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Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 19:36:00 - [1] Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? --
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.08 19:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/06/2008 19:41:58 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. -- Billion Isk Mission
Umar Khattab Federation Zone Operations Command	Posted - 2008.06.08 19:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/06/2008 19:41:58 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. What a load of crap! _______________________________ "Nothing succeeds like excess" -Oscar Wilde
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.08 20:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? Replacing either the drain amount bonus or the drone damage bonus with a drain range bonus are indeed interesting ideas, however I'd have to admit that I would slightly miss the concept of the crazy solo tank-boat that the Pilgrim currently is. ^^
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.08 20:41:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord WarATron CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. Can't be said enough. Mail me for free Redeemer BPCs :( ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Cailais VITOC	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:15:00 - [6] I say remove the tracking disruptor bonus (which is useless) and give it a 7.5% armor repair amount bonus / level. C. VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Cailais I say remove the tracking disruptor bonus (which is useless) and give it a 7.5% armor repair amount bonus / level. C. It doesn't have the hit-points or resistance to make use of that rep. What about giving it a bonus to neut drones or enhancing its bandwidth to 100m3. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Kira Pasisson M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:19:00 - [8] Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 08/06/2008 22:19:42 well, as a cloaker the pilgrim can get close to a target unseen, so the range is not that important, furthermore it is able to field an impressive tank, which neither the falcon or the rapier are able to have if they still want to do what they are supposed to do....the damage bonus+the neut-ability makes the pilgrim a really nasty 1vs1 pvp ship, and a mess if u know u have one in ur 00 space, picking its targets...i think the pilgrim got a good role and should stay as it is, coz it is already quite strong in its supposed role and btw, the tracking disruptor bonus is a good one for this role, it just needs to avoid missile-boats, but i guess every ship got some others, it better is not engaging solo...
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Kira Pasisson Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 08/06/2008 22:19:42 well, as a cloaker the pilgrim can get close to a target unseen, so the range is not that important, furthermore it is able to field an impressive tank, which neither the falcon or the rapier are able to have if they still want to do what they are supposed to do....the damage bonus+the neut-ability makes the pilgrim a really nasty 1vs1 pvp ship, and a mess if u know u have one in ur 00 space, picking its targets...i think the pilgrim got a good role and should stay as it is, coz it is already quite strong in its supposed role and btw, the tracking disruptor bonus is a good one for this role, it just needs to avoid missile-boats, but i guess every ship got some others, it better is not engaging solo... Pilot details - Kira Pasisson Cerberus 117 Vulture79 Falcon 69 Onyx 27 Nighthawk 8 Eagle 7 Manticore 3 Harpy 2 Rook 2 ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Mrski Okupator The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/06/2008 19:41:58 CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. So sad; but so true. ___

Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:27:00 - [11] If you give the Pilgrim a range bonus the Curse will become just the same as the Rook. Rep bonus or something, perhaps make it a strictly TD boat. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Storm Strike	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:28:00 - [12] The pilgrim is fine . I know you all want to nano it and zoom around nueting people so how about flying a curse instead.
Arvald The Ninjapirates	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Kira Pasisson Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 08/06/2008 22:19:42 well, as a cloaker the pilgrim can get close to a target unseen, so the range is not that important, furthermore it is able to field an impressive tank, which neither the falcon or the rapier are able to have if they still want to do what they are supposed to do....the damage bonus+the neut-ability makes the pilgrim a really nasty 1vs1 pvp ship, and a mess if u know u have one in ur 00 space, picking its targets...i think the pilgrim got a good role and should stay as it is, coz it is already quite strong in its supposed role and btw, the tracking disruptor bonus is a good one for this role, it just needs to avoid missile-boats, but i guess every ship got some others, it better is not engaging solo... Pilot details - Kira Pasisson Cerberus 117 Vulture79 Falcon 69 Onyx 27 Nighthawk 8 Eagle 7 Manticore 3 Harpy 2 Rook 2 is that ships killed or ships used to get kills? Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat(or as i like to call it: Just because you are paranoid dont mean there isnt a invissible demon about to eat your face)
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Atomos Darksun If you give the Pilgrim a range bonus the Curse will become just the same as the Rook. Rep bonus or something, perhaps make it a strictly TD boat. What about Huggin? You know why the only reason the Curse is so common compared to the other Combat Recons? Because the other races Force Recons get the range bonus, which is so useful (obviously). But, you know, just keep saying how the pilgrim is fine, Im sure you'll eventually convince yourself. --
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Kira Pasisson Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 08/06/2008 22:19:42 well, as a cloaker the pilgrim can get close to a target unseen, so the range is not that important, furthermore it is able to field an impressive tank, which neither the falcon or the rapier are able to have if they still want to do what they are supposed to do....the damage bonus+the neut-ability makes the pilgrim a really nasty 1vs1 pvp ship, and a mess if u know u have one in ur 00 space, picking its targets...i think the pilgrim got a good role and should stay as it is, coz it is already quite strong in its supposed role and btw, the tracking disruptor bonus is a good one for this role, it just needs to avoid missile-boats, but i guess every ship got some others, it better is not engaging solo... Pilot details - Kira Pasisson Cerberus 117 Vulture79 Falcon 69 Onyx 27 Nighthawk 8 Eagle 7 Manticore 3 Harpy 2 Rook 2 is that ships killed or ships used to get kills? Pointing out Caldari pilot commentary on other ships....because Caldari are terrified of other races generally speaking . Erotic is helpful that way when not making fun of Stealth Bombers . Oh...and Kira....Falcon has no tank. Rapier can field a decent buffer and combine speed/webs for another kind of tank. The more you know Oh...and with 14 days left until I can start flying the Pilgrim...I'll take any ole boost...although some sort of either neut/nos range bonus improvement or even something new...like magical cap regen a la a certain logistic ship would be handy eliminating the need for stupid mid-slot wasting items like cap boosters, batteries, and other junk. Even a hair more CPU would be handy. Arazu, Rapier, and Falcon are probe-fit-friendly with Recon V...the Pilgrim requires faction this and that to do the same thing. I cant WAIT to fly it tbh . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Marcus Druallis What about Huggin? You know why the only reason the Curse is so common compared to the other Combat Recons? Because the other races Force Recons get the range bonus, which is so useful (obviously). But, you know, just keep saying how the pilgrim is fine, Im sure you'll eventually convince yourself. I never said the Pilgrim was fine. It's a piece of **, that's a fact. But you can't give it the same range bonus the Curse has, because then you have a Curse that can cloak. Why have a curse when you can just do it with that Pilgrim? Maybe give it half the range bonus the curse has, so it still has to operate within Point range but not in the web/death zone. Or something completely different, like make it a strictly awesome TD boat. Originally by:** Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.08 23:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/06/2008 23:18:53 Originally by: Storm Strike The pilgrim is fine . I know you all want to nano it and zoom around nueting people so how about flying a curse instead. How about we remove range bonuses from ALL the other force recons? I know you all want to zoom around and web, ecm and WD people from range and nano it. How about flying a huginn, rook and lachesis instead? Anyone who thinks that pilgrim is fine compared to the other force recons like rapier and falcon need their head examined.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 00:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Atomos Darksun Originally by: Marcus Druallis What about Huggin? You know why the only reason the Curse is so common compared to the other Combat Recons? Because the other races Force Recons get the range bonus, which is so useful (obviously). But, you know, just keep saying how the pilgrim is fine, Im sure you'll eventually convince yourself. I never said the Pilgrim was fine. It's a piece of **, that's a fact. But you can't give it the same range bonus the Curse has, because then you have a Curse that can cloak. Why have a curse when you can just do it with that Pilgrim? Maybe give it half the range bonus the curse has, so it still has to operate within Point range but not in the web/death zone. Or something completely different, like make it a strictly awesome TD boat. But did you read the OP. I'm saying that all other Force Recons get the range bonus. So what if the Pilgrim would become like the Curse. The Curse would still have more damage capability. What you are not seeing in my argument is the fact that ALL THE OTHER RECONS ARE BONUSED LIKE THIS**. --
Storm Strike	Posted - 2008.06.09 00:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/06/2008 23:18:53 Originally by: Storm Strike The pilgrim is fine . I know you all want to nano it and zoom around nueting people so how about flying a curse instead. How about we remove range bonuses from ALL the other force recons? I know you all want to zoom around and web, ecm and WD people from range and nano it. How about flying a huginn, rook and lachesis instead? Anyone who thinks that pilgrim is fine compared to the other force recons like rapier and falcon need their head examined. Do you insist that everything be the same or just not realize that the pilgrim is better than the other recons in ways that make up for its flaws.
Oktavious Oblivion	Posted - 2008.06.09 00:43:00 - [20] im game with removing all range bonuses from the force recons except the Falcon... its rteally meant to sit far away and jam... The rook however needs lots of help... And for all the NOOBS wanting to whine and complain about the pilgrim and its lack of bonus, just dont fly it... I love being able to sneak up to a ship uncloak and lock him down nuet him to death and just watch my drones chew away... only thing Im in agreeable terms for is maybe giving the thing a little more CPU so I can fit my recon launcher without major pain in the A*s

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Storm Strike Do you insist that everything be the same or just not realize that the pilgrim WAS better than the other recons in ways that make up for its flaws. Fixed. They broke pilgrim with several nerfs. Now they need to fix it. If you insist that pilgrim should do its thing (wich is basically to be a solo pvp ship to kill ratters and alike) then you need to give back some of the tools it needs for it. But dont you find it odd that this one single ship out of 8 ships doesnt fall into the pattern of how these 8 ships are designed? Combat recons get slightly more dps in trade for no cloak. This goes for all ships except pilgrim wich doesnt get the range bonus. Wouldnt you find it odd if a single interceptor was an oddball out of the 8? Like if the ares didnt get the signature bonus like all the other inties? The reason why this design was ok before for the pilgrim is because pilgrim was actually good at killing solo. Right now it isn't and because of range lacking it's worthless in gangs aswell. You sure you have flown a pilgrim lately?
