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[Issue] Remove Jade from Chair

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Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:18:00 - [451] Originally by: Mister Spanky I've never been a member of a committee that allowed the Chair a vote in any other circumstance other than a dead heat. I have. It went fairly well, but there were only 12 of us. Quote: Oh I see. You don't want to resolve the issue amicably. You just want to get rid of Jade no matter what. Okay, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take, I guess. I was just trying to be diplomatic. No, if Jade can be reasonable there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he cannot be reasonable. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected member of the council their vote should only count in the event of a tie. We all know what happens when you tell an elected member of the council that their votes don't count. Jade did it, and we have to deal with the fallout.
d'hofren Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:49:00 - [452] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: fuze I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind. Um, what? Jade was banned from the forums for a significant amount of time(for doing pretty much exactly what he is doing here). A few months before taking sign ups for the CSM CCP issued a blanket amnesty for all forum accounts that were not removed due to serious infractions(like posting goatse on the forums) Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing. Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban. You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC. Wasn't it three warnings and your out?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:01:00 - [453] Originally by: d'hofren Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing. Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban. You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC. Wasn't it three warnings and your out? I've received one warning my entire time on the forums and I've been more prolific in terms of posts and words than most people(E.G. I have 40% more posts than Jade with a higher average character count). You had to be pretty consistently abusive to receive enough warnings to get banned because of it. Granted it could be "light" abuse. But its very unlikely for it to occur without that pattern of behavior. Given Jades posting here and elsewhere I am not surprised in the least that he was given an involuntary permanent vacation. Especially since, in this environment, where we ought to be talking about stuff that is fairly in game politic neutral(in a game where we shoot each other and generally harbor ill will), and so you would expect the debate to be more tame than when you are talking about things like who won what engagement and who was winning a war, he has done little but insult others and insinuate about some conspiracy against him.
Torshin InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:39:00 - [454] IIRC jade got banned for sig size violations not walls of texts
d'hofren Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:46:00 - [455] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: d'hofren Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing. Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban. You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC. Wasn't it three warnings and your out? I've received one warning my entire time on the forums and I've been more prolific in terms of posts and words than most people(E.G. I have 40% more posts than Jade with a higher average character count). You had to be pretty consistently abusive to receive enough warnings to get banned because of it. Granted it could be "light" abuse. But its very unlikely for it to occur without that pattern of behavior. Given Jades posting here and elsewhere I am not surprised in the least that he was given an involuntary permanent vacation. Especially since, in this environment, where we ought to be talking about stuff that is fairly in game politic neutral(in a game where we shoot each other and generally harbor ill will), and so you would expect the debate to be more tame than when you are talking about things like who won what engagement and who was winning a war, he has done little but insult others and insinuate about some conspiracy against him. I am not getting drawn on this thread or discussion. I dislike the vitriol and hate these kind of things bring, it doesn't add to my enjoyment of the game. I just felt I ought to explain how things were a lot different then. A lot of people got banned for very little and it was a major bone of contention for most forum regulars, to the point that the mechanism was eventually changed.
Theramin Dogon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:18:00 - [456] Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 14/06/2008 20:18:02 Originally by: d'hofren Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing. If there's anyone who has anything to gain from explaining how something works, it's Jade. Unfortunately, all he seems to want to do is run around the issue dismissively and throw insults at everyone. Not to say you're a Jade alt, but just that he could take the time to explain things without so much "vitriol and hate", as you put it.
JafoPBCFR	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:35:00 - [457] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Aprudena Gist Says the idiot who started all the ******** power play crap just get out. You sound a little bit stressed. Maybe have a cup of tea and play some internet spaceships rather than student politics? Seriously its not the end of the world that you don't get your way on this. Pace yourself, maybe I'll get indicted by the international war crimes tribunal for internet posting or perhaps you could open a class action suit and try to have me deported to texas or something? i dont think Texas would want ya. I know I Sure dont! and you said you hate Darius. Wow you hate another person over a video game? Proof your in need of a real life. Sure theres Characters i dont like in this game. But i dont hate anyone in this game. prob because i know. Behind the keyboard there not the same person they are in game. Much Like having the Name Jade and really having the name Andrew. Step Down Now make it rie. Show you can realize your not for the good of the fgame and for only you personal powertrip as a roleplayer. Give the chair to one whos willing to be impartial and is not going to see a goon at every turn!
