebellion II	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:51:00 - [51] I'm not holding my breath for CCP to look into the Math here (and this thread is desperately short on facts and figures). I've trained up Gallente BS so I can lay down the hurt with rails at the cost of using a midslot for cap boosting (midslot hurts my tank .. NOT) if I ever need to fire for more than 30seconds. Also, rails have far better range than artys, artys are pathetic. Don't get upset and bent out of shape, just train something else until the penny drops and they are worth going back to. -- Two cannibals eating a clown. One says to the other "Does this taste funny to you?"
The MapMaker	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:36:00 - [52] the tempest is the weakest fleet sniper and the alpha factor of artillery is now little more than an underpowered gimmick i agree with da op but perhaps the topic could be better presented, with graphs comparing the dps of each of the main fleet sniper BS dealt to a BS target against range, and mathematical comparison between weapon types. Ultimately the issue may be resolved by adjustments to the Tempest which, much like the Eagle, was hit hard by the script changes and went from a decent sniper to the worst racial choice.
FluffyBunnyPuPu COAD Alts United	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:23:00 - [53] Arties do suck.
Efdi Tritanium Workers Union	Posted - 2008.06.11 03:02:00 - [54] One significant problem with artillery is how the racial characteristics work poorly with each other. Specifically how the alpha strike philosophy does not work well with the Minmatar characteristic of fighting in falloff. Because artillery has "high" alpha, and a correspondingly low ROF, each shot fired is individually more important than those of other long range weapon systems. 1400s on a sniper BS have a roughly 12 second ROF, whereas 425 rails have a roughly 5 second ROF, and Tachyons a 7 second ROF. Because beam lasers and rails typically work within optimal, as compared to artillery, more shots hit, with better quality of hits. Combined with the characteristically low DPS of artillery, missed shots from fighting in falloff significantly reduce the effectiveness of Minmatar snipers compared with other races. tl;dr: High alpha, low ROF and fighting in falloff is a very bad combination.
RedeyeAce Demogorgon's Army	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:01:00 - [55] Edited by: RedeyeAce on 11/06/2008 15:01:02 Minnie weps in general need a rework /me heads off to find the other minnie wep posts and the shield / armor swap phoon post
SoleDeo Gloria Mission Runners Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:21:00 - [56] /signed My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:52:00 - [57]
Mori Felding Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:09:00 - [58] ___ Memento Mori
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:27:00 - [59] Even if they did nothing but boost the base optimal by 10km, I'd be far happier.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:10:00 - [60] Edited by: hammyhamm on 12/06/2008 07:11:38 Originally by: Bloodyranger Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types /Not signed A quick glance reveals that Minmatar Encryption Methods is required to invent T2 Tracking computers and Tracking enhancers, so I'd say they are fairly focused on tracking (not to mention that Autocannons have pretty good tracking). My main issue is that the 1400mm Artillery uses so much powergrid in comparison to the fitting grid of all minmatar battleships, meaning that you are almost always better fitting 1200mm instead. All the use of Battleship-size minmatar weapons are exactly what I expect from them: High alpha, low DPS. If anything, I'd have to say that im only in favour of a possible grid reduction on artillery fitting, if any change at all.

Taedron Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:20:00 - [61] Edited by: Taedron on 12/06/2008 14:21:29 Artillery needs a boost at all sizes, just 1400mm is the most visible because it has the largest gap when compared to rails and beams. Especially now that there are ranged bonused ships that use those weapons. Additionally, the issue isn't entirely with the guns themselves (though they do need 75% better tracking and 10% more range and maybe a bit more damage). The main comparison people do with 1400mm arty is the sniper battleships and the tempest is just terrible compared to a rokh or apoc, and is even bad when compared to a mega or abaddon. The tempest is the only one that can't DD tank and hit to 150km. It relies on midslot tracking/opt modules where as the others rely on lowslot mods which are far superior. Also, they use too much grid, or alternately the BSs doesn't have enough grid. Just freeing up the low slot that we currently need for an RCU2 would help slightly. Fix all arty and fix Minmatar battleships.
Elektrea SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.12 15:15:00 - [62]
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.14 03:23:00 - [63] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/06/2008 18:06:29 Quote: 1400mm artillery as is stands arguably represents the worst of the large long range weapon systems. You have to take the rough with the smooth. I think the fastest ship should have the weakest long range fire. You have excellent short range fire. Autocannons are good enough that amarrians mount them on their ships instead of lasers. Now, they may be 'too much' too weak, but I'd definitely say they should be the weakest. I'm not averse to looking at and overhauling them, but I think you'd have to expect to give up the 'capless weapon' bonus in order to make any real progress. You're telling me that the 30m/s that a tempest has over other battleships compensates for having ridiculous weapon systems? Autocannons don't have the best DPS, or range, or ammo usage... they're only used by amarrians because they can't figure out how to use lasers effectively with a tank . Weakest is fine, whatever, but at least set it in line. Maybe you should visit the 10+ page thread between Liang and Goumindong on why 1400s are outdone in every way. Capless means virtually nothing anyway. Anyway, OP supported as artillery is currently crap. Astro
Gantrithor105 Acerbus Vindictum Critical Dissent	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:20:00 - [64] Edited by: Gantrithor105 on 14/06/2008 04:20:10 While I have no unique or useful suggestions, I did want to give my support in that I personally feel Arty (and ACs as well to a lesser degree) need to be looked at. edit man, it's hard to remember to hit that I support button
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.14 05:00:00 - [65] I support the upgrade of the 1400mm arties. The biggest issue as i see it is the amount of bullets in clip that are way lower than the other weapon types. I would suggest increase the clip size so that it can take more shots per clip ( i don't know if this is the rioght terminology- i mean to increase the amount of shots before reloading) Another suggestion could be to increase the amount of bullets per clip decrease RoF and increase the damage to make the Alpha more significant maintaining the same DPS in the long run. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Anahid Brutus TunkbwahCorp	Posted - 2008.06.14 08:12:00 - [66] as if missing battleships that are moving at 100 ms at 100km range just because of the worthless tracking wasn't depressing enough in itself, you'll also be stuck on trying to reload in a couple barrages if there's any lag at all in system, which combined effectively puts your dps somewhere around shit.
Zax Drien DAB	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:02:00 - [67] I'll take a this. <> Ol' blue eyes <>
Ninketsu	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:28:00 - [68] WTB boost ______________________________________ Gobling Artillery 1.Find a cousin. 2.Load the cousin in the cannon. 3.Find another cousin.
beor oranes Black Water.	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:58:00 - [69] More alpha and a bigger clip size would be nice, I can't offer any idea's to actually balance it but it does really need to be looked at. ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!
Thercon Jair InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.06.14 11:18:00 - [70] As someone has said, the problem lies with all arties. Oh, and as we're on it, could we please have a third range of artillery guns to bring it in line with the other races range of guns available? As a note: artillery needs revising as you need so many modules to compensate for the lack of range/tracking and locking range you completely fail to fit any kind of tank/buffer, as all other BSs can do while still outranging and out-dps-ing the minmatar BS line of ships, which is kind of sad. And, of course, you need fitting mods to fit a full rack of 1400mm Arties, yet it doesn't include the ability to fill up the remaining 2 highslots of a tempest. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!

