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Barbens Sky Net Industries Pure.	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:26:00 - [91] The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:58:00 - [92] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Because recons don't tank well? Why do you need 40km webs on rapier, you can sneak up on people. Why do you need 150km range on falcon, you can sneak up on people. lol?
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:03:00 - [93] Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. ________________________________________
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:04:00 - [94] Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:05:00 - [95] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS That logic is simply wrong. Not opinionated, just wrong. Look at the entire class of Recon ships then try and make that argument... I really wish the people on the forums actually logged in every once in a while... --
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:34:00 - [96] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Have you every used a pilgrim? Seriously! -- Billion Isk Mission
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:46:00 - [97] The problem is two fold, it gets a damage bonust the other lack (in place of range) and we're still living in a nano era i.e. ccp don't want cloaking nano curse going around - yes, i have seen some poor sods with pollys on their pilgrims. Tbh i'd be happy with an additional role bonus to extend nuets to 20k which would keep ppl happy however balanced against the other ship (e.g. falcon = rook ewar) it would need to be next to the curse. You could apply additional role bonuses (or break current ones down) ont he others to keep it lvl, and perhaps give me motive to use an arazu again. Anyway there have been numerous thread on this ship but it always comes down to this: Td are long range, neuts short (conflicting intrest?) for either to funcion well the other cannot or you must fit the ship in some way contrary to design to use it e.g bs size plate, guns, nano etc. On the plus side the falcon is ott, arazu under powered (relativly speaking) and plenty folk have discussed changes to webs so really it looks like the whole class is in need of review. Well, their individual changes always appear to back-fire don't they *The EVE servers and their patches*
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Because recons don't tank well? Why do you need 40km webs on rapier, you can sneak up on people. Why do you need 150km range on falcon, you can sneak up on people. lol? Rarely do you see a post so squarely countered. Kudos.
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:55:00 - [99] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.06.11 19:00:00 - [100] Pilgrim = not okay Needs: Fix (range)

Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:14:00 - [101] Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue Yeah, it's so simple and plain. Unbelievable.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:08:00 - [102] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 11/06/2008 22:14:29 Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue lol soooo obvious. Since the Pilgrim has fewer acceptable targets than probably a taranis... --
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:49:00 - [103] Edited by: Grytok on 11/06/2008 22:50:27 I'd fly an Arazu every day over a Pilgrim. Why? Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. With an Arazu I can sit invincible at 20-30km dealing the same 200+ DPS without the target even beeing able to get a lock on me. Sure, I can't disable the tank of that Raven, but there's the NPCs helping with some more damage, and the Raven unable to kill those NPCs. So now tell me exactly where's your solo-gank-ability better in the Pilgrim? All you people trying to defend the Pilgrim are lost in 2006, way before NOS got nerfed. You're simply not able anymore to fuel your Dual-Reps, while draining the target dry. And without the ability to scoop/redeploy drones your damage get's killed pretty fast by a competent pilot. A competent pilot can do what ever he want's in his Raven... he won't do any harm to my Arazu, while dying slowly. Only BackUp can save his arse, but then you'll have to run away and cloak, while the Pilgrim has troubles to disengage. Pilgrim is not fine! Don't you dare telling people it is ffs. EDIT: Don't ask, yes I can fly the Pilgrim and have all related skills at 4/5. .
Bodhisattvas Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:25:00 - [104] Just remove the bollox nos nerf so the pilgrim gets the full nos amount instead of the you get no cap if your prey has more cap than you...in short just put it back the way it was.
