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Misanth Electro Fuels	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Quelque Chose Originally by: Misanth Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably. ... but yet he apparently wants to stay with his corp who are all gung- ho about signing up for caldari. Yeah, I see some RP fail here. I refuse to fight with them, simply put. I'm not a pure roleplayer, then I'd join one of the existing Amarr-only corps and problem was solved. Most of my gametime is dedicated to fly with people I like. My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot. * I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari. * I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier. * I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call. The whole MMO-aspect dies, the whole FW-aspect (I can't fight for the faction I chose) dies. It's just ******** on so many points. If my corp could've signed up as individuals and all still stay in the corp, it would've made things alot better. Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr. They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem. If we could've signed individually this would never have been an issue.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Trocent MotherMoon, if a corperate war overrides the faction war then you'll just fight the corperation your at war with, even if they were on the same faction side. Thats not very difficult. But what happens when your at war but your not fighting with your corp? instead of your fighting with your second corp in FW, now you have the same issue but backwards. You'll be in a gang and some of your mates in your fleet will be at war with you out side of factional warfare. This mean you'll be able to attacking them without the standings loss put in place to kick people out of factional warfare or shooting their own men. Once again why not just go get yourself set to blue with the militia corp and fight with them? you don't need to be in FW to fight with them or even to share the rewards from FW missions.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:29:00 - [63] Quote: * I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier. * I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call. well you'll have the ammar militia you are allied with them by being signed up for FW.
Acrea Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:30:00 - [64] It's RP right? So keeping in character... If your corp signed up for the guys you dont like or wont support the people you like, what would your in character response be? Wether it be ic or ooc, just sitting and moaning about what the gods/devs decided on doesnt change anything. Things are as they are and complaining will not resolve anything. Adapt or ignore.
Astria Tiphareth	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:38:00 - [65] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 11/06/2008 08:40:49 Originally by: MotherMoon Once again why not just go get yourself set to blue with the militia corp and fight with them? you don't need to be in FW to fight with them or even to share the rewards from FW missions. Partially true. I don't think the security status system takes this into account though. As you probably know, normally combat actions in low-sec mean the initiator gets a sec status hit with CONCORD. Militia - militia combat will not. I don't think this will apply to the above scenario though. Edit: An interesting one to take up in the features & suggestions forum though... After all if the militia have fleeted you, they must trust you (or be stupid)... In addition, though not strictly on-topic, on the subject of corp wars, CONCORD have changed how they respond in this patch to fleeted war members. If you are in a fleet and someone else in that fleet is at war, you are no longer a legitimate war target. You firing on their enemies or vice-versa will bring down CONCORD in high-sec. This means those corps at war in the militia can fight their war but the other militia present aren 't involved.
Ordon Gundar Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:45:00 - [66] Roll a combat alt. Send it some cash from your main. Kit it out. Gain the standing. Join up. FIGHT!!