Alpha Trix	Posted - 2008.06.14 13:53:00 - [71] Very much supported. "Alpha" Trix
Demtalin le'Mercennaire The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:02:00 - [72] I only really want 2 changes at the moment. - Give us back our Alpha strike - Minmatar don't really have anything special here anymore. - Increase the tracking to be similar to, say, the slowest tracking equivilant compeditors guns. I do have a suggestion of how alpha strike could be improved, I got this after reading someone elses suggestion of burst fire: - When an arty is activated for the first time it fires 2 shots (2.0x the current alpha), it then fires as per usual...this may be over powered, so penalties such as waiting longer for normal fire to resume, or having each of the first 2 shots only do 75% of their normal damage so they have 1.5x the alpha. -------- Billy Jean is not my lover
Elenath Aliastra	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:30:00 - [73] Edited by: Elenath on 14/06/2008 14:30:25 Not sure how I missed this thread. /signed 100 times.
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:05:00 - [74] /signed 1. Increase Clip-Size Please! 2. Maybe increase Alpha and lower ROF, not sure if really needed. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Mudbonereaper	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:06:00 - [75] signed
Roland 99 Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:09:00 - [76] OP definitely supported. The tempest is currently the worst fleet sniper due to 1400's and was hit the hardest by scripting. You cannot have any kind of a hp buffer without dropping your optimal with tremor under 140. Add in the 25% tracking penalty of tremor and you can't effectively hit a cruiser hull at that range if it's moving.
nabort omen.	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:35:00 - [77] Gief boost plz
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:13:00 - [78] Quote: - Increase the tracking to be similar to, say, the slowest tracking equivilant compeditors guns. So you want the same tracking as other guns, or better, but you also want to keep a DPS edge. That seems very fair to people using rails/lasers. Quote: - When an arty is activated for the first time it fires 2 shots (2.0x the current alpha), it then fires as per usual...this may be over powered, so penalties such as waiting longer for normal fire to resume, or having each of the first 2 shots only do 75% of their normal damage so they have 1.5x the alpha. Because it would be so fair for single minmatar battleships to be able to double-alpha for >10,000. What an idiotic idea. I'm saying no until you give hybrids and lasers overpowered activated abilities of their own.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: - Increase the tracking to be similar to, say, the slowest tracking equivilant compeditors guns. So you want the same tracking as other guns, or better, but you also want to keep a DPS edge. That seems very fair to people using rails/lasers. If by "DPS edge" you mean "lowest DPS of all long range turrets" then yes, it is fair. Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: - When an arty is activated for the first time it fires 2 shots (2.0x the current alpha), it then fires as per usual...this may be over powered, so penalties such as waiting longer for normal fire to resume, or having each of the first 2 shots only do 75% of their normal damage so they have 1.5x the alpha. Because it would be so fair for single minmatar battleships to be able to double-alpha for >10,000. What an idiotic idea. I'm saying no until you give hybrids and lasers overpowered activated abilities of their own. Yeah, it's not like extreme alpha is supposed to be characteristic of arty or anything. And it's not like HP has been boosted to the point where the effectiveness of arty's alpha strike would need to be reexamined.
The Speaker The Clue Factory	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:29:00 - [80] Minmatar battleships are laughable at the moment. Any sort of buff to either large projectile guns or the ships themselves would help.

Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:18:00 - [81] Quote: Yeah, it's not like extreme alpha is supposed to be characteristic of arty or anything. And it's not like HP has been boosted to the point where the effectiveness of arty's alpha strike would need to be reexamined. It hasn't been boosted to that point. >6k alpha is fine for now, and >10k would be idiotic and overpowered in fleet battles. Boost overall DPS a little if you must, and clip size, fine, but you can't have both superior DPS and tracking. I know your little mind struggles with this concept, but there is such a thing as considering how buffs will affect other races.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: Yeah, it's not like extreme alpha is supposed to be characteristic of arty or anything. And it's not like HP has been boosted to the point where the effectiveness of arty's alpha strike would need to be reexamined. It hasn't been boosted to that point. >6k alpha is fine for now, and >10k would be idiotic and overpowered in fleet battles. Boost overall DPS a little if you must, and clip size, fine, but you can't have both superior DPS and tracking. I know your little mind struggles with this concept, but there is such a thing as considering how buffs will affect other races. Say it with me: "Artillery have the worst DPS of long range turrets." See how hard that wasn't?
Zurin Arctus	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:41:00 - [83] Quote: Say it with me: "Artillery have the worst DPS of long range turrets." See how hard that wasn't? I'm not as talented as you are at lying. In fact I don't really even like it. Anyway, clearly, logic is not going to dissuade you. Go whine with your goon CSM's some more.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:14:00 - [84] Originally by: Zurin Arctus I'm not as talented as you are at lying. In fact I don't really even like it. Anyway, clearly, logic is not going to dissuade you. Go whine with your goon CSM's some more. Are you being willfully ignorant? Using "logic" only works if you're using facts, which in this case, you aren't.
Joudas Tritanium Workers Union	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Quote: Say it with me: "Artillery have the worst DPS of long range turrets." See how hard that wasn't? I'm not as talented as you are at lying. In fact I don't really even like it. Anyway, clearly, logic is not going to dissuade you. Go whine with your goon CSM's some more. Zuric are you god damn ******, i mean honestly your just like the drunk shouting in the middle of the village claiming his *** is full of phantoms and needs to be cleansed by nailing little kids...
Queen Toodlums	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:05:00 - [86] No need to say more. In support of this topic. Queen Toodlums
Roland 99 Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Zurin Arctus Considering how buffs will affect other races. You mean something like....say all the 80 K Pulse laser apoc's running around?
Veryez	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:35:00 - [88] There is no question 1400's are lagging behind other long ranged weapons. They were bad until the latest nerf of adding tracking scripts. Now 2 tracking computers are needed to boost the range up for fleet fights and no longer help tracking, which tremor (which you must use to compete at range) cripples. Yeah CCP you broke them, maybe you should look at a fix.
Zhongchao84	Posted - 2008.06.15 03:25:00 - [89] signed
strawberry alarmclock Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:12:00 - [90] i got around 1 k damage with my 1400mm i don't see the issue. \ not sighned we are noob mercs u will fear us laugh at us.

Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:06:00 - [91]
Atari Sakura Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:22:00 - [92] /signed
Dave RaithSphere Systematic Construction	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:40:00 - [93] i agree myself with the OP
Destovel	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:18:00 - [94] Arties need some loving! No question
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:56:00 - [95] /Signed Everything has already been said, artillery is just useless nowadays and 1400mm's are worst of all. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:18:00 - [96] Edited by: Transmaniacon on 16/06/2008 15:26:05 When I think of Artillery, I think of ordnance, something with a blast radius. Why not incorporate that idea into the game? Let me elaborate, While artillery has low tracking, compared to railguns and lasers, it could be compensated for by giving it a blast radius per-say. When its fired, if it hits the ship, then damage is inflicted normally, however, shots that would miss, or glance, could receive partial damage, so as to make artillery more like missiles. There could be an explosion velocity skill for projectile shells, and it could give the artillery the "always-hit" nature of missiles. Generally when artillery hits the general vicinity, its going to do some sort of damage to its intended target, and I would like to see this incorporated. The game dynamics support this with missiles already, so there is no huge physics requirement to work out. I would accept a RoF increase, to augment the nature of the weapons, but I think this could be a great addition, and really fulfill the role of artillery. Edit: In order to justify something exploding without actually making any contact, the charges could be timed. In fact, they could make a new set of projectile ammo for artillery, so AC and artillery have their each. (would save them from explaining why the same ammo works in 2 different ways)
Grann Thefauto Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:24:00 - [97] I fully agree. There isn't much reason to fit artillery on my cane or any other ship that I fly when I can get close to the same alpha with ACs and infinitely better tracking/dps that way. I get 1500 alpha with 720 T2 Artillery and 4 t2 gyros, 1200 Alpha with 425 T2 ACs and one t2 gyro on a hurricane with BC5. Completely absurd if you ask me, easily out damaged by my stealth bomber with minimal missile skills.
Maitsu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:05:00 - [98] Edited by: Maitsu on 16/06/2008 20:04:49 For people saying that since they are capless they should be a lot ****tier. Remove capboosters then maybe that would be true. Even then you'd be hard pressed to run out of cap in 90% of fleet fights. When people ask how to fit Tempests in GF they are often met with "Fit a tempest? Easy! Train Amarr."
Laughlyn Vaughns Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:53:00 - [99] Edited by: Laughlyn Vaughns on 16/06/2008 21:54:51 I agree that they do need sum lovin But if i remember right, wasnt the ammo clipsize of the Arties reduced as a balance to th ezero cap use in RmR patch? Am pretty sure there was sum balance done which has lead to the 1400 IIs only holding bout 10 rounds. Its really dreadfull cos when i used my Mach with 1400 IIs i'd get am NPC BS's tank *****ed only to run out of ammo and it'd sort itself out even ith arti spec lv4 and the extra gunery skills to lv5. Admittedly the NPC was Draben Kuvaki (or summat along them lines) but my over tanked "under powered" standard raven broke tank easily. If anything i would like to see the ammo capacity restored back to normal (double) or as OP mentioned the damage increase by 25% to give that extra punch for what is the worst ammo clip in the eve universe.
Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.16 23:44:00 - [100] Mos def. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**

