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uhrslart
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:52:00 -
[31]
As a small 3-people-corp (not one person with 3Alts ;-) ) we would have to trash the corp so that one guy can join FW and the other 2 can still do there trading without interference, which is not a good option, but i guess that is what will happen. FW ignores and in our case destroys small corps / gives them no soft migration option and just favours lone wolf players or 100% dedicated FW corps...but no space in between - would be nice to have some in a future update...
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KingOzar
Brute Strength
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:03:00 -
[32]
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
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Jmanis Catharg
Stickler inc
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:03:00 -
[33]
 Quote:
we would have to trash the corp so that one guy can join FW and the other 2 can still do there trading without interference, which is not a good option, but i guess that is what will happen. FW ignores and in our case destroys small corps
Why does it do that? If you have two trading guys who want to trade "without interference" and a third wants FW, what interaction has to continue between those three players? I certainly can't think of much that can't be arranged through contracting items to the other two players back in corp.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:24:00 -
[34]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 11/06/2008 05:26:29
Originally by: Vladimir Titov
Actually it would be neat if the militia's worked like RL militia's. For instance here in the US you can join the National Guard and you don't have to quit your job, you just have to report for duty 2 weekends/month. At least thats what they say in the ads.
So what if your in your corp and your at war with another corp and you get into a fleet battle and the guy your CEO calls primary is in your militia and if you shoot him you take a .5 standing hit and get kicked out of FW?
really this is the only reason.
along same lines what if someone in your corp is of an enemy militia? now your at war with other people in your corp and you'll have to shoot them if you want to will and to get kills.
another issue invite new payer that is in enemy militia to join your corp, kill him for free.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:35:00 -
[35]
why would you waste your time with factional warfare
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Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Trocent
The only word there even suggesting that you can't be in a corperation is the word Lonesome. And that could come off meaning anything. The Weblog should have stated clearly that you can not be in a player run corperation. I was looking through that weblog good and hard and when I came to:
Quote:
In order to sign up as an individual, you need to meet a couple of criteria. Firstly you must not be on a trial account. Secondly, you have to have a faction standing from that faction of 0.5 or higher. It's intentionally a very low barrier to entry, as the Empires aren't being too choosy right now! Thirdly, you must not have previously signed up to a Militia in the last 24 hours, to prevent people yo-yoing in and out of Militias.
Three things listed. Not one saying that you can not be in a militia.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Signing up as an individual
The administrative core of each Militia is a specialist NPC corporation. If you're just interested in signing up on your lonesome, this is the corporation you'll need to get into. (...) Either way, if you meet the requirements you'll be moved into the NPC corporation and become part of Factional Warfare.
Read what I underlined. It say very clearly that you will be moved in the NPC corporation.
If you are in a NPC corporation you can't be in a PC corporation at the same time. Ergo you need to leave your PC corporation to join the militia as a single player.
There is a special dispensation for whole Corporations signing ups, but not for individuals within a player corporation. And that is only right as I can see severals exploits with wardec and militia gangs if that was possible, beside problems like having 2 players in the same corporation at war between them as they are in different corporations.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:04:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Trocent
Corperations shouldn't be split up just because one person wants to join the war and the corperation doesn't. Nore should it be split up because the Corperation wants to join the war and a few of the members don't want to.
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
I already explained it to you. If your mechanics were in then I could declare war on solo individuals or pick out the carebears of a corp and ONLY declare war on them. I've been to a lot of planets in EVE and on none of them can part of a group declare war on someone. It's either the entire group or none at all. What you describe is ridiculous lunacy that doesn't make any sense.
Secondly, if you want to fight in a war and your corporation doesn't, that is a PERFECT reason why you should split from your corp. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Trocent
This isn't about me joining the war one second and leaving the other. And its not about a choice between being with my corp or being with the war. It should be obvious that Im not going to leave my corp for the war, Thats why I wrote this thread. Corperations shouldn't be split up just because one person wants to join the war and the corperation doesn't. Nore should it be split up because the Corperation wants to join the war and a few of the members don't want to.
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason? And maybe members of the some alliance at war with other members?
There are very valid reasons why you could join only as a single individual in the NPC corporation or as a whole corporation, not piecemeal.
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KingOzar
Brute Strength
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: KingOzar
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
^^^This guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Why don't you think about it a little bit? |
50freefly
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Trocent
Im wishing that I didn't reregister to the game now.
I agree, you should cancel your sub RIGHT NOW to protest this clearly unfair action on the part of CCP. |
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Sicil Fioet
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:19:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Sicil Fioet on 11/06/2008 06:19:27
There are several activities in the game that you cannot get involved in at the same time due to how the game works, so you are put before a choice. And making this choice if you can't abandon the former to do the later you don't get mad. You get alts :)
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: KingOzar
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
Then why are the RPing Alliances are being left out? What if I RP but my corp does not?
