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CSM Formal Meeting 5. Sunday 15th June. 18:00 hours Eve Time

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Kallynda Nai	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Sapphrine its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference? Why would this exchange need to be kept private?
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:27:00 - [32] Originally by: Kallynda Nai Originally by: Sapphrine its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference? Why would this exchange need to be kept private? because we only have so many csm meetings and because people need to discuss things before meetings if they're going to get anything done.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:28:00 - [33] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 12/06/2008 02:28:26 Originally by: Jade Constantine Who knows, perhaps knowing that we are open to full scrutiny might even help us all better focus on the task at hand. I agree, Jade, I agree.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:28:00 - [34] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 02:32:03 Originally by: Sapphrine its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference? The difference is that the first one works way better, and that only the second would be private if Darius' motion passes. Edit: Misread quoted post.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Sapphrine its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference? In one he emailed a list and in one he emailed each councilor individually... the size of the "to" field would be one notable difference. As I've said where I come from lists are treated differently. If the councilors don't want me discussing what they say on the list then they're free to remove me from their conversations they wish to remain private and use the list for announcements necessary for the CSM. As I've said to them and here I had no reason to believe this was some super secret list and I'd made them all aware of that. If you do not wish me to talk about a conversation then either tell me so or don't have it. I've never been anything other than honest.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:30:00 - [36] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 02:30:09 Dammit, I have to quit hitting "Quote" instead of "Edit"... Originally by: Kallynda Nai Originally by: Sapphrine its to do with ease and convenience for councillors darius. Councillor A has some suggestions and wants peoples feedback, he mails council mailing list for a chat. Alternatively, he mails each one individually... whats the difference? Why would this exchange need to be kept private? Maybe they don't want to risk looking like an idiot publicly? Maybe they want to duck controversy by doing a straw poll on an issue and then backing down? Maybe they're proposing something that their corpmates will hate?
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The difference is that the first one works way better, and that only the second would be allowed if Darius' motion pases. Both would be allowed if the motion passes. The list would be public. If people want to have a private conversation nothing's stopping anyone from doing so. I don't control the internet.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Maybe they don't want to risk looking like an idiot publicly? Maybe they want to duck controversy by doing a straw poll on an issue and then backing down? Maybe they're proposing something that their corpmates will hate? If you don't want to get caught with mud on your hands don't play in wet dirt.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:32:00 - [39] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 12/06/2008 02:33:36 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The difference is that the first one works way better, and that only the second would be allowed if Darius' motion pases. Both would be allowed if the motion passes. The list would be public. If people want to have a private conversation nothing's stopping anyone from doing so. I don't control the internet. True, I thought the word "private" was in the post I quoted. My bad - it's fixed above. Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Maybe they don't want to risk looking like an idiot publicly? Maybe they want to duck controversy by doing a straw poll on an issue and then backing down? Maybe they're proposing something that their corpmates will hate? If you don't want to get caught with mud on your hands don't play in wet dirt. I don't want people feeling forced to not do the right thing because it might damage their public persona. There's no way to arrange face-saving if everything is public, at a minimum.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I don't want people feeling forced to not do the right thing because it might damage their public persona. There's no way to arrange face-saving if everything is public, at a minimum. Do the right thing and be proud of it. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see how "doing the right thing" and "public" are mutually exclusive. At the end of the day your vote's going to be public anyway. You ARE accountable to the public. I don't get why anyone should try to hide anything unless they've deliberately mislead people. You may not agree but that's my opinion.

Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON As I've said to them and here I had no reason to believe this was some super secret list and I'd made them all aware of that. If you do not wish me to talk about a conversation then either tell me so or don't have it. I've never been anything other than honest. I have to ask, when you signed up to that mailing list, did your read the EULA because if it specified privacy like most lists then you're in breach... I'm not on the committee darius but where you come from (America i believe) Mailing lists are either open or closed, the same as everywhere else in the world. If you're not willing to keep a private mailing list private, you should remove yourself, not wait to be removed.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:56:00 - [42] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 02:56:30 Originally by: Sapphrine I have to ask, when you signed up to that mailing list, did your read the EULA because if it specified privacy like most lists then you're in breach... I'm not on the committee darius but where you come from (America i believe) Mailing lists are either open or closed, the same as everywhere else in the world. If you're not willing to keep a private mailing list private, you should remove yourself, not wait to be removed. The EULA, which I'll admit I didn't read until yesterday, forbids the reposting of emails. An act which has not been done. I HAVE talked about some of the discussions the council has had on that mailing list, an act not forbidden by anything. Nobody and no EULA can forbid me from discussing my experiences. If I relay entire conversations that's one thing. Me saying LOL JADE IS RENAMING ALL THE SUBJECT LINES LIKE THAT PROVES SOME POINT WHAT A TOOL! Violates nothing. Where I come from nothing is private unless explicitly stated as such in a clear and concise manner. I'll also note that I did not ever request to be a member of any mailing lists. If the admin wants to remove me, then he can remove me. Something I've also said to the admin and the entire council.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:57:00 - [43] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON As I've said to them and here I had no reason to believe this was some super secret list and I'd made them all aware of that. If you do not wish me to talk about a conversation then either tell me so or don't have it. I've never been anything other than honest. I have to ask, when you signed up to that mailing list, did your read the EULA because if it specified privacy like most lists then you're in breach... I'm not on the committee darius but where you come from (America i believe) Mailing lists are either open or closed, the same as everywhere else in the world. If you're not willing to keep a private mailing list private, you should remove yourself, not wait to be removed. Darius had personal permission to post the private communications that he posted. This trumps any such privacy agreement. Why is this true? Well because Darius only shared HIS communications. Which he has the express right to do.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I don't want people feeling forced to not do the right thing because it might damage their public persona. There's no way to arrange face-saving if everything is public, at a minimum. Do the right thing and be proud of it. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see how "doing the right thing" and "public" are mutually exclusive. At the end of the day your vote's going to be public anyway. You ARE accountable to the public. I don't get why anyone should try to hide anything unless they've deliberately mislead people. You may not agree but that's my opinion. Some people are a lot less devil-may-care than you. Face-saving compromise is necessary to a lot of people on occasion, and I'd rather not cut it off at the knees just because it's something you don't intend to make use of. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:04:00 - [45] and i never stated that he'd reposted anything anywhere though it is interesting that he did and that he hadn't read the EULA. Suffice to say, a method where members of CSM members can debate issues informally in private is useful. Arguing that you don't want to therefore everyone elses discussions should be public isn't really an argument. Remember, this has to work past just this iteration of the committe.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Some people are a lot less devil-may-care than you. Face-saving compromise is necessary to a lot of people on occasion, and I'd rather not cut it off at the knees just because it's something you don't intend to make use of. Then let people have private conversations. I'm not stopping them. Leave me out of it.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:06:00 - [47] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 12/06/2008 03:06:54 Originally by: Sapphrine and i never stated that he'd reposted anything anywhere though it is interesting that he did and that he hadn't read the EULA. Suffice to say, a method where members of CSM members can debate issues informally in private is useful. Arguing that you don't want to therefore everyone elses discussions should be public isn't really an argument. Remember, this has to work past just this iteration of the committe. I'm sorry but I can't be any clearer than saying "IF YOU WANT SOMETHING TO BE PRIVATE TELL ME SO OR DON'T SEND IT TO ME". I didn't ask to be added to any mailing lists or receive any emails. Also... I posted my own emails. So what? They're mine. It's my right to decide they're not private. Nobody else has that right.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:08:00 - [48] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Some people are a lot less devil-may-care than you. Face-saving compromise is necessary to a lot of people on occasion, and I'd rather not cut it off at the knees just because it's something you don't intend to make use of. Then let people have private conversations. I'm not stopping them. Leave me out of it. and Originally by: Darius JOHNSON 1. ALL discussions of the CSM to be ruled as "public record". This will include the private CSM mailing list. DARIUS I think you can save a lot of time now then darius and just drop that agenda item as you've just conceded that even you think that people should be able to have their own private conversations. I'd also suggest that at this point you should probably leave that mailing list as its clear you don't support its purpose. Or you could wait to be removed but I don't see what that would achieve tbh.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Some people are a lot less devil-may-care than you. Face-saving compromise is necessary to a lot of people on occasion, and I'd rather not cut it off at the knees just because it's something you don't intend to make use of. Then let people have private conversations. I'm not stopping them. Leave me out of it. Like I said, that's exactly what I expect will happen if full disclosure of everything you see is how you want to do things. I can hardly make you stop, I can just suggest that you're being counterproductive and trying to tie the CSM's hands, present and future, into a poor way of doing business. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:14:00 - [50] Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 12/06/2008 03:15:20 Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON As I've said to them and here I had no reason to believe this was some super secret list and I'd made them all aware of that. If you do not wish me to talk about a conversation then either tell me so or don't have it. I've never been anything other than honest. I have to ask, when you signed up to that mailing list, did your read the EULA because if it specified privacy like most lists then you're in breach... I'm not on the committee darius but where you come from (America i believe) Mailing lists are either open or closed, the same as everywhere else in the world. If you're not willing to keep a private mailing list private, you should remove yourself, not wait to be removed. Most legal opinion on the subject holds a full disclosure right to recipients of emails. In many (most? Its possibly different in the US which has some very strange copyright laws) cases the laws transfer full reproduction rights to recipients. Regardless fair use means your always allowed to reproduce a mail. You know those attachments on mail that says "You may not reproduce this email blah blah" ? There isn't a court in the world that holds those things valid. They are the equivalent of the shop sign that says "No refunds", totally invalid. edit: Exception to above. Generally if the inbox is owned by your employer, the mail becomes property of the company, as you recieved it in the role of a servant of the entity. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.

Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Sapphrine I think you can save a lot of time now then darius and just drop that agenda item as you've just conceded that even you think that people should be able to have their own private conversations. I'd also suggest that at this point you should probably leave that mailing list as its clear you don't support its purpose. Or you could wait to be removed but I don't see what that would achieve tbh. To your first point the agenda item and people's private conversations are mutually exclusive. The two items are not related. As I DID state I don't control the internet. Nor do you or the CSM. Have private conversations. Do them in private places. The way the list was used council statements and rules were handed down and defined among other things. I think that should be part of the public record. Nothing I've said contradicts that. I never asked to be on the mailing list. I cannot remove myself and I didn't add myself. I already said that as well. Twice.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Most legal opinion on the subject holds a full disclosure right to recipients of emails. In many (most? Its possibly different in the US which has some very strange copyright laws) cases the laws transfer full reproduction rights to recipients. Regardless fair use means your always allowed to reproduce a mail. You know those attachments on mail that says "You may not reproduce this email blah blah" ? There isn't a court in the world that holds those things valid. They are the equivalent of the shop sign that says "No refunds", totally invalid. edit: Exception to above. Generally if the inbox is owned by your employer, the mail becomes property of the company, as you recieved it in the role of a servant of the entity. I was trying to avoid the legal argument on purpose Jane as now I expect a flood of e-lawyers. What you've said is however correct.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:18:00 - [53] Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 12/06/2008 03:18:54 edit: Ok. Sorry darius. I'll back down on the e-lawyering. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 12/06/2008 03:18:54 edit: Ok. Sorry darius. I'll back down on the e-lawyering. Oh the main issue at hand there though, which I'm sure people will bring up, is that only two of the recipients were American. This is the MAIN reason no emails were ever published save my own. I am not familiar with their laws nor do I care to be.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:23:00 - [55] A mailing list you can opt out of recognises that a committee has collective needs to discuss issues and provides an easy method of facilitating this. You can of course opt out as you've stated. They're hardly mutually exclusive. You just argued against your own argument conclusively. The committee needs to have tools when you're long gone. You've conceded people can, do and will have private discussions. The objective of a mailing list is to allow for more conscise and meaningful debate in actual CSM sessions. These ARE public. Your argument for making it public is that you want it that way. That is your entire argument based on the last page and a half and simply isn't a reason to do it. Meeting should likely go, Agenda item open, say your piece, someone summarises reasons against, council votes. Over in about 5mins. Or, given you've concluded its personal choice and people can opt out, it doesn't even need to be on the agenda as trying to limit peoples ability to have personal discussions, even about CSM issues, is not within your remit.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:39:00 - [56] Originally by: Sapphrine A mailing list you can opt out of recognises that a committee has collective needs to discuss issues and provides an easy method of facilitating this. You can of course opt out as you've stated. They're hardly mutually exclusive. You just argued against your own argument conclusively. The committee needs to have tools when you're long gone. You've conceded people can, do and will have private discussions. The objective of a mailing list is to allow for more conscise and meaningful debate in actual CSM sessions. These ARE public. Your argument for making it public is that you want it that way. That is your entire argument based on the last page and a half and simply isn't a reason to do it. Meeting should likely go, Agenda item open, say your piece, someone summarises reasons against, council votes. Over in about 5mins. Or, given you've concluded its personal choice and people can opt out, it doesn't even need to be on the agenda as trying to limit peoples ability to have personal discussions, even about CSM issues, is not within your remit. You can restate your version of my statements until you're blue in the face. I'll prefer to say your statements are yours and mine are mine. Don't make a different statement than I did and say it's mine. I said all group communications should be public at the very least where they involve council duties. Saying I didn't say that or saying I said something else doesn't change it. My statements are obvious because they have my name next to them. Not yours. Really I can only continue to respond to this with the same things I've already said. It appears you disagree. That's your prerogative and I respect your opinion. A circular argument I will not have. FYI, you can disagree without editorializing other people's statements.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:42:00 - [57] I agree to disagree then. I hope the meeting is smoother this time.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Sapphrine I agree to disagree then. I hope the meeting is smoother this time. That makes two of us.
JafoPBCFR	Posted - 2008.06.12 11:40:00 - [59] All email unless deemed Security sensative are public. in the US Govt. I know this as I have had a few of my Emails made Public due to the Freedom Of information act. Now In Jades Char View over her Subjects. the Commitee Shouldnt allow anything Public. Perhaps the Chair should have CCP fund a KGB style unit. Darius will be taken in the middle of the nite and shot his acct canceld and A fake Post made in his name stating that he was reallyy a WOW player all along and wanted to make Elfs in EVE the whole time. Thus a Trator to EVE! All Crap aside. It seems the EVIL darius of Goons wants to make sure theres no question of His dedication to the players. And Not his Corp/Aliences. And This I applaud him for. as for Jane. Step Down your not winning support your just makeing things worse with every word you type.
Natalia Kovac Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:59:00 - [60] Look at Minnie capitals dammit. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779753



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