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Dotard Suddenly Samurai	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:45:00 - [31] Simplistic answer: Blob or die. This is a game of blobs, if you ain't in one you're gonna get blowed-up by one. Simple as that. Don't matter if you are a 30 day player or a 3 year player or how much techno is fit to your ship, the solo player is borked. Solo folks have not much options when it comes to the want of PvP with at least a smiggen of a chance to be the victor. We're regulated to just 'griefy' types of ways to try to entice a fight such as can flipping and mission invading. Even then after the bit of intel work checking their corp member numbers, character age and if they have mates in the system, you have to rely on them taking a shot at you after you swipe their lootz. Which many more than not do not. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Sovereign533 Anoint	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:01:00 - [32] well, the main problem isn't the amount of skills someone has. or the nice modules they have. altough that 2% boost in efficiency is nice and can make the difference. it's not as valuble as your own experience. get a good setup, and only attack ships that you think you can win fighting against. this is what they do. losing stuff isn't a problem. as long as your learn from what you did wrong. or come to smart idea's on how to counter what he did to you. get another ship and fittings, and try again. till you hit the jackpot. experienced pilots are all over the place. and it's mostly about knowing what to do, and how to do it that will save them. specialised ships are also quite handy, because they are build for something specifically. but making them useless for something else. if you're in a MWD'ing rifter (great ship) and you see a Rapier/Hugginn on scanner. don't engage, he'll web and kill you before he gets close. instead, get a larger damage ship, like a Battlecruiser. you can't out-run him, but you can try to out-tank him. these are just examples. use your imagination, and learn.
Pirokobo Orion Academy THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:08:00 - [33] Edited by: Pirokobo on 05/06/2008 13:10:45 Originally by: Dotard Even then after the bit of intel work checking their corp member numbers, character age and if they have mates in the system, you have to rely on them taking a shot at you after you swipe their lootz. Which many more than not do not. As a general rule, firing on a flipper is ******** unless you know you have so many hulks with so many drones that they'll die in seconds. Most corps and industrial alliances do however run a hate-list and contact CEOs when particular pilots turn obnoxious. Obviously, this doesn't stop people from joining Pekone and operating with relative impunity, but a glance at their history and some communication can sometimes uncover alts and allies worth retaliating against. Is it really worth it to flip cans if your victim goes to the trouble of finding out who your alts are, finding out where your alt's POSes are, and blowing them straight to hell?
Demtalin le'Mercennaire The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Daemon 187 I have gone with warp core stabilizers and they seem to do JACK CRAP. I have been targeted and jammed in under 5 seconds and then its just sit there and take it. Yea I fight back for all the good it does me against all Tech II modded out ships. Do I need to get Warp Core Operation up to 5 or use multiple stabilizers, or what? Warp core stabilisers just help you run away from ships using warp distruptors or warp scramblers, they don't help for any of the tasks you said above -------- Billy Jean is not my lover
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Dotard Simplistic answer: Blob or die. This is a game of blobs, if you ain't in one you're gonna get blowed-up by one. Simple as that. do this against competent people and you wind up with alot of death mails and ****ed off people on vent/ts if there is little lag To the OP, PVP takes months to years of practice to get it right, to understand core elements, in becoming a tool in your gang instead of just another target for the enemy. Your best bet is to find people to teach you, learn to tackle, use scanner, fit for tank, fit for speed, concepts of EWAR, and initially specialize, say you want HACs or RECONs or logistics etc, and if you don't like ewar and are caldari, immediately cross train out of it as other races will be easier to get the feel of a moar rounded PVP experience.
