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CSM Formal Meeting 5. Sunday 15th June. 18:00 hours Eve Time

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:06:00 - [1] 5th CSM Meeting: 15th of June 18:00 Eve Time Initial Agenda Items: 1. ALL discussions of the CSM to be ruled as "public record". This will include the private CSM mailing list. DARIUS 2. "It will be prohibited to bring the interpretation of the CSM document into discussion or vote, all questions regarding the interpretation will be sent to CCP." Ankhesentapemkah * 1.Capital Ships Online Bane http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=785828 2.Buff Large Autocannons (especially Dual 650mms and 800mms) Bane http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=785820 3.Abolish Learning Skills Bane http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779267 4.Completion of unfinished Story Arcs: Hardin http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=789648 Promotion of Roleplay Interests in EVE: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=791735 5. Increase the number of corporation standing slots: Hardin http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=789692 Corps should automatically obtain alliance standings: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=791955 6. Nighthawk Needs a powergrid Increase** (Jade) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777872 IÆd like all CSM representatives/alternatives that will be able to attend on Sunday to inform themselves about the council/public issues that weÆll be discussing in advance of the meeting. Please read the threads, check out the drafts and review the previous meeting minutes/chatlog so we donÆt waste any time allotted to us. If any CSM representative wishes items added to the agenda for Sunday please reply to this thread before 14:00 hours on Friday afternoon with a brief overview of the issue + link to the assembly hall thread. Make sure that the issue you are advocating will have been open to public debate for 7 days by the time of the meeting on Sunday. Since this is the last possible opportunity for ISSUEs to be raised in time for the Iceland trip all agenda items discussing issues must be coupled with COMPLETED submission template documents that must be available for inspection at the time of this meeting. Technically we are missing the deadline for the ISSUES discussed in this meeting, but we'll be sending them off anyway in a separate batch and asking that they be made available for discussion in Iceland if we have time following the main items submitted on thursday. *Note, order of the agenda will be tweaked if necessary to ensure that all CSM reps get their issues heard within the scope of the meeting. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
RDevz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 06:28:00 - [2] Edited by: RDevz on 11/06/2008 06:29:31 Oh, where to put my face. Sunday is not a working day.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 11/06/2008 22:42:03 Originally by: Jade Constantine 1. ALL discussions of the CSM to be ruled as "public record". This will include the private CSM mailing list. DARIUS From the email discussions there is clearly a difference of opinion between different Council members over whether the CSM mailing list has ever been 'private'. Might I suggest a more neutral term to use for this discussion therefore would be "This will include the closed-circulation CSM mailing list." IZ Related Information: Following the start of raising of this topic by Darius I stated: I am completely happy with this, including all retrospective emails. In part, because I had presumed that this use of eve-csm.com was to be a very temporary measure whilst CCP played catch-up and that we would then either use CCP-provided forum space locked to our use or an email list providing a similar service where CCP would receive copies of all mails anyway. I was elected as a member of the Council; as such all my activities as that elected member are subject to public (voter / pilot) scrutiny, and these emails are no different in that respect. with which a number of other Council Members have associated themselves whilst others have not commented. This provides part of the background on this topic My principles
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:43:00 - [4] Re item 1, Darius' motion - I'm not convinced this is a good idea. In my experience, most committees function far more smoothly when there are informal channels to use in advance of the meeting. You won't hammer out contentious stuff there, but to make sure all the stuff everyone agrees on goes smoothly, a private list that doesn't get seen by anyone else is invaluable, if only because you don't need to worry about keeping up false pretenses. Similarly, your private conversations should be sealed, even when they're about CSM business. I know Darius is our resident anarchist, and I know he'll disagree with me on this, but there's nothing wrong with the occasional back room. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 23:52:02 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Re item 1, Darius' motion - I'm not convinced this is a good idea. In my experience, most committees function far more smoothly when there are informal channels to use in advance of the meeting. You won't hammer out contentious stuff there, but to make sure all the stuff everyone agrees on goes smoothly, a private list that doesn't get seen by anyone else is invaluable, if only because you don't need to worry about keeping up false pretenses. Similarly, your private conversations should be sealed, even when they're about CSM business. I know Darius is our resident anarchist, and I know he'll disagree with me on this, but there's nothing wrong with the occasional back room. Yeah for the record I think its a terrible idea too and will be opposing it. And if the measure passes I won't be using the csm list for future communications. But we're not talking proposals for "the good of the csm" here Herschel, we're talking personal power plays and strategies for personal gain and more time wasted on admin wrangling and ego wars between people that dislike each other rather than actually talking about the issues on the agenda. Cynical perhaps but there you are. End of the day though he asked for the administrative Issue and it had to go on since it doesn't contradict the founding documentation. