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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:56:00 -
[1]
Am I the only one very mad that we need to disband from a corperation if we want to join the militia as an individual. Is there any work around. Is there any plans to allow those who wish to stay in a player run corperation and still be able to join? Im wishing that I didn't reregister to the game now. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:56:00 -
[2]
Accidently posted as my Alt. |
Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:57:00 -
[3]
Uhm...
You need to leave one corp, to join another.
OR
your corp can join up as a whole.
Pretty simple. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:10:00 -
[4]
Neither of those are options at this point. The corp as a whole does not wish to join, But some of the members in it want to. So they have to leave the corp in order to experience a part of the game.. That is just messed up. |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:12:00 -
[5]
No its not. How is it the games fault and not yours? You're refusing to sign up, nobody is stopping you. Its really bloody easy. |
Ortela Devereaux
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ortela Devereaux on 10/06/2008 23:12:33
No. The point of a corp is to pursue a common goal together. You're obviously not in the right corp.
Edit: Your reregistered stuff, can I have it? |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 10/06/2008 23:14:49
sorry but eve has also been like this if your in a 0.0 corp you won't fight empire wars, if your in empire corp you won't be in 0.0
FW in itself is a corp.
also protip, you don't have to join fw to FIGHT IN IT. |
Karaya Yi
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:15:00 -
[8]
're-register the game' ?
So, you werent active anyway, and you're complaining you have to leave the player corp you werent active in to play FW? Yeah, wut? |
cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:29:00 -
[9]
If your corp as a whole doesn't want to join FW, and you and a handful of individuals do, maybe you should make a new corp together and have that corp join FW. Otherwise, stick with your current corp. You can't enjoy both an independent non-FW corp and an FW-experience at the same time unless you have alts (alts solve every problem).
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Earning Isk
Basic Skills |
Doc Fury
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Doc Fury on 10/06/2008 23:29:22
If there was a War against your Country (in RL) and you chose to enlist in the military, you'd have to quit your present job (corporation) to do so.
It's so safe to play along, little soldiers in a row
Falling in and out of love, with something sweet to throw away.
I want something good to DIE for...to make it beautiful to live. |
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Pyrochasm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:40:00 -
[11]
Where would one travel if looking to shoot at traitorous minmatar/gallente without having to quit the current corporation? |
Spineker
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:44:00 -
[12]
 Originally by: Karaya Yi
're-register the game' ?
So, you werent active anyway, and you're complaining you have to leave the player corp you werent active in to play FW? Yeah, wut?
LOL must really love those guys huh?
I would boot him from my corp. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Trocent
Neither of those are options at this point. The corp as a whole does not wish to join, But some of the members in it want to. So they have to leave the corp in order to experience a part of the game.. That is just messed up.
Just like:
1. How you need at least one other player or an alt in order to move capitals
2. How you need to be part of an alliance to hold space
3. How you need to hold space (and as such be part of an alliance) in order to construct supercapital ships
Sorry, but your argument is extremely flawed. There are plenty of part of EVE that you cannot experience without making certain sacrifices. How would this be any different if your corporation was deciding whether to join an alliance or not, half did and the other half didn't? |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:50:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 10/06/2008 23:50:37
And no, you're not the only one mad about it, you're just the only one getting the message a bit late. This was made public ages ago and many many many people have whined about it already. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:55:00 -
[15]
Oh, you gotta leave your corp, the hell with that |
Kuranta
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:12:00 -
[16]
You're late for the bandwagon.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:14:00 -
[17]
One of the Dev blogs about joining the faction wars did not state anything about leaving a corperation to join the faction wars. Thats why I am all ticked off. I went from being alright about not being able to participate in the faction wars to getting very excited about the possibility.
Really, it would have been easy to program in the ability to join the faction wars while remaining in a corp that does not participate. It would have to be done in the very first stages though.
For a major update to the game its very disappointing that there isn't something for everyone. And as for the Holding 0.0 Space and building super capital ships, its obvious that there wouldn't be any other way to go about it. If one person owned a 0.0 system they would be over thrown by an alliance anyway. |
Gridwalker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:15:00 -
[18]
I have no idea why the fanboi's are so vehement in their condemnations about people who are a bit annoyed that they need to leave their corps to participate in faction warfare.
In one of the Ten Ton Hammer interviews, one of the things developer Matt Woodward said was "We're trying very much to not break up existing social groups."
Yet certain design decisions--namely not allowing alliances join, not allowing corps in alliances to join, and not allowing individuals who are in corporations join--does exactly that.
It just seems like a pretty lame war when the empires turn their noses up on willing, high-standing capsuleers just because they happen to also work for high-standing corporations.
The only reason I can think that some people are so vehemently against people like me joining, is because they want faction warfare all to themselves.
And yes, I have read CCP Ginger's comments on the matter, and I find all of his arguments to be rather weak, contrived, and even somewhat insulting.
No matter. Faction Warfare is here. It's going to either sink or swim. I know a lot of people are going to die, which is certainly a good thing. I just hope it works out how CCP planned, instead of just being a massive gank fest where the only people who are organized are the pirates and the alliances which are right now claiming moons. ;-)
-Grid
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Trocent
One of the Dev blogs about joining the faction wars did not state anything about leaving a corperation to join the faction wars. Thats why I am all ticked off.
It took me a whopping ten seconds to find this:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Signing up as an individual
The administrative core of each Militia is a specialist NPC corporation. If you're just interested in signing up on your lonesome, this is the corporation you'll need to get into. (...) Either way, if you meet the requirements you'll be moved into the NPC corporation and become part of Factional Warfare.
That's written by CCP Greyscale in a dev blog called "empyrean age and all that - signing up".
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:49:00 -
[20]
The only word there even suggesting that you can't be in a corperation is the word Lonesome. And that could come off meaning anything. The Weblog should have stated clearly that you can not be in a player run corperation. I was looking through that weblog good and hard and when I came to:
Quote:
In order to sign up as an individual, you need to meet a couple of criteria. Firstly you must not be on a trial account. Secondly, you have to have a faction standing from that faction of 0.5 or higher. It's intentionally a very low barrier to entry, as the Empires aren't being too choosy right now! Thirdly, you must not have previously signed up to a Militia in the last 24 hours, to prevent people yo-yoing in and out of Militias.
Three things listed. Not one saying that you can not be in a militia.
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Vladimir Titov
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:06:00 -
[21]
Actually it would be neat if the militia's worked like RL militia's. For instance here in the US you can join the National Guard and you don't have to quit your job, you just have to report for duty 2 weekends/month. At least thats what they say in the ads. |
Ecky X
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:08:00 -
[22]
I don't get it. So you want to go to war. You either have the choice to go by yourself, or with your corp. Your corp doesn't want to... but you're not willing to go alone.