itsan egro Nobody likes me	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:29:00 - [458] jade, there's always room for you in my corp
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:47:00 - [459] Edited by: Qaedienne on 15/06/2008 06:48:27 Quote: No, if Jade can bend over for Goons there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he disagrees with a Goon. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected Goon to follow the rules that apply to every other CSM. We all know what happens when you tell a Goon that they can't have their way. Jade did it, and we have to deal with hundreds of crying Goons, every day. Fyp. Seriously, grow up. The Goons have 2 members on the council and still *** every day. It's ***** pathetic, and so are you. Also, all the critics need to stop using democracy as their reason. You clearly don't understand it, or you wouldn't attempt to overthrow the top democratically elected official while simultaneously claiming you're doing it for "democracy". Jade was elected chair, and is the top vote-getter in the CSM elections. In light of that, she wins every argument that uses democracy as the measurement. Period. And, by definition, every attempt to remove her as chair or limit her ability to act either as a CSM or chair is undemocratic. From reading the complaints against Jade, what most of them seem to be getting at is that she is authoritarian (or against anarchism). That is not incompatible with democracy, as in most democratic systems the elected officials have all/most of the authority. Edit - Learn your governments, noobs!
LASER WATCHER GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:58:00 - [460] Originally by: Qaedienne Edited by: Qaedienne on 15/06/2008 06:48:27 Quote: No, if Jade can bend over for Goons there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he disagrees with a Goon. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected Goon to follow the rules that apply to every other CSM. We all know what happens when you tell a Goon that they can't have their way. Jade did it, and we have to deal with hundreds of crying Goons, every day. Fyp. Seriously, grow up. The Goons have 2 members on the council and still *** every day. It's ***** pathetic, and so are you. Also, all the critics need to stop using democracy as their reason. You clearly don't understand it, or you wouldn't attempt to overthrow the top democratically elected official while simultaneously claiming you're doing it for "democracy". Jade was elected chair, and is the top vote-getter in the CSM elections. In light of that, she wins every argument that uses democracy as the measurement. Period. And, by definition, every attempt to remove her as chair or limit her ability to act either as a CSM or chair is undemocratic. From reading the complaints against Jade, what most of them seem to be getting at is that she is authoritarian (or against anarchism). That is not incompatible with democracy, as in most democratic systems the elected officials have all/most of the authority. Edit - Learn your governments, noobs! my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad _____

Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:09:00 - [461] Originally by: LASER WATCHER my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad Then your government is a republic.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:19:00 - [462] Originally by: Qaedienne Originally by: LASER WATCHER my government has the ability to impeach presidents that were democratically elected because they are bad Then your government is a republic. Assuming that Mr. All Caps is an American then you're right, but your statement does not logically follow from what he said. For example, in a Westminster system, if the MPs lose confidence in one person as Prime Minister and decide that they'd prefer another person to have the title, then that second one becomes PM. The person at the top gets kicked out, but it's hardly undemocratic - if anything, it's a better expression of democracy, since the voters changing their minds results in a change in the outcome. Similarly, see any type of recall vote. Using words like "undemocratic" is excessive - the worst that can be said is that people are looking to do something not allowed by what passes for the constitution. That statement at least has the virtue of accuracy. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Evita Achura Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:31:00 - [463] Originally by: Jade Constantine Negative. Basically its part of our job to ignore the people who vote. 200 people who don't like me are worthless. Sorry to disappoint you but threads exposing my complete and utterly contemptible corruption simply mean nothing when you compare it to aggression timers not going away... Thats why no post like this will be advocated in good faith by a CSM delegate. A) it brings nothing to the game, and B) it would be embarrassing the CSM delegate to bring such a motion and have it voted down on the public record wasting time better alloted for decent issues. Fixed.