Astria Tiphareth	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:47:00 - [67] Originally by: Misanth Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr. So you enjoy roleplaying to an extent but your corp does not? Seems a bit odd to have joined them, with respect. However, your call not mine. Originally by: Misanth They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem. If their intention was to sign for Amarr, then why haven't they been supporting the Amarr? That is the only reason standings would be low - if they've been out shooting at Amarr ships. If they are so shallow as to sign right now for a faction they didn't intend to support, rather than accepting they may need to grind standings a little, then they surely aren't in this for the roleplay. Secondly, Caldari and Amarr are allies, so I have every expectation of seeing Caldari fleets attacking Minmatar strongholds and Amarr fleets attacking Gallente Strongholds.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Misanth I refuse to fight with them, simply put. I'm not a pure roleplayer, then I'd join one of the existing Amarr-only corps and problem was solved. Most of my gametime is dedicated to fly with people I like. My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot. * I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari. * I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier. * I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call. The whole MMO-aspect dies, the whole FW-aspect (I can't fight for the faction I chose) dies. It's just ****** on so many points. If my corp could've signed up as individuals and all still stay in the corp, it would've made things alot better. Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr. They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem. If we could've signed individually this would never have been an issue. Oh, OK, lemme get this straight: You don't RP ALL the time, just SOME of the time -- mainly at those times when it's most likely to turn out to be a complete pain in the ass for you or rather just when it's INCONVENIENT for you to do so. And luckily you've helped yourself out in that dept. by generating this one- dimensional, wooden character who basically doesn't do much but sit around, hate Caldari people and assiduously avoid situations where he might even possibly have to make a difficult decision or overcome anything resembling a mildly challenging problem. In fact this character of yours is so amazingly dead- set against experiencing any of the internal or external conflicts which usually serve to promote growth of some sort (known in The Biz(tm) as "development" and in other places as "interestingness" or maybe even "depth") that this game mechanic combined with the fact that your corp's sloth runs to such depths that they can't even be arsed to grind out a measly 0.5 means that all immersion is now completely broken for you and in fact the RP end of the game is now utter *. You're not so attached to RP that you can be bothered to figure out how your character might come to terms with a gasp!* complicated state of affairs, but you are attached to it just enough that you'll now sit around and pout about it for days. I'll say this for your character: he's realistic. I've known tons of people (a lot of them on the internet, amusingly) who manage to blunder through life in such a haphazard and cowardly fashion. But you know what? Reality makes for crappy fiction. Your character sir has no balls and I really can't bring myself to generate much sympathy for him.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Trocent The only word there even suggesting that you can't be in a corperation is the word Lonesome. And that could come off meaning anything. The Weblog should have stated clearly that you can not be in a player run corperation. I was looking through that weblog good and hard and when I came to: Quote: In order to sign up as an individual, you need to meet a couple of criteria. Firstly you must not be on a trial account. Secondly, you have to have a faction standing from that faction of 0.5 or higher. It's intentionally a very low barrier to entry, as the Empires aren't being too choosy right now! Thirdly, you must not have previously signed up to a Militia in the last 24 hours, to prevent people yo-yoing in and out of Militias. Three things listed. Not one saying that you can not be in a militia. "if you meet the requirements you'll be moved into the NPC corporation"
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.11 10:12:00 - [70] Quote: you can shoot minmatar players freely. you can't enter minmatar highsec Almost correct, except you take Sec hits which will mean you cannot enter high sec. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'

ShadowMaiden Metal Machine	Posted - 2008.06.11 10:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Doc Fury Edited by: Doc Fury on 10/06/2008 23:29:22 If there was a War against your Country (in RL) and you chose to enlist in the military, you'd have to quit your present job (corporation) to do so. Not 100% Accurate - In the UK you can serve as a reservist; if you are subject to compulsary deployment, your Civillian job is protected in law, so it's their when you get back. You're still actually employed but on unpaid leave for the duration of your deployment.
Chiefs Fan Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.11 10:44:00 - [72] dont you guys see the solution? just break off into a seperate group that wants to join the fw. make your own "corp" join the fw, and set your old corp to a nap standing and set up a private channel where you all can chat. also keep an alt in the other main corp if you feel like it. you can even share intel from the opposite militias if you join both sides. yes it sucks cause if you all dont wanna join up together youre losing corp hangers and all that but like i said, split off and clone your corp and use naps and similar/minion corp name. even irl a family grows and the kids split off and make families of their own. you still have the ability to keep in touch. just be creative.
Grarr Dexx Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.11 10:52:00 - [73] Commitment is a rare deed nowadays
Vivisacia Vivicide	Posted - 2008.06.11 11:43:00 - [74] Edited by: Vivisacia on 11/06/2008 11:43:24 Originally by: Misanth My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot. * I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari. Don't you mean you won't PvP with them, as you refuse to fight for Caldari? You CAN PvP with them, you just choose not to. Cadlari? FW? Alt?
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:53:00 - [75] Originally by: Trocent Originally by: Venkul Mul Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason? So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger. So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him? Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out. And I am sure your alliance (it you are in one) will appreciate you firing on the Gallente and Minmatar players in the alliance and then justifying "they are in the enemy militia".