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 23:52:02 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Re item 1, Darius' motion - I'm not convinced this is a good idea. In my experience, most committees function far more smoothly when there are informal channels to use in advance of the meeting. You won't hammer out contentious stuff there, but to make sure all the stuff everyone agrees on goes smoothly, a private list that doesn't get seen by anyone else is invaluable, if only because you don't need to worry about keeping up false pretenses. Similarly, your private conversations should be sealed, even when they're about CSM business. I know Darius is our resident anarchist, and I know he'll disagree with me on this, but there's nothing wrong with the occasional back room. Yeah for the record I think its a terrible idea too and will be opposing it. And if the measure passes I won't be using the csm list for future communications. But we're not talking proposals for "the good of the csm" here Herschel, we're talking personal power plays and strategies for personal gain and more time wasted on admin wrangling and ego wars between people that dislike each other rather than actually talking about the issues on the agenda. Cynical perhaps but there you are. End of the day though he asked for the administrative Issue and it had to go on since it doesn't contradict the founding documentation. So you want your Transparent Player council to be Translucent or Opaque. You are here to serve us and serve us you shall. I dont understand for one moment why you need to have private communications for a player council that is supposed to be submitting player issues to CCP for them to review.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah for the record I think its a terrible idea too and will be opposing it. And if the measure passes I won't be using the csm list for future communications. But we're not talking proposals for "the good of the csm" here Herschel, we're talking personal power plays and strategies for personal gain and more time wasted on admin wrangling and ego wars between people that dislike each other rather than actually talking about the issues on the agenda. Cynical perhaps but there you are. End of the day though he asked for the administrative Issue and it had to go on since it doesn't contradict the founding documentation. A simple "I disagree with it too" would have sufficed, you didn't need to go into how he raped your dog and killed your mother. Has it occurred to you that he may actually believe what he's saying? ------------------ Fix the forums!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 00:03:07 Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah for the record I think its a terrible idea too and will be opposing it. And if the measure passes I won't be using the csm list for future communications. But we're not talking proposals for "the good of the csm" here Herschel, we're talking personal power plays and strategies for personal gain and more time wasted on admin wrangling and ego wars between people that dislike each other rather than actually talking about the issues on the agenda. Cynical perhaps but there you are. End of the day though he asked for the administrative Issue and it had to go on since it doesn't contradict the founding documentation. What do I have to gain from our own words being published? What does that have to do with politics? You're an absolute loon. Even if only because you truly believe anyone buys into your bull****. :edit: I can't help it if you're embarassed by your own conversations. Perhaps you should choose your words more wisely and not act like a baby when speaking with people.
Demarcus Killjoy.	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Jade Constantine Since this is the last possible opportunity for ISSUEs to be raised in time for the Iceland trip all agenda items discussing issues must be coupled with COMPLETED submission template documents that must be available for inspection at the time of this meeting. You know there is this funky new thing the kids are using called the interweb, wtf does a trip to Iceland have to do with anything? ------------------------------------- You are all worthless, and weak.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Has it occurred to you that he may actually believe what he's saying? Honestly, no. I have to work with the guy. I don't have to trust or like him. I am deeply suspicious of this measure and the reasons for its promotion. But hey, its my responsibility to put it on the agenda and I've done so. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:09:00 - [11] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 00:10:12 Originally by: Jade Constantine Honestly, no. I have to work with the guy. I don't have to trust or like him. I am deeply suspicious of this measure and the reasons for its promotion. But hey, its my responsibility to put it on the agenda and I've done so. Let me fill you in there cream puff... We're a public council. Our official communications are public record. Again... How does that help me politically? :edit: Here's a hint. It doesn't. I don't need any votes.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Has it occurred to you that he may actually believe what he's saying? Honestly, no. I have to work with the guy. I don't have to trust or like him. I am deeply suspicious of this measure and the reasons for its promotion. But hey, its my responsibility to put it on the agenda and I've done so. Well no one trust or likes you, and you are a loon. That doesn't change that fact you power play all the time and the fact that the council should be able to vote on its governing not be like ohh Eris Discordia [CCP] who was one of those La Maison people (Lianhaun). Help me my ability to be god emperor is in jeopardy. Eris Discordia you are my only hope. Also learn how to not have every thing you say seem like: WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT I honestly believe this is a real issue. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Let me fill you in there cream puff... We're a public council. Our official communications are public record. Again... How does that help me politically? You think up your own silly schemes. I could ask you how having the sole channel of private communication we still have, opened to public comment and politicized debate and trolling, might help the process of the CSM function. But then maybe you don't want us to be able to talk without putting on the boxing gloves and adopting the combative stances of the factions we've devolved into? Who knows. Any which way I think its a bad issue and will be voting against. We'll see what happens. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:16:00 - [14] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 00:16:16 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Let me fill you in there cream puff... We're a public council. Our official communications are public record. Again... How does that help me politically? You think up your own silly schemes. I could ask you how having the sole channel of private communication we still have, opened to public comment and politicized debate and trolling, might help the process of the CSM function. But then maybe you don't want us to be able to talk without putting on the boxing gloves and adopting the combative stances of the factions we've devolved into? Who knows. Any which way I think its a bad issue and will be voting against. We'll see what happens. My bet is on you losing, throwing a tantrum, muting any dissent then declaring the vote null after the fact. This is purely based on past experience.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:17:00 - [15] I'd be voting to get you to time meeting when the only representatives in the US could attend and not be a giant sack of meat that is out to get them. Your 39 its not like you have a bed time any more. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 00:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Has it occurred to you that he may actually believe what he's saying? Honestly, no. I have to work with the guy. I don't have to trust or like him. I am deeply suspicious of this measure and the reasons for its promotion. But hey, its my responsibility to put it on the agenda and I've done so. That's odd, because this is a guy who could pretty easily have put himself in your seat if he wanted to promote his own interests. Even if you don't agree that you've been misusing the powers of the Chair, I'm sure you'd agree that the powers you claim could be misused by someone with as horrible of intentions as you seem to suggest that Darius has. Everything he's said and done thus far that I've seen is consistent with him legitimately believing that you're all equals and the only rightful task of the Chair is calling votes, and that everything should be as public as humanly possible. I use "anarchist" as a one-liner to describe him - it's not really accurate, but "radical populaist" doesn't have the same ring to it. It's not a viewpoint I stand behind, but I'll defend him against what I perceive to be unfair criticism, just like I'll defend you from the same. It's not because I see eye to eye with either of you, it's because I prefer to stand up for truth and fairness as best I can, and said truth is rather more fair to both of you than each other would like to admit. I'd make a terrible partisan politician because of it - I'm way to quick to turn on my own side in public - but it's the right thing to do if you're going to get involved in debates like this in the first place. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:12:00 - [17] I believe most documents in the house of lords and house of commons are public. Surpisingly enough their private correspondences, phone calls, messages and meetings are not. Further, almost all committee's have un-minuted business to discuss issues frankly and bluntly. Otherwise we get all sorts of crap being thrown about in public. Jade, might be good to just state the Agenda and step back. Seriously consider taking the alloted meeting time, divide it between the issues over 90% and set 10% as AOB. If an issue fails to make it to a vote in its time limit then it gets canned to AOB. If it fails there then it gets canned to the next meeting.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Sapphrine I believe most documents in the house of lords and house of commons are public. Surpisingly enough their private correspondences, phone calls, messages and meetings are not. Further, almost all committee's have un-minuted business to discuss issues frankly and bluntly. Otherwise we get all sorts of crap being thrown about in public. Jade, might be good to just state the Agenda and step back. Seriously consider taking the alloted meeting time, divide it between the issues over 90% and set 10% as AOB. If an issue fails to make it to a vote in its time limit then it gets canned to AOB. If it fails there then it gets canned to the next meeting. Yeah moving administrative stuff to the end does actually sound like a damn good idea - I think I'll do it CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Sapphrine I believe most documents in the house of lords and house of commons are public. Surpisingly enough their private correspondences, phone calls, messages and meetings are not. Further, almost all committee's have un-minuted business to discuss issues frankly and bluntly. Otherwise we get all sorts of crap being thrown about in public. This isn't the House of Lords but either way I'm willing to bet they held an actual vote or something to decide that. I'm unfamiliar with that political system but here in America we agree on and publish our rules prior to stating their existence.