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Sister Immacolata
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:36:00 -
[211]
 Originally by: Colgean
Maybe I am way off but it seems as though they made the change cause they can't get the defenders to work right. Might as well just start melting down my kestrel now. A bunch of frigates should be able to take down a lone BS.
Perhaps they should, question is how many should be needed. Without heavies or cruise missiles, it ain't gonna happen with the current mini-packs. Even if a BS can't hit a pack of fast manouvering frigates that orbits and jams and scrambles the ship, will they be able to inflict enough damage to shields and armor with their peashooters? Time will show.
Thing is, this could indeed lead to mixed fleets being even more necessary than ever before.
Packs of frigates will be able to take out lone cruisers, but not packs of cruiser. Packs of cruisers will be able to kill a BS, but not a fleet of them. BS will be able to kill Cruiser and other BS - but not frigates if the frigates are smart.
So what will happen?
Probably fleet battles where all 3 classes are needed. Frigates to EW. Anti-frigates to hunt the frigates that tries to EW. Cruisers that tries to take out the frigates, anti-cruiser cruisers that tries to take out the cruisers.
The role of the frigates will no more be to gank BS, but to prevent the bs from ganking the other ships at max. efficiency.
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
Sleyha
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:39:00 -
[212]
I have to add my two cents worth.
By removing Torpedoes from Heavy Launchers, we will seriously nerf Cruisers ability to cause damage.
Bad Change CCP.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:40:00 -
[213]
Won't the signature-radius tracking changes mean cruiser turrets will be much more effective? This may cancel out any loss from not being able to use cruise/torps.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:46:00 -
[214]
TomB,
Since the balance changes seem to be directed towards making the correct size modules/weaponry applicable to the correct class of ship (i.e small missiles for frigates only etc) will you be introducing different size webifying/warp-jamming equipment?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:48:00 -
[215]
What is the deal with people saying siege launchers dont fit on raven's ?
They fit fine. The most ³ber 1v1 setups use 6 of em afaik, that doesnt sound like anything is wrong to me. Everybody has to compromise to get either offense or defense going.
Anyway, the changes sound fine to me. Increase speed and aglity for lighter missiles and v.v. for heavier ones and it should all turn out fine. Frigs will still pwn cruisers that only fire heavy missiles, and cruisers can still get at BS's that fire only cruises that way.
Sounds to me this goes towards bringing back the cruiser.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Sister Immacolata
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:50:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
TomB,
Since the balance changes seem to be directed towards making the correct size modules/weaponry applicable to the correct class of ship (i.e small missiles for frigates only etc) will you be introducing different size webifying/warp-jamming equipment?
If it would take a BS to jam a BS, and frigates can't do it, we might as well retire them. I think it should be possible for small ships to EW big ones.
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:55:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Sister Immacolata
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
TomB,
Since the balance changes seem to be directed towards making the correct size modules/weaponry applicable to the correct class of ship (i.e small missiles for frigates only etc) will you be introducing different size webifying/warp-jamming equipment?
If it would take a BS to jam a BS, and frigates can't do it, we might as well retire them. I think it should be possible for small ships to EW big ones.
I was thinking more along the lines of needing more than one frigate to completely webify/warp-jam a battleship.
Seems silly that a 100MN thrust engine can be stopped by a module fitted to a single 1MN thrust engine.....
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 08:58:00 -
[218]
6 Siege Launchers aren't difficult to fit.
You just have to pay out a LOT to do it and not completely bugger up your lo-slots.
Still, most other large weapons require you to use rcu/power diags to fit 6 so Raven pilots shouldn't complain about needing to use tech II lo-slot modules to do it (and that's with having to pay out for 6 malkuth siege) 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Sister Immacolata
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:00:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I was thinking more along the lines of needing more than one frigate to completely webify/warp-jam a battleship.
Seems silly that a 100MN thrust engine can be stopped by a module fitted to a single 1MN thrust engine.....
Ah yes, well then we are on the same page then :) I wouldn't mind that. 3 frigs to lock down a bs, 2 for a cruiser?
. . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ... |
Lyonardt
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:01:00 -
[220]
Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines of needing more than one frigate to completely webify/warp-jam a battleship.
Seems silly that a 100MN thrust engine can be stopped by a module fitted to a single 1MN thrust engine.....
Yes, make frigates even more useless, now some of the figs can't do any damage at all, take away the other abilites we still have left as well.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:09:00 -
[221]
Frigate pilots are happy for large guns to be changed so they can rarely (if ever) hit their small ship but when it comes to changing a frigate module so it is affected by size...................