Either convince your corp, or leave it. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:17:00 -
[23]
How does it make sense that you go to war but your corp does not? So following this logic I can declare war on you and only you and your corp/alliance cannot help you or else they get concorded. Because the rest of my corp doesn't want to be in on my holy war against just you so it should be allowed, right?
It's war. You shouldn't be able to just join in for a few hours and then leave right away. Either commit or gtfo. |
Chinger
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vladimir Titov
Actually it would be neat if the militia's worked like RL militia's. For instance here in the US you can join the National Guard and you don't have to quit your job, you just have to report for duty 2 weekends/month. At least thats what they say in the ads.
True enough, but when you are actually called to serve in a combat zone far away, you have to, at the least, put your prior job on hold, essentialy "quiting" it for the length of your service. |
cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:10:00 -
[25]
A corporation is not a guild. You are not independent of your corporation. If your corporation is at war, you are at war, and if your corporation is not at war, you are not at war. Simple as that. To join a war, whatever corporation you happen to be in must also be in that war. |
Esu Nahalas
The Night Corporation
RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vladimir Titov
Actually it would be neat if the militia's worked like RL militia's. For instance here in the US you can join the National Guard and you don't have to quit your job, you just have to report for duty 2 weekends/month. At least thats what they say in the ads.
Not to turn this into a Second Amendment thread, but the Founding Fathers did not intend "militia" to mean "some people who show up 2 weekends/month." FW is the same way, you're in, or you're out.
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Oktacon
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
How does it make sense that you go to war but your corp does not? So following this logic I can declare war on you and only you and your corp/alliance cannot help you or else they get concorded. Because the rest of my corp doesn't want to be in on my holy war against just you so it should be allowed, right?
It's war. You shouldn't be able to just join in for a few hours and then leave right away. Either commit or gtfo.
Your post made no sense. Why CAN'T I fight without leaving my corp? It makes sense that I should be able to fight by myself without dragging my corp in because I'm as an individual player is joining. Just because I belong to a corp of Empire Carebears doesn't mean I can't go into lowsec for solo hunting. Just because I belong to a 00 Corp shouldn't mean I should get locked out of a new feature, just because my corp doesn't want to. A corp does NOT make you a permanent limb of that corp. Its your own damn choice what you want to do. Its just that usually, people choose to follow their corps. But this is one time where I don't want to just go along with my corp.
The very fact that I can't join FW when I'm in a corp that isn't going to doesn't make sense. I was planning to have a Clone in 00 and a Clone in empire so I can jump back and forth. I LIKE 00, but when I heard about FW, I was excited. PVP without dictor bubbles every 2 jumps, capital ship blobs, and alot of annoying things about 00. But I can't join because my corp won't join? I'm not even going a different direction from my alliance. FW is just a side outlet for me. I'll still actively partake in 00 warfare, but why not be able to have fun in empire?
A corp shouldnt be able to hold you back from enjoying what you want to do. I don't want to leave my corp. They're fine with FW as long as it doesnt interfere with normal Allaince ops.
CCP, I urge you to reconsider this. Many people are being locked out of a huge part of the game now, just because they belong to a corp.
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Italian Wedding
Soup Of The Day
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:49:00 -
[28]
You can just do what a bunch of others are doing. Don't join a side and just camp bunkers luling at the militia corps as they try to kill you in 20 man frig fleets with the occasional cruiser and battle cruiser. That's all it is at this point in time, organized pirate corps not even in the war camping control bunkers.
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Haas Tabris
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:55:00 -
[29]
agreed with the OP completely. another boneheaded move by ccp for reasons unknow. launch an expansion that causes pain for a lot of your players. sigh.
i'm spending the evening grinding standing with an alt (an alt on this same account - no frakin' way i'm gonna pay for a 2nd account). again, sigh.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:00:00 -
[30]
This isn't about me joining the war one second and leaving the other. And its not about a choice between being with my corp or being with the war. It should be obvious that Im not going to leave my corp for the war, Thats why I wrote this thread. Corperations shouldn't be split up just because one person wants to join the war and the corperation doesn't. Nore should it be split up because the Corperation wants to join the war and a few of the members don't want to.
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
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uhrslart
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:52:00 -
[31]
As a small 3-people-corp (not one person with 3Alts ;-) ) we would have to trash the corp so that one guy can join FW and the other 2 can still do there trading without interference, which is not a good option, but i guess that is what will happen. FW ignores and in our case destroys small corps / gives them no soft migration option and just favours lone wolf players or 100% dedicated FW corps...but no space in between - would be nice to have some in a future update...
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KingOzar
Brute Strength
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:03:00 -
[32]
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
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Jmanis Catharg
Stickler inc
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:03:00 -
[33]
Quote:
we would have to trash the corp so that one guy can join FW and the other 2 can still do there trading without interference, which is not a good option, but i guess that is what will happen. FW ignores and in our case destroys small corps
Why does it do that? If you have two trading guys who want to trade "without interference" and a third wants FW, what interaction has to continue between those three players? I certainly can't think of much that can't be arranged through contracting items to the other two players back in corp.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:24:00 -
[34]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 11/06/2008 05:26:29
Originally by: Vladimir Titov
Actually it would be neat if the militia's worked like RL militia's. For instance here in the US you can join the National Guard and you don't have to quit your job, you just have to report for duty 2 weekends/month. At least thats what they say in the ads.
So what if your in your corp and your at war with another corp and you get into a fleet battle and the guy your CEO calls primary is in your militia and if you shoot him you take a .5 standing hit and get kicked out of FW?
really this is the only reason.
along same lines what if someone in your corp is of an enemy militia? now your at war with other people in your corp and you'll have to shoot them if you want to will and to get kills.
another issue invite new payer that is in enemy militia to join your corp, kill him for free.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:35:00 -
[35]
why would you waste your time with factional warfare
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Trocent
The only word there even suggesting that you can't be in a corperation is the word Lonesome. And that could come off meaning anything. The Weblog should have stated clearly that you can not be in a player run corperation. I was looking through that weblog good and hard and when I came to:
Quote:
In order to sign up as an individual, you need to meet a couple of criteria. Firstly you must not be on a trial account. Secondly, you have to have a faction standing from that faction of 0.5 or higher. It's intentionally a very low barrier to entry, as the Empires aren't being too choosy right now! Thirdly, you must not have previously signed up to a Militia in the last 24 hours, to prevent people yo-yoing in and out of Militias.