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:24:00 - [36] Heh, well if you are fitting warp core stabs there is your first problem, they completely ruin your day if you try to pvp with them. Are you sure you were being jammed and it wasnt just the stabs had nerfed your targetting range to nothing?? They are especially useless now that pirates have a new toy - the heavy interdictor - which ignores them. The warp core operation skill only effects how much cap you use when you warp, nothing else. If you are going up against a single older player it is very unlikely they will be able to jam you, tackle you, tank sentry guns and have dps to kill you all at once. If its not a single player then the issue is that you are outnumbered, not that they have more sp (4 or 5 very new players will be just as invincible agaisnt a solo high sp enemy not set up for them). Unless you have only been training learning or industrial skills at 3.5 mil sp you should be competitive. Basically in eve skill training is all about diminishing returns unless you need a skill to use a certain mod/fly a certain ship. Put you with 3.5 mil sp and a vet with 40 mil sp into the same cruiser or bc and there is every possibility you could win. I do not know whether you want to pvp, or if you want to pve but be able to defend yourself in pvp. If the former you simply need to pick something to specialise in, say electronic warfare. 6 months down the line you would be pretty much at the same level as most vets unless they themselves really specialized. As you could only do one thing you would also catch up on experience. If you are more of a pve guy it is harder to specialize, but a few rules are worth following. Never use autopilot in lo-sec. Have a scout wherever possible. Fit to run OR fight, not both (no wcs on a ship you might fight in!) If you keep having the same problem fit to counter it (if you keep getting jammed fit eccm for example) Check the in game map for ship kills/pod kills/players in system along travel routes. If lots of people have died in the system in the last hour dont go there. Most of all eve is a multiplayer game, so get freinds. Whether they help you fight, provide intel, scout for you or just help you replace losses faster, eve is a lot easier with them.
Lakut Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Kzassou Itsuensha On the topic of stabs, yes, you need to fit mroe than 1. Every ship has a warp core strength of 1 (base). If the enemy has that many or more warp scrambling points, you can't warp. Since a disruptor (20km range) has strength 1 and a scrambler (7.5km) has a strength of 2, if you have only 1 stab and they have a scram, you're done. Therefore you'll want to fit as many stabs as you can. Side note: NEVER EVER EVER fit stabs if you plan on fighting. They are for transport only. They cut your targeting speed and range in half, making you essentially useless. One word: Hictor. Just felt like adding that. For those new in the show here: Hictor is an abbr. for Heavy Interdictor, a ship that can fit an infinite points warp disruptor (short explanation). Apart from that: Warp core stabs in PVP are really ********. Encountered a stabbed Cerberus (I assume it had a cloak too, though) in a ganky HAM drake once. I was halfway through its shield before it finished targetting me while I was huggling it at a few km range. Sadly some reinforcements came in to surprise buttsecks it and the guy chickened out before they could get moar points on it (I only had one point on my ship), before I could bump him into his own anchored bubble. I always had a two points fitted in that area ever since, but some other guys killed him and I never saw him again. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return.
Jaseara	Posted - 2008.06.05 16:15:00 - [38] Yes as an older player I have the sense not to fly into a 5 man gate camp solo. Sounds like an off hand flame but intel is important my 75 mill SP combat main can't take 5 ships on his own.
Drizit	Posted - 2008.06.05 17:07:00 - [39] Firstly, if it's taking a month to fit a ship, you are spending more than you can afford to lose. Don't fly it where you're going to lose it. Second, if it's taking them 5 seconds to lock and scram a fairly large ship, they don't stand a hope in hell of locking a frigate or shuttle before it warps. 1. Plan an alternate route to avoid the gate camp or park up in the system next door and wait till just after DT to move it. 2. Check the map for 'pilots in space and docked' before going through the gate. 3. Add the gate campers to your buddies list to see if they are online or not. 4. Leave the ship docked at your desired destination and come back and forth in a shuttle since this would be far harder for them to catch. 5. Get your standings with a NPC corp up to 8 and get a jump clone. Then fly it to the other system in a shuttle and jump back. Every 24 hours you can jump to your other clone. Spend 24 hours there doing whatever and 24 hours back in highsec. 6. Spend some isk hiring a merc corp to rid the gate of those pirates. 7. Join a corp and go do ome pew pew in a group against those pirates. I'm sure there are many more ways but those are off the top of my head. -- Freighters need a tank
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.06.06 00:13:00 - [40] rifter + pirate corp = a step in the right direction .