Diomidis Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:18:00 - [22] Why are so many obsessed around the NOS-Neut range? Do you believe that this alone would fix the Pilgrim's weaknesses? What difference would it make? U would neut and make some nano-ships leave the fight? A ceptor or two maybe? WOW! what an accomplishment! You have to realize that a single medium NOS/Neut worths VERY little...surely it can scare of a frig that tries to web you or something, or might break a very weak tank or supply a bit of cap to barely systain your dps and/or tank a tad longer... Heavy Neuts are scary for medium/small ships, and that's what the Pilgrim/Curse are all about: these beast pack HEAVY neuts that consume the cap meds do, yet kill a lot more. A Pilrim without the amount bonus would do jack to a BS or even a BC class ship: the opponent could easily neut you back or simply $)&!+)$ with pure DPS, as their cap would last longer than yours, their cargo would probably hold more cap boosters etc... That's why TDs are so important, and by no way useless: at least you can disrupt some damage = gaining time = tank yourself, or even your gang mates. The only bonus the pilgrim can sacrifice is Drone dmg...it would make it a very weak ship for solo, yet Neuts and TDs are it's primary role...who needs 200-250 drone DPS ffs? But 2-3x strong hitting "heavy neuts" and 2-3x bonused TDs could turn the tide...in some cases at least... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Diomidis Why are so many obsessed around the NOS-Neut range? Do you believe that this alone would fix the Pilgrim's weaknesses? What difference would it make? U would neut and make some nano-ships leave the fight? A ceptor or two maybe? WOW! what an accomplishment! You have to realize that a single medium NOS/Neut worths VERY little...surely it can scare of a frig that tries to web you or something, or might break a very weak tank or supply a bit of cap to barely systain your dps and/or tank a tad longer... Heavy Neuts are scary for medium/small ships, and that's what the Pilgrim/Curse are all about: these beast pack HEAVY neuts that consume the cap meds do, yet kill a lot more. A Pilrim without the amount bonus would do jack to a BS or even a BC class ship: the opponent could easily neut you back or simply $)&!+)$ with pure DPS, as their cap would last longer than yours, their cargo would probably hold more cap boosters etc... That's why TDs are so important, and by no way useless: at least you can disrupt some damage = gaining time = tank yourself, or even your gang mates. The only bonus the pilgrim can sacrifice is Drone dmg...it would make it a very weak ship for solo, yet Neuts and TDs are it's primary role...who needs 200-250 drone DPS ffs? But 2-3x strong hitting "heavy neuts" and 2-3x bonused TDs could turn the tide...in some cases at least... Uhm, so what's wrong with reducing the pilgrims damage so it can get the neut range bonus? It would be a cloaking gang support ship that causes alot of trouble when it decloaks, just like falcon and rapier. Not good?
Storm Strike	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Storm Strike Do you insist that everything be the same or just not realize that the pilgrim WAS better than the other recons in ways that make up for its flaws. Fixed. They broke pilgrim with several nerfs. Now they need to fix it. If you insist that pilgrim should do its thing (wich is basically to be a solo pvp ship to kill ratters and alike) then you need to give back some of the tools it needs for it. But dont you find it odd that this one single ship out of 8 ships doesnt fall into the pattern of how these 8 ships are designed? Combat recons get slightly more dps in trade for no cloak. This goes for all ships except pilgrim wich doesnt get the range bonus. Wouldnt you find it odd if a single interceptor was an oddball out of the 8? Like if the ares didnt get the signature bonus like all the other inties? The reason why this design was ok before for the pilgrim is because pilgrim was actually good at killing solo. Right now it isn't and because of range lacking it's worthless in gangs aswell. You sure you have flown a pilgrim lately? It is as capable as it was. Most of these nerfs also provided a boost be it the drone bay size, tds that now effect falloff or even the nuets that people now fit due to the nos nerf. Pilgrims still died in the same circumstances before any of these changes. Im not against boosting the pilgrim in ways that do not fundamentally change the ship (leave the bonus alone).
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.09 02:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Lord WarATron CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. Can't be said enough. Mail me for free Redeemer BPCs :( send me the contract
Stuart Price Black Water.	Posted - 2008.06.09 03:50:00 - [26] Replace drone damage bonus with nos/neut range bonus. That will put the Pilgrim in line with the other force recons as far as the relation to combat recons is concerned. Yes, it will make it a frighteningly evil pvp ship but considering that every other ship I see flying around these days is a rapier (or don't see thanks to covops cloak as the case may be...) I'm not too bothered about that. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Stuart Price Replace drone damage bonus with nos/neut range bonus. That will put the Pilgrim in line with the other force recons as far as the relation to combat recons is concerned. Yes, it will make it a frighteningly evil pvp ship but considering that every other ship I see flying around these days is a rapier (or don't see thanks to covops cloak as the case may be...) I'm not too bothered about that. Exactly. It is the single ship that does not fall in line with the entire recon family. Drop the stupid DPS and Drone hitpoints bonus and put a range bonus for the neuts. For all of you people that are ignorant and sit there saying "Now what would that do for Pilgrim pilots? balh blah blah." Well, if you can't see it, then stop arguing right now, because it means you've realy never flown it. In gangs the pilgrim is a ******* pita because you have to fly to anything to actually use the neuts. And in these days everything is goddamn nanoed, so you can rarely ever get to anything to be effective AT ALL in gangs. This bonus would change that fact, and make the pilgrim formidable again. For all of you that say "but we will lose our favorite solo ship that we probably haven't flown in months and thus don't even realize it's short-comings," well, I say to you the phrase you've probably uttered in this very forums countless times: Adapt. --
Ghyran	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:43:00 - [28] Take away the damage bonus and i will hunt you down, pod you and then quit eve.
The ArchWarder Warped Mining	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:49:00 - [29] There is NOTHING WRONG with the pilgrim. What is wrong about it is the MODULES it uses, Tracking disrupter's got the shaft so therefore the bonus on the pilgrim to Tracking disrupter's needs to be boosted to 7.5% per level. Nos got the shaft so now you need to fit Neuts ( Which dose NOT kill your cap if your are smart, hell i dont even fit a cap booster on mine ) The pilgrim is still a great solo ship, if you actually took the time to fit it properly and use it you would find that taking ANY of the current bonuses away from the pilgrim in exchange for a range one is total nonsenses and would make it totally useless. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Corduroy Rab Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Atomos Darksun Originally by: Marcus Druallis What about Huggin? You know why the only reason the Curse is so common compared to the other Combat Recons? Because the other races Force Recons get the range bonus, which is so useful (obviously). But, you know, just keep saying how the pilgrim is fine, Im sure you'll eventually convince yourself. I never said the Pilgrim was fine. It's a piece of **, that's a fact. But you can't give it the same range bonus the Curse has, because then you have a Curse that can cloak. Why have a curse when you can just do it with that Pilgrim? Maybe give it half the range bonus the curse has, so it still has to operate within Point range but not in the web/death zone. Or something completely different, like make it a strictly awesome TD boat. But did you read the OP. I'm saying that all other Force Recons get the range bonus. So what if the Pilgrim would become like the Curse. The Curse would still have more damage capability. What you are not seeing in my argument is the fact that ALL THE OTHER RECONS ARE BONUSED LIKE THIS**. My guess would be that the pilgrim is different because NOS/Neut are more direct weapons than ECM/Damps and to a less extent webs. Don't get me wrong I would love for my pilgrim to have a nos/neut range bonus, but I can also see how that might make the ship a bit too good.

Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Corduroy Rab Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Atomos Darksun Originally by: Marcus Druallis What about Huggin? You know why the only reason the Curse is so common compared to the other Combat Recons? Because the other races Force Recons get the range bonus, which is so useful (obviously). But, you know, just keep saying how the pilgrim is fine, Im sure you'll eventually convince yourself. I never said the Pilgrim was fine. It's a piece of **, that's a fact. But you can't give it the same range bonus the Curse has, because then you have a Curse that can cloak. Why have a curse when you can just do it with that Pilgrim? Maybe give it half the range bonus the curse has, so it still has to operate within Point range but not in the web/death zone. Or something completely different, like make it a strictly awesome TD boat. But did you read the OP. I'm saying that all other Force Recons get the range bonus. So what if the Pilgrim would become like the Curse. The Curse would still have more damage capability. What you are not seeing in my argument is the fact that ALL THE OTHER RECONS ARE BONUSED LIKE THIS**. My guess would be that the pilgrim is different because NOS/Neut are more direct weapons than ECM/Damps and to a less extent webs. Don't get me wrong I would love for my pilgrim to have a nos/neut range bonus, but I can also see how that might make the ship a bit too good. The thing is though the argument still doesn't make sense (the other guys, not yours). I mean, why have a Huginn when you have a Rapier that can do everything the Huginn can, but also warp cloaked. The difference is, is that the combat recons do more damage. Thats it. Make it so with the Pilgrim and Curse. --
Corduroy Rab Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Marcus Druallis The thing is though the argument still doesn't make sense (the other guys, not yours). I mean, why have a Huginn when you have a Rapier that can do everything the Huginn can, but also warp cloaked. The difference is, is that the combat recons do more damage. Thats it. Make it so with the Pilgrim and Curse. I see what you are saying and that makes sense to me. I have to image though that CCP have considered this, if that is the case I would wonder why it was not implemented.