Trader Choco	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:54:00 - [464]
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 08:35:00 - [465] Quote: Assuming that Mr. All Caps is an American then you're right, but your statement does not logically follow from what he said. For example, in a Westminster system, if the MPs lose confidence in one person as Prime Minister and decide that they'd prefer another person to have the title, then that second one becomes PM. The person at the top gets kicked out, but it's hardly undemocratic - if anything, it's a better expression of democracy, since the voters changing their minds results in a change in the outcome. Similarly, see any type of recall vote. In a Westminster system there is no direct popular vote regarding any position other than MP, so your point is muddled at best. The example of a Presidency was better to use, as that position is voted on directly by the populace but can be ousted by something other than another popular vote. Obviously, in that case the rule of law is greater than the popular vote. In your example it's rule of law on both sides and no direct elections have occured. Recall votes can be democratic, but I should point out that they are unnecessary in a true democracy. In a true democracy there would simply be another election whenever the voters wanted. Quote: Using words like "undemocratic" is excessive - the worst that can be said is that people are looking to do something not allowed by what passes for the constitution. That statement at least has the virtue of accuracy. No, it's not excessive. Jade was elected to the chair by popular vote. By definition, anything other than another popular vote that removes her is undemocratic. Your argument that the Westminster system allows for more democracy because it allows voters to change their minds only carries weight if the replacement mechanic/system is at least as democratic as the method used to place the person in office to begin with. The two are the same in the Westminster system, it is undemocratic if the council removes a chair voted in by popular vote. And let's not stray too far from the point here: Jade was elected to the chair by popular vote. The Goons claim to want to remove her for "democratic" reasons. I am pointing out that there is only one truly democratic way to remove or replace a directly elected position.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:23:00 - [466] Originally by: Qaedienne ... lets not make any mistakes here. This started when Jade Constantine threw out Hardin from a meeting against the language in the CSM founding document. He exerted powers that he did not have in order to gain an advantage over an in game enemy. This escalated when Hardin brought a general motion to the council to formalize when alternates were to stand in for elected representatives. Jade argued hard against this vote, and why wouldn't he, he had just, the previous meeting, excluded another representative with no grounds or authority. When Jade lost that vote he editorialized it in a manner to make everyone else look bad. A member of the council named Inanna Zunni objected to this. Later, in that same meeting, Jade muted Inanna for making points of order without explanation which many of the council members objected to and then during another vote badgered council members who had already voted into changing their vote before it ended. Are Goonswarm just "defending their own" in some partisan political play? Unlikely, Hardin is no friend to goonswarm, we are neutral. We have worked together in the past but typically fight each other. We have a mutual understanding that each will use each other for their own means until such a time as it becomes strategically expedient to do the opposite. We can work together on the council because we also have a mutual understanding that the council is not a place for those machinations. There is nothing to gain for GS or to take away from our enemies when the game is made more fun everyone benefits. Whether or not that is for the 10,000 people playing factional warfare, the 20,000 people in 0.0 or the 40 people who want to destroy stations. There is only the goal to make the game that we all play better. Inanna Zunni is a member of Electus Matari, an enemy of CVA for their entire time within the game. Allies to Ursha Kahn during the war where CVA took their space and sent them back to Empire and in general not good friends. In terms of relevancy to us, Jade Constantine is farther off the radar that groups like Repo who are so far off the radar that half of the goons probably don't even know who they are despite war decs going on for the past year or so. Most what we have had to talk about internally is explaining who Jade was to the majority of Goons. We have no reason to support either of these people, nor to move against Jade. It gains us nothing. It is only if the council is to be subverted from its goal of making the game better that we would have any reason to be up in arms. Because we have a stake in having fun.
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:11:00 - [467] Originally by: d'hofren Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban. Keep digging. Jade went emo on COAD a few times and it seems people forgot about that. Mr Ego doesn't like to be contradicted. It was self destructive back then and it is now.
Mimedar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:11:00 - [468] I couldn't keep up with it after page 7, but Jade averaged over 100 words per post, and has about 20 posts during that time frame. It's the internet equivalent of Terry Pratchett's 5 exclamation points.
Freya Runestone	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:20:00 - [469] agree
Mika Katon The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:41:00 - [470] I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting. I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position.

SocialPolice	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:52:00 - [471] Originally by: Mika Katon I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting. I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position. They fail YOUR player base. If you dont like it, you and the rest of the goons are free to get the hell out, beg permission to return to second life and rain some ***** again. EVE would be better without you.