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:21:00 - [105] I have flown Rapier and Falcon for a long time and recently trained up an alt to fly a Pilgrim. I wasn't to happy when I started fitting the damned thing. It is really hard to find a proper fit, at least if you want to be able to use it solo. I find it's tank too weak and it's dps to low to be able to do anything good solo. LordWarATron is 100% right imho. I just can't find any role for it that I couldn't use another ship with better result. The biggest problem is that you need to be in web range to get your nos/neut working and that means you'll either win or die. Only thing I see it good for is as a scout and tackler before your gang shows up to kill the target. Just hope you don't die before they show up. In short. I was very disappointed when I tried it out and I'll stick to Falcons and Rapiers for now until I have skilled up for an Arazu.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:29:00 - [106] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:21:00 - [107] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Are you serious? Solo HACs can kill BS. I've done it myself often enough to know that it is possible.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:45:00 - [108] Originally by: Mangold Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Are you serious? Solo HACs can kill BS. I've done it myself often enough to know that it is possible. Competently piloted ones? Are you joking? Most HACs melt to a Hurricane. Asking for solo cloaking recons to be able to take on BS when your average HAC has issues taking out a BC is laughable. I mean, yeah, I've killed a Drake in a Wolf, but that doesn't say anything about the relative performance of the ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:54:00 - [109] Watch that ratting mega stop me killing him when i put a single td on him *The EVE servers and their patches*
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:58:00 - [110] Originally by: achoura Watch that ratting mega stop me killing him when i put a single td on him Heavy Neutralisers don't need tracking. My Tempest has two Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:00:00 - [111] Originally by: Cpt Branko Competently piloted ones? Are you joking? Most HACs melt to a Hurricane. Asking for solo cloaking recons to be able to take on BS when your average HAC has issues taking out a BC is laughable. I mean, yeah, I've killed a Drake in a Wolf, but that doesn't say anything about the relative performance of the ships. I guess every BS I've killed has been piloted by a incompetent pilot then . Let me put it different: Most BCs and BS melt to a competent HAC pilot. If you manage to kill a HAC in your hurricane he must have been incompetent. Judging by your killboard you haven't much experience flying a HAC, at least not on this char. Anyway, I actually think that a recon should be able to kill a ratting BS. You need the DPS from belt rats to help kill it and that is possible with a arazu or rapier. It is much much harder to do that in a pilgrim and that's why I'll stay away from it for now. With and Arazu, Rapier or Falcon you can deagress and get safe if things go wrong. You can't do that with your Pilgrim as you'll be within web range and have a hard time getting away.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:09:00 - [112] Originally by: Mangold Most BCs and BS melt to a competent HAC pilot. Ok. Cookie cutter tempest. Double heavy neuts. Please tell me what you'll do about that solo in any HAC. And that's talking about nano-HACs; non-nano HACs just melt (Diemost,Beagle,etc). Against nano ones, hey, you need a heavy neut. I'd have thought it'd be the cookie-cutter BS fitting by now when soloing. Originally by: Mangold If you manage to kill a HAC in your hurricane he must have been incompetent. Judging by your killboard you haven't much experience flying a HAC, at least not on this char. I don't see the point of HACs* - I prefer killing them in a Hurricane. So many people think that because their Diemost/Blaster Eagle costs three times my ship, that they have a chance of winning. *well, yes, nano-ing obviously, but it's rather useless in low-sec if you want to do any gate/sentry work, and non-nano HACs fail compared to a Tier 2 BC. I've never ever lost to a solo nano HAC though, given there are easy ways to deal with each and every one of them, even if they TD you which is their best bet thanks to the falloff-reduction buff. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:02:00 - [113] HACs or recons doesn't work that good for solo gate camping in low sec. We can agree on that. I see that you have extensive experience from that type of pvp. How about 0.0 roaming? Sure, a tempest with two heavy neuts is a problem for a HAC. That setup has other disadvantages instead. I guess your definition of a competent BS pilot is someone that fits that. I still think Pilgrim suck if you compare it to other recons and as far as I can remember that is what this thread was all about.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:04:00 - [114] O HAI LOOK MA IM POASTING IN ANOTHER PILGRIM THREAD.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:22:00 - [115] I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few we are recruiting!