Resamo	Posted - 2008.06.11 17:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Trocent Originally by: Venkul Mul Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason? So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger. So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him? Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out. And I am sure your alliance (it you are in one) will appreciate you firing on the Gallente and Minmatar players in the alliance and then justifying "they are in the enemy militia". An all encompasing war destroying communits and friends... thats crazy talk! If you want in on the faction war you have to be in all of it you cant just pick and choose what you like about it. No one goes to 0.0 to mine asuming they can choose not go get shot.
Trocent Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:51:00 - [77] Originally by: Venkul Mul So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him? Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out. Firing on your own corp mates really depends on whether or not your corp allows it. I've been in one where they killed eachother onsite. If your corp doesn't allow it you simple don't do it. If there are people in the same corp who are in the different militia then it would be a corp decision on how to engage your corp mates. It wouldn't be hard to just say that you can only attack one another if you are in a mission opposing eachother. Aside from that you just don't fire on eachother. Its really not hard.
Trocent Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:56:00 - [78] Originally by: Resamo An all encompasing war destroying communits and friends... thats crazy talk! If you want in on the faction war you have to be in all of it you cant just pick and choose what you like about it. No one goes to 0.0 to mine asuming they can choose not go get shot. Who says we wont be all in? I don't want to join so I can sit around and throw flowers at people. I want to get into the war so I can fight other people. Do the new missions designed for the game. I want to eventually lose ships and get pod killed if I really screw up.
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.11 19:04:00 - [79] Originally by: Trocent Originally by: Venkul Mul So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him? Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out. Firing on your own corp mates really depends on whether or not your corp allows it. I've been in one where they killed eachother onsite. If your corp doesn't allow it you simple don't do it. If there are people in the same corp who are in the different militia then it would be a corp decision on how to engage your corp mates. It wouldn't be hard to just say that you can only attack one another if you are in a mission opposing eachother. Aside from that you just don't fire on eachother. Its really not hard. And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"? Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable? Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it.
Trocent Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:00:00 - [80] Originally by: Venkul Mul And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"? Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable? Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it. I clearly stated that you have the choice not to fight a corp mate unless your both in the mission and on opposite sides. Well really, you have the option at any time. You have the Option to not fire on any enemy for no real reason. You can go AFK in the middle of battle. There really isn't much difference.

Jakke Logan F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:16:00 - [81] This point was brought up and hammered at the devs to no avail. They wouldn't listen to a damn thing. And it (plus the alliance ban issue) will need resolving if FW is to ever be a significant system in the game.
Omanji	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:22:00 - [82] Seriously? Don't you guys realize this is kind of lazy programing by CCP? They didn't actually make a whole new format for the FW for individuals, all they made was a NPC Corp. Really? No one at CCP had a better idea? They put all this work into FW and they had a case of lackluster follow through on the player side? Maybe if CCP didn't half ass things, this problem wouldn't exist. So, Yes, Give CCP ****, they made a great game but they are still prone to screwing up from time to time (Learning Skills). Oh P.S. Let's go for constructive criticism. No, "Quit the game then" or "Devs knows best!". If you want to constantly repeat CCP mantra, join a cult.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:27:00 - [83] Originally by: Trocent Originally by: Venkul Mul And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"? Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable? Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it. I clearly stated that you have the choice not to fight a corp mate unless your both in the mission and on opposite sides. Well really, you have the option at any time. You have the Option to not fire on any enemy for no real reason. You can go AFK in the middle of battle. There really isn't much difference. still ignoring what would happen to your war targets in the faction corp I see. WHY should corp wars overpower faction corp roles when the faction corp is A CORPERATION.