Kira Pasisson M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:00:00 - [33] Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 09/06/2008 08:01:54 LOL, u see erotic..., yes i am caldari pilot, but a) i have encountered pilgrims several times, b) i have and i had corp m8s who were able to use that ship properly, and although u might not know, it is possible to speak with others about ship setups, trying them in dogfight etc.... as oktavious said, the pilgrim can be used well if u got the skill and if u know what its for.... but as reducing the own unability to ccp's fault is common on this forum, just continue whining, i still would suggest that u should waste ur time rather to learning how to use the ship as it is than to cry cause u cant use it :P
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/06/2008 19:41:58 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. I just hate it when I have to agree with BoB pilots.... ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Kira Pasisson Edited by: Kira Pasisson on 09/06/2008 08:01:54 LOL, u see erotic..., yes i am caldari pilot, but a) i have encountered pilgrims several times, b) i have and i had corp m8s who were able to use that ship properly, and although u might not know, it is possible to speak with others about ship setups, trying them in dogfight etc.... as oktavious said, the pilgrim can be used well if u got the skill and if u know what its for.... but as reducing the own unability to ccp's fault is common on this forum, just continue whining, i still would suggest that u should waste ur time rather to learning how to use the ship as it is than to cry cause u cant use it :P Yes. We all agree it is a excellent Cov ops Hauler. But out of intrest, how would you fit a pilgrim for PvP? It... 1. Has to tank enemy DPS. Nano Pilgrim has to operate in Web range to neut/nos so its pointless nanoing 2. Drone DPS is not exactly that high, so has to neut targets to shut down their tank. 3. Lacks Hp to tank, therefore needs plates to last long enough for a drones to kill a ship after its cap is neuted. 4. Lacks powergrid to fit a MWD if you put on neuts/plate, making passing gatecamps in a afterburner a silly affair. Using Smaller plates means that a ratter can quite often kill you easaly. 5. Fitting a Afterburner means you need a web otherwise targets will MWD away from you 6. etc etc Pilgrim has a lot of major problems with it. Please do tell how you use your pilgrim, since without plates, it lacks hp to kill anything and cannot be nanoed due to having to nos/neut in web range. After all, the Raven, when it had its Railgun bonus a while back, was "Fine" according to people who never used it. -- Billion Isk Mission
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Lord WarATron Yes. We all agree it is a excellent Cov ops Hauler. But out of intrest, how would you fit a pilgrim for PvP? It... 1. Has to tank enemy DPS. Nano Pilgrim has to operate in Web range to neut/nos so its pointless nanoing 2. Drone DPS is not exactly that high, so has to neut targets to shut down their tank. So it has to operate in web range, thus needs conventional tank. 3. Lacks Hp to tank, therefore needs plates to last long enough for a drones to kill a ship after its cap is neuted. 4. Lacks powergrid to fit a MWD if you put on neuts/plate, making passing gatecamps in a afterburner a silly affair. Using Smaller plates means that a ratter can quite often kill you easaly. 5. Fitting a Afterburner means you need a web otherwise targets will MWD away from you 6. etc etc Pilgrim has a lot of major problems with it and is barely useable with egress rigs. Please do tell how you think people should use a pilgrim, since without plates, it lacks hp to kill anything and cannot be nanoed due to having to nos/neut in web range. After all, the Raven, when it had its Railgun bonus a while back, was "Fine" according to people who never used it. To be fair you are only looking at the ship from a null-sec/fleet perspective. In losec most of your points are irrelevent: "nano-Pilgrim" "lacks powergrid to fit MWD" etc etc. I actually have a fairly nice (to me) setup that works nicely with existing skills (including Recon V and max-near max supports). While not comparing the Pilgrim directly to the Rapier the bonusses and CPU requirements for the ship are slightly out of line with the rest of the Force Recon lineup. Minor tweaks to cap usage and CPU would go a long way to bringing the Pilgrim to equal parity with other Force Recons. I know you are BoB and all....but believe it or not combat ops do not begin and end with blobby crappy 0.0 examples . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:06:00 - [37] Viable targets are not too much around, as they need to match the following: - no cap-booster - no Heavy Neut/NOS - no Heavy Drones - no big HP passive Shield Tank - no capless weapons - no web This leaves a Pilgrim-Pilot with frigates, T1-cruisers, barges and haulers as viable targets. Some badly fitted Brutix or Prophecy might be an option aswell. .
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:09:00 - [38] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/06/2008 10:13:16 Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Lord WarATron Yes. We all agree it is a excellent Cov ops Hauler. But out of intrest, how would you fit a pilgrim for PvP? It... 1. Has to tank enemy DPS. Nano Pilgrim has to operate in Web range to neut/nos so its pointless nanoing 2. Drone DPS is not exactly that high, so has to neut targets to shut down their tank. So it has to operate in web range, thus needs conventional tank. 3. Lacks Hp to tank, therefore needs plates to last long enough for a drones to kill a ship after its cap is neuted. 4. Lacks powergrid to fit a MWD if you put on neuts/plate, making passing gatecamps in a afterburner a silly affair. Using Smaller plates means that a ratter can quite often kill you easaly. 5. Fitting a Afterburner means you need a web otherwise targets will MWD away from you 6. etc etc Pilgrim has a lot of major problems with it and is barely useable with egress rigs. Please do tell how you think people should use a pilgrim, since without plates, it lacks hp to kill anything and cannot be nanoed due to having to nos/neut in web range. After all, the Raven, when it had its Railgun bonus a while back, was "Fine" according to people who never used it. To be fair you are only looking at the ship from a null-sec/fleet perspective. In losec most of your points are irrelevent: "nano-Pilgrim" "lacks powergrid to fit MWD" etc etc. I actually have a fairly nice (to me) setup that works nicely with existing skills (including Recon V and max-near max supports). While not comparing the Pilgrim directly to the Rapier the bonusses and CPU requirements for the ship are slightly out of line with the rest of the Force Recon lineup. Minor tweaks to cap usage and CPU would go a long way to bringing the Pilgrim to equal parity with other Force Recons. I know you are BoB and all....but believe it or not combat ops do not begin and end with blobby crappy 0.0 examples . The list is for the solo pilgrim pvper. Not a blobfester. Since you have a good run of the Pilgrim, then please share your ideas. I do a quite bit of solo pvp as well, so assuming that everyone in 0.0 is a blobfester is not exactly accurate. With that said, im not really sure why you could use a pilgrim in a blobfest unless its a glorified cov ops for someone who lacks amarr frig lvl5 or a cyno alt. Back to point, please tell us how you made your pilgrim more competitive vs competent oponents. You cannot say something is wrong without giving a reason why, so I look forward to seeing how you use your pilgrim vs competent opponents that avoids the issues in my list. -- Billion Isk Mission
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:18:00 - [39] Please don't change my pilgrim into a cloaking curse with no punch far better fixes imo would involve some/all of the below: 1)more capacitor (of the order of a medium or large cap battery, negating need to fit one or an injector) 2)more cap recharge (same effect as 1) 3)more drone bandwidth (get a target down faster though this is the least conformist of the possiblilities) 4)more armor hp (allows a better passive tank) 5)more PG (for fitting plates and mwd or bigger plate) 6)higher base speed/lower base mass (so you can get mebbe 700m/s out of with it with an AB instead of the current 500m/s)
Kira Pasisson M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:37:00 - [40] sure u have to pick ur enemy carefully, but this is always the case in solo-pvp, against turret ships its fine, and i have seen pilgrims tanking a ****load of damage...finally the pilgrim at least got the solo-capability.

Seijitsu Nakama The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:45:00 - [41] Fix: Fly a curse. I do.
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:19:00 - [42] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 11:22:58 Originally by: Lord WarATron The list is for the solo pilgrim pvper. Not a blobfester. Since you have a good run of the Pilgrim, then please share your ideas. I do a quite bit of solo pvp as well, so assuming that everyone in 0.0 is a blobfester is not exactly accurate. With that said, im not really sure why you could use a pilgrim in a blobfest unless its a glorified cov ops for someone who lacks amarr frig lvl5 or a cyno alt. Back to point, please tell us how you made your pilgrim more competitive vs competent oponents. You cannot say something is wrong without giving a reason why, so I look forward to seeing how you use your pilgrim vs competent opponents that avoids the issues in my list. Amarr cruiser V completes in 13 days. Note I said works nicely with existing skills...I did not intend to imply experience beyond watching other excellent pilots fly this ship. The setup: [Pilgrim, Final] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Medium Armor Repairer II Internal Force Field Array I 10MN Afterburner II Domination Warp Scrambler Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Optimal Range Disruption Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Recon Probe Launcher I, Snoop Scanner Probe I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Energy Neutralizer II Anti-Thermic Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I Drones drones and more drones. For my intended usage I am quite confident the setup detailed will work fine...and also for very small gang work. With the exception of certain passive tank ships and missile spamming terrors like the Cerb/Raven I have every confidence the Pilgrim will perform just as capably as my Rapier...possibly more so given an active EWAR system AND a rather nasty short-range neut capability. It just means more comittment to the engagement due to short range. Not so easy to bail with a Pilgrim if things go pear-shaped. I must have misunderstood you. When I read your list seeing words like "gatecamp" and "nano" that mean diddly to me in losec flying a Recon I thought you were implying a certain combat style (el blob) that ain't my thing . In any case...I think the setup manages to tick your boxes in a reasonable manner aside from lack of MWD option for 0.0 and a couple semi-expensive faction bits required to make it work. Having Recon V and max/near-max fit skills utterly required. There are of course some obvious minor variations that allow for fitting 2 medium neuts or modified EWAR mids but you can poke those around yourself. Ditto rigs of preference. Ditto the AB..but I am Minmatar specialized for the most part and I find it difficult NOT to fit a prop mod . The probe launcher is an option of course. But for solo/small gang I find it to be virtually mandatory to maximize hunting opportunities. -I have no regrets in expending the SP time to fly this ship (oh-Curse as well-yeah) -I am confident it will perform as expected. -Drakes will remain safe from my attentions (I don't know why I bother trying). -If CCP decide to give the ship a boost-great. I won't complain. The Pilgrim pre-NOS balance was one of the most terrifying ships to have decloak on a victim (it scared the nuts off me the first time I was on the recieving end...from DE no less) and it still presents a significant threat. It won't take but a little tweak to CPU and perhaps some careful adjustment to cap warfare range ability (or DPS...or tank) to return the ship to its former glory and more even parity with other Force Recons able to engage from mid-long ranges. And yeah...its a setup from EFT. I have not flown it yet. Ship and mods are sitting in hangar awaiting installation. I'll let you know how it goes. EDITYeah you can save CPU with a Sister's launcher but that is a seriously expensive piece of gear to hang on a close-range ship. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:52:00 - [43] Edited by: achoura on 09/06/2008 11:55:11 Yes. We all agree it is a excellent Cov ops Hauler. But out of interest, how would you fit a pilgrim for PvP? It... 1. Has to tank enemy DPS. Nano Pilgrim has to operate in Web range to neut/nos so its pointless nanoing 2. Drone DPS is not exactly that high, so has to neut targets to shut down their tank. So it has to operate in web range, thus needs conventional tank. 3. Lacks Hp to tank, therefore needs plates to last long enough for a drones to kill a ship after its cap is neuted. 4. Lacks powergrid to fit a MWD if you put on neuts/plate, making passing gatecamps in a afterburner a silly affair. Using Smaller plates means that a ratter can quite often kill you easaly. 5. Fitting a Afterburner means you need a web otherwise targets will MWD away from you 6. etc etc Pilgrim has a lot of major problems with it and is barely useable with egress rigs. Please do tell how you think people should use a pilgrim, since without plates, it lacks hp to kill anything and cannot be nanoed due to having to nos/neut in web range. After all, the Raven, when it had its Railgun bonus a while back, was "Fine" according to people who never used it. Like this, just ignore that neut bonus that'll get you killed. Oh and for the rest asking for range bonus, it will never happen while nano ships are around. It plays on the original design of lasers (i.e. they're simply better) and actually has the cap to run them. [Pilgrim, Pew pew] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Pros: it can solo (ignoring what) where the other recons can't, it's the highest damaging f.recon, it has the strongest tank of the f.recons. Cons: completely ignores the ships intent (which means it survives), it's the least agile f.recon, it's a pain in the backside trying to find targets. Absurd as it may sound, if b.ops were a more viable class a small group of damage fitted pilgrims would go along way, it does at the least build on the arbitrators solo strengths and actually bring something useful (dps) to cloaked gangs. You would fit nos ofc, but you can also bet you'll be teh first ship to die and the last one out (meaning you still die). *The EVE servers and their patches*