Three things listed. Not one saying that you can not be in a militia.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Signing up as an individual
The administrative core of each Militia is a specialist NPC corporation. If you're just interested in signing up on your lonesome, this is the corporation you'll need to get into. (...) Either way, if you meet the requirements you'll be moved into the NPC corporation and become part of Factional Warfare.
Read what I underlined. It say very clearly that you will be moved in the NPC corporation.
If you are in a NPC corporation you can't be in a PC corporation at the same time. Ergo you need to leave your PC corporation to join the militia as a single player.
There is a special dispensation for whole Corporations signing ups, but not for individuals within a player corporation. And that is only right as I can see severals exploits with wardec and militia gangs if that was possible, beside problems like having 2 players in the same corporation at war between them as they are in different corporations.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:04:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Trocent
Corperations shouldn't be split up just because one person wants to join the war and the corperation doesn't. Nore should it be split up because the Corperation wants to join the war and a few of the members don't want to.
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
I already explained it to you. If your mechanics were in then I could declare war on solo individuals or pick out the carebears of a corp and ONLY declare war on them. I've been to a lot of planets in EVE and on none of them can part of a group declare war on someone. It's either the entire group or none at all. What you describe is ridiculous lunacy that doesn't make any sense.
Secondly, if you want to fight in a war and your corporation doesn't, that is a PERFECT reason why you should split from your corp. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Trocent
This isn't about me joining the war one second and leaving the other. And its not about a choice between being with my corp or being with the war. It should be obvious that Im not going to leave my corp for the war, Thats why I wrote this thread. Corperations shouldn't be split up just because one person wants to join the war and the corperation doesn't. Nore should it be split up because the Corperation wants to join the war and a few of the members don't want to.
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason? And maybe members of the some alliance at war with other members?
There are very valid reasons why you could join only as a single individual in the NPC corporation or as a whole corporation, not piecemeal.
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KingOzar
Brute Strength
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: KingOzar
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
^^^This guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Why don't you think about it a little bit? |
50freefly
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Trocent
Im wishing that I didn't reregister to the game now.
I agree, you should cancel your sub RIGHT NOW to protest this clearly unfair action on the part of CCP. |
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Sicil Fioet
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:19:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Sicil Fioet on 11/06/2008 06:19:27
There are several activities in the game that you cannot get involved in at the same time due to how the game works, so you are put before a choice. And making this choice if you can't abandon the former to do the later you don't get mad. You get alts :)
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: KingOzar
This update is for RP. It's not for some noobs who want to have a good time. It's an update several of us have been waiting for, a way to actually get into the RP side of the game. It is not directed to the general populous.
Then why are the RPing Alliances are being left out? What if I RP but my corp does not?
Originally by: Vaal Erit
I already explained it to you. If your mechanics were in then I could declare war on solo individuals or pick out the carebears of a corp and ONLY declare war on them. I've been to a lot of planets in EVE and on none of them can part of a group declare war on someone. It's either the entire group or none at all. What you describe is ridiculous lunacy that doesn't make any sense.
Secondly, if you want to fight in a war and your corporation doesn't, that is a PERFECT reason why you should split from your corp.
What are you talking about. Individuals not in a player run corperation can already be allowed in. If an individual joins the faction wars they aren't going to war with just one person.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason?
So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger.
Originally by: 50freefly
I agree, you should cancel your sub RIGHT NOW to protest this clearly unfair action on the part of CCP.
Clever. I bet you'll want my stuff. Your input was greatly appreciated.
----
Anyway, most of you are missing the point. The restriction does not need to be there. The only thing that would change if CCP allowed people to join the war without leaving their corp would be that more people would be happy about the update.
If this wont change than I sure hope CCP wont allow corperations as a whole to join the war. It would make sense afterall. Pirates are the most organised PvPers in the game next to maybe those holding 0.0 space. At least disallowing corperations would break up their ability to remain organised ^.~ |
Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pyrochasm
Where would one travel if looking to shoot at traitorous minmatar/gallente without having to quit the current corporation?
Low-sec. |
Shanur
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:09:00 -
[44]
Why do you want to remain in a corp that does not want to play the game the same way you do anyway? The sole benefit of a corp is that you get to do things together. If they do not want to do FW, i'd consider that a mismatch between your and your corp's goals.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:14:00 -
[45]
thanks for ignoring my post.
what happens when one of your allies is primaried?
hell half of the corp you've declared war on is also ON YOUR SIDE, THIS IS A PROBLEM.
you're basically asking why players can't join more than one corporation at the same time. |
Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:15:00 -
[46]
You argue that you as an individual can go into lowsec and shoot at passers-by without involving your corporation. That is generally not true, however.
Your corporation will most likely be marked red by the people you attack. If they are in NPC corporations, you take a standings hit to those corporations. Which means that your corporation also takes a standings hit, since you feed into the corporate standings. At least you will now, since you have been shooting at NPC corp members.
In Eve, there is very much guilt by association. The actions of one member reflects on the corporation as a whole, as far as the factions go. And this is how it has always been.
You are not entitled to enjoy every part of the game. You are entitled to enjoy the parts of the game that your choices make available to you. Your path through Eve is unique, but can intersect with the paths of anyone else, depending on what branches you walk down.
And as pointed out above, Greyscale specifically mentioned moving to an NPC corporation when signing up as an individual. It was documented, but it was part of the fine print you skipped over in your excitement. Many others have whined about it, but at the end of the day it was decided as the best way to introduce it. They chose a proven in-game mechanic rather than introducing something that would most likely break upon deployment and then be broken by players later on as we learn to play the system in new and interesting ways that cause the community in general to pull their hair out at the ten threads an hour created to whine about it.
The limitations are not what we expected six months ago, no. But I understand why they did it the way they did it, and I approve of it on those terms. Socially, it is not optimal, but mechanically it was probably the best choice. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:19:00 -
[47]
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Trocent
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
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Danae Melios
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:30:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Trocent
I want to be with my corp. We do plenty of things together I like. Some of them don't want to be involved. I do. I want to be in the faction war and be in the same corperation.
And I want a toilet made of gold, but that's just not in the cards now, is it?
Eve has always been about choices, and not all of them are easy or nice. You go down one path, you can't go down another at the same time.