Talk about having your cake and eating it.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lyonardt
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:10:00 -
[222]
I haven't had much against the current turret trackings and stuff, as now frigs can hurt/hinder a bs and a bs can do the same to a frig but if different sized modules are made, neither can do anything to the other so basically we could as well play a different game.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:12:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Lyonardt
I haven't had much against the current turret trackings and stuff, as now frigs can hurt/hinder a bs and a bs can do the same to a frig but if different sized modules are made, neither can do anything to the other so basically we could as well play a different game.
No.
It would require TEAMWORK.
Isn't that what frigate pilots have been screaming at BS pilots who complained about the tracking changes?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
StarWolfer
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:12:00 -
[224]
Originally by: DeMundus
ok - iam a bit of a new player, but I think this suck big time.... now the new players will have it even harder to go out in 0.0 and pvp... my crow will now be worthless compared to now. Plz tell me what is wrong withe the current scheme?
What's wrong is that you deal 100X the damage compared to my Malediction. What's wrong is that you take out any indy, interceptor, frigate one volley... What's wrong is that every BS pilot (without drones) is now affraid for 2 or 3 Crow's as they circle around it with 4 KM/sec and fill it with cruise missiles in the meanwhile...
That's what's wrong, and needs to change, capice ?  |
0mega
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:13:00 -
[225]
not happy with these changes , your assesment of the Caracal is way over rated, in essence you are nerfing frigates and cruisers by removing their ability to fire cruise a big mistake in my opinion.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:13:00 -
[226]
Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines of needing more than one frigate to completely webify/warp-jam a battleship.
True.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Demon Johnson
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:19:00 -
[227]
Love it..LOVE IT!
Caldari ships where overpowered in PvP (why else over 50% of PvP fleets are made of Caldari ships?) and UNDERPOWERED in NPC-Fighing. When the missles get much cheaper and launchers get back to thier shipsize<->missletype relation it makes both more fair.
I like the idea about the assault launcher. The first BS weapon designed to get rid of circling frigates. I hope they will have a chance to hit even when the frigates cyrcles at 5 km with its MWD on.
You may now go on whining
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Lyonardt
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:20:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
No.
It would require TEAMWORK.
Isn't that what frigate pilots have been screaming at BS pilots who complained about the tracking changes?
If fleets need multiple frigs to keep a BS scrambled and the frigs can't do any damage themselves, whats left to keep most of the people currently flying frigs to keep them flying in them? They'd rather take a BB or a BS as with those they need less items/people to keep a BS jammed and they are also more useful in other fields then, as they can actually damage the BSs. The new missile changes are bad enough but different module sizes for scrambling modules will reduce frigs to only 1 role - catching ships at gatecamps. That's of course when there's enough of them to keep the target from escaping.
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Denyerec
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:22:00 -
[229]
I've been thinking about this, and I see a lot of people whining they can't fit X number of the biggest guns or "I can't use 6 1400's and 2x seige" etc etc.
I have a suspicious feeling that CCP want people to mix and match their setups instead of blindly trying to cram on as many of the largest guns they can.
With this bourne in mind, the large launcher fitting rants all come to nought.
As for Thermal Only ?
Well, I'm going to run off some "Got Thermal?" bumper stickers in frigate, cruiser and battleship sizes, if you're interested drop me a line ingame...
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:23:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Demon Johnson
Love it..LOVE IT!
Caldari ships where overpowered in PvP (why else over 50% of PvP fleets are made of Caldari ships?) and UNDERPOWERED in NPC-Fighing. When the missles get much cheaper and launchers get back to thier shipsize<->missletype relation it makes both more fair.
I like the idea about the assault launcher. The first BS weapon designed to get rid of circling frigates. I hope they will have a chance to hit even when the frigates cyrcles at 5 km with its MWD on.
You may now go on whining
These changes don't make Caldari ships any worse at PvP.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:24:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Lyonardt
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
No.
It would require TEAMWORK.
Isn't that what frigate pilots have been screaming at BS pilots who complained about the tracking changes?
If fleets need multiple frigs to keep a BS scrambled and the frigs can't do any damage themselves, whats left to keep most of the people currently flying frigs to keep them flying in them? They'd rather take a BB or a BS as with those they need less items/people to keep a BS jammed and they are also more useful in other fields then, as they can actually damage the BSs. The new missile changes are bad enough but different module sizes for scrambling modules will reduce frigs to only 1 role - catching ships at gatecamps. That's of course when there's enough of them to keep the target from escaping.
Frigates will be very very difficult to hit - thats why people will fly them.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lyonardt
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Posted - 2004.05.11 09:29:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Frigates will be very very difficult to hit - thats why people will fly them.
