| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs
GoonSwarm
   |
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:40:00 -
[151]
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
|
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:44:00 -
[152]
 Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
|
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:52:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game |
duckmonster
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:53:00 -
[154]
I think decisions should be made on the basis of some sort of bloodthirsty physical combat.
Seriouspost:
Hadin for CSM chair. The guys got experience. |
Sigmorhair
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:55:00 -
[155]
Jade is worthless. It was already obvious this council would be of limited worth but the presidents being set now just make that worse. If Goonswarm wins the next council chair are we allowed to pull the same ****? Mute everyone and win all votes by a yes or no by ourselves?
Absurd.
|
Hsin
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:56:00 -
[156]
Yes Jade is worthless and should be removed.
|
Shadako
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:58:00 -
[157]
This is obviously an untenable situation. Jade should be forced to resign.
|
Dr Felonius
Civilian Purposes Limited
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:58:00 -
[158]
Rather see the position of Chair removed, but if there's going to be an executive, it should be someone who knows the difference between leading and bullying.
|
Lynen
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:04:00 -
[159]
Generally the chair shouldn't be a power crazy maniac
|
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:05:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game
Will tech two BS BPCs be ok, I'm kinda broke atm
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
|
|
|
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:11:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
The CSMs are representative of the players.
*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late.
As is standard meeting procedure. Apologies are minuted, unapologised absentees usually are not.
Quote:
...
*Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es.
Gender balance questions are fine, and pretty common in the modern world
Quote:
*Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote.
*Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote.
Both true and entirely valid
Quote:
*Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson.
*Accused Jade of not being neutral again.
*Accused Jade of editorializing again.
And was correct all three times
Quote:
*Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time".
*Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're).
who cares
Quote:
*Abstained from a vote.
*Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition).
How is this abusive? Should dissedents be rounded up and shot? Its valid meeting procedure. CCP has explicitely noted that the meeting uses Simple rather than Absolute majority. That means an abstain vote , by formal definition means "I do not hold an opinion formally, but I do not wish my silence to be counted as a no or a yes.". This is basic stuff here.
Quote:
*Accused Serenity of abuse.
*Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care.
*Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means.
As was her right
Quote:
*Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question.
Its a valid opinion, even if it may or may not be wrong.
Quote:
*Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election.
It certainly appears true of the chair.
Quote:
...........
*Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds.
Quote:
Whilst wrong (Simple majority means more ayes than nae, and abstain means "not nae not aye) its her right to that opinion.
Quote:
*Objects to having no vote recorded.
The objection is correct if Ianna voted abstain. Abstains are always recorded by name
Quote:
*Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible".
*Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log.
*Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead.
As is her right!
Quote:
*Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship.
As is her right.
Quote:
*Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes.
As is her right.
Quote:
*While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice.
What do you even MEAN by "simple majority vs 5 aye". The rules set out by CCP are as follows;- "A simple majority vote is required for passage". That means by definition, that the only rules are 1) More ayes than naes are required. 2) An abstain must not count as a nae or an aye (otherwise its absolute majority rather than simple majority)
Continued.... |
Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:13:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Martin VanBuren
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
Supporting this attempt to remove a clearly disturbed individual from power.
PS. Qaedienne, post with your main.
hey can you sponsor me into GF
I can, but there's a 100m isk security deposit.
Hit me up in game
Will tech two BS BPCs be ok, I'm kinda broke atm
are they better than me -2 |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:22:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren
are they better than me -2
not sure, I'm sitting on a few dozen redeemer and paladin prints, waiting for redeemers to be buffed--a handful had the me decryptor used but the rest were straight og |
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:27:00 -
[164]
Quote:
*Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes.
As is her right
Quote:
*On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining).
As is her right
Quote:
*Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote.
Jade was attributing her abstain as a No vote , despite being prohibited in the constitution. Thats vote rigging.\
Quote:
...
*When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".
And heres the nuts of the problem. Jade has no formal power to issue warnings. They certainly are not "formal". Heres why.