Really, though, just ensure you don't have rights and use your corp's public channel, and you can hop back and forth between the two with no problems, and even keep chatting with them the whole time. Do a few corp ops, go fight with the militia, and then hop back to your corp.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: MotherMoon
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
And Im assuming english isn't yours. Anyway, so corps wont be able to declare war on other corps in the faction war? So I guess if my corp gets wardecced by a corp in the caldari militia, I will just get the corp to join that same militia just for a day. Sweet. No more war for my corp. CCP probably already thought of an exploit like that and made Corp to Corp wars take priority over faction war. So the two corps in the same factionwar can still attack eachother without standing loss.
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Misanth
Electro Fuels
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:42:00 -
[51]
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: MotherMoon
By involving your self your fleet ops will have to memories who in the corps they declare war on have to set to blue of which plaers in your corp are at war wth who.
half your corp won't be able to fire on half the other fleet. but the other half will bu not on the others.
In others words you want to make fighting any wars HELL for EVERYONE in your corporation. sure you can shoot each other like always that's not the issue the point is you have to fire on other corps who also have members in Factional warfare.
To join FW you have to join a corp not a faction. It's an NPC corp but still, eve doesn't support a DUAL WAR SYSTEM.
yes? no?
really? I'm just going to assume logic isn't your strong point.
And Im assuming english isn't yours. Anyway, so corps wont be able to declare war on other corps in the faction war? So I guess if my corp gets wardecced by a corp in the caldari militia, I will just get the corp to join that same militia just for a day. Sweet. No more war for my corp. CCP probably already thought of an exploit like that and made Corp to Corp wars take priority over faction war. So the two corps in the same factionwar can still attack eachother without standing loss.
oh sorry for a few typos.
anyways that doesn't work either.
If they make it so that player corp wars overwrite factional war you can declare war on a corp in FW, then as a corp not in FW all sign up one by one for the same side as the corp you wardeced.
Now you go into high sec where you won't be shot but your side NPCs or concord and you start to grief players.
Also I wasn't talking about you declaring war on a corp in FW I was talking about every time any corp declares war on aother corp both sides would have all four factions in their ranks, meaning that either A. factional warfare takes over and you can't shoot half the corp you deced, or
B.the corp war takes over and now when you want to take part in Factional warfare and not your corps war you'll join a factional warfare gang and you'll be able to shoot militia members without taking a standings lost. which would be an exploit because you could declare war on a corp knowing they have members in a militia and then you could kill players in highsec without standings loss.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
wh=at are you talking about you can fight for ammar if you join caldari.
go to ammar low sec space.
go to contested area.
gang with ammar pilots.
Take over points, now sure your with the caldari navy but your on the minatar/ammar side of space so even if your the only one it captures in the name of the ammar.
you can shoot minmatar players freely.
you can't enter minmatar highsec.
honestly you can only sign up of one of two sides.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
Um... Caldari and Amarr are on the same side. True fact. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 07:56:00 -
[55]
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is. |
Jakus Cemendur
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is.
People have already explained why it is the way it is. It is completely illogical to allow individuals to sign up for FW without leaving their corps, as you'd end up with loads o peple in the same corp at war with each other. Now I know you think that's fine, but for me that makes no sense. You're in a corp and should be working together, not fighting for different sides in an intergalactic war. It would be the equivalent of 2 corps within an alliances going to war with each other whilst staying part of the alliance. If that happened one or the other would have to leave the alliance to set the other one red. So why with FW should you be allowed to be in a corp with people you are at war with? |
Misanth
Electro Fuels
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Misanth
It's stupid, yes. My corp signed up for Caldari and I want to fight for Amarr. So I'm stuck in either Amarr space running missions, or in 0.0, if I stay in my corp. Or I have to leave them, just to fight in low-sec.
Say what you want but Caldari is filthy shieldtanking slimy iskfarming scum. My laz0rs are the cure to the plague they are. It only makes sense to have Amarr launch attacks against Caldari and Minmatar, and side with Gallente.
..and if we get enough war targets in my area, as I'm alone here while my corp fight it out in low-sec, I might be forced to leave my friends/corp to not get popped by anti-Caldari FW troops in my area.
Really crappy design CCP, forcing people out of their corps.
wh=at are you talking about you can fight for ammar if you join caldari.
go to ammar low sec space.
go to contested area.
gang with ammar pilots.
Take over points, now sure your with the caldari navy but your on the minatar/ammar side of space so even if your the only one it captures in the name of the ammar.
you can shoot minmatar players freely.
you can't enter minmatar highsec.
honestly you can only sign up of one of two sides.
* My corpmates are running missions for Caldari, not Amarr, and Misanth hates Caldari. So I'm refusing to fight for them and with them. It brings the corp to -1 player and puts me alone vs war targets the corp signed for.
* I can't run missions for Amarr militia.
* I can't get standing up with Amarr, without leaving my corp.
This system as it works is splitting corps apart. We already had one guy leaving the corp today to fight with Gallente, the corp is signed up for Caldari and thus I refuse to fight with them, and I know another guy that won't fight as well.
Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably. Here's how the FW should've been done:
- 4 way fighting. All factions against eachother, you chose who you fight or not. Sign for Amarr and you can chose to fight (or not to) the others. If you don't fight them you won't lose standings. As long as you got a positive standing with another faction they won't consider you a WT. That way I can side with Gallente and fight Minmatar and Caldari when I'm Amarr.
- Allow people to sign individually without leaving their corps. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon. I've having difficulty understanding what you are saying. I dont see how that would relate to this thread. This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only work around for this situation it to split the Corperation in two, one for the faction war and one without. But still that splits the corperation and we don't want that. The more I think about this the more I dislike this patch.
I still haven't head any legit reason why signing up is the way it is.
You really don't get it? damn it corps going to war has EVERYTHING to do with why they aren't allowing it.
Quote:
This is about allowing individuals joining the faction wars. Not Corps going to war.
The only way it would work would be if one single member of a corporation was in Factional warfare that corp could no longer declare war on any other corp if they had at least one members in factional warfare.
Think of it this way what if you could join both sides of a war dec, it wouldn't work, factional warfare gives you the right to shoot people right? and takes away the right. Which mean .,...
OK NEVER MIND BETTER IDEA!
Go into 0.0 space, have your corporation fly with an alliance gang. Now while your flying in 0.0 with your alliance fleet, you come across a allaince that has you set to red! So they open fire! you call for backup, but the alliance your flying with has them set to blue, so they can't fire on them without risking getting set to red as well. So the FC has to figure out what to do, tells half the fleet to warp away while the other hlaf of the fleet can't protect your corp.
another good test is when two blue allainces fly together that have another allaince set red and the other allaince has them set blue.