Bel Amar Interslice Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:27:00 - [84] Originally by: Trocent I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate. As the rules currently stand, the only way someone in an alliance can join FW is if they or their corp leaves the alliance and joins FW. Whether or not you agree with it, CCP stopped alliances joining in FW, because it didn't want them to dominate it. They wanted to aim it at high sec people who otherwise might not get involved with PvP. Your suggestion would let people stay in their alliances without any penalty, and thus still end up dominating FW. That is your very good reason as to why the rules were designed the way they are, whether or not you agree with them
Gridwalker	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:53:00 - [85] All of these points that are being brought up are good ones, but there is also quite a bit of pointless rhetoric. For example, the whole "choice" thing. Faction Warfare offers an illusion of choice, when in fact it removes it. If I, as an individual, decide that I want to join a militia and later run across a war target in my same militia, THAT is a choice. By preventing me from joining a militia, the truly hard choices are taken away from me. What do I do when a war target is in my militia? Do I attack and lose standing with my militia? Do I refuse to attack and get kicked out of my corporation? THAT is a choice. In alliance warfare, people are often forced to make choices like that already! You can easily find yourself in a situation where a corporation you are at war with is in an alliance you technically have a nap with. I've seen it, and seen it dealt with. Even in the real world, war is often very far from cut and dry. In the US Civil War, it was not unheard of for BROTHERS to find themselves on the same battlefield on opposing sides. Even in modern day wars, you can find groups who fight under the same banner but are in fact in opposition of each other. The word "militia" isn't even being used correctly in FW. It is being treated like a branch of military service, when the word truly refers to citizen soldiers. A militia is a group of civilians who take up arms for a country or cause, not professional soldiers under the direct employ of a country or nation. My point is, in an effort to make things easy on themselves and simple to model, CCP took the easy way out and tried to redefine war as a clean and straightforward affair. They obviously have some sort of old view of war, where everyone gathers in a field at a predetermined time wearing brightly colored clothing, form orderly lines, and shoot at each other on command while ladies and gentlemen watch, while sipping tea and eating pastries on a nearby hill. That isn't war in EVE. War is complex, dirty, and inconvenient. Modern war can happen anywhere, at any time, and it is often difficult to determine who your real enemies are. -Grid
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:01:00 - [86] Originally by: Omanji Seriously? Don't you guys realize this is kind of lazy programing by CCP? They didn't actually make a whole new format for the FW for individuals, all they made was a NPC Corp. Really? No one at CCP had a better idea? They put all this work into FW and they had a case of lackluster follow through on the player side? Maybe if CCP didn't half ass things, this problem wouldn't exist. So, Yes, Give CCP ****, they made a great game but they are still prone to screwing up from time to time (Learning Skills). Oh P.S. Let's go for constructive criticism. No, "Quit the game then" or "Devs knows best!". If you want to constantly repeat CCP mantra, join a cult. Well, OK. It's because they "half- assed" it. Some things to consider: 1. Maybe generating a whole new system that would allow for dual membership didn't fit budget/ time constraints this time out. 2. Maybe they thought it would be better to sort out the internal mechanisms before piling an extra mechanic like that on top of it. If you think about it, the current signup mechanisms seem well- suited to attracting a statistically significant but not overwhelming pool of initial participants. I can't guarantee that that's what they were thinking, but it makes sense to me. They've already said they plan to expand it, maybe dual memberships will come later. 3. Eve already has a crapton of major career activities and all of them contribute to the overall economy/ ecosystem. It would definitely be a Bad Thing(tm) if any one of them garnered say 50+% of the playerbase. 4. Dual membership means more db queries for an already insanely complicated aggression mechanic in empire space. If CCP won't let asset search look in cans what makes you think they're going to go for that? And finally, while it's true that CCP hasn't come forward with a "good reason" why it should be this way vis a vis corporations and dual memberships; neither have I yet seen a good reason why it should be allowed other than "I want to have my cake and eat it too," which isn't a good reason at all IMO. Either one seems to me like a valid way to do it and all other things being equal were I in the devs' position I'd probably choose to err on the side of simplicity.