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2008.06.06 00:51:00 - [41] You have to understand that when other players attack you more often than not the odds are in their favor. This is why they have attacked you. Few people attack when there is 50/50 chance of winning or less for them. This works same for new and old players alike. Because you cannot fight the aggressors since they have calculated that you are weak enough for them to attack in the first place, your focus should be on not ending up on the same grid with a bunch of pirates. This is simple - warp out before they warp on top of you. Keep away from the center of the belt. Fly fast ships on mwd and try to flee if you got warp scrambled. Make 3 safespots and keep warping between them so that they cannot probe you out. Return back to belts when they leave. Find an isolated system with little traffic, not a low sec pipe where pirates frequently roam and camp. Check out everyone who comes and goes in local chat. When people attack one another, the aggressor is usually in the strongest position. This is same for veteran players attacking one another. When you will train for 2 years and get more skill points you will see that same thing is going on. They will only attack you when they have an advantage over you. In EVE the skill training system does not go in linear progression, and fifth level on a skill takes 5x time the skill points to train for some miserly 3-5% bonus. This means that you won't be significantly more uber in 2 years training and yes individuals and groups of pirates who think they can exploit your weaknesses, and all ships have these, will still attack and kill you. So if you want to score kills instead of be killed what you have to do is not behave like prey and wait to be preyed upon but behave as an aggressor. Because face it, people will attack you when they think they are stronger and this won't change with another 20 mil sp. There will always be someone around who is has more firepower. So you can join them and seek out fights yourself instead of sitting there waiting to be jammed, nossed, webed, and scrammed into oblivion. Or you can also resort to baiting, which can be a lot of fun but you'd need a friend or second account to pull this. guide to game time codes
Iyachtu Achlysiel Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.06 00:55:00 - [42] Originally by: SniperWo1f rifter + pirate corp = a step in the right direction . This. Though Blackbird will always be the ultimate ship for Caldari newbies. Easy on skills, costs effectively nothing, and quite easily capable of jamming T2 equipped ships flown by years-old veterans to oblivion. Useless if you're flying alone, though. On that Raven fit. Well, apart from not mixing active and passive tanks, and not PvPing in it at all until you've got corpmates to back you up, decent skills and fat wallet... X-Large shield booster sucks frightening amounts of cap, so cap injector is a must. MWD is always very good, though I suppose you can survive without it in low-sec. As for lows, try to squeeze in 2, preferably 3 BCU:s (drop the nosferatus to free grid, they're not that good anymore), and definitely a Damage Control. Cruise launchers are great in missions, but in PvP the Raven really comes to its own when you can fit Tech 2 sieges. You rarely need the range of cruises, and the torps do hideous damage.
Fuzzy Sprinkles	Posted - 2008.06.06 04:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Tarminic I might not win a boxing match against Mike Tyson, but I could sure as hell walk up behind him and hit him in the head with a pipe. I would advise against this course of action... you would damage your pipe.
Brunswick2 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.06 05:09:00 - [44] Welcome to EVE. Bring friends, you'll need them.