So when they get into the fight a the FC calls out! attack the interdictor, but half of the fleet goes "sorry sir those guys are blue to us we can't fire on them"
it's PURE LOGISTICAL HELL.
if you were ever involved in 0.0 warfare you would understand why you can't join multiple organizations.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Misanth
Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably.
... but yet he apparently wants to stay with his corp who are all gung- ho about signing up for caldari. 
Yeah, I see some RP fail here.
___________________________________________
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Jakus Cemendur
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Jakus Cemendur on 11/06/2008 08:22:39
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon, if a corperate war overrides the faction war then you'll just fight the corperation your at war with, even if they were on the same faction side. Thats not very difficult.
But then what's the point of being in FW if you're just going to shoot your fellow militia? I'm frankly glad CCP have done what they have done as it's a much more logical system than the one you're proposing which basically is you just trying to make it so you can do everything you want to without making choices.
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Misanth
Electro Fuels
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: Misanth
Why the hell would I hate Caldari. Misanth hates them. Wasn't this the RP patch? It fails miserably.
... but yet he apparently wants to stay with his corp who are all gung- ho about signing up for caldari.
Yeah, I see some RP fail here.
I refuse to fight with them, simply put. I'm not a pure roleplayer, then I'd join one of the existing Amarr-only corps and problem was solved. Most of my gametime is dedicated to fly with people I like.
My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot.
* I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari.
* I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier.
* I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call.
The whole MMO-aspect dies, the whole FW-aspect (I can't fight for the faction I chose) dies. It's just ******** on so many points.
If my corp could've signed up as individuals and all still stay in the corp, it would've made things alot better. Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr. They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem. If we could've signed individually this would never have been an issue.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:28:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Trocent
MotherMoon, if a corperate war overrides the faction war then you'll just fight the corperation your at war with, even if they were on the same faction side. Thats not very difficult.
But what happens when your at war but your not fighting with your corp?
instead of your fighting with your second corp in FW, now you have the same issue but backwards.
You'll be in a gang and some of your mates in your fleet will be at war with you out side of factional warfare. This mean you'll be able to attacking them without the standings loss put in place to kick people out of factional warfare or shooting their own men.
Once again why not just go get yourself set to blue with the militia corp and fight with them? you don't need to be in FW to fight with them or even to share the rewards from FW missions.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:29:00 -
[63]
Quote:
* I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier.
* I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call.
well you'll have the ammar militia you are allied with them by being signed up for FW.
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Acrea
Southern Cross Incorporated
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:30:00 -
[64]
It's RP right? So keeping in character... If your corp signed up for the guys you dont like or wont support the people you like, what would your in character response be? Wether it be ic or ooc, just sitting and moaning about what the gods/devs decided on doesnt change anything. Things are as they are and complaining will not resolve anything. Adapt or ignore.
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Astria Tiphareth
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:38:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 11/06/2008 08:40:49
Originally by: MotherMoon
Once again why not just go get yourself set to blue with the militia corp and fight with them? you don't need to be in FW to fight with them or even to share the rewards from FW missions.
Partially true. I don't think the security status system takes this into account though. As you probably know, normally combat actions in low-sec mean the initiator gets a sec status hit with CONCORD. Militia - militia combat will not. I don't think this will apply to the above scenario though.
Edit: An interesting one to take up in the features & suggestions forum though... After all if the militia have fleeted you, they must trust you (or be stupid)...
In addition, though not strictly on-topic, on the subject of corp wars, CONCORD have changed how they respond in this patch to fleeted war members. If you are in a fleet and someone else in that fleet is at war, you are no longer a legitimate war target. You firing on their enemies or vice-versa will bring down CONCORD in high-sec. This means those corps at war in the militia can fight their war but the other militia present aren 't involved. |
Ordon Gundar
Kingfisher Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:45:00 -
[66]
Roll a combat alt. Send it some cash from your main. Kit it out. Gain the standing. Join up. FIGHT!!
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Astria Tiphareth
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:47:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Misanth
Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr.
So you enjoy roleplaying to an extent but your corp does not? Seems a bit odd to have joined them, with respect. However, your call not mine.
Originally by: Misanth
They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem.
If their intention was to sign for Amarr, then why haven't they been supporting the Amarr? That is the only reason standings would be low - if they've been out shooting at Amarr ships. If they are so shallow as to sign right now for a faction they didn't intend to support, rather than accepting they may need to grind standings a little, then they surely aren't in this for the roleplay.
Secondly, Caldari and Amarr are allies, so I have every expectation of seeing Caldari fleets attacking Minmatar strongholds and Amarr fleets attacking Gallente Strongholds. |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Misanth
I refuse to fight with them, simply put. I'm not a pure roleplayer, then I'd join one of the existing Amarr-only corps and problem was solved. Most of my gametime is dedicated to fly with people I like.
My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot.
* I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari.
* I can't fight for Amarr, as posted earlier.
* I'm left alone at whateverplace, while being a WT as my corp is part of FW, with no friends nearby to call.
The whole MMO-aspect dies, the whole FW-aspect (I can't fight for the faction I chose) dies. It's just ******** on so many points.
If my corp could've signed up as individuals and all still stay in the corp, it would've made things alot better. Most of them "just want pewpew", while my reason to fight in FW is to get the ranks and fight for Amarr. They signed up for Caldari as our corp standing was too low for Amarr, their intention was to sign for Amarr. There, right there is the problem. If we could've signed individually this would never have been an issue.
Oh, OK, lemme get this straight:
You don't RP ALL the time, just SOME of the time -- mainly at those times when it's most likely to turn out to be a complete pain in the ass for you or rather just when it's INCONVENIENT for you to do so.
And luckily you've helped yourself out in that dept. by generating this one- dimensional, wooden character who basically doesn't do much but sit around, hate Caldari people and assiduously avoid situations where he might even possibly have to make a difficult decision or overcome anything resembling a mildly challenging problem.
In fact this character of yours is so amazingly dead- set against experiencing any of the internal or external conflicts which usually serve to promote growth of some sort (known in The Biz(tm) as "development" and in other places as "interestingness" or maybe even "depth") that this game mechanic combined with the fact that your corp's sloth runs to such depths that they can't even be arsed to grind out a measly 0.5 means that all immersion is now completely broken for you and in fact the RP end of the game is now utter ****.
You're not so attached to RP that you can be bothered to figure out how your character might come to terms with a *gasp!* complicated state of affairs, but you are attached to it just enough that you'll now sit around and pout about it for days.