Trocent Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:17:00 - [87] Originally by: MotherMoon still ignoring what would happen to your war targets in the faction corp I see. WHY should corp wars overpower faction corp roles when the faction corp is A CORPERATION. So whats going to happen when two corperations on the same side of the faction war are at war? There needs to be something already implemented to cover that issue. Originally by: Bel Amar Your suggestion would let people stay in their alliances without any penalty, and thus still end up dominating FW. That is your very good reason as to why the rules were designed the way they are, whether or not you agree with them Im not arguing the Alliance point. I do think its a rather poor choice that all the Roleplaying Alliances get the shaft but my problem is with taking the effort to exclude those who are in regular corperations. I am under the impression that CCP didn't want to nerf corperation but thats exactly what they did.
Omanji	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:18:00 - [88] Originally by: Quelque Chose 1. Maybe generating a whole new system that would allow for dual membership didn't fit budget/ time constraints this time out. 2. Maybe they thought it would be better to sort out the internal mechanisms before piling an extra mechanic like that on top of it. If you think about it, the current signup mechanisms seem well- suited to attracting a statistically significant but not overwhelming pool of initial participants. I can't guarantee that that's what they were thinking, but it makes sense to me. They've already said they plan to expand it, maybe dual memberships will come later. 3. Eve already has a crapton of major career activities and all of them contribute to the overall economy/ ecosystem. It would definitely be a Bad Thing(tm) if any one of them garnered say 50+% of the playerbase. 4. Dual membership means more db queries for an already insanely complicated aggression mechanic in empire space. If CCP won't let asset search look in cans what makes you think they're going to go for that? Let's not get into the first 2, after all, they are just conjecture. Number 3 is a Non-Issue. Oh wait, 4 is just a guess also. The argument being made here isn't "I want my cake and eat it too". FW has handicapped the players access to the depth of gaming EVE has to offer. If you were actually reading most of these post you would realize that most people are willing to make a sacrifice for a more complex gaming experience. If we all wanted simplicity we would be playing WoW.
Jarvis Hellstrom The Flying Tigers Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:38:00 - [89] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur People have already explained why it is the way it is. It is completely illogical to allow individuals to sign up for FW without leaving their corps, as you'd end up with loads o peple in the same corp at war with each other. Now I know you think that's fine, but for me that makes no sense. You're in a corp and should be working together, not fighting for different sides in an intergalactic war. It would be the equivalent of 2 corps within an alliances going to war with each other whilst staying part of the alliance. If that happened one or the other would have to leave the alliance to set the other one red. So why with FW should you be allowed to be in a corp with people you are at war with? Never heard of the American Civil War? Brother against brother - but still part of the same family. Folks from the same state fighting against one another - even one state which split entirely apart because it couldn't stand the stress. Corps are not usually made up all of one race in EVE. They might well have Matari, Caldari, Gallente and Amarr all working side by side. Then the war comes. Each goes home and they fight one another tragically killing friends and former allies. Corps are much like families, there is no reason why a CEO might not watch sadly as his people head off to fight on opposite sides without actually dismissing them - particularly if it serves his or her interests. Indeed a corp might well want to have irons in both fires so as to come out smelling like a rose whoever wins. There are real world parallels in any Civil War you care to name, the Hundred Years War, the Wars of the Roses (in particular) any of the Roman internal struggles, the Fur Trade wars in North America etc. In short, CCP made a choice. I'm sure they felt that they made it for good reason and they may be right for all manner of game balance or coding reasons. However it wasn't the only choice and, from an RP standpoint, not even necessarily the right one. CCP has made errors before and fixed them, yet there are those who defend every choice the make as though it was irreversibly carved in stone. Well they aren't, and so it's been shown. They're human, they make errors or they find better ways and change course. The OP's opinion is valid. It's your right to disagree of course, but that doesn't make him 'wrong' just someone who holds a different opinion.
Omanji	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:51:00 - [90] Originally by: Quelque Chose So I guess if we're completely eliminating conjecture we can just go ahead and strike your previous post from the record can't we? Actually, they were rhetorical questions. But you answered them all the same. I'm still not seeing your point. Are you arguing that CCP should make an expansion that is only attractive to a portion of the EVE players. Or that they don't have enough resources to actually make a comprehensive expansion (they are only back up by Viacom). Once again, bug are a non-issue. They are expected, we deal with them.



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