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Kronarty	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:25:00 - [31] What happens to the Crow? I don't see it mentioned anywhere... Am I training caldari frigate 5 to be able to fire rockets and light missiles? Cruisers not able to fire cruise missiles? Bye bye Caracal...
ZelRox	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:25:00 - [32] Well i sincerely hope that these decisions will be revised, and alot. First of all it will make the frig pilot just about useless, since any battleship pilot with some sense can tank hordes of heavies, no to talk about lights, i can tank lights in a moa all day. This will also reduce interceptors\frigs to a simple indy hunters. Warp scramble and webify a victim wich wont shoot back, and then pound it with lights... This is a bad. ---------------------- I wanna tuc tuc ..
Bella Verde	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:32:00 - [33] Frigs are not going to be useless against battleship... The main problem with me is that the caldari ships get 15% bonuses. Thats just wrong.
Blazyon	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:34:00 - [34] If the rocket launcher ROF is a typo, rockets will become quite useful, as you can fire a lot more of them. But if rocket launchers are in fact 10sec ROF, I agree, frigates will become near useless against a battleship, even in extreme groups. For cruisers, this is horrible. But perhaps cruisers will get love next :) Though there hasn't been much love given so far :) Pain is an object of relativity.
Steven Gould	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:34:00 - [35] Hmm, sounds like fun, I'll have to redo half of my ship configs again :) will be fun experimenting. 2 Points of possible interest though: 1) What about interceptors, I don't see anything about interceptors in this picture. Seems to me that maybe they should get a power/cpu discount on launcher so they at least can use heavy missiles? Cruise would be nice of course but I don't see that matching the rest of the picture. 2) I'm kind of worried about the Raven, I don't think this ship has enough CPU even with boosts and electronics 5 to realize its potential. Siege launchers just take to much CPU. No problems there for the Scorp of course :) All in all I think this might just revitalize the whole missile stuff a bit, atm the only real missile usage I see in frigates with cruise missiles so a workabout doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. With some CPU reworking a ship like the Raven would finally be a very dangerous opponent again, and a lot cheaper to operate than with current missile cost (groan). An interesting time ahead. Quote: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Steven Gould	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:37:00 - [36] Hmm, I just realized I'm missing torpedo's in this picture, where do they fit in? Will they be reworked as well and maybe even become usefull now? Would be nice to actually see some torpedos in use for a change. Or are they disappearing altogether? Quote: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
csebal	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:38:00 - [37] I would fill long pages with rants about how these changes disappoint me, but it would be pointless. I will just wait until they hit chaos to have some actual examples that support my rant. Sadly my experiences from the past year show, that my worst fears usually come true ;) Lets hope i'm wrong this time. ------------- This post is nothing more than my personal opinion. It does not represent the official standpoint of Fountain Alliance, or the HUN Corporation in any way. -------------
Teeth	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:40:00 - [38] Originally by: Bella Verde Frigs are not going to be useless against battleship... The main problem with me is that the caldari ships get 15% bonuses. Thats just wrong. Forget about the numbers. 5% in one category is not the same as 5% in a different category. 5% range doesn't give you the same benefit as 5% damage. I'm glad TomB's trying to balance towards performance and not towards every bonus being a clean 5%. The missile type and launcher type changes though... I'm still trying to digest those :-/
Bella Verde	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:44:00 - [39] Interceptors arent meant to do lots of damage, they are meant to be the first ones to attack, jam, web, fire a salvo and then mwd away and let the big boys play. Cruisers need some lovin, but not with cruise missiles. I think the minmatar ships need some more powergrid, though. They cant use siege launchers at all, at least caldari ships can fit a few. And they also need to be reduced in CPU usage, so the caldari can fit more as well. Rocket and small launchers, and heavy too, need higher ROF. And also, defenders need to be fixed. Finally, although you got the right idea, the changes just are going to make everything wierd again, Caldari and Minmatar are going to suffer under this, Minmatar the most.
Adriana Silvosse	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:48:00 - [40] I agree with Andrew, allowing the changes he mentioned below will still allow for a frigate to hit hard. Originally by: Andrew Jade Edited by: Andrew Jade on 10/05/2004 19:33:24 yeah these changes will reduce the use of frigates. If you allowed frigates to still equip heavy missiles it would be alright. standard launcher ; up to heavy missiles heavy launcher; up to cruise missiles seige launcher ; up to torps Would work far better. This would still allow frigates to hit hard, and also allow cruisers to take part. This makes frigates and cruisers rather useless again. Except for jamming and warp/webying. -Aj- _______________________ Hail to the king, baby!
kbuk	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:48:00 - [41] So instead of just removing cruise / torp from frig, whish is all that really needed to be done. They have nerf'd all missiles Well done CCP yet again you're proving you can only make the game worse by trying to 'fix' things.