I'll say this for your character: he's realistic. I've known tons of people (a lot of them on the internet, amusingly) who manage to blunder through life in such a haphazard and cowardly fashion. But you know what? Reality makes for crappy fiction. Your character sir has no balls and I really can't bring myself to generate much sympathy for him. |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:40:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Trocent
The only word there even suggesting that you can't be in a corperation is the word Lonesome. And that could come off meaning anything. The Weblog should have stated clearly that you can not be in a player run corperation. I was looking through that weblog good and hard and when I came to:
Quote:
In order to sign up as an individual, you need to meet a couple of criteria. Firstly you must not be on a trial account. Secondly, you have to have a faction standing from that faction of 0.5 or higher. It's intentionally a very low barrier to entry, as the Empires aren't being too choosy right now! Thirdly, you must not have previously signed up to a Militia in the last 24 hours, to prevent people yo-yoing in and out of Militias.
Three things listed. Not one saying that you can not be in a militia.
"if you meet the requirements you'll be moved into the NPC corporation" |
Major Death
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.11 10:12:00 -
[70]
Quote:
you can shoot minmatar players freely.
you can't enter minmatar highsec
Almost correct, except you take Sec hits which will mean you cannot enter high sec.
My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;)
CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!' |
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ShadowMaiden
Metal Machine
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Posted - 2008.06.11 10:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Doc Fury
Edited by: Doc Fury on 10/06/2008 23:29:22
If there was a War against your Country (in RL) and you chose to enlist in the military, you'd have to quit your present job (corporation) to do so.
Not 100% Accurate - In the UK you can serve as a reservist; if you are subject to compulsary deployment, your Civillian job is protected in law, so it's their when you get back. You're still actually employed but on unpaid leave for the duration of your deployment. |
Chiefs Fan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.11 10:44:00 -
[72]
dont you guys see the solution? just break off into a seperate group that wants to join the fw. make your own "corp" join the fw, and set your old corp to a nap standing and set up a private channel where you all can chat. also keep an alt in the other main corp if you feel like it. you can even share intel from the opposite militias if you join both sides.
yes it sucks cause if you all dont wanna join up together youre losing corp hangers and all that but like i said, split off and clone your corp and use naps and similar/minion corp name.
even irl a family grows and the kids split off and make families of their own. you still have the ability to keep in touch. just be creative.
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Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.11 10:52:00 -
[73]
Commitment is a rare deed nowadays 
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Vivisacia
Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.06.11 11:43:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Vivisacia on 11/06/2008 11:43:24
Originally by: Misanth
My issue here is that while they are in low sec doing their business for Caldari, I'm left alone somewhere else. I'm losing out on alot.
* I can't PvP with them as I refuse to fight for Caldari.
Don't you mean you won't PvP with them, as you refuse to fight for Caldari?
You CAN PvP with them, you just choose not to.
Cadlari? FW? Alt? |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 16:53:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason?
So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger.
So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him?
Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out.
And I am sure your alliance (it you are in one) will appreciate you firing on the Gallente and Minmatar players in the alliance and then justifying "they are in the enemy militia". |
Resamo
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Posted - 2008.06.11 17:06:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Do you find having 4 members of the same corporation joining 4 different militias and being at war within the same corporation a good reason?
So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to shoot members of our own corperation then? Nothing will change if people from the same corperation join different sides. So they fight and someone will die, its not any different then if they were fighting another stranger.
So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him?
Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out.
And I am sure your alliance (it you are in one) will appreciate you firing on the Gallente and Minmatar players in the alliance and then justifying "they are in the enemy militia".
An all encompasing war destroying communits and friends... thats crazy talk!
If you want in on the faction war you have to be in all of it you cant just pick and choose what you like about it. No one goes to 0.0 to mine asuming they can choose not go get shot.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:51:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him?
Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out.
Firing on your own corp mates really depends on whether or not your corp allows it. I've been in one where they killed eachother onsite. If your corp doesn't allow it you simple don't do it.
If there are people in the same corp who are in the different militia then it would be a corp decision on how to engage your corp mates. It wouldn't be hard to just say that you can only attack one another if you are in a mission opposing eachother. Aside from that you just don't fire on eachother. Its really not hard.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Resamo
An all encompasing war destroying communits and friends... thats crazy talk!
If you want in on the faction war you have to be in all of it you cant just pick and choose what you like about it. No one goes to 0.0 to mine asuming they can choose not go get shot.
Who says we wont be all in? I don't want to join so I can sit around and throw flowers at people. I want to get into the war so I can fight other people. Do the new missions designed for the game. I want to eventually lose ships and get pod killed if I really screw up.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:04:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So you think your corp will find normal and acceptable that you kill your Minmatar corpmate as soon as you meet him?
Very strange corporation. You can be sure that in mine you will be kicked out.
Firing on your own corp mates really depends on whether or not your corp allows it. I've been in one where they killed eachother onsite. If your corp doesn't allow it you simple don't do it.
If there are people in the same corp who are in the different militia then it would be a corp decision on how to engage your corp mates. It wouldn't be hard to just say that you can only attack one another if you are in a mission opposing eachother. Aside from that you just don't fire on eachother. Its really not hard.
And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"?
Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable?
Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:00:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"?
Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable?
Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it.
I clearly stated that you have the choice not to fight a corp mate unless your both in the mission and on opposite sides. Well really, you have the option at any time. You have the Option to not fire on any enemy for no real reason. You can go AFK in the middle of battle. There really isn't much difference.
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Jakke Logan
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:16:00 -
[81]
This point was brought up and hammered at the devs to no avail. They wouldn't listen to a damn thing.
And it (plus the alliance ban issue) will need resolving if FW is to ever be a significant system in the game.
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Omanji
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:22:00 -
[82]
Seriously? Don't you guys realize this is kind of lazy programing by CCP? They didn't actually make a whole new format for the FW for individuals, all they made was a NPC Corp. Really? No one at CCP had a better idea? They put all this work into FW and they had a case of lackluster follow through on the player side? Maybe if CCP didn't half ass things, this problem wouldn't exist.
So, Yes, Give CCP ****, they made a great game but they are still prone to screwing up from time to time (Learning Skills).
Oh
P.S. Let's go for constructive criticism. No, "Quit the game then" or "Devs knows best!". If you want to constantly repeat CCP mantra, join a cult. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: Venkul Mul
And how honest is that on other people that gang with you in a militia complex, when you start saying "I don't want to engage X, he is a friend"?
Or you will always tell them "Beware, if I meet a corpmate in low sec, even if he is in a enemy militia, I will not help you"? And it that was your rule, why someone should gang with you as you will be unreliable?
Essentially you want to enter FW but not commit to it.