Theres an aparent contradiction in the CSM summary that says
1) The chair moderates the meeting
BUT
2) "A simple majority vote is required for passage"
Now under almost all legal jurastictions, 2) is generally read to mean what is known as a "Limited freedom of speech". Specifically that the person involved is permited full freedom of speech on any matter pertaining to the democratic process. Because if members are barred from speech, it is therefore not a democracy. For an example of a ruling of this , see "The crown vs the Communist Party of Australia", and note that this heuristic is backed up from follow up rulings around the world.
So how does the "Freedom of speech" thing interact with the seemingly contradictory power of moderation?
The key is in the word "Limited". The moderator has no power to stop a person speaking to matters pertaining to the meeting. If someone is a pain in the arse, but is speaking about matters regarding democracy or topics of discussion, that person has an inviolable right to do so. If however people start doing "z0r chains" or posting "farts", or whatever, then yes, the moderator can intervene. But only to the extent is restrains THAT behavior.
To mute someone for interjection or uncomfortable speech that is within the scope is a denial of Natural Law within the scope of democracy.
Jade stuffed up, and should conceed as much. I wouldn't support a no confidence, but I would if the behavior continuted. It is unbecoming of a chair (Along with Jades, and admittedly much of the councils concept of what an abstain vote means) and I'd remind Jade, that Jade does not have a choice in the matter. The chair is constrained by the very clear wording of "Simple majority" to permit ALL democratic speech, and respect the meaning of "Simple majority" to not count an abstain as a "Nae". |
Vandervecken Smith
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:31:00 -
[165]
You guys need to calm down.
I read every line of that meeting, and there's a number of simple issues at stake:
1) Jade is still figuring out how to Chair. It's not easy. Especially with a typing based meeting, and unknown people. Cut him some slack for gods sake.
2) Inanna was kept out of the chat room by technical error. A number of CSM members attested that he wasn't on the ban list. This turned what would have been a simple 30 mute into a big hullabaloo.
3) One incident is not enough to establish Jade as abusing his powers. Especially if there are technical issues. Inanna needs to stop over-reacting, and so do others.
4) Does the Chair have the right to mute people? I believe from meeting 2 it's been kinda established that he does. However, it was never voted upon and specifically agreed upon. Several people raised objections, but a vote went through to not give everyone op. It was probably unwise of jade to use muting power without a vote on record allowing him to do it, but really, it's not the end of the world. Inanna was being disruptive, and in my opinion in the previous meetings has made a habit of making loud objections to things in a way that seems designed to stop discussion. That's my personal view though. Suffice it to say that I haven't been impressed by Inanna's behaviour when s/he ends up on the losing side of a vote. By contrast whenever jade is on the losing side of a vote I notice he accepts it with good grace and moves on. If nothing else, this leads me to my opinion that Inanna was out of line, and more than a few times.
5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me. |
Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:39:00 -
[166]
farts
|
Joe Starbreaker
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:40:00 -
[167]
I suggest all council members be slaughtered except for the two Americans/Goons and that Goonswarm be granted dominion over all the regions of 0.0, forever. It is clear that no one else is prepared to lead us.
------------------------------------------------
|
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:43:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Vandervecken Smith
5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me.
Thats the non optional part. The CSMSummary pdf is quite explicit here. It says "Simple Majority".
This means. "More Ayes than Naes. Abstain counts as neither".
Thats all it means. 3:2:2 is a pass. Because its 3/5 votes with 2 abstains.
Theres no other interpretation. If 3:2:2 meant 3:4, then the term is "Absolute majority". The document is quite explicit that its not absolute , but simple.
______
Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
|
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:55:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 11/06/2008 07:56:01
How many times do I have to log in before it'll let me post? Cripes.
|
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:56:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Vandervecken Smith
You guys need to calm down.
I read every line of that meeting, and there's a number of simple issues at stake:
1) Jade is still figuring out how to Chair. It's not easy. Especially with a typing based meeting, and unknown people. Cut him some slack for gods sake.