Synapse	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:51:00 - [42] Great :P Frigs are now useless again :P cruisers have even less of a role in group combat, and now in long engagements, ravens and scorps are gonna be sitting idle for 10 mins taking fire while they reload :P - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - In a future where freedom is outlawed, outlaws will become heros
Hellek	Posted - 2004.05.10 20:55:00 - [43] I appreciate this change as it more or less removes the possibility for a raven to tank and deal a lot of damage at the same time. This makes the weaker battleships like the Apoc less weak compared to the Raven. And guys, please don't forget: Many other BS also use launchers. maybe not primarily but as secondary weapon. Many Apoc pilots have 2 heavy launchers, many tempest pilots have 3-4, this equally nerfes all of them, only it does not hit megathron and apoc so much and they are the weakest ship. So stop whining, it just adds more balance to the game. Are you now crying as Raven is not much more stronger than the other BS any more (I think it still is stronger than an Apoc anyway)? About the frigs: I always disliked the fact that a small group of frigates which only costs a few hundred thousand isk was able to take down a 150 mill (ship + equippment) BS. I am glad this is more difficult now and that frigs get forced to play the role which they should: support ships for EW and scouting. I hope that after those changes, TomB has time to have a look at Lasers and the Amarr ships.
Ship Mover	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:00:00 - [44] This Sucks Frigs are gonna be totally useless (Lights won't even worry an indy) Cruisers are gonna be even more useless So the only useful PvP class will be the BS now There was me thinking the devs wanted to make people fly other ship classes :S At least let frigs be able to use heavies
Katchin	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:01:00 - [45] Agree with above^^ To all the Caldari Whiners: This simply Brings Missles on par with turrets. Why should a crow deal 100x more dmg than any turret based inty. Why should rifters and kestrals be the be all end all in Frigate combat? Now all frigs are more equal, missles will do similar dmg to S turrets. Killing BSs will still be possible, just will take longer (more realistic) and groups of 6 or more frigs (more fair). The other currently useless intys such as amarr will become more useful because they wont be popped by cruises long before they get to shoot back. NOW BALANCE AMARR BS skill/ Apoc / Lasers!!!!!
Katchin	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:01:00 - [46] Agree with above^^ To all the Caldari Whiners: This simply Brings Missles on par with turrets. Why should a crow deal 100x more dmg than any turret based inty. Why should rifters and kestrals be the be all end all in Frigate combat? Now all frigs are more equal, missles will do similar dmg to S turrets. Killing BSs will still be possible, just will take longer (more realistic) and groups of 6 or more frigs (more fair). The other currently useless intys such as amarr will become more useful because they wont be popped by cruises long before they get to shoot back. NOW BALANCE AMARR BS skill/ Apoc / Lasers!!!!!
Pango	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:01:00 - [47] Does this mean that seems players cr's can't fit seige launchers on to use cruise missiles that they are going to correctly change the kill missions. For example inferno's as it will be impossible for them to have a siege launcher as well? Lt. Pangoon "Pango" der Mika
KR SUN	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:09:00 - [48] On a second thought these changes just do one big thing: Remove any competition between ship classes, such as frigates has no chance vs cruser and vs bs its just a fly vs a tank. Crusers have no chance vs bs, I mean come on - carcal with heavies vs a bs with guns or cruises? You can't avoid bs guns on a cruser and you cant deal much damage to the bs. BS will have no real chance to blow up a frig, but they wont be at any danger vs frigs (they will tank them) or crusers (they will blow up cruser much faster then crusers could damage the bs). Add new jamming, so u can't really jam a bs but have "a chance" and every1 is back to battleships again.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:11:00 - [49] In reply to Katchin: I am glad that I am not alone with this view. It was obvious that a lot of people would whine about the proposed changes and I hope that TomB also sees the big other side which welcomes the changes. As things are at the moment, it is very unbalanced, and all the whining just shows me how much people got used to it. After a few weeks, when they have adapted to the changes, things will be calm again. This changes are definately the first step towards making PvP as well as the whole game a lot better and fairer. Those who can not live with fairness should get themselves a singleplayer game + cheatcodes.
TNutz	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:11:00 - [50] Tomb you just don't have a clue. I vote for the TOMB nerf fire him from CCP. He's lost touch with players.