Agazoth V Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.06.06 05:16:00 - [45] No question if your smart you can go 1vs1. If your not don't even try. This is EvE throw some sand and figure out what your doing wrong.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.06 05:44:00 - [46] with only 1 stab on a raven your going to get caught by 2 non sensor boosted battleships. ravens are slow as hell I had a great fight the other night, me in a geddon against 2 ravens a myrm and sentries. they were even kind enough to shoot back so I didnt get a bad sec penalty. Know thy enemy, cruise ravens with giant em holes are ftw. was kind enough to let my corpies in system know so they could come get on the killmails. that spooked the 2nd raven off though. (okay I over estamated the ravens and panicked a bit, disappointing as looking back I'm sure I could have taken all 3)
Dristra Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Daemon 187 Awesome information from everyone. Thank you for not just flaming my question. So the most recent ship I lost was a Raven Battleship which I have had a week or so. Equipped as follows: 6 Cruise missile 2 Large Energy Vamps 2 Invuln shield 1 x-large shield booster 1 shield boost amp 1 large shield extender 1 Sensor booster array 3 PDU 1 BCU 1 Warp core stabilizer I have been focusing on getting to battleship with good fittings trying to progress to decent quality lv 3/4 missions which I have little problems with. The majority of my training so far has been Learning (all stats 16+), Missile launcher operation, and Spaceship command, with some here and there to get the things I felt like I needed at the time. It seems my first goal should be finding a decent Corp to work with. I have been mostly questing in .3 to .6 sec zones as the missions pay better but perhaps I will save those until I am flying with a fleet. My main thing I was thrown by was how fast I was locked onto and warp scrambled, it seemed almost instant. It seems that for movement between low sec zones WCS are worthwhile but otherwise are crap. So for safe travel is it best to just dump as many as you can in those slots just to be safe? Then replace them out with real gear for missioning/ratting? For traveling: have a freind check the gate before you go through, if he is in a fast ship he can just avoid any pirates. or, get a nano and istab fit, a cloak and a mwd, align to your target, go mwd and cloak, and turn off cloak when you are at speed and warp in 0 secs Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:16:00 - [48] newer players infact have a better chance at a pvp kill in EVE over an older player then many other MMORPGs though. because while having a ton of SP and plain skill help, that newb in the Blackbird you didnt shoot at first is now jamming the sensors on the faction fitted BS. people hate ewar but honestly if i was in a gang going against someone in a far better ship id have no issue fielding a BB or scorp and locking em down with damps and jammers.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.06 07:24:00 - [49] Originally by: Daemon 187 So I started playing EVE about 2 months ago and I just have to know... are new players just straight up screwed by old players (aka people who have years of training). I have lost a few ships to pirates and have tried everything I can do barring just maxing skills w/o playing to get my ship to a state where I will not get jammed and hosed every time. Here is the question: As a new player (<3.5mil training) is there any solid way to prevent getting jammed and throttled by players with all maxxed out skills? I have gone with warp core stabilizers and they seem to do JACK CRAP. I have been targeted and jammed in under 5 seconds and then its just sit there and take it. Yea I fight back for all the good it does me against all Tech II modded out ships. Do I need to get Warp Core Operation up to 5 or use multiple stabilizers, or what? I am not complaining as I understand its part and parcel with the pvp aspect of the game but IÆd like to have a chance to make it out with the ship I spent the past month outfitting. Long story short its hard to compete against players that are fully outfitted in named gear, named ships, all T2 gear, and then there are usually more than one. Should I just submit that I will not win and just be prepared to lose a ship now and then? Or do I just need to wait to get 2 years of training under my belt before I can begin to compete? yes new players can't compete at all, the best you can do is keep training until you have 30m sp and then you can start flying cruisers, don't even think about battleships until you have 60m sp otherwise every one will just drop their carriers and MS on you oh now look what you've made me do now get off my lawn you dag gurn kids ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Daemon 187 So I started playing EVE about 2 months ago and I just have to know... are new players just straight up screwed by old players (aka people who have years of training). I have lost a few ships to pirates and have tried everything I can do barring just maxing skills w/o playing to get my ship to a state where I will not get jammed and hosed every time. Here is the question: As a new player (<3.5mil