And very useless in anything except frig vs frig fights, maybe in ganking indies as well. I'd rather be hit more easily and be useful, than just fly around and not being able to do anything.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:03:00 -
[233]
I'm not gonna bother with this discussion since it's to damn apparent most people don't want balance they wanna keep their unbalanced crap cause that's what they trained for and/or are using right now. What I will do is;
Thank you TomB awesome changes and much needed, with all the other changes currently in development the game will be much improved for all of us. Keep up the good work and keep on ignoring all the morons, tnx again.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Orestes
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:05:00 -
[234]
Keep the thread on-topic. Don't flame and don't troll.
Offer your opinion as much as you like, but keep it constructive.
Join the IC! |
Ole F
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:10:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Ole F on 11/05/2004 10:38:15
i think that caldari bonus aside... the changes to missiles dont look too bad... however as missiles ALLWAYS hit unless countered with defenders(smartbombs are usually to slow, especially in laggy pvp), we need more ways of defending against missiles... since the only effective defense we have at this time is missile based... look at gallente and amarr for instance... elite frigs aside, gallente have 3 missile capable ships in their entire fleet.. and amarr about the same if memory serves me right... so most of their ships have no effective means of defending against missiles...
as omri mentioned earlier, more effective means for small ships to defend against drones would also be useful..
Hence, these missile changes might work IF you incorporate more ways of defending against missiles...
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Henka
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:28:00 -
[236]
I bet they will make missiles do the same DOT as turrets, and then remove all anti missile weapons. Just to make it "fair"
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Kaylen Avaar
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:30:00 -
[237]
I admit to being a bit worried about these changes but to be honest let's pause for a moment and look at realism. Battleships are meant to be big and powerful and versus a Cruiser they are supposed to be able to kill them easily. Destroyers (and Frigates) are designed to be very fast and so avoid directed fire from Battleships but a Cruiser would be able to kill them fairly quickly. This means that you have a situation where BS can kill Cruiser, Cruiser can kill Frigate and neither BS or Frigate can do much damage to each other.
One interpretation of this would be that we are going to be looking at class wars. Frigates fighting other Frigates and so on up. However, this overlooks the possible tactical use of Frigates to support Cruisers. 2-3 Frigates should be able to get close to a BS with web, scramble and ECM (maybe use a Cruiser like the BB for the ECM) and then Cruisers could pound away at the BS slowly over time to kill it. This means that a small fleet of 1-2 Cruisers and 2-3 Frigates could threaten a solo BS which was unsupported. That is fairly realistic.
1v1 PvP is going to become a class thing, but fleet PvP is going to become very much about make-up and tactics. That has got to be a good thing.
- - -
I prefer the "reconnaisance by fire" approach to negotiation.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:30:00 -
[238]
In general, these changes look quite good to me.
With changes coming in that make frigates harder hit with large guns, it seems reasonable to expect them to do less damage against larger ships. Even if they can only fit light missiles, they will still have a role in PvP.
The Caldari bonuses seem a little weird - 10% per level bonuses seem a little excessive, but on the other hand, only giving a damage bonus to thermal missiles seems odd.
Cruisers seem to be the big losers here, as TomB seems to accept in his original post. I've asked for it before, and I'll ask for it again now - is there any chance that cruisers can be given two skill bonuses to make them the same as every other ship in ther game?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:33:00 -
[239]
Originally by: TomB
6X Siege Launchers on Raven: is possible, but sacrifices
No ****.
Siege launchers use lots of CPU
Shield modules use lots of CPU
power diags use lots of CPU
Fitting a raven will be impossible unless you have Siege arbalest launchers (which cost 18M each) and weapon upgrades lvl 5.
There are already LOTS of Raven pilots using armor tanking instead of shield tanking on chaos (since that use less cap and you have better basic armor resistance).
This will make most raven pilots armor tank instead, since that is also much more CPU friendly.
This problem needs to be solved unless Ravens are meant to be armor tanked.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Kerberus
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Posted - 2004.05.11 10:38:00 -
[240]
Originally by: StarWolfer
Originally by: DeMundus
ok - iam a bit of a new player, but I think this suck big time.... now the new players will have it even harder to go out in 0.0 and pvp... my crow will now be worthless compared to now. Plz tell me what is wrong withe the current scheme?
What's wrong is that you deal 100X the damage compared to my Malediction. What's wrong is that you take out any indy, interceptor, frigate one volley... What's wrong is that every BS pilot (without drones) is now affraid for 2 or 3 Crow's as they circle around it with 4 KM/sec and fill it with cruise missiles in the meanwhile...
That's what's wrong, and needs to change, capice ?
Simple way to stop Interceptors,
1...Equip large NOS or Energy Neutraliser
2...Drain all their cap away
3...No cap left for MWD
4...Blast em when they slow down
Simple
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