2) Inanna was kept out of the chat room by technical error. A number of CSM members attested that he wasn't on the ban list. This turned what would have been a simple 30 mute into a big hullabaloo.
3) One incident is not enough to establish Jade as abusing his powers. Especially if there are technical issues. Inanna needs to stop over-reacting, and so do others.
4) Does the Chair have the right to mute people? I believe from meeting 2 it's been kinda established that he does. However, it was never voted upon and specifically agreed upon. Several people raised objections, but a vote went through to not give everyone op. It was probably unwise of jade to use muting power without a vote on record allowing him to do it, but really, it's not the end of the world. Inanna was being disruptive, and in my opinion in the previous meetings has made a habit of making loud objections to things in a way that seems designed to stop discussion. That's my personal view though. Suffice it to say that I haven't been impressed by Inanna's behaviour when s/he ends up on the losing side of a vote. By contrast whenever jade is on the losing side of a vote I notice he accepts it with good grace and moves on. If nothing else, this leads me to my opinion that Inanna was out of line, and more than a few times.
5) The issue of majority vote. I don't like the fact that 3 votes can push something through if 2 say no and 2 abstain on a 7 person quorum. I also don't like that in a pure majority of those present, abstains aren't meaningful. It's a hard question, but certain members of the CSM were MUCH too heated in the discussion, and that's what bothers me.
Yeah, it was a bug, but in the frenzy of the meeting, nobody really knew what was going on. Most of the members didn't even know anyone was muted, let alone kicked. The major problem is that Jade has said repeatedly that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong, and that he'll do the same thing in the future. This does not promote teamwork. Also, there's nine people on the council. Darius and Bane may be goons, but their positions still count. |
|
|
Endemoniado
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:08:00 -
[171]
Wholeheartedly supported. Until Jade goes and takes his divisive posturing with him nothing of value will come of this process. |
High Inquisitress
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:16:00 -
[172]
Supported.
Doesn't this already have more votes than the destructible stations idea Jade tried to railroad through anyway?
|
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:21:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Theramin Dogon
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven
ummm no, jade is doing her job fine.
Would you care to elaborate on what you believe Jade's job is? Here are some quotes the proponents of this thread would like you to consider:
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As to the general complaints about muting raised here. I stand 100% behind what I did. And I'd do exactly the same next time, to any CSM member who ignores 2 formal warnings on disruptive behaviour.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
while I have admitted some mistakes in that meeting I don't believe muting Inanna was one of them and I stand by that decision.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy and allowed them to impact the constitution of the CSM itself. Inevitably it led to problems as people try to vote themselves advantage.
It all sounds good to me as any body of ppl needs strong leadership and a firm hand when it comes to discipline, jade seems to have things in hand as far as keeping ppl on track is concerned. |
Xeno Xandovar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 -
[174]
No support for this rubbish.
|
Adam Schmidt
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:31:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Adam Schmidt on 11/06/2008 08:31:31
Supported. Impeach the pooch. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:32:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Adam Schmidt
Edited by: Adam Schmidt on 11/06/2008 08:31:31
Supported. Impeach the pooch.
Impeach??.
Are you crazy or just simple. |
Morris Falter
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:33:00 -
[177]
Bad egg. |
Xplained
Welsh Wizards
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:50:00 -
[178]
Judging by some of Jade's answers, is he like 14 yrs of age?
I vote to remove him from the chair, i've never been a fan of BOB, but i would rather see DB Preacher in the chair 
|
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:51:00 -
[179]
Anyone who suggests that a democratic committee needs a "Strong leader" to "Discipline" it , clearly has no ******* idea how a committee work. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:58:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
Anyone who suggests that a democratic committee needs a "Strong leader" to "Discipline" it , clearly has no ******* idea how a committee work.
Every committee has a chair person who's responsibilities include keeping order during meetings, and that takes a certain strength of personality to accomplish or things become a shouting match.
And anybody who does not see that, clearly has no ******* idea what ppl can be like. |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |