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Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:26:00 - [61] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 14:07:57 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:56:54 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:52:45 EDITThe more I think about it the more a range bonus to the neut/nos capabilites of the Pilgrim would be hugely overpowered. If any improvement is intended hopefully the designers look at DPS/cap/CPU/something drone related for potential boosts bearing in mind the close range nature of the ship. And why is this? When you make sweeping generalizations like that it helps to provide some reason. All of the other Force Recon ships get the range bonus. How is a ranged neut bonus (which is already found on the Curse) be any more overpowered than a ranged web bonus. You are not making any sense. The other Force Recon bonusses are balanced for range of engagement. Extending the neut/nos range PLUS covops cloak may be a smidge overpowered. Don't get me wrong...by all means boost away. Just for the right reasons. A ranged neut bonus sounds nice but sort of detracts from the in-your-face nature of the ship. Therein lies the difference, it isn't in your face by design--that part is incidental. It's the mark of an absent bonus that should have been there since recons were released and nos changed. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:30:00 - [62] Originally by: Captator curse range/neut amount bonus + another low + covops cloak =/= OP to you? I would prefer they try and fix it while maintaining its differences from the rest of the recon traits. I don't think another curse but with a cloak is a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't fly it, as most of the fun in flying a pilgrim is going toe to toe and winning. Excuse me but do you actually fly the pilgrim? Do you actually solo kill anything in that thing that you couldnt have killed in a arbitrator? And if you use it in a gang, why not just get a sentinel instead? alot cheaper.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Captator curse range/neut amount bonus + another low + covops cloak =/= OP to you? I would prefer they try and fix it while maintaining its differences from the rest of the recon traits. I don't think another curse but with a cloak is a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't fly it, as most of the fun in flying a pilgrim is going toe to toe and winning. Excuse me but do you actually fly the pilgrim? Do you actually solo kill anything in that thing that you couldnt have killed in a arbitrator? And if you use it in a gang, why not just get a sentinel instead? alot cheaper. I do fly it, though to date I have flown it in small gangs more than solo (this I plan to remedy), I haven't flown a sentinel yet so I cannot comment on that. A lot of the targets you can take on in a pilgrim you can take on in an arbitrator true, (plate fit 2x TD no web stay outside webrange) but a pilgrim allows me to act as a scout that can hold a point nicely (if in gang), and to scout my target properly before engaging, as well as not revealing myself to a potential target until I want to strike. TDwise you are equally viable in an arbitrator, but you cannot kill a target if you cannot break its tank - pilgrim/arbi at 9km with 2 range disruptors puts most turret ships into their second falloff, so you can negate a lot of damage there while you kill off drones (why the plate is nice). Alternatively I try to get in close, switch to tracking speed disruption, and if you are <500m even in a very slow orbit (ie webbed), a BS will have a lot of difficulty tracking, or just try and maintain 0 range so tracking formula doesn't work. Versus missile ships (and this is an afaik thing, as I haven't been in a position to test it recently) if you are very close torps cannot turn fast enough to hit you, especially if you have reasonable speed. Cruise and heavy/HAM are a problem, and consequently I wouldn't take on a target like that readily (here the ability to watch your target while cloaked and decide whether you want to engage is very handy) Perhaps if a range bonus was to be applied, half of the bonus could be a role bonus: eg: 50% range bonus to nos/neuts (for both ships), then the curse could be restored to normal with a 30% per level range and 20% drain amount bonus, and the pilgrim could just recieve the drain amount bonus, giving the pilgrim a 16-19km operating range. (figures subject to tweaking ofc)