Righteous Fury	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:12:00 - [51] I don't like these proposed changes too much. First off, I can only fit heavy launchers on my apoc, I dont have nearly enough CPU for seige whatsoever. So basically that leaves me with two useless high slots. Lovely. If this change does go into affect, can I have the option to re-allocate my skill points from missile ops V to some other skill?
Rob Mattacks	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:16:00 - [52] On the face of it these changes will cripple the Typhoon and Tempest (amongst other ships). The fitting requirements of siege launchers are too great without gimping the low slot set ups of either ship. The 'phoon will be hit hardest as it has no versatility in it's high slots, meaning it's damage output will be serverely reduced considering it will have to fit 4 missile launchers that fire cruiser type missiles (heavies) and still has only one good bonus for projectiles which affects just 4 turrets. As I said "on the face of it" will have to wait and see I guess.....
GrendelPrime	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:20:00 - [53] Quote: Skills for all missile types will increase damage of the missiles instead of giving a boost to agility, flight time or others. Well this Part make me happy... now I don't feel so foolish for training rockets to lvl 5 . However I really hope that the 10 second RoF for the rocket launcher/Assault Launcher is a typo, if not... well that would be "not so good". Kinda make me wonder if that RoF is in some way due to the limits of the game engine/ server lag balancing??. As of right now w/ missile ops 5 the RoF for a rocket launcher is .75 Sec, so with the increased capacity that would be a LARGE number of missiles (rockets) in the "void". While the results would be kinda cool, if it is a game engine limitation I can understand it... Anyone want to hazard a guess?? The only other thing I would rather see is the Caracal get a bonus to either missile velocity or to Launcher Rof instead of the Thermal damage bonus purposed. One thing is for sure though, its gonna be interesting times ahead... "Though you may die, do not give up your honor" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:21:00 - [54] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/05/2004 22:14:04 Well now frigates are back to being useless noob crap (besides for jamming/scouting). At least let frigates hold heavies and let cruiser's hold cruise. Maybe put in a -50% or -60% launcher capacity penalty for using heavy missles on std. launchers and cruise on heavies? Or how about lowering the ROF bigtime on the rocket/std/heavy launchers so that they might be atleast somewhat effective. I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Turyleon Caddarn	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:21:00 - [55] well done ccp way to nerf cruisers. You make frigs better, and you give siege faster ROF that heavies. well done. the cruiser is now useless. no more heavy drones (because they have been nerfed) no more 250s used on frigs (because they have been nerfed) no more cruises used on frigs (because they have been nerfed) no more cruises used on bs (because they have been nerfed)... so its gonna take 10mins to kill a bs, and with heavies, he could just use a shield booster and you wouldnt do anything unless you have 7-8 cruisers per battleship. might aswell put cruisers in the Freight goods section, or repro them for scrap. "I know this game, it's called Cat and Mouse. There's only one way to win......... Don't be the mouse."
Russo	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:24:00 - [56] Ok it isnt aprils fools. No cruise missiles for cruisers??? Who had that bright idea. Maybe if you allowed the caracal to use cruise missiles and no other cruiser, I could see that since the caldari specialize with missiles, but to take it away from the caracal is just plain rediculous. What is the point of building a missile boat that cant use all the types of missiles? It wouldnt make sense to do it. Also, why dont the caldari get some damage bonuses! range this range that, the caldari are the tough ones, not the gallente, its the gallente that should try to be shooting it out at range. it doesnt go with the personality of the races! and why give the caldari bonuses only on thermal? then everyone will just equip thermal hardeners. how about bonuses on all missile types? How about missile reload bonus speed (would be way better than 5% bonus to thermal, cmon now seriously thats peanuts) CRUISE FOR CARACAL! Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia Your friendly neighborhood badass 'Peace is our profession. Mass murder is just a hobby.'
JoCool	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:26:00 - [57] What about the Raven? Will it get a CPU boost then ?