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:08:00 - [472] Originally by: SocialPolice EVE would be better without you. Originally by: SocialPolice Personally I think the whole CSM should be dissolved and scrapped. Why bother? Just go back to WoW.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:45:00 - [473] Quote: lets not make any mistakes here. The first letter of a sentence is capitalized. You fail. Quote: This started when Jade Constantine threw out Hardin from a meeting against the language in the CSM founding document. He exerted powers that he did not have in order to gain an advantage over an in game enemy. You mean this?: [ 2008.05.31 20:51:54 ]Hardin >okay happy to let tusko go on those [ 2008.05.31 20:52:05 ]Hardin >but donÆt agree with the administrative principle [ 2008.05.31 20:52:24 ]Jade Constantine > kk we'll get a proper discussion and vote and decide on it with open discussion Hardin [ 2008.05.31 20:52:32 ]Jade Constantine > for next time okay? [ 2008.05.31 20:52:36 ]Hardin >sure The menacing way Jade says "for next time okay?" is chilling. Just chilling. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Quote: This escalated when Hardin brought a general motion to the council to formalize when alternates were to stand in for elected representatives. Jade argued hard against this vote, and why wouldn't he, he had just, the previous meeting, excluded another representative with no grounds or authority. When Jade lost that vote he editorialized it in a manner to make everyone else look bad. A member of the council named Inanna Zunni objected to this. You don't have to assign your own motives to Jade's discussion and vote of this topic, she gave them herself in the chat logs and it wasn't because it would make her decision in the previous meeting look bad. She had also restated the proposal earlier in the conversation in the exact way you claim is editorialized, and no one objected: [ 2008.06.08 18:14:52 ]Jade Constantine > okay does anyone want to say something against hardin's proposal - which is (in effect) that any alternative who takes a seat at a meeting can be displaced at any point in that meeting by a csm candidate returning to take over the voting on the remainder [ 2008.06.08 18:14:57 ]Serenity Steele > It seems unreasonable to me, in the current term serving criteria for alternates, to only partially participate in a meeting after making the time free to attend. [ 2008.06.08 18:15:07 ]Inanna Zuni > so far as someone leaving during the meeting, depends if they have "gone" or their comms line went down. Should we penalize for an ISP failure> [ 2008.06.08 18:15:38 ]LaVista Vista >If the person comes back, he just takes over [ 2008.06.08 18:15:49 ]Inanna Zuni > ... at the end of the current item [ 2008.06.08 18:16:00 ]Hardin > yep [ 2008.06.08 18:16:06 ]Serenity Steele > Inanna, IMO yes, we should penalize for an ISP failure. Those are the breaks - get a better ISP or back-up if it's that critical. [ 2008.06.08 18:16:07 ]Dierdra Vaal > I agree with serenity, except I believe the solution is to change the rules so an alt is not counted as having served a term... [ 2008.06.08 18:16:14 ]LaVista Vista >But we can't be halted because someone have a failure. The person looses out on a vote or two, no big deal. Really, you are trying too hard. Quote: Later, in that same meeting, Jade muted Inanna for making points of order without explanation which many of the council members objected to and then during another vote badgered council members who had already voted into changing their vote before it ended. Jade muted Inanna for disrupting a vote. This was something that was voted on in the first meeting, and it is right for her to do this. You're going to have to point out where she did the "badgering". Your spin is so unspecific I can't tell what you mean. Quote: Are Goonswarm just "defending their own" in some partisan political play? Are strawmen really that dangerous to Goonswarm?
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:01:00 - [474] Quote: Unlikely, Hardin is no friend to goonswarm, we are neutral. We have worked together in the past but typically fight each other. We have a mutual understanding that each will use each other for their own means until such a time as it becomes strategically expedient to do the opposite. I'm not aware of anyone (other than yourself) claiming that there is a conspiracy going on in the council. Looks like another strawman argument. Quote: We can work together on the council... Your consistent and focused attacks on council members proves that you can't work together in the council. Quote: It is only if the council is to be subverted from its goal of making the game better that we would have any reason to be up in arms. Because we have a stake in having fun. According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
SocialPolice	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:03:00 - [475] Originally by: fuze Originally by: SocialPolice EVE would be better without you. Originally by: SocialPolice Personally I think the whole CSM should be dissolved and scrapped. Why bother? Just go back to WoW. Never played WoW. I only play EVE.
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:09:00 - [476] Originally by: Qaedienne According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight. I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt. Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
JafoPBCFR	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:13:00 - [477] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Qaedienne According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight. I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt. yeah i wanna see it to. because if he did. Id like him off the CSM aswell. but i have only seen sofar his want to keep himself open to public scrutiny. And wants nothing behind closed doors.
JafoPBCFR	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:23:00 - [478] Originally by: SocialPolice Originally by: Mika Katon I support this based on the transcript of the meeting, and Jade's unprofessional behavior in this thread and the meeting. I don't care if the person holding the chair roleplays a drop bear, they should be able to separate the position from their roleplay and leave tourists alone for the duration of the meeting. If not, they're failing the playerbase and don't deserve the position. They fail YOUR player base. If you dont like it, you and the rest of the goons are free to get the hell out, beg permission to return to second life and rain some ***** again. Hmm seems Jade has a new Alt. sees goons everywhere still i see. Yes yes i know im a goon too. goods are everywhere. Wait is that a bagelbite? or is a good disguised as a bagelbite? Let the GOON Hysteria begin!!!! Oh BTW ya really are pitiful. EVE would be better without you.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:49:00 - [479] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Qaedienne According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight. I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt. Hmm, can't find the post so I'll retract it for now.
JafoPBCFR	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:25:00 - [480] Originally by: Qaedienne Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Qaedienne According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight. I will welcome you to provide the quote of me saying this alt. Hmm, can't find the post so I'll retract it for now. I dont think youll find one. you may find one of others saying he does but ive followed the CSM posts and have never seen Darius say he was only out for goonswarm interests. If he did id call for his removal and i think he knows full well it would go over like a lead balloon.



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