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:35:00 - [64] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 18:39:14 Originally by: Captator EDIT: I am in no way denying that the pilgrim needs a boost, the nos nerf really did a number on it, as did HP buff, but I would rather it is not just turned into a cloaky curse, amarr recons have far greater individual character compared to the other races, and if possible I would like it to stay this way. Thank you for expressing better in one paragraph what I was trying to convey across multiple posts . EDITAnd regarding: Therein lies the difference, it isn't in your face by design--that part is incidental. So its incidental. Why not build on that? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Callyente	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:38:00 - [65] Personally, and this is just mho, I would like to see this done to the pilgrim. Remove the damage bonus and replace it with either an armor amount bonus or armor resists bonus. That's all for it's bonuses. Then change the drone bandwidth to 125 so if can field heavies to make up for the loss of drone damage. Similar to the Ishtar. After all, it's supposed to be a drone boat too right? Along the lines of the Arbi? That's all I wanted to say. =) p.s. And yes I still have actually flown a pilgrim on multiple times. Even took out a deimos and harbi 2v1. I just think it could be better suited to the role it is put in. Close up in your face recon.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Callyente Personally, and this is just mho, I would like to see this done to the pilgrim. Remove the damage bonus and replace it with either an armor amount bonus or armor resists bonus. That's all for it's bonuses. Then change the drone bandwidth to 125 so if can field heavies to make up for the loss of drone damage. Similar to the Ishtar. After all, it's supposed to be a drone boat too right? Along the lines of the Arbi? That's all I wanted to say. =) p.s. And yes I still have actually flown a pilgrim on multiple times. Even took out a deimos and harbi 2v1. I just think it could be better suited to the role it is put in. Close up in your face recon. But why make one of 8 recons a pure combat recon when recons obviously are very crap at combat. They get their asses handed to them by quite a large amount of ships generally. Why not just make the pilgrim a range bonused recon gang ships just like the other 7 recons?
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:50:00 - [67] because they keep the 2 bonuses from the t1 hull (drone damage, TD effectiveness), and giving it the range bonus when compared to the curse (range, amount) would have no value, so they opted to give it the amount bonus instead. From a purely bonus trend point of view it is logical, but the end result is a product that flies completely differently to the others. One can argue that the the t2 bonuses on the bellicose hull should be webrange/strength on huginn, and webrange/cloak on rapier. For celestis hulls, point range/damp range(or point strength) for lach and point range/cloak for arazu. Caldari recons you have a similar occurence to the pilgrim, where the t2 bonuses are strength/range on rook, and strength/cloak on falcon.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:59:00 - [68] Originally by: Captator because they keep the 2 bonuses from the t1 hull (drone damage, TD effectiveness), and giving it the range bonus when compared to the curse (range, amount) would have no value, so they opted to give it the amount bonus instead. From a purely bonus trend point of view it is logical, but the end result is a product that flies completely differently to the others. One can argue that the the t2 bonuses on the bellicose hull should be webrange/strength on huginn, and webrange/cloak on rapier. For celestis hulls, point range/damp range(or point strength) for lach and point range/cloak for arazu. Caldari recons you have a similar occurence to the pilgrim, where the t2 bonuses are strength/range on rook, and strength/cloak on falcon. Do you know why pilgrim needs that strength bonus? Because unlike long range webs, scrams and ecm, the neut/nos is a size based ew. wich means you have to give it a bonus so it can be effective enough. And you have to give it range. This is why pilgrim ends up with one less bonus basically and is doomed to suck if ccp doesn't fix that. So we need the neut amount bonus. We need a range bonus. We need the cloak bonus. One bonus left...They nerfed the drones and 5 unbonused medium drones do less damage then some inties out there. They need to switch the damage bonus to a range bonus on pilgrim and increase the drone bandwidth to compensate for the loss. This way pilgrim will get inline because you will have built in that extra bonus that was missing in this ship because of neuts being size dependent ew modules.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:09:00 - [69] So do you propose 100m3 bandwidth 200m3 bay and a range and amount bonus? alternatively, why not amalgamate the bonuses into one and give curse an em missile bonus (it is a khanid ship is it not?)