Baun	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:27:00 - [58] Quote: Rocket Launcher Missile Types: rockets, defenders Rate Of Fire: 10 secs Capacity: 0.6 (60 rockets) Standard Launcher Missile Types: guided light, FoF light, defenders Rate Of Fire: 15 secs Capacity: 1.2 (40 light missiles) So let me get this straight. You are upping missle rof, removing the ability for lighter launcehrs to fire heavier missles, and NOT increasing missle damage significantly (and no light missles doing 12.5 extra damage at lvl5 skill doesnt cut it). Tomb, I will say this simply so as to be civil because I know it is not your intent to break things; Have you really thought this through? I don't want to make sweeping judgements before I see the final product but the way you have it setup I am terrified that you have just broken all missle based frigates (not to mention possibly missle based cruisers as well). Here is a thread where I address the possibility of just this very change and its impact: The Impact of Missle Changes on Frigate Missle Boats Point 1- This makes the kestrel, the breacher, the bombers, and the crow completely USELESS. The crow is now unequivocably the worst interceptor. It cannot match the DOT of any turret based frigate, much less a turret based interceptor (e.g a taranis). Unless light missles are going to hit mwding frigates easily, as long as your are within range when you fire, then all of the above ships are broken. Scenario: Frigates need to be webbed to assure that they are hit with any sort of missle (as they can, unless fired at point blank range). Result: Flying a crow is the same as before except that now when you have a target webbed you fire 1 50 damage missle per launcher per 7.5 seconds. As such, you cannot do damage quickly. Your target in a taranis webs you as you web him. If he webs you first he closes to near optimal range. The taranis pilot squeezes off two volleys in 3 seconds and you die having done 150 damage to his 1150 hp ship. Before you balk that taranis's cannot do this much damage, they can. They can do over 300 damage in a wrecking hit from ONE turret. If anything remotely similiar to this is the case then you need to reconsider missles' role in frigate combat. Point 2- Cruisers are now even more useless than they were before. Cruisers are already too slow to be very useful against battleships, but at least if you had the right combination of ships, you could be effective. Now, however, much like in the case of frigates, the only useful cruisers will be EW cruisers (BBs) and blaster cruisers (blasterraxes). A Caracal lobbing thermal heavy missles at me once every 15 seconds is not a threat and the other cruiser turret types do worthless damage. You will now never see a rupture be useful in larger scale PVP (just one example). Point 3- Quote: The 5% boost in optimal range for hybrid weapons will get increased to 10% for Caldari Gunships while getting swapped out for 5% damage of missiles doing Thermal damage, in details: Didn't we learn the lesson that pigeonwholling races to damage types, or in this case ONE damage type, is a horrible mistake. We have already seen how common it is for people to fit EM and Thermal hardeners to counter Lasers, and now all you have done is group caldari missle boats into that group. One of the only advantages a missle user used to have was that he could vary his damage type at will. Now you have taken that advantage away unless the pilot wishes to ignore his ship bonus and even if he chooses not to the stacking of hardeners might make it so that he does less damage than he used to do. If he chooses to ignore his ship bonus you are providing no incentive for him to skill up to be better with a specific ship. The end result is that you are making projectiles, with their 3 damage types, even better than they are now (which does not need to happen), and making caldari missle ships even worse (which also did not need to happen). As it stands now, unless you drastically increased base cruise missle damage over your last test value, CMs will have a lower upper speed potential than they did under your old proposed system. Furthermore, caldari BSs lose the missle damage advantage they were going to have. I am thus puzzled as to how these changes in totality (especially coupled with the proposed EW changes and shield tanking nergs) will serve to rebalance Caldari ships and make them as useful in combat as Minmatar or Gallente ships. In the end I just hope this is well thought out, well tested, and WAY more in depth than what was posted. If it is not then by the looks of it you have further gimped the Caldari, made their interceptors useless, made their frigates even more useless and thus directly contradicted the purpose of these changes, especially when one considers that Caldari EW and Caldari Shield Tanking is soon meant to be less effective. The Enemy's Gate is Down
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:29:00 - [59] Looks good Tom. I've noticed a lot of people whining about how they wont be able to use cruise missiles or torps with their current loadout because they wont be able to fit Siege Launchers but I've always thought that being able to use cruise and torps for frigate or cruiser level fitting requirements was unbalanced. I think that would especially be true with the new Caldari missile bonus. Just donÆt forget to increase the speed on Defender Missiles to compensate for the new Missile Navigation skill. They are bad enough as it isà Oh, and to all the Raven peopleà give me a break. 425mm Railguns almost use the same amount of CPU as a Seige Launcher and you get 50 more CPU then Megathrons. You donÆt see me whining because I have trouble fitting 6 425mm Railguns on a Megathron without co-processors or RCUs do you?
Rahzelk	Posted - 2004.05.10 21:32:00 - [60] Like all overhaul, people will react to it... I think these change will be interesting. Don't forget they are discussing for day when it comes to change such balance mechanics... so I think they already have evaluate pro and cons for each of your argument and they probably have imagine scenarios that lead to the tunning they are now proposing.. stop whine, let's give a test to these settings, i'll bet it will by far give more balance to the whole game. (elegance-corp.net) Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.

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