Orb Lati ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 01:30:00 - [101] What i would love to see is to have arties only hold 1 shot, but quickly reload automatically from the cargo hold and continue firing. Then balance could be reworked on varying reload cycles. "We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:25:00 - [102] Minmatar battleships and/or large artillery needs to be rebalanced and brought back in line with the other races battleships due to the changes brought on by the introduction of scripts.
Wrayeth Inexorable Retribution	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:35:00 - [103] /signed Large artillery (and artillery in general) needs significant help. Large clip sizes or universal ammo sizes and more alpha, for starters. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Zeminy The Knights Templar Pure.	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:29:00 - [104] I agree. ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Rane Javoke Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.17 10:04:00 - [105] Artillery having the lowest dps of all long range turrets sits fine with me tbh, since it fits minmatar "philosophy" to forego damage for mobility and hit & run tactics (i.e. high alpha to quickly pop target and get away). After the hp boost, the said concept doesn't apply anymore, so i'd very much appreciate and recommend a boost to damage modifiers and a nerf to rof in order to keep dps where they are(and small clips won't bother us then since they will take longer to go "click"). Range and tracking are fine IMO, as admittedly projectiles are not the most advanced weapons in new eden. To rectify this, and offer fleet snipers some love, maybe change the tempest to 5% dmg/lvl, 5% optimal/lvl in order to fill the sniper niche and rectify the optimal nerf scripts caused. my 2 isk. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth PatchesOnly by 17 bytes!
no013 Stormwolf Holdings LLC	Posted - 2008.06.17 14:26:00 - [106] Agree Artillery cannons = Worst Dps, tracking, range and ammo cap. No cap... Why do we need cap for anything els if your sniping.
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.06.17 23:16:00 - [107] Boost Alpha Considerably Nerf rate of fire a bit This translates to: 25%-75% more alpha 2%-5% more DPS Nerfed ROF 3rd tier would be nice too, but thats just me dreaming. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Hortoken Wolfbrother Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.18 01:12:00 - [108] 1400mms are terrible. Having both a char that uses them and a highly spec'd apoc....... I feel ******** in a 1400mm ship. 1400mms have like the worst fitting, the worst range, the worst dps, the worst tracking. And at sniping ranges (160km), the apoc does almost as much alpha. Artis need something.
Kraken Kill Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.18 01:47:00 - [109] You cant fit 6x T2 1400s on a Tempest. That screams Broken. Then you need 2x Sensor boosters to lock as far as the tremor can hit, and another two tracking enhancers/Comps to hit about 140 optimal. Then if you want Gyros ontop of that, along with a fitting mod, well you have no tank, and the tracking is entirely awful with Tremor, only able to hit stationary battleships.
Aneu Angellus Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2008.06.18 02:26:00 - [110] ya ________________

Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.06.18 02:39:00 - [111] Originally by: Kraken Kill You cant fit 6x T2 1400s on a Tempest. That screams Broken. Then you need 2x Sensor boosters to lock as far as the tremor can hit, and another two tracking enhancers/Comps to hit about 140 optimal. Then if you want Gyros ontop of that, along with a fitting mod, well you have no tank, and the tracking is entirely awful with Tremor, only able to hit stationary battleships. this and then some. don't think the mechanics can be fixed until a role for them is settled on. what's arty FOR? once that's decided, the needed changes will be clearer. ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.18 13:04:00 - [112] Originally by: Myrkala Boost Alpha Considerably Nerf rate of fire a bit This translates to: 25%-75% more alpha 2%-5% more DPS Nerfed ROF 3rd tier would be nice too, but thats just me dreaming. This would be ideal change, and I would love to see a third tier of artillery, but unless the fitting requirements are changed significantly, theres no way in hell a bigger gun would fit. Trans imagines an 1800mm Siege Cannon..., then thinks of 8 on a maelstrom...,...
Kyle Welder	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:39:00 - [113]
Greyhair	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:03:00 - [114]
Bahamir	Posted - 2008.06.18 22:28:00 - [115] /sing
Felix Dzerzhinsky Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.19 07:01:00 - [116] not supported. If the damage mod is increaced, then the clip size stays the same and ROF goes down. That means you get your alpha, but the dps stays the same (you are supposed to have the lowest dps in the game.) This I would support because its balance. If the clip size is increaced, then the ROF goes down and Damage Mod remain the same since reloading is balanced with ROF. If ROF is increaced, then the Damage mod needs to come down, and the clip remains the same - but this option makes it a gimped hybrid turret. Pick one, not all. As for capless. . .I'm sorry, its a big deal. You have high alpha (the hp boost affected everyone) and a good selection of damage types against armor tanked or armor HP-Buffed (which is most ships in fleet) ships. Yes, 1400s are sub-par, but they can too easily become too good. The above selection is what I would work with, which do you choise? (I would pick higher damage mod myself) ---- GO BLUE!!
Junko Ni'Kan	Posted - 2008.06.19 07:40:00 - [117] Signed
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.19 11:57:00 - [118] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky not supported. If the damage mod is increaced, then the clip size stays the same and ROF goes down. That means you get your alpha, but the dps stays the same (you are supposed to have the lowest dps in the game.) This I would support because its balance. If the clip size is increaced, then the ROF goes down and Damage Mod remain the same since reloading is balanced with ROF. If ROF is increaced, then the Damage mod needs to come down, and the clip remains the same - but this option makes it a gimped hybrid turret. Pick one, not all. As for capless. . .I'm sorry, its a big deal. You have high alpha (the hp boost affected everyone) and a good selection of damage types against armor tanked or armor HP-Buffed (which is most ships in fleet) ships. Yes, 1400s are sub-par, but they can too easily become too good. The above selection is what I would work with, which do you choise? (I would pick higher damage mod myself) If there were to be a bigger alpha, the RoF would be increased. I think some of us may have been interpreting the wording differently. Rate of Fire could mean to some the time inbetween, thus making it higher, makes the guns slower. However, I think you are thinking of it as a literal rate, of which higher means faster firing. Anyway, the general consensus thus far is either better tracking, or a bigger alpha with a slower firing time. The DPS would thus remain the same.
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 13:55:00 - [119] make the rof extremly fast and give it a 4 clip size. This would be an alternative to more damage and slower rof. It would then have high burst damage and need to reload or have high alpha and then a long time between shots. why can't 1200mm be burst guns and 1400mm be high high alpha guns?
Bambi Existentialist Collective	Posted - 2008.06.19 14:43:00 - [120] I havent read every single post in this thread, but one thing people ssem to be missing out is that Min ships, especially the BS are a little more flexible in thier tanking ability than other BS. You have the option to go for an active shield or armor tank, I'd like to see someone armor tank a Raven, although someone probably flies one. maybe this is why Arties are missing the Dev Lovin atm EVE is dead, long live EVE!

procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.19 15:14:00 - [121] you can shield tank domis. passive sheild tank them at that. i fail to see the issue. nobody is arguing that the guns should be more dps. just that they need their alpha ability back so long term they are still the same gun. less actually as there is no way to decrease reload time.
Hortoken Wolfbrother Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.19 17:12:00 - [122] Originally by: Bambi I havent read every single post in this thread, but one thing people ssem to be missing out is that Min ships, especially the BS are a little more flexible in thier tanking ability than other BS. You have the option to go for an active shield or armor tank, I'd like to see someone armor tank a Raven, although someone probably flies one. maybe this is why Arties are missing the Dev Lovin atm The only tank a tempest is fitting with 1400s on is a hardcore tank of reactor controls.
Rane Javoke Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.19 19:43:00 - [123] Originally by: Hortoken Wolfbrother The only tank a tempest is fitting with 1400s on is a hardcore tank of reactor controls. Lies! I for one fly a 1400mm-gunned, large shield booster mission Pest. (mostly because a providence overtook me Maelstorm on the gate once )
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:15:00 - [124] /signed... 1400mm needs to be boosted... I am not training even for minmatar BS & Large Projectiles.... until 1400mm gets boosted, I keep skilling/thinking about caldari/amarr BS's... Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Darth Vaders Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:51:00 - [125]
Marn Prestoc The Black Mamba's	Posted - 2008.06.23 13:02:00 - [126] Might as well copy this post from the Ships and Mods forum that looks at 1400mm's. Originally by: "Marn Prestoc" Just a few diagrams to show the dps/range and volley damage and what a couple of the more basic changes suggested would do. I used Maelstrom against pretty standard Mega, Apoc and Rokh fittings. Dps against Range - Here we can see how the range sucks even using 3 range modules. We also can see how having more falloff makes very little difference when optimals are 150km+ and falloff is only 35km. Dps with reloads against Range - If we're going to bring arguements about cap use into this then this should be the comparison used as weapons will have to reload before cap using weapons/ships have cap issues. I think this one shows the difference between the minmatar snipers and the Megathron very well, practically same dps with less range, tracking and harder fitting. Both of the above images show a simple change of adding a falloff bonus to Tremor of +50% that helps the range a lot, but in a minmatar way. They also show a swap of Maelstroms ROF bonus to DMG, this isn't a swap that keeps DPS the same (would need a bigger DMG bonus) but you can see in volley damage against time the effect it has. I think this demonstrates to me that the DPS needs to be kept the same or increased slightly while increasing the volley damage. Slowing the ROF will reduce the problem of the clip size but it should still be increased by a few shots imo. My proposal for CCP to test would be to... - Tremor: Increase falloff by 40% (x1.4). - 1400mm T2 arty: Increase damage by +25% (x1.25). Increase ROF by +23% (x1.23) slowing it down. Just to be clear SLOWING rof DECREASES dps. Increase clip size by 2 shots taking 10 shots to 12. This would produce: Dps against Range - You can see a slight DPS increase along with a real benifit in the new increased falloff range. Dps with Reloads against Range - With a slower ROF and 2 more shots the dps decrease due to reloading is reduced. Volley damage against Time - We can see the increase in volley damage and with the ROF not being slowed to much the time that volley damage is ahead is increased. Just a quick suggestion really with clear numbers and effect they have, if anything more i'd like the clip size increased more. -
Siddy Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:57:00 - [127] not signed While the 1400mms are brokn, your proposion is not radical enought to un-homogenise this wepon from the sea of DPS-is-the-king sewagepool CCP nees to go nuts on these. Out-of-the-box 3000 hit/gun of raw damage from tempest! that you x6 and then divide by resistances: 9000k alpha is what i need! You can nerf the traking, rof and your grandmther, i dont care, ill overcome that. Right now there is nothing in 1400mms that make it worth my while by overcoming it allredy craptastik tracking, RoF and DPS. NOTHNG. 1.25x will not do. Even with that, the current HP buffer tanks can take it. What MINMATARS need, its alpha! ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty...
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:48:00 - [128] 3000 a hit seems a bit much, but I do agree that Minmatar should be the alpha kings. And yea, I wouldnt mind waiting like 20 seconds between shots to be able to unleash that sort of volley
bawb2 Absolutely No Retreat Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:59:00 - [129] Arty needs some love.
Laughlyn Vaughns Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2008.06.24 22:55:00 - [130] I did have a small thought earlier lookin at the minamatr battleships. If its a good alpha ship we're lookin at then maybe change the Maelstroms RoF bonus to a 5% damage one? That way none the other ships become overpowered (altho they coudl do with a bit of love) but as a first startin point having 8 x 1400mm IIs with 5% per level damage would give a nice alpha compared to what it is at present. its not going to solve all the problems but its an option that could be installed relativly easily am sure since its just one ship becomin slightly more powerful, afterall they are supposed to be best alpha/lousy dps. Maybe add a few more damage points to each ammo types damage types. it only needs 1 on each damage type and that would increase damage consiberably the more skilled u are. a small example Fusion does 32 EXP 32 + 25% damage = 40 x11 damage mod (approx 1400s on my phoon) = 440 now change that to 33EXP 33 + 25% damage = 41.25 x11 = 453.75. so yeah just its not a vast difference but you get what i mean, CCP can sort the figures out. But my theory is that the more skilled u are then the more the percentage is factored in and ur rewarded with a bigger damage output, like (i believe) it shud be.

Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.06.25 02:22:00 - [131] Originally by: Siddy CCP needs to go nuts on these. ... What MINMATARS need, its alpha! your newsletter, i will subscribe opinion, thread-watchers: is this specific enough (current alpha values are useless vs. current ship stats, boost arty alpha) to warrant its own thread, or should we continue to show support here (help arty in some as yet unspecified way)? ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.25 12:16:00 - [132] Originally by: Bad Harlequin Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 25/06/2008 02:42:01 Originally by: Siddy CCP needs to go nuts on these. ... What MINMATARS need, its alpha! your newsletter, i will subscribe opinion, thread-watchers: is this specific enough (current alpha values are useless vs. current ship stats, boost arty alpha) to warrant its own thread, or should we continue to show support here (help arty in some as yet unspecified way)? edit: i fully support what i glimpse of Siddy's idea of ship-shaking, duct-tape unwrapping, rust-flaking shuddering volleys of horrifically-sized shells that rattle your teeth when you fire 'em even thru the pod fluid... but may or may not miss completely, hit the guy next to you, only get fired once every other week or some combination thereof. i think snipers can have a role with massive alpha strikes in finishing off wounded targets or suddenly adding an extra whomp to a target who previously thought he was tanking just fine. maybe. discuss? Exactly, this sort of damage is what artillery needs. It will make it feared, and actually fulfill its role. Artilery shoots huge projectiles really far, and while may not be accurate, makes up for it in shear power. And about the maelstrom bonus change, I think thats a great idea. 3/4 times, people are fitting artillery on the maelstrom, so give it some support towards alpha, and the damage bonus would help that. Losing the RoF bonus would lower DPS, and the damage bonus would boost Alpha, keeping the ship balanced.
Siddy Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.06.25 21:13:00 - [133] Edited by: Siddy on 25/06/2008 21:16:06 Originally by: Bad Harlequin Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 25/06/2008 02:42:01 Originally by: Siddy CCP needs to go nuts on these. ... What MINMATARS need, its alpha! your newsletter, i will subscribe T3h REAL 1400 thread Or "How is see minmatar race shuld be" ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty...
Sir Substance	Posted - 2008.06.25 21:26:00 - [134] i am flying an abaddon instead of a maelstrom for just this reason. theres a lot of minni stuff that needs fixing. the tempest is borked, 1400's are so outdated i havent trained large projectiles yet, and the only useful BS minni has is the typhoon.
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.06.26 02:54:00 - [135] Minmatar Large projectiles in general need a serious review. Especially the 1400mm Arty.
Ripp Tyde Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.26 03:11:00 - [136] signed Ripp Tyde
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.06.26 03:53:00 - [137] My friend swapped from a Maelstrom to a Raven. With minimal cruise missile skills, he's much more capable of actually killing things. Even in PvE, we need some love for artillery. Lower ROF, higher damage multiplier, and fix the "tracking". How do 1400mm track so slow? A team of Brutors with wrenches out there undoing the mounting, moving it to the side, and refastening the gun to the ship after a coffee break?
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.26 13:46:00 - [138] Originally by: Mara Rinn My friend swapped from a Maelstrom to a Raven. With minimal cruise missile skills, he's much more capable of actually killing things. Even in PvE, we need some love for artillery. Lower ROF, higher damage multiplier, and fix the "tracking". How do 1400mm track so slow? A team of Brutors with wrenches out there undoing the mounting, moving it to the side, and refastening the gun to the ship after a coffee break? LOL...I could totally see some guys sitting on the ship, getting the order to shoot the enemy, and out there with the cranks adjusting the gun pivot, "Hows that look?" "Hmm, more to the left...".
Laughlyn Vaughns Lagos-Vaughn Industries	Posted - 2008.06.26 16:32:00 - [139] Originally by: Transmaniacon Originally by: Mara Rinn My friend swapped from a Maelstrom to a Raven. With minimal cruise missile skills, he's much more capable of actually killing things. Even in PvE, we need some love for artillery. Lower ROF, higher damage multiplier, and fix the "tracking". How do 1400mm track so slow? A team of Brutors with wrenches out there undoing the mounting, moving it to the side, and refastening the gun to the ship after a coffee break? LOL...I could totally see some guys sitting on the ship, getting the order to shoot the enemy, and out there with the cranks adjusting the gun pivot, "Hows that look?" "Hmm, more to the left...". lol yeah, u could probs imagine it on sum old "Carry On Minmatar" film, moving the cannon left, right, upand down lol.
JaxxFunk	Posted - 2008.06.26 18:30:00 - [140] Supported... The 1400mm artillary was never brought in line with the others ever since its alpha was negated due to the hp buff. You aint seen me...right