training) is there any solid way to prevent getting jammed and throttled by players with all maxxed out skills? I have gone with warp core stabilizers and they seem to do JACK CRAP. I have been targeted and jammed in under 5 seconds and then its just sit there and take it. Yea I fight back for all the good it does me against all Tech II modded out ships. Do I need to get Warp Core Operation up to 5 or use multiple stabilizers, or what? I am not complaining as I understand its part and parcel with the pvp aspect of the game but IÆd like to have a chance to make it out with the ship I spent the past month outfitting. Long story short its hard to compete against players that are fully outfitted in named gear, named ships, all T2 gear, and then there are usually more than one. Should I just submit that I will not win and just be prepared to lose a ship now and then? Or do I just need to wait to get 2 years of training under my belt before I can begin to compete? yes new players can't compete at all, the best you can do is keep training until you have 30m sp and then you can start flying cruisers, don't even think about battleships until you have 60m sp otherwise every one will just drop their carriers and MS on you oh now look what you've made me do now get off my lawn you dag gurn kids THIS IS EXACTLY HOW EVE WORKS!!!111
VinkNut Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Daemon 187 So I started playing EVE about 2 months ago and I just have to know... are new players just straight up screwed by old players (aka people who have years of training). I have lost a few ships to pirates and have tried everything I can do barring just maxing skills w/o playing to get my ship to a state where I will not get jammed and hosed every time. Here is the question: As a new player (<3.5mil training) is there any solid way to prevent getting jammed and throttled by players with all maxxed out skills? I have gone with warp core stabilizers and they seem to do JACK CRAP. I have been targeted and jammed in under 5 seconds and then its just sit there and take it. Yea I fight back for all the good it does me against all Tech II modded out ships. Do I need to get Warp Core Operation up to 5 or use multiple stabilizers, or what? I am not complaining as I understand its part and parcel with the pvp aspect of the game but IÆd like to have a chance to make it out with the ship I spent the past month outfitting. Long story short its hard to compete against players that are fully outfitted in named gear, named ships, all T2 gear, and then there are usually more than one. Should I just submit that I will not win and just be prepared to lose a ship now and then? Or do I just need to wait to get 2 years of training under my belt before I can begin to compete? yes new players can't compete at all, the best you can do is keep training until you have 30m sp and then you can start flying cruisers, don't even think about battleships until you have 60m sp otherwise every one will just drop their carriers and MS on you oh now look what you've made me do now get off my lawn you dag gurn kids Read my post your wrong. a 10mil SP char spec'ed for a ship type (intercepters for example) is as good as a 100million SP Char.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.06 23:50:00 - [52] Originally by: VinkNut Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Daemon 187 So I started playing EVE about 2 months ago and I just have to know... are new players just straight up screwed by old players (aka people who have years of training). I have lost a few ships to pirates and have tried everything I can do barring just maxing skills w/o playing to get my ship to a state where I will not get jammed and hosed every time. Here is the question: As a new player (<3.5mil training) is there any solid way to prevent getting jammed and throttled by players with all maxxed out skills? I have gone with warp core stabilizers and they seem to do JACK CRAP. I have been targeted and jammed in under 5 seconds and then its just sit there and take it. Yea I fight back for all the good it does me against all Tech II modded out ships. Do I need to get Warp Core Operation up to 5 or use multiple stabilizers, or what? I am not complaining as I understand its part and parcel with the pvp aspect of the game but IÆd like to have a chance to make it out with the ship I spent the past month outfitting. Long story short its hard to compete against players that are fully outfitted in named gear, named ships, all T2 gear, and then there are usually more than one. Should I just submit that I will not win and just be prepared to lose a ship now and then? Or do I just need to wait to get 2 years of training under my belt before I can begin to compete? yes new players can't compete at all, the best you can do is keep training until you have 30m sp and then you can start flying cruisers, don't even think about battleships until you have 60m sp otherwise every one will just drop their carriers and MS on you oh now look what you've made me do now get off my lawn you dag gurn kids Read my post your wrong. a 10mil SP char spec'ed for a ship type (intercepters for example) is as good as a 100million SP Char. no m8 you're wrong you're just trying to lure newbs into 