I clearly stated that you have the choice not to fight a corp mate unless your both in the mission and on opposite sides. Well really, you have the option at any time. You have the Option to not fire on any enemy for no real reason. You can go AFK in the middle of battle. There really isn't much difference.
still ignoring what would happen to your war targets in the faction corp I see.
WHY should corp wars overpower faction corp roles when the faction corp is A CORPERATION. |
Bel Amar
Interslice Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:27:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Trocent
I want to either know a very good reason why the mechanics to join the Faction war were designed this way and if there is any hope that the mechanics to join will change to allow more players participate.
As the rules currently stand, the only way someone in an alliance can join FW is if they or their corp leaves the alliance and joins FW. Whether or not you agree with it, CCP stopped alliances joining in FW, because it didn't want them to dominate it. They wanted to aim it at high sec people who otherwise might not get involved with PvP.
Your suggestion would let people stay in their alliances without any penalty, and thus still end up dominating FW. That is your very good reason as to why the rules were designed the way they are, whether or not you agree with them
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Gridwalker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:53:00 -
[85]
All of these points that are being brought up are good ones, but there is also quite a bit of pointless rhetoric. For example, the whole "choice" thing. Faction Warfare offers an illusion of choice, when in fact it removes it. If I, as an individual, decide that I want to join a militia and later run across a war target in my same militia, THAT is a choice.
By preventing me from joining a militia, the truly hard choices are taken away from me. What do I do when a war target is in my militia? Do I attack and lose standing with my militia? Do I refuse to attack and get kicked out of my corporation? THAT is a choice.
In alliance warfare, people are often forced to make choices like that already! You can easily find yourself in a situation where a corporation you are at war with is in an alliance you technically have a nap with. I've seen it, and seen it dealt with.
Even in the real world, war is often very far from cut and dry. In the US Civil War, it was not unheard of for BROTHERS to find themselves on the same battlefield on opposing sides. Even in modern day wars, you can find groups who fight under the same banner but are in fact in opposition of each other.
The word "militia" isn't even being used correctly in FW. It is being treated like a branch of military service, when the word truly refers to citizen soldiers. A militia is a group of civilians who take up arms for a country or cause, not professional soldiers under the direct employ of a country or nation.
My point is, in an effort to make things easy on themselves and simple to model, CCP took the easy way out and tried to redefine war as a clean and straightforward affair. They obviously have some sort of old view of war, where everyone gathers in a field at a predetermined time wearing brightly colored clothing, form orderly lines, and shoot at each other on command while ladies and gentlemen watch, while sipping tea and eating pastries on a nearby hill.
That isn't war in EVE. War is complex, dirty, and inconvenient. Modern war can happen anywhere, at any time, and it is often difficult to determine who your real enemies are.
-Grid
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:01:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Omanji
Seriously? Don't you guys realize this is kind of lazy programing by CCP? They didn't actually make a whole new format for the FW for individuals, all they made was a NPC Corp. Really? No one at CCP had a better idea? They put all this work into FW and they had a case of lackluster follow through on the player side? Maybe if CCP didn't half ass things, this problem wouldn't exist.
So, Yes, Give CCP ****, they made a great game but they are still prone to screwing up from time to time (Learning Skills).
Oh
P.S. Let's go for constructive criticism. No, "Quit the game then" or "Devs knows best!". If you want to constantly repeat CCP mantra, join a cult.
Well, OK. It's because they "half- assed" it. Some things to consider:
1. Maybe generating a whole new system that would allow for dual membership didn't fit budget/ time constraints this time out.
2. Maybe they thought it would be better to sort out the internal mechanisms before piling an extra mechanic like that on top of it. If you think about it, the current signup mechanisms seem well- suited to attracting a statistically significant but not overwhelming pool of initial participants. I can't guarantee that that's what they were thinking, but it makes sense to me. They've already said they plan to expand it, maybe dual memberships will come later.
3. Eve already has a crapton of major career activities and all of them contribute to the overall economy/ ecosystem. It would definitely be a Bad Thing(tm) if any one of them garnered say 50+% of the playerbase.
4. Dual membership means more db queries for an already insanely complicated aggression mechanic in empire space. If CCP won't let asset search look in cans what makes you think they're going to go for that?
And finally, while it's true that CCP hasn't come forward with a "good reason" why it should be this way vis a vis corporations and dual memberships; neither have I yet seen a good reason why it should be allowed other than "I want to have my cake and eat it too," which isn't a good reason at all IMO. Either one seems to me like a valid way to do it and all other things being equal were I in the devs' position I'd probably choose to err on the side of simplicity. |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:17:00 -
[87]
Originally by: MotherMoon
still ignoring what would happen to your war targets in the faction corp I see.
WHY should corp wars overpower faction corp roles when the faction corp is A CORPERATION.
So whats going to happen when two corperations on the same side of the faction war are at war? There needs to be something already implemented to cover that issue.
Originally by: Bel Amar
Your suggestion would let people stay in their alliances without any penalty, and thus still end up dominating FW. That is your very good reason as to why the rules were designed the way they are, whether or not you agree with them
Im not arguing the Alliance point. I do think its a rather poor choice that all the Roleplaying Alliances get the shaft but my problem is with taking the effort to exclude those who are in regular corperations. I am under the impression that CCP didn't want to nerf corperation but thats exactly what they did. |
Omanji
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:18:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
1. Maybe generating a whole new system that would allow for dual membership didn't fit budget/ time constraints this time out.
2. Maybe they thought it would be better to sort out the internal mechanisms before piling an extra mechanic like that on top of it. If you think about it, the current signup mechanisms seem well- suited to attracting a statistically significant but not overwhelming pool of initial participants. I can't guarantee that that's what they were thinking, but it makes sense to me. They've already said they plan to expand it, maybe dual memberships will come later.
3. Eve already has a crapton of major career activities and all of them contribute to the overall economy/ ecosystem. It would definitely be a Bad Thing(tm) if any one of them garnered say 50+% of the playerbase.
4. Dual membership means more db queries for an already insanely complicated aggression mechanic in empire space. If CCP won't let asset search look in cans what makes you think they're going to go for that?
Let's not get into the first 2, after all, they are just conjecture. Number 3 is a Non-Issue. Oh wait, 4 is just a guess also.