Originally by: Vaal Erit
I already explained it to you. If your mechanics were in then I could declare war on solo individuals or pick out the carebears of a corp and ONLY declare war on them. I've been to a lot of planets in EVE and on none of them can part of a group declare war on someone. It's either the entire group or none at all. What you describe is ridiculous lunacy that doesn't make any sense.
Secondly, if you want to fight in a war and your corporation doesn't, that is a PERFECT reason why you should split from your corp.
What are you talking about. Individuals not in a player run corperation can already be allowed in. If an individual joins the faction wars they aren't going to war with just one person.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason?
So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger.
Originally by: 50freefly
I agree, you should cancel your sub RIGHT NOW to protest this clearly unfair action on the part of CCP.
Clever. I bet you'll want my stuff. Your input was greatly appreciated.
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Anyway, most of you are missing the point. The restriction does not need to be there. The only thing that would change if CCP allowed people to join the war without leaving their corp would be that more people would be happy about the update.
If this wont change than I sure hope CCP wont allow corperations as a whole to join the war. It would make sense afterall. Pirates are the most organised PvPers in the game next to maybe those holding 0.0 space. At least disallowing corperations would break up their ability to remain organised ^.~ |
Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pyrochasm
Where would one travel if looking to shoot at traitorous minmatar/gallente without having to quit the current corporation?
Low-sec. |
Shanur
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:09:00 -
[44]
Why do you want to remain in a corp that does not want to play the game the same way you do anyway? The sole benefit of a corp is that you get to do things together. If they do not want to do FW, i'd consider that a mismatch between your and your corp's goals.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:14:00 -
[45]
thanks for ignoring my post.
what happens when one of your allies is primaried?
hell half of the corp you've declared war on is also ON YOUR SIDE, THIS IS A PROBLEM.
you're basically asking why players can't join more than one corporation at the same time. |
Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:15:00 -
[46]
You argue that you as an individual can go into lowsec and shoot at passers-by without involving your corporation. That is generally not true, however.
Your corporation will most likely be marked red by the people you attack. If they are in NPC corporations, you take a standings hit to those corporations. Which means that your corporation also takes a standings hit, since you feed into the corporate standings. At least you will now, since you have been shooting at NPC corp members.
In Eve, there is very much guilt by association. The actions of one member reflects on the corporation as a whole, as far as the factions go. And this is how it has always been.
You are not entitled to enjoy every part of the game. You are entitled to enjoy the parts of the game that your choices make available to you. Your path through Eve is unique, but can intersect with the paths of anyone else, depending on what branches you walk down.
And as pointed out above, Greyscale specifically mentioned moving to an NPC corporation when signing up as an individual. It was documented, but it was part of the fine print you skipped over in your excitement. Many others have whined about it, but at the end of the day it was decided as the best way to introduce it. They chose a proven in-game mechanic rather than introducing something that would most likely break upon deployment and then be broken by players later on as we learn to play the system in new and interesting ways that cause the community in general to pull their hair out at the ten threads an hour created to whine about it.
The limitations are not what we expected six months ago, no. But I understand why they did it the way they did it, and I approve of it on those terms. Socially, it is not optimal, but mechanically it was probably the best choice. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:19:00 -
[47]
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Trocent
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
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Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:30:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Trocent
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
And I want a toilet made of gold, but that's just not in the cards now, is it?
Eve has always been about choices, and not all of them are easy or nice. You go down one path, you can't go down another at the same time.
Really, though, just ensure you don't have rights and use your corp's public channel, and you can hop back and forth between the two with no problems, and even keep chatting with them the whole time. Do a few corp ops, go fight with the militia, and then hop back to your corp.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: MotherMoon
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
And Im assuming english isn't yours. Anyway, so corps wont be able to declare war on other corps in the faction war? So I guess if my corp gets wardecced by a corp in the caldari militia, I will just get the corp to join that same militia just for a day. Sweet. No more war for my corp. CCP probably already thought of an exploit like that and made Corp to Corp wars take priority over faction war. So the two corps in the same factionwar can still attack eachother without standing loss.
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Misanth
Electro Fuels
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:42:00 -
[51]
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: MotherMoon
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
And Im assuming english isn't yours. Anyway, so corps wont be able to declare war on other corps in the faction war? So I guess if my corp gets wardecced by a corp in the caldari militia, I will just get the corp to join that same militia just for a day. Sweet. No more war for my corp. CCP probably already thought of an exploit like that and made Corp to Corp wars take priority over faction war. So the two corps in the same factionwar can still attack eachother without standing loss.
oh sorry for a few typos.
anyways that doesn't work either.