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/06/2008 12:15:42 I love these theoretical Pilgrim EFT setups from people who have not experienced flying a pilgrim in real world pvp. -- Billion Isk Mission
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Erotic Irony on 09/06/2008 12:21:04 Originally by: RuleoftheBone 1600mm plate Not to be a contrarian but that fit is terrible--oversized plating just don't make much tactical sense anymore given how cheap and abundant rigs and 3% implants are. Single TD, one med neut, faction point, AB, recon launcher? Will this stand up a 6 week old ratting drake in low sec? You can't tank sentries and I suspect with an AB, getting stuck on low sec asteroids will be a bigger problem than whatever ship you're trying to destroy. There's essentially one fit that is realistic and WarAtron and I have been harping on this, second best hauler after Redeemer. Everything else is comedy option, 4x ECM, plating, dual rep, quad nos shield tank, HG slaves; the list just goes on and on but their real utility is almost completely absent. The DPS is poor, the hit points are terrible, and your targets are almost always the same, noobs in tech one cruisers belt ratting. A broadsword would probably serve you better in every situation you think the pilgrim excels at. I sincerely hope you don't actually fly this because its just going to be a waste of your time--the barriers to pilgrim entry are huge, excellent drone skills, excellent cap and engineering skills and practically recon 5 for any "tank build," when a ship requires such a tremendous skill investment just to qualify as functional or below average (See Black Ops) there is a problem. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:32:00 - [46] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/06/2008 12:33:27 Originally by: Erotic Irony Not to be a contrarian but that fit is terrible--oversized plating just don't make much tactical sense anymore given how cheap and abundant rigs and 3% implants are. Single TD, one med neut, faction point, AB, recon launcher? Will this stand up a 6 week old ratting drake in low sec? Given I've soloed a two month old one in a Wolf, yeah, it'll stand up to it Even though drakes aren't its target of choice (while something based on cap-using or range-limited turrets is). I'd debate the kin/therm rigs (why not trimarks?), but oh well. Originally by: Erotic Irony You can't tank sentries and I suspect with an AB, getting stuck on low sec asteroids will be a bigger problem than whatever ship you're trying to destroy. Don't get stuck on asteroids? Anyway, no force recon is going to kill anything other then a hauler under sentries (and many cannot be configured to tank them whatever you do). I suspect the fit is for hunting mission runners a lot, which explains the recon probe launcher and the AB (partially, mostly it's there due to fitting issues obviously). Originally by: Erotic Irony A broadsword would probably serve you better in every situation you think the pilgrim excels at. It wouldn't as it doesn't have a covops cloak or recon probe launcher. Anyway, it's a shame MWD doesn't fit properly on a Pilgrim, and its CPU is gimped as well (that fit is so full of faction stuff to even get a fit!) - boosting PG/CPU/cap would make it a far superior solo ship then it is now. Having to make such a horribly expensive fit to make it fit (with just one neut) bites, but I can't wait to hear how it pans out for Bone really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:56:00 - [47] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 11:22:58 Amarr cruiser V completes in 13 days. Note I said works nicely with existing skills...I did not intend to imply experience beyond watching other excellent pilots fly this ship. The setup: [Pilgrim, Final] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Medium Armor Repairer II Internal Force Field Array I 10MN Afterburner II Domination Warp Scrambler Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Optimal Range Disruption Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Recon Probe Launcher I, Snoop Scanner Probe I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Energy Neutralizer II Anti-Thermic Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I Drones drones and more drones. For my intended usage I am quite confident the setup detailed will work fine...and also for very small gang work. With the exception of certain passive tank ships and missile spamming terrors like the Cerb/Raven I have every confidence the Pilgrim will perform just as capably as my Rapier...possibly more so given an active EWAR system AND a rather nasty short-range neut capability. It just means more comittment to the engagement due to short range. Not so easy to bail with a Pilgrim if things go pear-shaped. I must have misunderstood you. When I read your list seeing words like "gatecamp" and "nano" that mean diddly to me in losec flying a Recon I thought you were implying a certain combat style (el blob) that ain't my thing . In any case...I think the setup manages to tick your boxes in a reasonable manner aside from lack of MWD option for 0.0 and a couple semi-expensive faction bits required to make it work. Having Recon V and max/near-max fit skills utterly required. There are of course some obvious minor variations that allow for fitting 2 medium neuts or modified EWAR mids but you can poke those around yourself. Ditto rigs of preference. Ditto the AB..but I am Minmatar specialized for the most part and I find it difficult NOT to fit a prop mod . The probe launcher is an option of course. But for solo/small gang I find it to be virtually mandatory to maximize hunting opportunities. -I have no regrets in expending the SP time to fly this ship (oh-Curse as well-yeah) -I am confident it will perform as expected. -Drakes will remain safe from my attentions (I don't know why I bother trying). -If CCP decide to give the ship a boost-great. I won't complain. The Pilgrim pre-NOS balance was one of the most terrifying ships to have decloak on a victim (it scared the nuts off me the first time I was on the recieving end...from DE no less) and it still presents a significant threat. It won't take but a little tweak to CPU and perhaps some careful adjustment to cap warfare range ability (or DPS...or tank) to return the ship to its former glory and more even parity with other Force Recons able to engage from mid-long ranges. And yeah...its a setup from EFT. I have not flown it yet. Ship and mods are sitting in hangar awaiting installation. I'll let you know how it goes. EDITYeah you can save CPU with a Sister's launcher but that is a seriously expensive piece of gear to hang on But see, this is why people tell you to fly the ship before telling others how it performs. You are sitting there telling us the ship is fine, yet you plan to fit ONE medium neut and 1 small neut? Really? --
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Cpt Branko Given I've soloed a two month old one in a Wolf, yeah, it'll stand up to it You killed a pilgrim in a wolf, am I reading this correctly? So what? Ignoring that after skimming about 30 pages of your battleclinic history and the Night's Dawn to find this km of a pilgrim--I think you made my point as that pilgrim is very similar with one Rule posted: AB, 1600, tank rigs. Doesn't matter how heavy you think the pilgrim tank is on paper, in reality it's totally outclassed. I have a fit I'm playing with in EFT, overheated triple nuets and ~3-4 min hull tank, this sounds nice but its just as abortive as every other pilgrim fitting, you're better off with a deimos or even a thorax for those so called pilgrim builds. In any event, the point is moot as anecdotal evidence is not valid evidence. Originally by: Don't get stuck on asteroids? Anyway, no force recon is going to kill anything other then a hauler under sentries (and many cannot be configured to tank them whatever you do). I suspect the fit is for hunting mission runners a lot, which explains the recon probe launcher and the AB (partially, mostly it's there due to fitting issues obviously). This may be valid but to what extent does it demonstrate the pilgrim is useful? Is there any better ship for this task? I'd be willing to bet there is. Quote: Originally by: Erotic Irony A broadsword would probably serve you better in every situation you think the pilgrim excels at. It wouldn't as it doesn't have a covops cloak or recon probe launcher. Anyway, it's a shame MWD doesn't fit properly on a Pilgrim, and its CPU is gimped as well (that fit is so full of faction stuff to even get a fit!) - boosting PG/CPU/cap would make it a far superior solo ship then it is now. Having to make such a horribly expensive fit to make it fit (with just one neut) bites, but I can't wait to hear how it pans out for Bone really. I hope it works out for him too but you don't need a cloak to be effective in low sec. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:07:00 - [49] Originally by: Marcus Druallis But see, this is why people tell you to fly the ship before telling others how it performs. You are sitting there telling us the ship is fine, yet you plan to fit ONE medium neut and 1 small neut? Really? Yes. Sufficient for the work I need it to do. Think about the setup a bit and read the comments. And the faction stuff is not overly expensive btw. YMMV. And Lord Waratron...you can dismiss my not having flown it. Yet. Fair enough. But aside from tossing out a one-liner disregarding another pilots experience. knowledge, and abilities your counter-post does not actually critique the setup for its intended purposes. Guess we'll have to see what the ole KB (and my loot hangar) say in a month's time. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:24:00 - [50] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/06/2008 13:30:28 Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Cpt Branko Given I've soloed a two month old one in a Wolf, yeah, it'll stand up to it You killed a pilgrim in a wolf, am I reading this correctly? I was actually reffering to your 'can't take out a two month old Drake ratter' - I took one of those out in a Wolf, so a Pilgrim should definitely cut it. You're not going to take out a Pilgrim in a AF of any sort Anyway, I've killed a few Pilgrims in my Hurricane, and I'm preety confident that even with the TD buff he'd be very hard pressed vs a Hurricane in that setup, but I don't see any other cloaky recons soloing it either. And yeah, I've found that they don't tank all that well or take that much fire if they're getting shot accurately. One TD should help somewhat, but ultimately, you'll be extremely hard pressed to take a cap-independent BC-sized ship down in the Pilgrim. Then again, it would be a overpowered soloer if it could do all the curse does and have a recon probe launcher and a cloak. Originally by: Erotic Irony Quote: Anyway, no force recon is going to kill anything other then a hauler under sentries (and many cannot be configured to tank them whatever you do). I suspect the fit is for hunting mission runners a lot, which explains the recon probe launcher and the AB (partially, mostly it's there due to fitting issues obviously). This may be valid but to what extent does it demonstrate the pilgrim is useful? Is there any better ship for this task? I'd be willing to bet there is. Well, for many roles there are more useful ships. The only viable roles I see are preying on lone ratters in belts (or safes) and killing mission runners. A Arazu or Rapier might do this somewhat better, but the Pilgrim does better DPS/can disable a target better. Admittedly, while taking a much bigger risk itself. Originally by: Erotic Irony Quote: A broadsword would probably serve you better in every situation you think the pilgrim excels at. It wouldn't as it doesn't have a covops cloak or recon probe launcher. Anyway, it's a shame MWD doesn't fit properly on a Pilgrim, and its CPU is gimped as well (that fit is so full of faction stuff to even get a fit!) - boosting PG/CPU/cap would make it a far superior solo ship then it is now. Having to make such a horribly expensive fit to make it fit (with just one neut) bites, but I can't wait to hear how it pans out for Bone really. I hope it works out for him too but you don't need a cloak to be effective in low sec. Well, it'd be extremely handy. It provides the element of suprise (and you're the one picking a fight), and if you don't have a MWD, it's your only recourse at gates with a cruiser+ sized ship anyway. Furhtermore, for tackling mission-runners in deadspace, it's preety good, although a Arazu does that way better (but a cloak IS nice, smart people don't stick in at the warpin point), but I see it working there given it can gank your active-tank mission runners with the med+small neut plus the extra DPS it has. I mean, I agree it's horribly gimped fitting-wise, because having to drop to 1 medium neut plus one small and a AB on top of that is making a lot of fitting sacrifices, not to mention having to use faction stuff on it to just get a fit (domination scram, etc). Making it have the range of a Curse would make it a godly soloer (better then any other T2 cruiser-sized hull, etc). Webrange / out of webrange range in EvE is just incredibly huge. Originally by: Ruleofthebone And the Pilgrim kill highlighted by Erotic was dusted by a Hurricane/Drake combo...hardly a clever choice for the pilot to engage. Actually, I scanned the Pilgrim+Ferox looting stuff in a anomaly, and the Drake got there with the Pilgrim already in structure, and I was dealing with the Pilgrim and Ferox (crap fit one) for a solid minute. Was a very fun fight though, ended up with 61% structure, thanks to Tanis carrying 800s. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:34:00 - [51] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:36:05 Originally by: Erotic Irony A broadsword would probably serve you better in every situation you think the pilgrim excels at. I hope it works out for him too but you don't need a cloak to be effective in low sec. -The Broadsword is a boring 1 dimensional ship to fly. Ganking haulers at losec gates aint my thing and blowing up "fhfhgh's Itty IV" only to get ganked by the first competent pilots to come along is a stupid waste of ISK. No probe launcher, no cloak, no drones, no ewar, no DPS. -It's not the cloak...although discretion is handy. It's the probe launcher that makes a ship MORE effective in that the pilot has additional means to find and land on targets. When I fly a Vagabond or Huginn...people see it on scan and dock or I draw a blob. I'm sure its similar for many Curse pilots....nobody WANTS to deal with a Curse if they can avoid it....or without some help. It's different piloting styles too. I'm not playing CS:Space. I enjoy the stalk...the hunt. Getting the kill is usually anti-climatic tbh (exception=unexpected faction drops from randoms ). "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:41:00 - [52] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:23:38 Originally by: Marcus Druallis But see, this is why people tell you to fly the ship before telling others how it performs. You are sitting there telling us the ship is fine, yet you plan to fit ONE medium neut and 1 small neut? Really? Yes. Sufficient for the work I need it to do. Think about the setup a bit and read the comments. And the faction stuff is not overly expensive btw. YMMV. And Lord Waratron...you can dismiss my not having flown it. Yet. Fair enough. But aside from tossing out a one-liner disregarding another pilots experience. knowledge, and abilities your counter-post does not actually critique the setup for its intended purposes. Guess we'll have to see what the ole KB (and my loot hangar) say in a month's time. EDITBranko is correct. Setup is primarily for mission busting and engaging lone targets. And the Pilgrim kill highlighted by Erotic was dusted by a Hurricane/Drake combo...hardly a clever choice for the pilot to engage. Knowing what I know of mission/anomaly work the setup I detailed will work better than my Rapier. For open space...my Rapier will always be favored. For deadspace and similar...the Pilgrim is a more sensible choice. Final editThere is flexibility in the design. Read my entire post to decipher why. Until CCP decided to boost the ship in some fashion I fully intend to make it work as is..and as something other than a 0.0 hauler. I'm not even going to argue with you on this matter. Just saying your fit is sub-par and is not taking advantage of the one bonus on the ship that makes it useful. When you lose the ship, remember this thread. I will never acknowledge your opinions about a ship until you've flown it, period. This is because I've even done what you're doing now: looking at EFT and saying, "Ohh, that looks like it could work." When in reality its a horrible fitting and there is a reason people don't fit it like that. People have been complaining about the Pilgrim for a while, no offense, but you're not going to come out of the blue and fix it while you've never even piloted it. Not trying to sound like a ****, but I'm just saying... --
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:43:00 - [53] Originally by: RuleoftheBone -The Broadsword is a boring 1 dimensional ship to fly. Ganking haulers at losec gates aint my thing and blowing up "fhfhgh's Itty IV" only to get ganked by the first competent pilots to come along is a stupid waste of ISK. No probe launcher, no cloak, no drones, no ewar, no DPS. This is true, but it excels as a gang ship for tackling on gates in small gangs, love it for that purpose. Doing it solo and without scouts would be suicide though ;P Originally by: RuleoftheBone -It's not the cloak...although discretion is handy. It's the probe launcher that makes a ship MORE effective in that the pilot has additional means to find and land on targets. When I fly a Vagabond or Huginn...people see it on scan and dock or I draw a blob. I'm sure its similar for many Curse pilots....nobody WANTS to deal with a Curse if they can avoid it....or without some help. Tbh. If I'm in my Hurricane and I'm still in the belt when a Curse/Huggin lands on me, it either means I was scrambled by something else (basically: got trapped), or it's a trap. There is no concieveable reason to get caught by a Recon which you know will 100% kill you (Curse specifically) other then being drunk and passing out or not looking at your scanner at all and not being aligned. The power of covops cloaks is precisely that you can avoid your targets bugging out when they see a ship they have no chance of taking on scanner (while I'll stick around for a Vagabond, I know a Vagabond is not likely to kill me and if he makes any mistakes he's one dead Vagabond). Covops cloak removes the first part of your defence. Namely, not being there in the first place That's why it's so powerful. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:50:00 - [54] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:52:45 Alright Branko...you know and I know that I am a cloak/probe ***. Most of the time. The combination is soooooo choice . And one little point as well. The Pilgrim also offers a reason to use a two-point scram that I cannot with a Rapier+24km single point. Having lost plenty of targets to the inevitable WCS fittings the Pilgrim will also help up my percentage of "keepers" when flying solo. EDITOnly real downside to flying Pilgrim I can see is not being able to ninja-pop cyno alts for giggles . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the ** out of my way" General George Patton USA
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:21:00 - [55] My apologies, i pasted and eft note believing (even simpletons) would realise it's viable, fit an ab instead of mwd, fit neuts or 1600 plate but eventually those folk will come to realise how screwed this ship and will pop along to the ageing 34 page thread already on it. Many ppl gave up flying it when we lost out nos ability, neuts are great almost doubling the cap robbed but that efficiency means sweet fa when everyone's got cap rigs as standard and not as a counter (as they would eccm) either, although that is the final effect. If a ship doesn't work like it should the pilot has two options, either battle on knowing the futility or find another use, personally i chose the former, loosing neuts and staying out of webs wasn't exactly a trade, it was live or die. Still, the prevalence of nano hacs and over saturation if mimi recons means i rarly bother any more, an uncloaked pilgrim is usually a dead pilgrim in todays environment. Oh and i love these people who use the word "real" when comparing eve *The EVE servers and their patches*
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:30:00 - [56] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 14:07:57 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:56:54 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:52:45 EDITThe more I think about it the more a range bonus to the neut/nos capabilites of the Pilgrim would be hugely overpowered. If any improvement is intended hopefully the designers look at DPS/cap/CPU/something drone related for potential boosts bearing in mind the close range nature of the ship. And why is this? When you make sweeping generalizations like that it helps to provide some reason. All of the other Force Recon ships get the range bonus. How is a ranged neut bonus (which is already found on the Curse) be any more overpowered than a ranged web bonus. You are not making any sense. --
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:39:00 - [57] curse range/neut amount bonus + another low + covops cloak =/= OP to you? I would prefer they try and fix it while maintaining its differences from the rest of the recon traits. I don't think another curse but with a cloak is a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't fly it, as most of the fun in flying a pilgrim is going toe to toe and winning.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:43:00 - [58] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/06/2008 16:43:10 Sigh. Lets go over this again 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship (unless its a cyno/cov ops scout for people without amarr frig 5.) 2. For a pilgrim to kill a ratter, it needs to tank the damage a ratter will do till ratter dies. 3. For the pilgrim to kill a hauler, it needs no explanation 4. For pilgrim to kill ratter & transport ships at a gate, it needs to quickly web/scram it to stop it mwd back to gate. Nanoed AB Haulers can also easaly get back to the gate Firstly, if all you kill is barges in lowsec belts, and the odd hauler, then good for you because any force recon can do that. Good luck getting a pilgrim to tank sentries while killing the target if you are camping low sec gates in one (remember sentries kill your drones). If you are using pilgrim in 0.0 to kill random targets, then let us move forward...... First - to get past any *Competent* gatecamp in 0.0, you need a MWD. A Afterburner will give you a very high chance of being decloaked before you leave the bubble. Secondly, all *Competent* people in 0.0 carry a mwd, so unless you have a MWD, most of your targets will MWD out of your range and warp or MWD back to the gate. If you are talking about killing incompetent people, then you are in the wrong thread. Ok next - you lock a target and start to kill it. Pilgrim has low damage so you need to be able to tank the damage that a ratter does till you can kill him. Oh great. Most ratters will end up tanking your damage output so best bet is to shut down their tank with Nos/Neuts. Sadly that means that you have no choice but to use a conventional tank. Nano tanks do not work I am afraid. Ok, now we agreed that we need a MWD & Conventional Tank, Pilgrim lacks damage so risk always is going to be people bringing in backup. However that is a universal risk anyway. However in the pilgrims case, you have no choice but to operate in web range if you want to use your nos/neut. The curse does not have this problem. What does that mean? Well, it kills any idea of using a speed tank. And if you are attacking targets at a gate - you need a web to slow people to stop them MWDing back to gate. And if you have a MWD yourself, you have problems fitting a setup that can tank ratters and if you have a setup that can tank ratters and have a MWD, then you have problems shutting down the enemy tank resulting in stalemates or worse. Long story short, the pilgrim is forced to fit a certain way because of the reality of how pvp work. If you are killing incompetents then you can even put on smartbombs on your pilgrim and "claim" it is great. -- Billion Isk Mission
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 14:07:57 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:56:54 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:52:45 EDITThe more I think about it the more a range bonus to the neut/nos capabilites of the Pilgrim would be hugely overpowered. If any improvement is intended hopefully the designers look at DPS/cap/CPU/something drone related for potential boosts bearing in mind the close range nature of the ship. And why is this? When you make sweeping generalizations like that it helps to provide some reason. All of the other Force Recon ships get the range bonus. How is a ranged neut bonus (which is already found on the Curse) be any more overpowered than a ranged web bonus. You are not making any sense. The other Force Recon bonusses are balanced for range of engagement. Extending the neut/nos range PLUS covops cloak may be a smidge overpowered. Don't get me wrong...by all means boost away. Just for the right reasons. A ranged neut bonus sounds nice but sort of detracts from the in-your-face nature of the ship. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:25:00 - [60] Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people.

Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:26:00 - [61] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 14:07:57 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:56:54 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 13:52:45 EDITThe more I think about it the more a range bonus to the neut/nos capabilites of the Pilgrim would be hugely overpowered. If any improvement is intended hopefully the designers look at DPS/cap/CPU/something drone related for potential boosts bearing in mind the close range nature of the ship. And why is this? When you make sweeping generalizations like that it helps to provide some reason. All of the other Force Recon ships get the range bonus. How is a ranged neut bonus (which is already found on the Curse) be any more overpowered than a ranged web bonus. You are not making any sense. The other Force Recon bonusses are balanced for range of engagement. Extending the neut/nos range PLUS covops cloak may be a smidge overpowered. Don't get me wrong...by all means boost away. Just for the right reasons. A ranged neut bonus sounds nice but sort of detracts from the in-your-face nature of the ship. Therein lies the difference, it isn't in your face by design--that part is incidental. It's the mark of an absent bonus that should have been there since recons were released and nos changed. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:30:00 - [62] Originally by: Captator curse range/neut amount bonus + another low + covops cloak =/= OP to you? I would prefer they try and fix it while maintaining its differences from the rest of the recon traits. I don't think another curse but with a cloak is a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't fly it, as most of the fun in flying a pilgrim is going toe to toe and winning. Excuse me but do you actually fly the pilgrim? Do you actually solo kill anything in that thing that you couldnt have killed in a arbitrator? And if you use it in a gang, why not just get a sentinel instead? alot cheaper.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Captator curse range/neut amount bonus + another low + covops cloak =/= OP to you? I would prefer they try and fix it while maintaining its differences from the rest of the recon traits. I don't think another curse but with a cloak is a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't fly it, as most of the fun in flying a pilgrim is going toe to toe and winning. Excuse me but do you actually fly the pilgrim? Do you actually solo kill anything in that thing that you couldnt have killed in a arbitrator? And if you use it in a gang, why not just get a sentinel instead? alot cheaper. I do fly it, though to date I have flown it in small gangs more than solo (this I plan to remedy), I haven't flown a sentinel yet so I cannot comment on that. A lot of the targets you can take on in a pilgrim you can take on in an arbitrator true, (plate fit 2x TD no web stay outside webrange) but a pilgrim allows me to act as a scout that can hold a point nicely (if in gang), and to scout my target properly before engaging, as well as not revealing myself to a potential target until I want to strike. TDwise you are equally viable in an arbitrator, but you cannot kill a target if you cannot break its tank - pilgrim/arbi at 9km with 2 range disruptors puts most turret ships into their second falloff, so you can negate a lot of damage there while you kill off drones (why the plate is nice). Alternatively I try to get in close, switch to tracking speed disruption, and if you are <500m even in a very slow orbit (ie webbed), a BS will have a lot of difficulty tracking, or just try and maintain 0 range so tracking formula doesn't work. Versus missile ships (and this is an afaik thing, as I haven't been in a position to test it recently) if you are very close torps cannot turn fast enough to hit you, especially if you have reasonable speed. Cruise and heavy/HAM are a problem, and consequently I wouldn't take on a target like that readily (here the ability to watch your target while cloaked and decide whether you want to engage is very handy) Perhaps if a range bonus was to be applied, half of the bonus could be a role bonus: eg: 50% range bonus to nos/neuts (for both ships), then the curse could be restored to normal with a 30% per level range and 20% drain amount bonus, and the pilgrim could just recieve the drain amount bonus, giving the pilgrim a 16-19km operating range. (figures subject to tweaking ofc)
RuleoftheBone Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:35:00 - [64] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 09/06/2008 18:39:14 Originally by: Captator EDIT: I am in no way denying that the pilgrim needs a boost, the nos nerf really did a number on it, as did HP buff, but I would rather it is not just turned into a cloaky curse, amarr recons have far greater individual character compared to the other races, and if possible I would like it to stay this way. Thank you for expressing better in one paragraph what I was trying to convey across multiple posts . EDITAnd regarding: Therein lies the difference, it isn't in your face by design--that part is incidental. So its incidental. Why not build on that? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Callyente	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:38:00 - [65] Personally, and this is just mho, I would like to see this done to the pilgrim. Remove the damage bonus and replace it with either an armor amount bonus or armor resists bonus. That's all for it's bonuses. Then change the drone bandwidth to 125 so if can field heavies to make up for the loss of drone damage. Similar to the Ishtar. After all, it's supposed to be a drone boat too right? Along the lines of the Arbi? That's all I wanted to say. =) p.s. And yes I still have actually flown a pilgrim on multiple times. Even took out a deimos and harbi 2v1. I just think it could be better suited to the role it is put in. Close up in your face recon.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Callyente Personally, and this is just mho, I would like to see this done to the pilgrim. Remove the damage bonus and replace it with either an armor amount bonus or armor resists bonus. That's all for it's bonuses. Then change the drone bandwidth to 125 so if can field heavies to make up for the loss of drone damage. Similar to the Ishtar. After all, it's supposed to be a drone boat too right? Along the lines of the Arbi? That's all I wanted to say. =) p.s. And yes I still have actually flown a pilgrim on multiple times. Even took out a deimos and harbi 2v1. I just think it could be better suited to the role it is put in. Close up in your face recon. But why make one of 8 recons a pure combat recon when recons obviously are very crap at combat. They get their asses handed to them by quite a large amount of ships generally. Why not just make the pilgrim a range bonused recon gang ships just like the other 7 recons?
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:50:00 - [67] because they keep the 2 bonuses from the t1 hull (drone damage, TD effectiveness), and giving it the range bonus when compared to the curse (range, amount) would have no value, so they opted to give it the amount bonus instead. From a purely bonus trend point of view it is logical, but the end result is a product that flies completely differently to the others. One can argue that the the t2 bonuses on the bellicose hull should be webrange/strength on huginn, and webrange/cloak on rapier. For celestis hulls, point range/damp range(or point strength) for lach and point range/cloak for arazu. Caldari recons you have a similar occurence to the pilgrim, where the t2 bonuses are strength/range on rook, and strength/cloak on falcon.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:59:00 - [68] Originally by: Captator because they keep the 2 bonuses from the t1 hull (drone damage, TD effectiveness), and giving it the range bonus when compared to the curse (range, amount) would have no value, so they opted to give it the amount bonus instead. From a purely bonus trend point of view it is logical, but the end result is a product that flies completely differently to the others. One can argue that the the t2 bonuses on the bellicose hull should be webrange/strength on huginn, and webrange/cloak on rapier. For celestis hulls, point range/damp range(or point strength) for lach and point range/cloak for arazu. Caldari recons you have a similar occurence to the pilgrim, where the t2 bonuses are strength/range on rook, and strength/cloak on falcon. Do you know why pilgrim needs that strength bonus? Because unlike long range webs, scrams and ecm, the neut/nos is a size based ew. wich means you have to give it a bonus so it can be effective enough. And you have to give it range. This is why pilgrim ends up with one less bonus basically and is doomed to suck if ccp doesn't fix that. So we need the neut amount bonus. We need a range bonus. We need the cloak bonus. One bonus left...They nerfed the drones and 5 unbonused medium drones do less damage then some inties out there. They need to switch the damage bonus to a range bonus on pilgrim and increase the drone bandwidth to compensate for the loss. This way pilgrim will get inline because you will have built in that extra bonus that was missing in this ship because of neuts being size dependent ew modules.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:09:00 - [69] So do you propose 100m3 bandwidth 200m3 bay and a range and amount bonus? alternatively, why not amalgamate the bonuses into one and give curse an em missile bonus (it is a khanid ship is it not?)
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:24:00 - [70] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/06/2008 19:25:05 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. Unconventional setups that work are great. I was probebly the first Shield Tanked Launcher Curse pilot out there. DG fitted Fleet Rokhs to get around the tracking issue was a more intresting thing I did, as far I am aware, I was the only guy who ever done it. However, stuff like laser/smartbomb/etc pilgrim just does not work that properly. I tried a blaster/laser pilgrim and they look freeky but ultimatly you relise you are better off training another race's force recon. Which is what I did. If you can justify a situation where a turret pilgrim fits a gap that other ships cannot do, then thats sounds great. However, such gaps in which someone would want a turret pilgrim are mostly limited to test server style pvp and eft. -- Billion Isk Mission

Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:24:00 - [71] I own a pilgrim and fly it occasionally.. heres my fit. Cloak, Med Neut, 2x Med Nos Mwd, Med Cap Injector, Disruptor, Web, TD 2x MAR, EANM, Active Thermic Hardener, DC Aux Nano Pump, Kinetic Resist rig This is very hard to fit b/c of cpu, but does okay for killing turret based ships. Also, you cant perma-run your neut with reps, but its the most survivable fit I can think of. That said, I personally think the pilgrim should get 18km nos/neut range(with Recon5).. Just enough to get it out of web range but not be a cloaking curse. my 2 cents
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 - [72] Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Captator So do you propose 100m3 bandwidth 200m3 bay and a range and amount bonus? alternatively, why not amalgamate the bonuses into one and give curse an em missile bonus (it is a khanid ship is it not?) Whatever gives pilgrim range and dps comparable to the other recons. My suggestion would do it.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:37:00 - [74] so would mine , with the added advantage that you keep 3 flights of medium drones (which are faster and track better) and the curse gets a khanid related bonus.
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too. I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Methem I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. Would a cloaking pilgrim with 40km neuts be more overpowered then a 150km jamming cloaking surprise falcon?
Methem interimo	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. Would a cloaking pilgrim with 40km neuts be more overpowered then a 150km jamming cloaking surprise falcon? You are comparing apples and oranges. Falcon does not solo kill anything.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Methem You are comparing apples and oranges. Falcon does not solo kill anything. That is because their ew has ALOT more range and is ALOT more disabling then the amarr one. In return you can solo a bit better with an amarr recon. It's balanced.