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Inanna Zuni From the email discussions there is clearly a difference of opinion between different Council members over whether the CSM mailing list has ever been 'private'. Might I suggest a more neutral term to use for this discussion therefore would be "[i]This will include the closed-circulation CSM mailing list. Nope disagree on this. On reviewing Serenity's statement on the issue (list) I'm happy with the wording. It was intended to be a private mailing list and specifically stated as such - while this motion is to publicize its content. Motion stands as stated. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON This isn't the House of Lords but either way I'm willing to bet they held an actual vote or something to decide that. I'm unfamiliar with that political system but here in America we agree on and publish our rules prior to stating their existence. i'll try again. Pretty much all political structures have back channels of communication not open to the public. Belief that you can define all council business as public is just naieve. Ever tried getting minutes of republican whips meetings with senators when they're trying to encourage them to vote? :)
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah moving administrative stuff to the end does actually sound like a damn good idea - I think I'll do it now step away from the agenda :P
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Sapphrine i'll try again. Pretty much all political structures have back channels of communication not open to the public. Belief that you can define all council business as public is just naieve. Ever tried getting minutes of republican whips meetings with senators when they're trying to encourage them to vote? :) I'm naive then. I thought this was a videogame space council not the UN.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'm naive then. I thought this was a videogame space council not the UN. It's a committee trying to get work done. The pitfalls for such groups are pretty universal, as are the ways of getting around them - it doesn't matter if you're the House of Commons or the Greater Tuktoyaktuk Rotary Club, you want to have a back channel you can use to smooth things over without getting into ****ing matches or meeting formalities. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto It's a committee trying to get work done. The pitfalls for such groups are pretty universal, as are the ways of getting around them - it doesn't matter if you're the House of Commons or the Greater Tuktoyaktuk Rotary Club, you want to have a back channel you can use to smooth things over without getting into ****ing matches or meeting formalities. I don't personally have any need for secret meetings. If I did I'd say HEY MISTER THIS IS A SECRET MEETING and you could decide whether it remained so. If you spilled the beans then I'd know never to tell you another secret. v0v
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto It's a committee trying to get work done. The pitfalls for such groups are pretty universal, as are the ways of getting around them - it doesn't matter if you're the House of Commons or the Greater Tuktoyaktuk Rotary Club, you want to have a back channel you can use to smooth things over without getting into ****ing matches or meeting formalities. I don't personally have any need for secret meetings. If I did I'd say HEY MISTER THIS IS A SECRET MEETING and you could decide whether it remained so. If you spilled the beans then I'd know never to tell you another secret. v0v Yup, that's about how it works. Hence my comment about the 8-man mailing list. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'm naive then. I thought this was a videogame space council not the UN. Yet constantly argue it should mirror real world systems? surely not. If its not really meant to be taken seriously why bother doing it? Near enough any committee / executive board has off the record channels of communication with each other, its one of the ways to thrash out differences before meetings informally so that things don't get so heated under time pressure in the meetings. It helps alot with committee cohesion. What reason is there to see every single word a committee says during informal discussion? Their decisions can only be voted on during meetings and they are minuted. As long as any issue debated is outlined clearly in the meeting then debates where opinions collide noticeably will be recorded and stuff will actually get done.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Yup, that's about how it works. Hence my comment about the 8-man mailing list. Mailing lists by nature have multiple members and aren't assumed to be private FYI. At least not where I come from. Perhaps there's a cultural difference here.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Sapphrine Yet constantly argue it should mirror real world systems? surely not. If its not really meant to be taken seriously why bother doing it? Near enough any committee / executive board has off the record channels of communication with each other, its one of the ways to thrash out differences before meetings informally so that things don't get so heated under time pressure in the meetings. It helps alot with committee cohesion. What reason is there to see every single word a committee says during informal discussion? Their decisions can only be voted on during meetings and they are minuted. As long as any issue debated is outlined clearly in the meeting then debates where opinions collide noticeably will be recorded and stuff will actually get done. Where did I say it's not meant to be taken seriously? My statement which you've misconstrued was meant to say that real world rules need not apply here. If they did they'd have been documented. That's how I do things in the real world. I document them to let everyone know what they are. What reason is there not to see what THE ENTIRE COUNCIL discusses? I'm not talking about private personal emails. I'm talking about communications sent to everyone. We may end up having to agree to disagree because I really don't have a problem with everything I write as a representative of the council being posted anywhere on the internet... My actions are public actions.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:23:00 - [30] its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference?



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