ErrhuhBlaman	Posted - 2008.06.26 18:34:00 - [141] /signed but i believe all large projectiles need to be boosted.
Garr Anders Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:33:00 - [142] Its not only the 1400. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=801402 /signed ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.06.26 23:00:00 - [143] Originally by: Siddy "How is see minmatar race shuld be" WAAAAAAAGH, baby. ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --
Cutter Isaacson Hollow World Mining Corporation QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.06.27 11:52:00 - [144] Having just been bought a Typhoon, and gotten myself some brand new 1400mm Galliums to go on it, Im worried that I have taken the wrong path. Anything that can be done to boost Minmatar weapons/ships gets a thumbs up from me. Originally by: Verone Sweet baby jesus and his holy mother of pwn.
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.06.27 22:23:00 - [145] Originally by: Cutter Isaacson Having just been bought a Typhoon, and gotten myself some brand new 1400mm Galliums to go on it, Im worried that I have taken the wrong path. Anything that can be done to boost Minmatar weapons/ships gets a thumbs up from me. AC's and torps. or, 1200mm scouts and cruise for a little more survivability through range.
TheCraftyHippo Vanguard Frontiers Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.27 23:02:00 - [146] Boost Minmitar! Please don't shoot me. I'll explode.
Rexy DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:44:00 - [147] what happened to the project ammo buff <unusual big structure 4tw>
Atlanticpyro The Space BorderLine Diabolic Paradox	Posted - 2008.07.04 05:34:00 - [148]
Roger Douglas Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:16:00 - [149] Agree. 1400mm's have needed a bit of rebalancing for a long time.
Karga Uga Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:42:00 - [150] The biggest problem with 1400mm arties in a fleet fight is it's ammo capactiy. Once the lag monster shows up you don't get to reload anymore, therefore your 12 rounds of Tremor L per gun are all you get to shoot at the enemy. A buff up to 24 rounds with a slight increase in cycle time to keep DPS the same would be very beneficial.

Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:42:00 - [151] I agree that they should be looked at. However, I would be surprised if CCP agree to boost their alpha strike significantly considering Oveur's past stance that the importance of alpha strike had to be degraded.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:14:00 - [152] Edited by: NanDe YaNen on 17/07/2008 17:16:46 Quote: is there a sub-cap insta-damage strong alpha ship? Support lowering RoF and raise damage to compensate. Trade some of the weakness for extra strength in the alpha. (also softens the clip issue, but really shouldn't matter to an alpha-strike boat) Against raising RoF. RoF is about DPS, and this issue is related to the 1400mm arty losing its place in the sun, not needing to be the best piece of long-range weaponry for fleet slugfest. Support damage increase in general. Increased damage helps with DPS, but mainly is about increasing the alpha. Support giving Maelstrom a damage bonus instead of a RoF bonus, making it fit its racial turrets strong points better. Tempest or Maelstrom should be able to out-alpha an Abaddon. As it stands, they can't, and the Paladin actually takes the BS crown, but doubt it would get used this way. In order for mini's to be good hit-and-run attackers, they need their alpha strike capability. Fit them with inertia stabs, polycarbs, cloaks, and sensor boosters. They can't survive any time in the overview at all, but would have the capability to hit-and-run against superior numbers, which would go a long way to providing a tactical solution for a smaller force to attack a larger fleet.
Pavlinka	Posted - 2008.07.17 20:53:00 - [153] Pavlinka & Pavlinecka
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.07.17 22:24:00 - [154] I read back through the HP increase thread. Oveur's stance was essentially that longer combat is more interesting and reducing the ability to alpha down another ship is a solution to insta-gank combat, which was horridly in favor of the attacker. This was before the 25% HP buff and damage mod stacking penalties had been implemented. While, I can understand Oveur's stance that ships shouldn't be getting alpha-ganked on the grounds that it essentially avoids engaging in any real sense of the word in favor of a complete hit-and-run attack that leaves no options to the defender, I must point out other qualities of alpha-gank combat: While sufficient firepower to alpha-gank can allow an attacker to destroy one target and repeatedly re-engage, always with the advantage of high alpha-strike, the fact remains that they must re-engage repeatedly to continue scoring victories, meaning that the defender has not chosen to flee while the attacker disengaged. In addition, while the mechanics of alpha-gank lead to quick victories over lone targets with no chance for a flat-footed defender to respond, when outnumbered by enough ships to be alpha-ganked, the case is usually that they were completely screwed to begin with. Alpha-strike or not they didn't have a prayer. Furthermore, the alpha-gank maneuver, being balanced against lower DPS after the first volley, is a combat tactic that can only work by repeatedly re-engaging, even at the fleet level, making it absolutely unfavorable for a fleet focused on strong alpha-strike ships to remain engaged and providing opportunities for escape. High DPS gangs are for overview domination combat, where you desire to stay engaged as much as possible, fully aware that the enemy will fall behind quickly and become routed. The obvious balance inherent in mechanics and strategy is that a fleet for protecting cap-ships will focus on DPS since they do not have the capability to disengage quickly, whereas a fleet that is not fielding cap-ships (a non sovereignty changing fleet) would be better served to focus on alpha-strike capability and mobility. high-alpha gangs (which by nature of the size of alpha's required have a maximum number of ships in a unit that can contribute) can be a workable strategy even with inferior numbers and will also function well with separate units in your fleet instead of one huge blob. In conclusion, because of the stance of CCP that the HP buff would make battle more interesting, and since CCP has so far left alpha-strikes in a state of under-balance, they must in fact believe that large DPS gangs, which must operate as a single large blob unit, engage continuously, favor the deployment of capital fleets, and attempt to dominate the overview, are in fact more interesting than splitting up and using tactical maneuvers that require more thought than "be bigger than my enemy." I have to ask a single rhetorical question summing up the most obvious contradiction in CCP's stance: If the alpha-strike was supposed to be nerfed to make combat more interesting, why is it that there is a ship in this game whose sole combat role is to deliver an alpha-strike powerful enough to wipe out every ship on overview with less than 75k EHP? I rest my case. I'll reiterate. I support a strong buff of the artillery as an alpha-strike weapon. With no stacking bonuses on damage mods anymore, it needs a large damage buff to pull ahead of other weapon systems. The trade-off is lower DPS through slower RoF and a consequential need to re-engage to remain tactically favorable, forcing artillery users, namely the Minmitar BS's (.....of course?) to act as hit-and-run fighters. I think it entirely appropriate in this game and the behavior to be expected of the race that was supposed to have fought a rebellion against a technologically and militarily superior empire. 終わりや
Akiba Penrose The Movement	Posted - 2008.07.20 21:25:00 - [155]
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.07.20 21:46:00 - [156] A good point well made by the OP.
Xyzibit	Posted - 2008.07.22 05:21:00 - [157] supported... i used to have a machariel but since the dps and the reload stuff after 10 shots is well .... ....... ..... ..... end of it ... i bought a nightmare
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2008.07.22 05:51:00 - [158] Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 22/07/2008 05:53:14 Not supported. Like is said in all the anti nano threads.. Dont like it, train a different race. Tough cookies. Or maybe bring all your other ship classes down a notch or two so when a roaming gang enters the system it is'nt all minmatar ships...then, maybe then minmatar BS's will be deserving of a boost. You've got the best ships for all forms of PvP except fleet fights... take your cake and enjoy it.
Shadi Dee	Posted - 2008.07.22 09:07:00 - [159] tracking sucks, checked range sucks, check alpha sucks, checked VERY small clip size, checked fitting issues, checked (mwd + 6x1400 on a tempest requires a grid upgrade by default) arties + lag = usless guns, after 10 rounds of emp you can go make cofee. I support this? HELL YEAH
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.07.22 14:14:00 - [160] Agreed, but not only for large arty. For all artillery. Railguns do more DPS from greater distances and have 1/3 the ROF. Okay, so they use cap, but when it comes to long range combat cap is not so much an issue.

Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.07.22 14:55:00 - [161] One needs WAY more than a 5% clip increase. 5% would increase your ammo count on EMP L from 10 rounds to 10.5. Artillery needs to be boosted in all ways. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Calla Vee	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:14:00 - [162] I agree that artillery should be looked at. I don't agree with the solutions that many of the players have suggested. Some of these demands seem to suggest that arty should hit DPS as hard as missiles. No "hitbox" style weapon should do the same damage as missiles, not without the same kind of hefty drawbacks that missiles (especially big missiles) suffer in PVP.
Lamonadetomare Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.23 08:01:00 - [163] boost alpha of 1400mm make them useful for something
Karga Uga Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.23 10:07:00 - [164] Edited by: Karga Uga on 23/07/2008 10:15:58 There is nothing wrong with Arty DPS. A 6 x 1400mm Tempest with 2 Gyros does comparable DPS with a 7 x 425mm Megathron with 2 Magstabs. The capless advangtage of the arties is balanced against the rails better tracking. The single biggest problem an arty user faces is lag. As has previously been pointed out once your guns are empty, they're empty and that's it. The above Tempest can fire 12 volleys of Tremor L for 3287 damage per volley. That's 39444 damage per reload. The MegaT gets 40 volleys at 1747 damage per volley, which equals 69880. In a laggy fleet situation this means that a Tempest can only be relied on to do 56% of the damage a Megathron is capable of putting out. Also the Tempest will be out of ammo in 124 seconds, whereas a Mega can continue to shoot for 224 seconds. Meaning a Mega will be useful for a lot longer to the fleet. I appreciate that this isn't the place for comparing ships effectiveness, but there is something wrong with the Arty mechanic when lag sets in. Currently CCP can't fix the lag, but they could ease the pain for the Minmatar BS pilots.
Andreij Sooh Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.23 15:58:00 - [165] Edited by: Andreij Sooh on 23/07/2008 15:59:31 Just throwing it in here, but what about making it so that when overloading the artillery pieces you get a damage boost instead of the ROF or whatever is on now, and only when fitted to minnie ships (or make it a bonus of the minmatar artillery ships, though that could upset bonus balance of ships). This way you have burst damage but repeated use of it would break the guns and you would need to repair them. I am not a wiz at these mechanics but just throwing it in here. Regards, A edit: oh, and a tiny little bit more range bonus would be nice on the ships that are supposed to use artillery.
Raquel Trotter	Posted - 2008.07.29 22:18:00 - [166] /signed Seems everything minmatar is bottom of the pile now
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:13:00 - [167] This balancing issue must not be forgotten. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:22:00 - [168] Don't use it. Probably never will but from the stats I have seen from many fights with Arty ships in the ranks I tend to agree something needs to be done for the poor ducttapers. ---
Berendas	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:31:00 - [169] /not signed
TimGascoigne	Posted - 2008.07.31 23:54:00 - [170] the optimal range on this system is pathetic and it needs to be addressed.

Hottie McGee GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:04:00 - [171] Originally by: TimGascoigne the optimal range on this system is pathetic and it needs to be addressed. i agree, but didn't see this thread and ended up writing my own
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.08.01 13:14:00 - [172] Edited by: Transmaniacon on 01/08/2008 13:15:26 1400mm Artillery: Increase the damage modifier, producing volley damage of 7000+ (w/ T2 guns) Decrease the RoF slighty to maintain a consistent DPS value 1200mm Artillery: Increase tracking to make it comparable to railguns and lasers Increase RoF slighty to add some DPS, and allow for better gang use. Reducing range and increasing clip size could help create a better mid range weapon, leaving the range to railguns, and DPS to lasers. I feel these changes are very appropriate and would allow for more effective artillery. The boost to damage on the 1400mm guns is not enough to negate the recent HP boost, but enough to reinstate Minmatar as the alpha kings. Currently, lasers and missiles can match and exceed artillery alpha, leaving artillery weapons with no defining factor. Railguns Range Lasers DPS Artillery Artillery needs a role, and it currently is outclassed in every respect.
Elhohim	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:02:00 - [173] I posted that in another thread and tough it would be better here maybe "ong time lurker 1st time poster casual gamer yada yada... here s for the background. now I was reading one of the numerous minmatar tread and as usual(always) the arty subject ..; then I had an epiphany, a mental sound picture of what I d like arty to be BLam blam blam blam...then the sound of silence - rince repeat - how about keeping the clip size the same and increase the rof, and by increase I mean like faster than AC. that would make some kind of huge salvo giving back some alpha strike-like capacity, I don t mean real alpha strike BUT if the 10 round clip is emptied in something like 20 sec ...it s almost an alpha no? the small clip keeping the dps in check because of reload. wouln t that give some potential for hit and run to the matari and....just think of the beautifull sound Razz that said I plaid guilty of NOT having run any numbers so? am I the only nutter that would like the idea ? edited for clarity and to better explain myself and yes maybe I should have posted in the other threads...the length of it scared me"
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.04 23:21:00 - [174] We don't need to revise or boost the Space Artillery, because it's pretty ridiculous to start with. I propose switching artillery for an alternative, more plausible weapons system, useful for hit-and-run strikes. Basically, one where the bullets are coated with compressed waste slag from the ship's reactor. Upon impact and explosion, superheated nuclear slag is scattered across the enemy ship's hull, causing a great load of residual damage over time. This sort of 'slag cannon' weapon would still retain the powerful single strike of artillery, but introduce a strong, plausible reason for executing single strikes and then drawing back to keep from taking damage.
Blitz'Krieg Caldari Demon Theory OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 01:34:00 - [175] this is insane. A tempest can fire as fire for as much dps as any of the other races fleet battleships. At 250km there dps in practically the same. If it must have a buff I think the only real argument is based upon clip size. That imo tho is countered by the alpha.
Captain Narmio Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.08.05 05:54:00 - [176] Originally by: Blitz'Krieg this is insane. A tempest can fire as fire for as much dps as any of the other races fleet battleships. At 250km there dps in practically the same. If it must have a buff I think the only real argument is based upon clip size. That imo tho is countered by the alpha. What? Got some numbers to support that, champ? Because I've got some numbers that say otherwise. For just a small sample, see: this thread and every other thread on the issue. Also, as everybody is saying in this and many other threads, alpha means damn near crap all post HP-buff and Trimark/Extender rigs.
Karga Uga Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 12:09:00 - [177] Edited by: Karga Uga on 05/08/2008 12:09:28 Originally by: Elhohim then I had an epiphany, a mental sound picture of what I d like arty to be BLam blam blam blam...then the sound of silence - rince repeat - how about keeping the clip size the same and increase the rof, and by increase I mean like faster than AC. If you wanted it to be more like RL artilliary you'd change the clip size to be equal to the amount of ammo in your hold and make the ROF something like 20 seconds between shots. This would reflect the guns being reloaded after every shot. But that idea is fairly stupid also. As previously mentioned, the DPS is ok on the 1400mm, but the Alpha is lagging far, far behind. Also there is the fact that the clip size is not fit for purpose when the laggy state of most fleet fights is taken into account.
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.08.05 14:34:00 - [178] Edited by: Transmaniacon on 05/08/2008 14:34:54 Originally by: Blitz'Krieg this is insane. A tempest can fire as fire for as much dps as any of the other races fleet battleships. At 250km there dps in practically the same. If it must have a buff I think the only real argument is based upon clip size. That imo tho is countered by the alpha. It helps to actually pilot the ship before making false statements like these... Artillery has the lowest DPS of the fleet ships, and the worst range. A tempest needs 2 sensor booster IIs with scripts to lock out about 190km, whereas megathrons, rokhs, and apocs can all lock well above 200km, some even with only 1 sensor booster. Artillery has the worst tracking of the bunch, meaning the chances of all its rounds hitting are slim. Additionally, artillery has the shortest range, getting an optimal of about 160km with Tremor, and as most fleet fights are at about 180km+, the tempest is fighting in falloff, reducing its DPS even further. And your comment about alpha, Amarr can out-alpha Minmatar easily, with much more DPS, range, and tracking.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:14:00 - [179] Originally by: Elhohim that would make some kind of huge salvo giving back some alpha strike-like capacity, I don t mean real alpha strike BUT if the 10 round clip is emptied in something like 20 sec ...it s almost an alpha no? A variant of your idea: Modern artillery systems actually fire their shells at different speeds so that all rounds from a single volly arrive at the same time. Why not make the arty do the same thing. The in-game behavior would looks something like your clip empties into space (perhaps over 20-30 seconds) with no immediate effect. However on the last round from the clip the damage is all calculated at once and applied. This would have the same DPS over time but would apply it in one big scary block which gives little time for shield/armor regen.
NanDe YaNen The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:21:00 - [180] Just get it so that the alpha can top 8k at least. Tach's will put out 6k no problem. Nobody's asking to be the best all-around weapon. Give a Tempest an 8k alpha and suddenly mini BS's will have a niche as best hit-and-run fighters. Nano-tempest ftw.