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:44:00 - [116] Originally by: Inertial I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few having empty slots and N-type stuff is not really good. If you must use a afterburner pilgrim, then try this (assuming you got recon lvl4) H: 2 x Med Neut II, 1 x Med Nos II, Cov Ops Cloak M: 10mn AB II, 1 x t2 Scram, 1 x T2 Web, 2 x Best Named Tracking Disrupters L: Med Rep II, 1600 Rolled Tungstan, Reactor Control System II, Energized Adaptive II, Adaptive nano Plate II R: 2 x Egress Port Maximiser Now I am going to assume you somehow manage to get to your target sysytem. You will have a big enough buffer to kill a ratting ship and since you have a Ab, you need to be around 150km+ from nearist asteroid in your belt. When victim comes in, warp to the asteriod nearist to him and uncloak and hope for the best. Its a long long boring waiting game so make lots of belt spots as you look for prey. It is also very easy for the mark to set a trap so keep that in mind. Egress Rigs are key here, so you can perma run a neut on the target forever. -- Billion Isk Mission
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 11:57:00 - [117] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 11:58:26 Originally by: Mangold HACs or recons doesn't work that good for solo gate camping in low sec. Solo gatecamping in anything non-disposable is bad anyway, 340 DPS extra from sentries means a T1 cruiser eventually breaks you. Incidentally, a tanked Sacriledge can work OK (even though there's little reason to use a Sacriledge for it), and a sentry-tanked sensor boosted Huggin (with a sensor-boosted Broadsword mate) are a awesome tackler due for any gatecamp but I'm detracting from the thread. I think you realize the issues non-nano HACs face anyway. Originally by: Mangold Sure, a tempest with two heavy neuts is a problem for a HAC. That setup has other disadvantages instead. I guess your definition of a competent BS pilot is someone that fits that. Basically, any solo BS (unless station hugging) is suicidal to fly without at least one heavy neutralizer. Else, a Crow will solo you eventually, or keep you tackled indefinitely while his mates cover the N jumps from wherever they are. Non-neut BS are fine for gangs (and some ships aren't going to be fitting neuts, like the Maelstorm/Hyperion/etc typically), but that just means you shouldn't be soloing in them really, particularly not sitting solo in a belt where one interceptor can keep you perma-tackled. Originally by: Mangold I still think Pilgrim suck if you compare it to other recons and as far as I can remember that is what this thread was all about. Well, it does in a number of ways, but it's primarily because it's got huge fitting issues and so on; not because of lack of range. There's nothing wrong with killing people at short range. Adding range to it would require a serious gimp in its damage-dealing capabilities, really, with keeping the fittings as gimped as they are. tl;dr: nano-Curse is fearsome, but it doesn't cloak, which IS a big deal. A cloaking nano-Curse would simply be overpowered, it has to make significant sacrifices to compensate for the covops cloak. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Anubis Hatak OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL White Core	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:41:00 - [118] Edited by: Anubis Hatak on 12/06/2008 12:41:51 A significant sacrifice that as far as I know the other race's recons don't suffer from. A range boost to 20km as mentioned before would probably satisfy most people...
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 11:58:26 Well, it does in a number of ways, but it's primarily because it's got huge fitting issues and so on; not because of lack of range. There's nothing wrong with killing people at short range. Adding range to it would require a serious gimp in its damage-dealing capabilities, really, with keeping the fittings as gimped as they are. tl;dr: nano-Curse is fearsome, but it doesn't cloak, which IS a big deal. A cloaking nano-Curse would simply be overpowered, it has to make significant sacrifices to compensate for the covops cloak. Yes, it would require a change in its bonuses. When adding the range bonus to neuts and nos, remove the drone damage and hitpoint bonus. Now, how the hell would this ship be overpowered when its only damage comes from 5, unbonused medium drones? If anything, it is the LEAST overpowered out of the entire recon family.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:48:00 - [120] Originally by: Inertial I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few You like it because you haven't tried flying it yet. Wait and see.



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