0.0 to grief them tbh who could believe a person who wants to do that i mean really. If only bob wasnt trying to grief everyone and spread propaganda this game would be a better place cant you see that telling newbies that they can compete is that a sad sad trick and dishonest m8 ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Intigo Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:24:00 - [53] Edited by: Intigo on 07/06/2008 00:24:19 Yadda, yadda, yadda. Me in a Punisher fighting a Caracal 10 days into the game a while ago (before the 800k start SP was introduced, I had approximately 150k SPs in this kill): http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3779/endfightvf8.jpg SPs is no excuse. You can always PvP and do well at it if you set your mind to it. Anyone saying otherwise is a complete tool. ___________________ A-WAR, much love. <3
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.06.07 07:22:00 - [54] Advantages I get in my Dominix vs a Noob SKILLS 25% more hull 25% more armor 25% more shiled 25% faster shiled recharge 25% higher resistance 25% more cap 25% faster cap recharge 25% faster ship 25% more agil 25% faster armor rep 80% more drone damage 25% faster neuts etc yawn etc yawn etc And thats just from skill training. This is compounded by the new t2 equipment these skills unlock EQUIPMENT 20% more drone damage 30% mroe rep per cycle 10% more resistances more cap boost ets etc etc ISK Ive got more isk then a noob. So I can afford to waste mor on my setups. So I buy RIGS: 20% improvement on ship FACTION: The odd faction item to help fitting Hardwirings: The odd hardwiring to increae peformance. _____ One of these boosts would enable me to win the fight. But 40 boosts? The combined end total is a MASSIVE advantage in my favour. If I fight a noob and beat him, its not because of "years of tacitcal pvp training and situational anaylisis making me the uber pvper we all know I am" Like the PVP 'vets' will have you believe. Its beacuse ive had a virtual clock ticking in a server in london for a longer period, and ive ground more isk. I whack f1-f8 and kill the fool - occasionaly whacking armor rep or cycling drones. If i have learned anything , its when to run, and what to shoot first. Im not 'skilled', in the same way a FPS player is or a RTS player is. The noob has a huge hurdle to overcome to catch up with an older player. This can be overcome by a year of specilisation or by blobbing with friends. Or by catching the older player drunk. SKUNK
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.06.07 07:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Intigo Edited by: Intigo on 07/06/2008 00:24:19 Yadda, yadda, yadda. Me in a Punisher fighting a Caracal 10 days into the game a while ago (before the 800k start SP was introduced, I had approximately 150k SPs in this kill): http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3779/endfightvf8.jpg SPs is no excuse. You can always PvP and do well at it if you set your mind to it. Anyone saying otherwise is a complete tool. This shows the following INTIGO: Birth Date - 1st September 2006 vs ASTEROIDE: Birth Date - 20th August 2006 Thats only 11 days older then you. As such it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. SKUNK
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.07 07:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Le Skunk Advantages I get in my Dominix vs a Noob SKILLS 25% more hull 25% more armor 25% more shiled 25% faster shiled recharge 25% higher resistance 25% more cap 25% faster cap recharge 25% faster ship 25% more agil 25% faster armor rep 80% more drone damage 25% faster neuts etc yawn etc yawn etc And thats just from skill training. This is compounded by the new t2 equipment these skills unlock EQUIPMENT 20% more drone damage 30% mroe rep per cycle 10% more resistances more cap boost ets etc etc ISK Ive got more isk then a noob. So I can afford to waste mor on my setups. So I buy RIGS: 20% improvement on ship FACTION: The odd faction item to help fitting Hardwirings: The odd hardwiring to increae peformance. _____ One of these boosts would enable me to win the fight. But 40 boosts? The combined end total is a MASSIVE advantage in my favour. If I fight a noob and beat him, its not because of "years of tacitcal pvp training and situational anaylisis making me the uber pvper we all know I am" Like the PVP 'vets' will have you believe. Its beacuse ive had a virtual clock ticking in a server in london for a longer period, and ive ground more isk. I whack f1-f8 and kill the fool - occasionaly whacking armor rep or cycling drones. If i have learned anything , its when to run, and what to shoot first. Im not 'skilled', in the same way a FPS player is or a RTS player is. The noob has a huge hurdle to overcome to catch up with an older player. This can be overcome by a year of specilisation or by blobbing with friends. Or by catching the older player drunk. SKUNK this combined with the social knowledge of people with lots of level 5s means newbs have no chance in hell, unless they try to sabotage your corp from the inside--in which case they are clearly not newbs ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul

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