Blitz'Krieg Caldari Demon Theory OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.05 15:30:00 - [181] Originally by: Captain Narmio Originally by: Blitz'Krieg this is insane. A tempest can fire as fire for as much dps as any of the other races fleet battleships. At 250km there dps in practically the same. If it must have a buff I think the only real argument is based upon clip size. That imo tho is countered by the alpha. What? Got some numbers to support that, champ? Because I've got some numbers that say otherwise. For just a small sample, see: this thread and every other thread on the issue. Also, as everybody is saying in this and many other threads, alpha means damn near crap all post HP-buff and Trimark/Extender rigs. Tempest: Lows: 3 Gyro II's 1 tracking enhancer Ii 1 reactor control II 1 1600 plate Mids: 2 tracking computer II's (optimal) 3 sensor booster II's (range) Highs: 6 1400 II's tremor. Rigs: 2 proj locus Does 356 dps (max skill) @ 250km cap stable with a tracking of 0.003 Apoc: Lows: 3 heat sink II's 2 tracking enhancer II's 1 reactor control II 1 1600 plate Mids: 3 sensor booster II's (optimal) 1 cap recharger II Highs: 7 tach II's Rigs: 1 CCC 1 energy locus Does 351 dps (max skills) @ 250km cap stable tracking of 0.005 Rohk: Lows: 3 mag stabs 1 RC II 1 1600 Mids: 2 tracking computer II 2 Sensor booster II 2 cap recharger II Highs: 8 425 II Rigs: 2 hybrid burst Does 334 dps (max skills) @ 250km cap stable tracking of 0.003 Megathron: Lows: 3 mag stab II's 3 tracking enhancer II's 1 1600 mids: 3 sensor booster II's 1 tracking computerII highs: 7 425 II Rigs: 2 hybrid locus Does 351 dps (max skills) @ 250km NOT cap stable tracking of 0.005
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.05 16:16:00 - [182] Originally by: Blitz'Krieg Originally by: Captain Narmio Originally by: Blitz'Krieg this is insane. A tempest can fire as fire for as much dps as any of the other races fleet battleships. At 250km there dps in practically the same. If it must have a buff I think the only real argument is based upon clip size. That imo tho is countered by the alpha. What? Got some numbers to support that, champ? Because I've got some numbers that say otherwise. For just a small sample, see: this thread and every other thread on the issue. Also, as everybody is saying in this and many other threads, alpha means damn near crap all post HP-buff and Trimark/Extender rigs. Tempest: Lows: 3 Gyro II's 1 tracking enhancer Ii 1 reactor control II 1 1600 plate Mids: 2 tracking computer II's (optimal) 3 sensor booster II's (range) Highs: 6 1400 II's tremor. Rigs: 2 proj locus Does 356 dps (max skill) @ 250km cap stable with a tracking of 0.003 Apoc: Lows: 3 heat sink II's 2 tracking enhancer II's 1 reactor control II 1 1600 plate Mids: 3 sensor booster II's (optimal) 1 cap recharger II Highs: 7 tach II's Rigs: 1 CCC 1 energy locus Does 351 dps (max skills) @ 250km cap stable tracking of 0.005 Rohk: Lows: 3 mag stabs 1 RC II 1 1600 Mids: 2 tracking computer II 2 Sensor booster II 2 cap recharger II Highs: 8 425 II Rigs: 2 hybrid burst Does 334 dps (max skills) @ 250km cap stable tracking of 0.003 Megathron: Lows: 3 mag stab II's 3 tracking enhancer II's 1 1600 mids: 3 sensor booster II's 1 tracking computerII highs: 7 425 II Rigs: 2 hybrid locus Does 351 dps (max skills) @ 250km NOT cap stable tracking of 0.005 Dude you are just flat out wrong. If my tempest gets 350 dps at 250 km, then that means at 200km, im getting 700 dps because optimal + falloff = 50% hits. So, my pest setup with 3 locus rigs and two tracking computers gets an optimal of 200km with 350 dps over ten shots. There is no way in hell you can get 250km optimal with a tempest. Indeed, dropping my 3 gyros for 3 tracking enhancers would only get me to 228km and give me 220 dps. w00t way to fly the ship. And saying that everybody performs the same at 250km so nobody should worry again shows that you are merely an eft warrior and don't know a damn thing you are talking about. Nobody warps a fleet to 250km and says "start shooting" even warping to 200km is rare. Most engagements are 160km - 180km. Ok, you provided tracking numbers, do you know what it means? Bring up your eft and create a dps graph against a caracal. Put your tempest in there, put your apoc in there and set the speed to 70% for the attackers. Why is the apoc insanely better in this graph? It has superior range, tracking, and is SLOWER meaning its aligned, instawarp speed is slower than the tempest's resulting even better tracking.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.05 17:34:00 - [183] Not to mention that you're all pretty much tinkering with rather extreme ranges here, and that while very much intended for fleet, even Battleships shouldn't be so single-purposed or inflexible as to all fall into a universal 'big long-range paperweight' category.
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.08.05 22:07:00 - [184] artillery are a joke _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2008.08.05 22:27:00 - [185] .
Draugrist Ithil the oNe Academy	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:09:00 - [186] 1400s (and other projectiles )need some love
Alhambra Rainwalker Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:19:00 - [187] Support for clip size increase or dam boost + rof decrease. Artilleries need to reload way too often. As for other changes I¦d like to have fusion as highest damage ammo and little bit higher damage values for large projectile rounds. And fix all long range gun short range ammos those are terrible (quake, gleam and javelin). Way too many penalties when compared to faction ammo.
Maulos the united	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:26:00 - [188] Arty need a review!
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:57:00 - [189] Is this on the table? Recent playing around with minmatarr ships have proven arti to still suck. xD
kibbeard Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:05:00 - [190] Since the HP boost the "high" alpha of artillery has become... well.. rather low.