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:10:00 - [79] I fly a curse primarily. Hell, I'm seriously considering a HG Talisman set and a Domination/Republic Fleet warp disruptor just to inject that much more ownage into it. But I cannot for the life of me find a single setup for the Pilgrim that doesn't give me huge misgivings. Afterburner setups? Are you kidding me? The only thing it does better is cloaked hauling. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:23:00 - [80] It's funny, the op only wanted to know why the pilgrim doesn't get the range bonus like all the other recons do and the simple answer is the devs were scared it would be overpowered (this wa obviously at the forefront of their minds when they tinkered wth the falcon ofc ), and it spawned 3 pages . Anyway lord recons are gang ships by design, well they're ment to be, but the 4,5,5 layout almost lends ishtar lvl flexibility to the ship albeit at the cost of a bonus. 350+ dps with fmp is not exactly what i'd call low, compare it to the other f.recons and it the highest by a good margin although you wont kill any southern ratters with it (good thing i live in the north then ), and most competent ratters down also pack webs which scorch avoids. Oh an fyi 1 nano pump on that and it tank sentries, if pick on haulers is your thing ofc . You claim to be open minded yet you so quickly dismiss a build by another player because it does not fit neatly into your playing niche? I'm well aware you carry both an ab and mwd for swapping out however when i made the decision to take my neuts off (after battling on sever month after the nerfs) i really don't give a hoot what your opinion is, it works for me and more importantly it works well, haven't lost a single one since i moved from 5k to 20k. As i said for damage in a cloaked gang it cant be beat, and it'll kill ratters up here too provided you use the rats damage (isn't that what the smart pilots all do) and thankfully not everyone uses ravens so a single td should be sufficient to keep you alive now they effect falloff too. I would occasionally drop the tackle for addition td but rally with a falcon or tow you have all the ewar you'll never need, really if that's what you want there's not much point in flying anything else these days. Oh and invest in the disruptor m8, it freed enough cpu up for me to add a recon launcher to my last high *The EVE servers and their patches*

Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the **** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:40:00 - [82] Originally by: Methem Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Methem but not be a cloaking curse. Rapier is a cloaking huginn, falcons is a cloaking rook and arazu is a cloaking lachesis. Where does all this anti cloaking curse wave come from? You anti cloak-curse then you should be anti 3 other ships that behave exactly like that too. I think it would be overpowered. But thats my opinion, you are entitled to your own. And my opinion is strictly that your opinion is wrong. --
Diomidis Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the ** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. Imagine the pain I'm going through, having to agree with both Bobbits AND Lyria! Hey, the Pilgrim can perform in gang...you just neglect the NOS/Neut bonus, warp in at 100km from the gate, and fit MWD + SB + 3x TDs to screw up a few turret sniping BSs or fight closer with 4x TDs...it's a falcon like approach You nano the lows and fit some relays for the cap to last, and hope your drones will chase off stupid ceptors...and who knows...one might even try to web you, so that you can neut him Join the Biggest Greek Corp!** www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Lord WarATron 1. Pilgrim not a gang ship [...] the reality of how pvp works. Your reality. And it is not very impressive given that you already fail in your first sentence. Do you really have to use each and every bonus every time? Silly people. lol? You realize how much it takes out of me to agree with a bob guy :p THE PILGRIM CANNOT PERFORM IN A GANG If you think it does, its because you have ABSOLUTELY no grasp on how the **** pvp is done. And after stating that sentence, I'm not going to continue, because it would be a waste of my time. Imagine the pain I'm going through, having to agree with both Bobbits AND Lyria! Hey, the Pilgrim can perform in gang...you just neglect the NOS/Neut bonus, warp in at 100km from the gate, and fit MWD + SB + 3x TDs to screw up a few turret sniping BSs or fight closer with 4x TDs...it's a falcon like approach You nano the lows and fit some relays for the cap to last, and hope your drones will chase off stupid ceptors...and who knows...one might even try to web you, so that you can neut him I feel like thats so blasphemous that I wouldn't do that tho lol And yeah I agree with Lyria as well :p --
Daanika	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:45:00 - [85] There're a lot of different ships in Eve, some better or worse from a 'play to win' perspective. But from a purely 'play for fun' angle, the pilgrim has a hidden bonus that (imo) no other recon has: it's frickin' cool Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull...
Endless Subversion Club Bear	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:48:00 - [86] Originally by: Daanika Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull... Ah. You must have meant "feel the rush of shortly having one less worthless pilgrim". Engaging anything PvP fit and larger than a cruiser is going to result in a dead pilgrim. Not to mention the loads of other problems with having a <13km engagement range with 0 propulsion mods... I've flown the pilgrim for ages and it's total rubbish for anything besides hauling and solo mission ganking. Self Destruct & LogOffs
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:17:00 - [87] Originally by: Endless Subversion Originally by: Daanika Unfit the MWD, repackage the AB... fit 2 webs and feel the rush of ruining someone's underwear by uncloaking 7k off their hull... Ah. You must have meant "feel the rush of shortly having one less worthless pilgrim". Engaging anything PvP fit and larger than a cruiser is going to result in a dead pilgrim. Not to mention the loads of other problems with having a <13km engagement range with 0 propulsion mods... I've flown the pilgrim for ages and it's total rubbish for anything besides hauling and solo mission ganking. But thats not what EFT said! God I hate that program... lol --
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 - [88] If your definetion of a gang ship is "more number = better than less" then that is a incorrect definition since all ships including haulers, noobships etc fall within that definition, since real life gangs are more than EFT. A Pilgrim just does not have the desgin for gang usage. Yes, you can Tach II a pilgrim and snipe at 160km. yes you can put on TD's and call it a EW boat. Is a 72km optimal max skill TD boat meant to scare people in the days where a Falcon pilot jam's people at 200-249km? If you are in a gang and can fly the pilgrim, you already have the skills to fly far superior ships more effective and be able to contrbiute to a gang better. Thats pretty much why I do not use pilgrim in gang and prefer to use falcon for "gang" usage. With that said I fly all types of ships for multiple races so I am giving a balanced viewpoint having flown both ships extensivly. -- Billion Isk Mission
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:33:00 - [89] I use my pilgrim to go to mecca ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:21:00 - [90] Originally by: Erotic Irony I use my pilgrim to go to mecca But I don't want to go to mecca; I want to be as good as the other recons.

Barbens Sky Net Industries Pure.	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:26:00 - [91] The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:58:00 - [92] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Because recons don't tank well? Why do you need 40km webs on rapier, you can sneak up on people. Why do you need 150km range on falcon, you can sneak up on people. lol?
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:03:00 - [93] Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. ________________________________________
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:04:00 - [94] Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? --
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:05:00 - [95] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS That logic is simply wrong. Not opinionated, just wrong. Look at the entire class of Recon ships then try and make that argument... I really wish the people on the forums actually logged in every once in a while... --
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:34:00 - [96] Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Have you every used a pilgrim? Seriously! -- Billion Isk Mission
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:46:00 - [97] The problem is two fold, it gets a damage bonust the other lack (in place of range) and we're still living in a nano era i.e. ccp don't want cloaking nano curse going around - yes, i have seen some poor sods with pollys on their pilgrims. Tbh i'd be happy with an additional role bonus to extend nuets to 20k which would keep ppl happy however balanced against the other ship (e.g. falcon = rook ewar) it would need to be next to the curse. You could apply additional role bonuses (or break current ones down) ont he others to keep it lvl, and perhaps give me motive to use an arazu again. Anyway there have been numerous thread on this ship but it always comes down to this: Td are long range, neuts short (conflicting intrest?) for either to funcion well the other cannot or you must fit the ship in some way contrary to design to use it e.g bs size plate, guns, nano etc. On the plus side the falcon is ott, arazu under powered (relativly speaking) and plenty folk have discussed changes to webs so really it looks like the whole class is in need of review. Well, their individual changes always appear to back-fire don't they *The EVE servers and their patches*
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Barbens The main reason behind the last of a range bonus, is the fact that i can warp cloaked. Think about it, why do you need 40k range, when you can sneak up on them? BaRbEnS Because recons don't tank well? Why do you need 40km webs on rapier, you can sneak up on people. Why do you need 150km range on falcon, you can sneak up on people. lol? Rarely do you see a post so squarely countered. Kudos.
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:55:00 - [99] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.06.11 19:00:00 - [100] Pilgrim = not okay Needs: Fix (range)

Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:14:00 - [101] Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue Yeah, it's so simple and plain. Unbelievable.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:08:00 - [102] Edited by: Marcus Druallis on 11/06/2008 22:14:29 Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Marcus Druallis Originally by: Kerdrak Edited by: Kerdrak on 11/06/2008 17:03:55 Pilgrim is ok, if you don't like to fly it because can't be nanoed don't fly it (you still have the Curse), it's an excellent close combat hac with cloak. lol? Excellent as compared to what? An Osprey? You obviously have no clue lol soooo obvious. Since the Pilgrim has fewer acceptable targets than probably a taranis... --
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:49:00 - [103] Edited by: Grytok on 11/06/2008 22:50:27 I'd fly an Arazu every day over a Pilgrim. Why? Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. With an Arazu I can sit invincible at 20-30km dealing the same 200+ DPS without the target even beeing able to get a lock on me. Sure, I can't disable the tank of that Raven, but there's the NPCs helping with some more damage, and the Raven unable to kill those NPCs. So now tell me exactly where's your solo-gank-ability better in the Pilgrim? All you people trying to defend the Pilgrim are lost in 2006, way before NOS got nerfed. You're simply not able anymore to fuel your Dual-Reps, while draining the target dry. And without the ability to scoop/redeploy drones your damage get's killed pretty fast by a competent pilot. A competent pilot can do what ever he want's in his Raven... he won't do any harm to my Arazu, while dying slowly. Only BackUp can save his arse, but then you'll have to run away and cloak, while the Pilgrim has troubles to disengage. Pilgrim is not fine! Don't you dare telling people it is ffs. EDIT: Don't ask, yes I can fly the Pilgrim and have all related skills at 4/5. .
Bodhisattvas Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:25:00 - [104] Just remove the bollox nos nerf so the pilgrim gets the full nos amount instead of the you get no cap if your prey has more cap than you...in short just put it back the way it was.