The argument being made here isn't "I want my cake and eat it too". FW has handicapped the players access to the depth of gaming EVE has to offer. If you were actually reading most of these post you would realize that most people are willing to make a sacrifice for a more complex gaming experience. If we all wanted simplicity we would be playing WoW. |
Jarvis Hellstrom
The Flying Tigers
Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jakus Cemendur
People have already explained why it is the way it is. It is completely illogical to allow individuals to sign up for FW without leaving their corps, as you'd end up with loads o peple in the same corp at war with each other. Now I know you think that's fine, but for me that makes no sense. You're in a corp and should be working together, not fighting for different sides in an intergalactic war. It would be the equivalent of 2 corps within an alliances going to war with each other whilst staying part of the alliance. If that happened one or the other would have to leave the alliance to set the other one red. So why with FW should you be allowed to be in a corp with people you are at war with?
Never heard of the American Civil War?
Brother against brother - but still part of the same family. Folks from the same state fighting against one another - even one state which split entirely apart because it couldn't stand the stress.
Corps are not usually made up all of one race in EVE. They might well have Matari, Caldari, Gallente and Amarr all working side by side.
Then the war comes. Each goes home and they fight one another tragically killing friends and former allies. Corps are much like families, there is no reason why a CEO might not watch sadly as his people head off to fight on opposite sides without actually dismissing them - particularly if it serves his or her interests. Indeed a corp might well want to have irons in both fires so as to come out smelling like a rose whoever wins.
There are real world parallels in any Civil War you care to name, the Hundred Years War, the Wars of the Roses (in particular) any of the Roman internal struggles, the Fur Trade wars in North America etc.
In short, CCP made a choice. I'm sure they felt that they made it for good reason and they may be right for all manner of game balance or coding reasons.
However it wasn't the only choice and, from an RP standpoint, not even necessarily the right one. CCP has made errors before and fixed them, yet there are those who defend every choice the make as though it was irreversibly carved in stone.
Well they aren't, and so it's been shown. They're human, they make errors or they find better ways and change course.
The OP's opinion is valid. It's your right to disagree of course, but that doesn't make him 'wrong' just someone who holds a different opinion. |
Omanji
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:51:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
So I guess if we're completely eliminating conjecture we can just go ahead and strike your previous post from the record can't we?
Actually, they were rhetorical questions.
But you answered them all the same.
I'm still not seeing your point. Are you arguing that CCP should make an expansion that is only attractive to a portion of the EVE players. Or that they don't have enough resources to actually make a comprehensive expansion (they are only back up by Viacom).
Once again, bug are a non-issue. They are expected, we deal with them.
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Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:07:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Omanji
Actually, they were rhetorical questions.
Barf.
Quote:
Are you arguing that CCP should make an expansion that is only attractive to a portion of the EVE players?
Are you saying they shouldn't? Or is this another "rhetorical" question/ statement?
Eve already has a ton of features that only appeal to a portion of the playerbase, so what if one of them is large enough to take up an entire expansion?
Quote:
Or that they don't have enough resources to actually make a comprehensive expansion (they are only back up by Viacom)?
Here's what I'm saying: the more features you add, the more stuff there is to go wrong and the better the chance that problem "features" will linger far into the future. Any project has a better chance of getting done right if it limits its initial scope and expands incrementally.
That's what I'm saying. It's doubly true when you consider that CCP has the entire rest of Eve to deal with, which is also in varying states of needing attention -- it hasn't been put on hold for this you know.
Quote:
Once again, bug are a non-issue. They are expected, we deal with them.
No, "we" don't deal with them. "We" throw endless tantrums about them, "CCP" eventually fixes them -- or not. To claim that bugs are "a non- issue" is just about as laughable as it gets.
___________________________________________
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:11:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
I'm not talking about gameplay simplicity, I'm talking about technical simplicity. This patch added: new corps, a new quasi- alliance structure that behaves differently from "normal" alliances, new agents, new mission types, a new type of deadspace complex, a new set of objective mechanics and a new region of space. ALL of these are subject to unexpected bugs and exploits which will have to be dealt with; indeed, some of it's shown itself to be bugged already. That stuff represents a bunch of work to be done and as there are only so many hours in a day you've got to draw the line somewhere.
So they go through all that work and they still skimp out on the enrollment into the faction war.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:27:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: MotherMoon
still ignoring what would happen to your war targets in the faction corp I see.
WHY should corp wars overpower faction corp roles when the faction corp is A CORPERATION.
So whats going to happen when two corperations on the same side of the faction war are at war? There needs to be something already implemented to cover that issue.
Originally by: Bel Amar
Your suggestion would let people stay in their alliances without any penalty, and thus still end up dominating FW. That is your very good reason as to why the rules were designed the way they are, whether or not you agree with them
Im not arguing the Alliance point. I do think its a rather poor choice that all the Roleplaying Alliances get the shaft but my problem is with taking the effort to exclude those who are in regular corperations. I am under the impression that CCP didn't want to nerf corperation but thats exactly what they did.
there is is the same system as any two corps in an allaince.
THEY CAN'T. |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Trocent
So they go through all that work and they still skimp out on the enrollment into the faction war.
Pish tosh. It's perfectly possible to enroll in it.  |
Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:36:00 -
[95]
Originally by: MotherMoon
there is is the same system as any two corps in an allaince.
THEY CAN'T.
You might be onto something there but you'll need to use more words please.
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Kurt Adams
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:53:00 -
[96]
Saying something is easy. Actually writing the code for it is not.
I know I saw a Dev blog or interview addressing this very issue. He stated that the problem is more fundamental to the game mechanics. The program allows for one corp per character and the Dev stated that there is no way around this currently.
This makes sense if you think about all the things in the game that relate to the corp you are in currently. A lot of code that would have to be changed and there are many potential programming problems that would occur if the game now had to recognize up to two corporations for each member.
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Trocent
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.06.12 07:18:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Kurt Adams
Saying something is easy. Actually writing the code for it is not.
I know I saw a Dev blog or interview addressing this very issue. He stated that the problem is more fundamental to the game mechanics. The program allows for one corp per character and the Dev stated that there is no way around this currently.
This makes sense if you think about all the things in the game that relate to the corp you are in currently. A lot of code that would have to be changed and there are many potential programming problems that would occur if the game now had to recognize up to two corporations for each member.
Actually they could have done it right from the start without too much work. Instead of making NPC corps they could make it more like the bloodlines. Just something extra added to the character sheet and make it so the game checks that information to see if another person is a war target. I mean, the game already has to do various checks to see if you can attack another person without concord intervention.
It is likely that all NPCs are made from one class (or just a small handful). This new check would be very simple to program in. They've programmed in a whole bunch of new screens, new game mechanics, new ways of enteracting with NPCs and their corps. With all that work, adding in a new variable for a character wouldn't be very difficult.
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