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:24:00 - [70] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/06/2008 19:25:05 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. Unconventional setups that work are great. I was probebly the first Shield Tanked Launcher Curse pilot out there. DG fitted Fleet Rokhs to get around the tracking issue was a more intresting thing I did, as far I am aware, I was the only guy who ever done it. However, stuff like laser/smartbomb/etc pilgrim just does not work that properly. I tried a blaster/laser pilgrim and they look freeky but ultimatly you relise you are better off training another race's force recon. Which is what I did. If you can justify a situation where a turret pilgrim fits a gap that other ships cannot do, then thats sounds great. However, such gaps in which someone would want a turret pilgrim are mostly limited to test server style pvp and eft. -- Billion Isk Mission

Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:24:00 - [71] I own a pilgrim and fly it occasionally.. heres my fit. Cloak, Med Neut, 2x Med Nos Mwd, Med Cap Injector, Disruptor, Web, TD 2x MAR, EANM, Active Thermic Hardener, DC Aux Nano Pump, Kinetic Resist rig This is very hard to fit b/c of cpu, but does okay for killing turret based ships. Also, you cant perma-run your neut with reps, but its the most survivable fit I can think of. That said, I personally think the pilgrim should get 18km nos/neut range(with Recon5).. Just enough to get it out of web range but not be a cloaking curse. my 2 cents
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 - [72] Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Captator So do you propose 100m3 bandwidth 200m3 bay and a range and amount bonus? alternatively, why not amalgamate the bonuses into one and give curse an em missile bonus (it is a khanid ship is it not?) Whatever gives pilgrim range and dps comparable to the other recons. My suggestion would do it.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:37:00 - [74] so would mine , with the added advantage that you keep 3 flights of medium drones (which are faster and track better) and the curse gets a khanid related bonus.
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too. I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Methem I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. Would a cloaking pilgrim with 40km neuts be more overpowered then a 150km jamming cloaking surprise falcon?
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. Would a cloaking pilgrim with 40km neuts be more overpowered then a 150km jamming cloaking surprise falcon? You are comparing apples and oranges. Falcon does not solo kill anything.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Methem You are comparing apples and oranges. Falcon does not solo kill anything. That is because their ew has ALOT more range and is ALOT more disabling then the amarr one. In return you can solo a bit better with an amarr recon. It's balanced.
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:10:00 - [79] I fly a curse primarily. Hell, I'm seriously considering a HG Talisman set and a Domination/Republic Fleet warp disruptor just to inject that much more ownage into it. But I cannot for the life of me find a single setup for the Pilgrim that doesn't give me huge misgivings. Afterburner setups? Are you kidding me? The only thing it does better is cloaked hauling. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:23:00 - [80] It's funny, the op only wanted to know why the pilgrim doesn't get the range bonus like all the other recons do and the simple answer is the devs were scared it would be overpowered (this wa obviously at the forefront of their minds when they tinkered wth the falcon ofc ), and it spawned 3 pages . Anyway lord recons are gang ships by design, well they're ment to be, but the 4,5,5 layout almost lends ishtar lvl flexibility to the ship albeit at the cost of a bonus. 350+ dps with fmp is not exactly what i'd call low, compare it to the other f.recons and it the highest by a good margin although you wont kill any southern ratters with it (good thing i live in the north then ), and most competent ratters down also pack webs which scorch avoids. Oh an fyi 1 nano pump on that and it tank sentries, if pick on haulers is your thing ofc . You claim to be open minded yet you so quickly dismiss a build by another player because it does not fit neatly into your playing niche? I'm well aware you carry both an ab and mwd for swapping out however when i made the decision to take my neuts off (after battling on sever month after the nerfs) i really don't give a hoot what your opinion is, it works for me and more importantly it works well, haven't lost a single one since i moved from 5k to 20k. As i said for damage in a cloaked gang it cant be beat, and it'll kill ratters up here too provided you use the rats damage (isn't that what the smart pilots all do) and thankfully not everyone uses ravens so a single td should be sufficient to keep you alive now they effect falloff too. I would occasionally drop the tackle for addition td but rally with a falcon or tow you have all the ewar you'll never need, really if that's what you want there's not much point in flying anything else these days. Oh and invest in the disruptor m8, it freed enough cpu up for me to add a recon launcher to my last high *The EVE servers and their patches*

Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the **** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:40:00 - [82] Originally by: Methem Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too. I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. And my opinion is strictly that your opinion is wrong. --
Diomidis Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the ** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. Imagine the pain I'm going through, having to agree with both Bobbits AND Lyria! Hey, the Pilgrim can perform in gang...you just neglect the NOS/Neut bonus, warp in at 100km from the gate, and fit MWD + SB + 3x TDs to screw up a few turret sniping BSs or fight closer with 4x TDs...it's a falcon like approach You nano the lows and fit some relays for the cap to last, and hope your drones will chase off stupid ceptors...and who knows...one might even try to web you, so that you can neut him Join the Biggest Greek Corp!** www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the **** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. Imagine the pain I'm going through, having to agree with both Bobbits AND Lyria! Hey, the Pilgrim can perform in gang...you just neglect the NOS/Neut bonus, warp in at 100km from the gate, and fit MWD + SB + 3x TDs to screw up a few turret sniping BSs or fight closer with 4x TDs...it's a falcon like approach You nano the lows and fit some relays for the cap to last, and hope your drones will chase off stupid ceptors...and who knows...one might even try to web you, so that you can neut him I feel like thats so blasphemous that I wouldn't do that tho lol And yeah I agree with Lyria as well :p --
Daanika	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:45:00 - [85] There're a lot of different ships in Eve, some better or worse from a 'play to win' perspective. But from a purely 'play for fun' angle, the pilgrim has a hidden bonus that (imo) no other recon has: it's frickin' cool Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull...
Endless Subversion Club Bear	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:48:00 - [86] Originally by: Daanika Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull... Ah. You must have meant "feel the rush of shortly having one less worthless pilgrim". Engaging anything PvP fit and larger than a cruiser is going to result in a dead pilgrim. Not to mention the loads of other problems with having a <13km engagement range with 0 propulsion mods... I've flown the pilgrim for ages and it's total rubbish for anything besides hauling and solo mission ganking. Self Destruct & LogOffs
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:17:00 - [87] Originally by: Endless Subversion Originally by: Daanika Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull... Ah. You must have meant "feel the rush of shortly having one less worthless pilgrim". Engaging anything PvP fit and larger than a cruiser is going to result in a dead pilgrim. Not to mention the loads of other problems with having a <13km engagement range with 0 propulsion mods... I've flown the pilgrim for ages and it's total rubbish for anything besides hauling and solo mission ganking. But thats not what EFT said! God I hate that program... lol --
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 - [88] If your definetion of a gang ship is "more number = better than less" then that is a incorrect definition since all ships including haulers, noobships etc fall within that definition, since real life gangs are more than EFT. A Pilgrim just does not have the desgin for gang usage. Yes, you can Tach II a pilgrim and snipe at 160km. yes you can put on TD's and call it a EW boat. Is a 72km optimal max skill TD boat meant to scare people in the days where a Falcon pilot jam's people at 200-249km? If you are in a gang and can fly the pilgrim, you already have the skills to fly far superior ships more effective and be able to contrbiute to a gang better. Thats pretty much why I do not use pilgrim in gang and prefer to use falcon for "gang" usage. With that said I fly all types of ships for multiple races so I am giving a balanced viewpoint having flown both ships extensivly. -- Billion Isk Mission
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:33:00 - [89] I use my pilgrim to go to mecca ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:21:00 - [90] Originally by: Erotic Irony I use my pilgrim to go to mecca But I don't want to go to mecca; I want to be as good as the other recons.



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