Shadow Servant	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:54:00 - [191] DPS Tempest whit 2 Gyros II, 6 1400s II whit Tremor = 317 DPS Apoc whit 2 Heatsink II whit 8 Megabeam II whit Aurora = 331 Now what where you saying about 1400s ?
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:12:00 - [192] Artillerry in general need a fix.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:30:00 - [193] Originally by: Shadow Servant DPS Tempest whit 2 Gyros II, 6 1400s II whit Tremor = 317 DPS Apoc whit 2 Heatsink II whit 8 Megabeam II whit Aurora = 331 Now what where you saying about 1400s ? Don¦t forget reloading which drops that to 289 at best (if you manage to reactivate your guns always right after reload finishes). Also, you have less effective range.
FT Diomedes Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:55:00 - [194] Large artillery definitely needs some help.
Rabid Rich	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:05:00 - [195] Originally by: Ambien Torca Originally by: Shadow Servant DPS Tempest whit 2 Gyros II, 6 1400s II whit Tremor = 317 DPS Apoc whit 2 Heatsink II whit 8 Megabeam II whit Aurora = 331 Now what where you saying about 1400s ? Don¦t forget reloading which drops that to 289 at best (if you manage to reactivate your guns always right after reload finishes). Also, you have less effective range. and that even in the best of scenarios, at least one of your 6 guns will ALWAYS miss due to the shit tracking. that "317dps" is fast becoming sq.rt of 317dps in many real fights....
Thaanvanite Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:31:00 - [196] /signed
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.21 21:53:00 - [197] Originally by: Rabid Rich and that even in the best of scenarios, at least one of your 6 guns will ALWAYS miss due to the shit tracking. that "317dps" is fast becoming sq.rt of 317dps in many real fights.... Why do you think the Minmatar EW are Target Painters which enhance tracking? The whole Minmatar support lineup is a big tracking machine, with bonuses to tracking links, TP and to a lesser degree webs.
Rabid Rich	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:09:00 - [198] Edited by: Rabid Rich on 22/08/2008 11:14:26 clearly you don't know what you are talking about, and have never flown with 1400mm yourself- TP ranges are not synergisic with artillery, and the tracking is SO bad that even when shooting other BS from 100-200km you hardly ever have your full rack hit. this is not about "it looks ok in eft or whatever", it is about the usage of these guns IN PRACTICE. They just don't deliver what was promised in the blurb. Your quote from oveur is misplaced, as all the supporters in this thread are not looking at anything in a simplistic way, in fact the complaints largely stem from peoples experience of them in a whole variety of scenarios. and what alpha anyway in the age of trimarks and EHP buffs?.... even in medium/large gangs it all boils down to dps+EHP+lock/reload times
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.22 11:21:00 - [199] Edited by: Ruciza on 22/08/2008 11:24:26 Originally by: Rabid Rich clearly you don't know what you are talking about, and have never flown with 1400mm yourself- TP ranges are not synergisic with artillery I'd rather say that you clearly never really used target painters, surely "because they suck". Of course TP have the same range as 1400mm. IN PRACTICE. Falloff. So in medium/large gangs you need a whole magazine to kill a couple bs with 1400mm II? Ha! Don't think so.
Drad Lord	Posted - 2008.08.22 13:04:00 - [200] In my opinione: Give tempest bonus that increase target painter optimal range to 140km, and icrease amount ammo of 1400mm in clip, and it will be enough give chance to this ship

Serric Rogue Militia	Posted - 2008.08.22 16:49:00 - [201] /signed Large Arties need love.
Yelram AnTi.	Posted - 2008.08.24 05:20:00 - [202] Signed.
Kilabi Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.24 07:27:00 - [203] .
Alkie	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:21:00 - [204] 1400 II's and the Tempest/Maelstrom are God Awful since CCP chose to impose scripting on everyone. The fact that a Rokh and an apoc with t1 guns can vastly outrange a tempest with 1400 II's is a god damn travesty. The fact that they can do that with superior tracking adds insult to injury. The fact that my 1400 II's hold 10 rounds of tremor before a reload in laggy fleet fights is a slap in the face. Without rigs three damage mods each: T1 fitted Apoc with Microvave L ( 2 TE's 1 TC w/optimal ).... 170 + 24 .02063 tracking 226 DPS T1 fitted Apoc with Radio L ( 2 TE's 1 TC w/optimal).... 194 + 24 .02063 tracking 203 DPS T2 fitted Tempest with Carbonized lead ( 2 TE's 2 TC's w/optimal)..141 + 42 .001334 tracking 291 DPS T2 Fitted Tempest with Tremor L ( 2TE's 2 TC's w/optimal )..159 + 42 .00333 Tracking 292 DPS Why CCP? Why does some 6 month old toon with Amarr BS4 have more capability in a long range fleet battle than a 3 year old character who spent months training up large Tech2 projectiles? With that tracking, a tempest cant track a cruiser hull at 150KM and does not reliably hit a battleship when it's moving. This needs to be fixed
Shinma Apollo The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:39:00 - [205] Edited by: Shinma Apollo on 30/09/2008 23:41:41 When the best viable artillery platform is an abaddon, something's wrong with arties.
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:27:00 - [206] my first minmatar char was a sniper tempest pilot since 2004 and now that i have this one i have all the base gunery skills five'd out and still havn't gone tempest yet . when the tempy got quake ammo i was wrecking for 3k plus dmg then quake (and all yes t2 ammo ) got slammed and now it's largely useless unless your sitting right next to a capital and shooting at him . i think tht overall artillery had a kind of shock factor b4 but now it's mock factor . im sorry but when a 1400mm projectile comes crasshing into the side of you ship it should make an impression .
Arturus Vex Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.02 04:30:00 - [207] did i sign this topic? .. now i have...
Dwindlehop Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2008.10.03 00:25:00 - [208] Edited by: Dwindlehop on 03/10/2008 00:25:38 I support a look at artillery in general or the Tempest specifically. Artillery has long been the lower DPS, lower range, lower tracking, but higher burst damage choice. This is a fine role. However, changes to base HP, rigs, and scripts have increased the range/tracking gap while reducing the effective burst damage (as a fraction of the target's total HP). Others have noted how the HP increases and introduction of rigs affects artillery's burst damage. Artillery are now worse compared to other long range turrets than they were, even though the stats have not changed, due to changes in mods, ships, and rigs. Artillery should still be low DPS, low range, low tracking, and high burst, but the disadvantages need to be reduced and the advantages increased to bring artillery back into line relative to the other long range turrets.
Akip Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.03 02:34:00 - [209] I love alpha strike on Arties. I support this idea. I love Quake ammo 2006.07.27 21:11:58 combat Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Slave Worker Facilities, wrecki
Sir JoJo Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:11:00 - [210] Edited by: Sir JoJo on 03/10/2008 16:11:39 Artillery could defibatly use a look at!

Col Callahan Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:44:00 - [211] /Signed, these guns are harder then hell to fit with a decent set up and all other platforms out range them and out DPS them, alpha strike damage IMO is not a plus at all in any capacity. Increase DPS and range of the weapons and most of all balance there Power Grid, its way out in left filed. _ 5 years and they still can't fit over 1200 people in one shard without the system failing.
Alkie	Posted - 2008.10.09 16:07:00 - [212] Not the first answer or acknowledgment of the problem in here so far. What gives? Could we at least have an explanation as to why a T1 fitted rokh or an apoc out ranges and out tracks a t2 fitted tempest while ALSO being able to fit an omni DD tank? I'm fine with being a glass cannon, but the cannon part doesn't exactly exist anymore.


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