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:21:00 - [105] I have flown Rapier and Falcon for a long time and recently trained up an alt to fly a Pilgrim. I wasn't to happy when I started fitting the damned thing. It is really hard to find a proper fit, at least if you want to be able to use it solo. I find it's tank too weak and it's dps to low to be able to do anything good solo. LordWarATron is 100% right imho. I just can't find any role for it that I couldn't use another ship with better result. The biggest problem is that you need to be in web range to get your nos/neut working and that means you'll either win or die. Only thing I see it good for is as a scout and tackler before your gang shows up to kill the target. Just hope you don't die before they show up. In short. I was very disappointed when I tried it out and I'll stick to Falcons and Rapiers for now until I have skilled up for an Arazu.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:29:00 - [106] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:21:00 - [107] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Are you serious? Solo HACs can kill BS. I've done it myself often enough to know that it is possible.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:45:00 - [108] Originally by: Mangold Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 07:29:49 Originally by: Grytok Bevause I'm more able to kill ratting Ravens in an Arazu then in a Pilgrim tbqfh. Pilgrim needs to get close, making itself vulnerable to Heavy Neutralizers and the Pilgrim's damage can be destroyed one Volley with a Large Smartbomb. Cloaking recons solo-ing competently fit BS just shouldn't happen. Otherwise, the HACs are in dire need of loving given they cannot do the same (they're toast vs any competent BS pilot!). In fact, most solo HACs have dire issues with Tier 2 Battlecruisers, and you're complaining about being unable to take battleships with a cloaking recon? Even though HACs can't do it? Are you serious? Solo HACs can kill BS. I've done it myself often enough to know that it is possible. Competently piloted ones? Are you joking? Most HACs melt to a Hurricane. Asking for solo cloaking recons to be able to take on BS when your average HAC has issues taking out a BC is laughable. I mean, yeah, I've killed a Drake in a Wolf, but that doesn't say anything about the relative performance of the ships. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:54:00 - [109] Watch that ratting mega stop me killing him when i put a single td on him *The EVE servers and their patches*
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:58:00 - [110] Originally by: achoura Watch that ratting mega stop me killing him when i put a single td on him Heavy Neutralisers don't need tracking. My Tempest has two Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:00:00 - [111] Originally by: Cpt Branko Competently piloted ones? Are you joking? Most HACs melt to a Hurricane. Asking for solo cloaking recons to be able to take on BS when your average HAC has issues taking out a BC is laughable. I mean, yeah, I've killed a Drake in a Wolf, but that doesn't say anything about the relative performance of the ships. I guess every BS I've killed has been piloted by a incompetent pilot then . Let me put it different: Most BCs and BS melt to a competent HAC pilot. If you manage to kill a HAC in your hurricane he must have been incompetent. Judging by your killboard you haven't much experience flying a HAC, at least not on this char. Anyway, I actually think that a recon should be able to kill a ratting BS. You need the DPS from belt rats to help kill it and that is possible with a arazu or rapier. It is much much harder to do that in a pilgrim and that's why I'll stay away from it for now. With and Arazu, Rapier or Falcon you can deagress and get safe if things go wrong. You can't do that with your Pilgrim as you'll be within web range and have a hard time getting away.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 09:09:00 - [112] Originally by: Mangold Most BCs and BS melt to a competent HAC pilot. Ok. Cookie cutter tempest. Double heavy neuts. Please tell me what you'll do about that solo in any HAC. And that's talking about nano-HACs; non-nano HACs just melt (Diemost,Beagle,etc). Against nano ones, hey, you need a heavy neut. I'd have thought it'd be the cookie-cutter BS fitting by now when soloing. Originally by: Mangold If you manage to kill a HAC in your hurricane he must have been incompetent. Judging by your killboard you haven't much experience flying a HAC, at least not on this char. I don't see the point of HACs* - I prefer killing them in a Hurricane. So many people think that because their Diemost/Blaster Eagle costs three times my ship, that they have a chance of winning. *well, yes, nano-ing obviously, but it's rather useless in low-sec if you want to do any gate/sentry work, and non-nano HACs fail compared to a Tier 2 BC. I've never ever lost to a solo nano HAC though, given there are easy ways to deal with each and every one of them, even if they TD you which is their best bet thanks to the falloff-reduction buff. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:02:00 - [113] HACs or recons doesn't work that good for solo gate camping in low sec. We can agree on that. I see that you have extensive experience from that type of pvp. How about 0.0 roaming? Sure, a tempest with two heavy neuts is a problem for a HAC. That setup has other disadvantages instead. I guess your definition of a competent BS pilot is someone that fits that. I still think Pilgrim suck if you compare it to other recons and as far as I can remember that is what this thread was all about.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:04:00 - [114] O HAI LOOK MA IM POASTING IN ANOTHER PILGRIM THREAD.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:22:00 - [115] I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few we are recruiting!
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:44:00 - [116] Originally by: Inertial I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few having empty slots and N-type stuff is not really good. If you must use a afterburner pilgrim, then try this (assuming you got recon lvl4) H: 2 x Med Neut II, 1 x Med Nos II, Cov Ops Cloak M: 10mn AB II, 1 x t2 Scram, 1 x T2 Web, 2 x Best Named Tracking Disrupters L: Med Rep II, 1600 Rolled Tungstan, Reactor Control System II, Energized Adaptive II, Adaptive nano Plate II R: 2 x Egress Port Maximiser Now I am going to assume you somehow manage to get to your target sysytem. You will have a big enough buffer to kill a ratting ship and since you have a Ab, you need to be around 150km+ from nearist asteroid in your belt. When victim comes in, warp to the asteriod nearist to him and uncloak and hope for the best. Its a long long boring waiting game so make lots of belt spots as you look for prey. It is also very easy for the mark to set a trap so keep that in mind. Egress Rigs are key here, so you can perma run a neut on the target forever. -- Billion Isk Mission
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 11:57:00 - [117] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 11:58:26 Originally by: Mangold HACs or recons doesn't work that good for solo gate camping in low sec. Solo gatecamping in anything non-disposable is bad anyway, 340 DPS extra from sentries means a T1 cruiser eventually breaks you. Incidentally, a tanked Sacriledge can work OK (even though there's little reason to use a Sacriledge for it), and a sentry-tanked sensor boosted Huggin (with a sensor-boosted Broadsword mate) are a awesome tackler due for any gatecamp but I'm detracting from the thread. I think you realize the issues non-nano HACs face anyway. Originally by: Mangold Sure, a tempest with two heavy neuts is a problem for a HAC. That setup has other disadvantages instead. I guess your definition of a competent BS pilot is someone that fits that. Basically, any solo BS (unless station hugging) is suicidal to fly without at least one heavy neutralizer. Else, a Crow will solo you eventually, or keep you tackled indefinitely while his mates cover the N jumps from wherever they are. Non-neut BS are fine for gangs (and some ships aren't going to be fitting neuts, like the Maelstorm/Hyperion/etc typically), but that just means you shouldn't be soloing in them really, particularly not sitting solo in a belt where one interceptor can keep you perma-tackled. Originally by: Mangold I still think Pilgrim suck if you compare it to other recons and as far as I can remember that is what this thread was all about. Well, it does in a number of ways, but it's primarily because it's got huge fitting issues and so on; not because of lack of range. There's nothing wrong with killing people at short range. Adding range to it would require a serious gimp in its damage-dealing capabilities, really, with keeping the fittings as gimped as they are. tl;dr: nano-Curse is fearsome, but it doesn't cloak, which IS a big deal. A cloaking nano-Curse would simply be overpowered, it has to make significant sacrifices to compensate for the covops cloak. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Anubis Hatak OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL White Core	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:41:00 - [118] Edited by: Anubis Hatak on 12/06/2008 12:41:51 A significant sacrifice that as far as I know the other race's recons don't suffer from. A range boost to 20km as mentioned before would probably satisfy most people...
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 11:58:26 Well, it does in a number of ways, but it's primarily because it's got huge fitting issues and so on; not because of lack of range. There's nothing wrong with killing people at short range. Adding range to it would require a serious gimp in its damage-dealing capabilities, really, with keeping the fittings as gimped as they are. tl;dr: nano-Curse is fearsome, but it doesn't cloak, which IS a big deal. A cloaking nano-Curse would simply be overpowered, it has to make significant sacrifices to compensate for the covops cloak. Yes, it would require a change in its bonuses. When adding the range bonus to neuts and nos, remove the drone damage and hitpoint bonus. Now, how the hell would this ship be overpowered when its only damage comes from 5, unbonused medium drones? If anything, it is the LEAST overpowered out of the entire recon family.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:48:00 - [120] Originally by: Inertial I like the Pilgrim, so I don't care really how badly it may be compared to the curse, I won't fly it because its the best thing out there, I will fly it because it is the ship I like the most atm. I still haven't finished training for it, but when I do, I am planning on fitting it like this: [Pilgrim, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Adaptive Nano Membrane I 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Tapered Capacitor Infusion I, Cap Booster 800 [empty med slot] Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Nanobot Accelerator I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Hammerhead II x5 Tanks nicely enough and everything (350 dps + I think, I'll invest in implants and hardwireings). It is meant for low-sec tough. I got no idea if it will work, or how it will work, so I guess I will figure out after loosing a few You like it because you haven't tried flying it yet. Wait and see.

Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:05:00 - [121] Yeah, try actually flying the Pilgrim, then comment. It needs a fix.
pushdogg Crimson Flag	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:31:00 - [122] 5 pages is a bit much to read on just one ship, especially when its just a huge debate on it, but has anyone thought of possibly giving this ship some sort of partial immunity to the NOS nerf, im not personally a pilgrim(or curse) pilot, but ive been throwing the idea around trying to pilot one. furthermore, if i manage to catch a pilgrim on scan, i make sure im far far away from said pilgrim.
Trancestor Seraphin Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:20:00 - [123] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/06/2008 19:41:58 Originally by: Marcus Druallis Why does the pilgrim get hosed and does not get the range bonus of it's specialized EW like every other Force Recon. The Devs should remove the damage bonus (that other Force Recons do NOT recieve) and replace it with a range bonus like the Curse. Why would this not work? CCP have stated that they are looking into changing the bonus of the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim will no longer have a joke of a bonus as it has currently, and will insted, have a bonus to Cargo Capacity to improve its current role of cov ops hauler. The Skill requirements will also be changed from Amarr Cruiser 5 to Amarr Industral lvl5 to better match this role. Pilgrim is a excellent ship since it can go 1kms+ with a full rack of EW, NOS, Cargo Expanders and Cargo rigs and still have bonused drones. This means that you can NOS/EW/Drone anything attackign this hauler and it really is overpowered in the hauler league. I also hope CCP slightly reduce the mass of the pilgrim, to make it easier for its partner, the Jumpdrive Hauler Redeemer, to portal it easier. With that said, the Cargo Expander Redeemer has exactly enough Cargo to portal the Pilgrim and jump out. muhhahaha pie in my pants n1 lord ^^ MORS CERTA HORA INCERTA


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