If they make it so that player corp wars overwrite factional war you can declare war on a corp in FW, then as a corp not in FW all sign up one by one for the same side as the corp you wardeced.
Now you go into high sec where you won't be shot but your side NPCs or concord and you start to grief players.
Also I wasn't talking about you declaring war on a corp in FW I was talking about every time any corp declares war on aother corp both sides would have all four factions in their ranks, meaning that either A. factional warfare takes over and you can't shoot half the corp you deced, or
B.the corp war takes over and now when you want to take part in Factional warfare and not your corps war you'll join a factional warfare gang and you'll be able to shoot militia members without taking a standings lost. which would be an exploit because you could declare war on a corp knowing they have members in a militia and then you could kill players in highsec without standings loss.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
wh=at are you talking about you can fight for ammar if you join caldari.
go to ammar low sec space.
go to contested area.
gang with ammar pilots.
Take over points, now sure your with the caldari navy but your on the minatar/ammar side of space so even if your the only one it captures in the name of the ammar.
you can shoot minmatar players freely.
you can't enter minmatar highsec.
honestly you can only sign up of one of two sides.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
Um... Caldari and Amarr are on the same side. True fact. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:56:00 -
[55]
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is. |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is.
People have already explained why it is the way it is. It is completely illogical to allow individuals to sign up for FW without leaving their corps, as you'd end up with loads o peple in the same corp at war with each other. Now I know you think that's fine, but for me that makes no sense. You're in a corp and should be working together, not fighting for different sides in an intergalactic war. It would be the equivalent of 2 corps within an alliances going to war with each other whilst staying part of the alliance. If that happened one or the other would have to leave the alliance to set the other one red. So why with FW should you be allowed to be in a corp with people you are at war with? |
Misanth
Electro Fuels
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
wh=at are you talking about you can fight for ammar if you join caldari.
go to ammar low sec space.
go to contested area.
gang with ammar pilots.
Take over points, now sure your with the caldari navy but your on the minatar/ammar side of space so even if your the only one it captures in the name of the ammar.
you can shoot minmatar players freely.
you can't enter minmatar highsec.
honestly you can only sign up of one of two sides.
* My corpmates are running missions for Caldari, not Amarr, and Misanth hates Caldari. So I'm refusing to fight for them and with them. It brings the corp to -1 player and puts me alone vs war targets the corp signed for.
* I can't run missions for Amarr militia.
* I can't get standing up with Amarr, without leaving my corp.
This system as it works is splitting corps apart. We already had one guy leaving the corp today to fight with Gallente, the corp is signed up for Caldari and thus I refuse to fight with them, and I know another guy that won't fight as well.
Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably. Here's how the FW should've been done:
- 4 way fighting. All factions against eachother, you chose who you fight or not. Sign for Amarr and you can chose to fight (or not to) the others. If you don't fight them you won't lose standings. As long as you got a positive standing with another faction they won't consider you a WT. That way I can side with Gallente and fight Minmatar and Caldari when I'm Amarr.
- Allow people to sign individually without leaving their corps. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is.
You really don't get it? damn it corps going to war has EVERYTHING to do with why they aren't allowing it.
Quote:
This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only way it would work would be if one single member of a corporation was in Factional warfare that corp could no longer declare war on any other corp if they had at least one members in factional warfare.
Think of it this way what if you could join both sides of a war dec, it wouldn't work, factional warfare gives you the right to shoot people right? and takes away the right. Which mean .,...
OK NEVER MIND BETTER IDEA!
Go into 0.0 space, have your corporation fly with an alliance gang. Now while your flying in 0.0 with your alliance fleet, you come across a allaince that has you set to red! So they open fire! you call for backup, but the alliance your flying with has them set to blue, so they can't fire on them without risking getting set to red as well. So the FC has to figure out what to do, tells half the fleet to warp away while the other hlaf of the fleet can't protect your corp.
another good test is when two blue allainces fly together that have another allaince set red and the other allaince has them set blue.
So when they get into the fight a the FC calls out! attack the interdictor, but half of the fleet goes "sorry sir those guys are blue to us we can't fire on them"
it's PURE LOGISTICAL HELL.
if you were ever involved in 0.0 warfare you would understand why you can't join multiple organizations.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Misanth
Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably.
... but yet he apparently wants to stay with his corp who are all gung- ho about signing up for caldari. 
Yeah, I see some RP fail here.
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Jakus Cemendur on 11/06/2008 08:22:39
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon, if a corperate war overrides the faction war then you'll just fight the corperation your at war with, even if they were on the same faction side. Thats not very difficult.
But then what's the point of being in FW if you're just going to shoot your fellow militia? I'm frankly glad CCP have done what they have done as it's a much more logical system than the one you're proposing which basically is you just trying to make it so you can do everything you want to without making choices.
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