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TomB
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:09:00 -
[1]
Missiles, launchers and the Caldari Race are in development of reconstruction with a prototype of proposed changes in few areas:
Pt. 1 Missiles
Rockets, Light, Heavy and Cruise missiles will be increased in speed and decreased some what in flight time. The missiles will cross almost same distance by base but at greater speed and will be able to fly even further when increasing new missile navigation and missile bombardment skills for further increased speed and flight time.
Skills for all missile types will increase damage of the missiles instead of giving a boost to agility, flight time or others.
The cost of manufacturing missiles will be greatly reduced.
Pt. 2 Launchers
All launchers will get greatly increased in Capacity allowing players to shoot missiles for longer time without reloads (up to 10 minutes by base, more reloading will be needed with missile launcher operation skill as it increases the Rate Of Fire of the launcher). Launchers will also get limited to types of missiles they can carry. Details are right here:
Rocket Launcher
Missile Types: rockets, defenders
Rate Of Fire: 10 secs
Capacity: 0.6 (60 rockets)
Standard Launcher
Missile Types: guided light, FoF light, defenders
Rate Of Fire: 15 secs
Capacity: 1.2 (40 light missiles)
Heavy Launchers
Missile Types: guided heavy, FoF heavy, defenders
Rate Of Fire: 20 secs
Capacity: 4.5 (30 heavy missiles)
Siege Launchers
Missile Types: guided cruise, FoF cruise, torpedos, defenders
Rate Of Fire: 20 secs
Capacity: 9 (30 cruise missiles)
Assault Launcher will get increased in power and CPU usage to cruiser / battleship module.
Missile Types: guided light, FoF light, defender
Rate Of Fire: 10 secs
Capacity: 1.8 (60 light missiles).
Pt. 3 The Caldari Race
The 5% boost in optimal range for hybrid weapons will get increased to 10% for Caldari Gunships while getting swapped out for 5% damage of missiles doing Thermal damage, in details:
Condor: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range and 5% max shield hitpoints per Caldari skill level.
Heron: 5% to thermal missile damage and 5% more target range per Caldari skill level.
Griffin: 5% to thermal missile damage and 5% more CPU output per Caldari skill level.
Kestrel: 5% to thermal missile damage and 5% missile launcher rate of fire per Caldari skill level.
Merlin: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range and 5% hybrid turret damage per Caldari skill level.
Raptor: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range and 5% hybrid turret damage per Caldari skill level.
Raptor: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range and 5% missile launcher rate of fire per Caldari skill level.
Osprey: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range per Caldari skill level.
Blackbird: 5% to thermal missile damage Caldari skill level.
Caracal: 5% to thermal missile damage Caldari skill level.
Moa: 10% to hybrid turret optimal range per Caldari skill level.
Scorpion: 10% to missile velocity and 5% max shield hitpoints per Caldari skill level.
Raven: 10% to missile velocity and 5% missile launcher rate of fire per Caldari skill level.
BIG END NOTE: This is step one in missile changes in progress, mentioned before and currently in tuning on the development server is physics changes to missile agility and how they keep track of targets at close and long range, making it so that the bigger missiles guide better at long range but not as well at close range (similar to how long range battleship turrets track frigates at long range).
Addon because of much debating:
The damage output for various frigates and cruisers will get lowered, mainly because they were overpowered. Kestrel example can take out 2x frigates in 1 volloy of 2 cruise missiles at each, Caracal can beat any other cruiser out there with ease. These ships clearly don't cost as much as a battleship that they can take out in few numbers.
With these changes the damage output for their light and heavy missiles will be increased incase you don't see it:
Kestrel (40K isk)
Light Thermal Missiles base 50 damage
LvL 5 Standard Missiles = 50 * 1.25 = 62.5
LvL 5 Caldari Frigate = 62.5 * 1.25 = 78.125 per missile
LvL 5 Missile Launcher Operation = cleans 4 launchers with 160 missiles in 450 seconds
160 x 78.125 = 12500 thermal damage in 7.5 minutes without reloads
Caracal (3-5 mill isk)
Heavy Thermal Missiles = 150 damage
LvL 5 Heavy Missiles = 150 * 1.25 = 187.5
LvL 5 Caldari Cruiser = 187.5 * 1.25 = 234.375
LvL 5 Missile Launcher Operation = cleans 5 launchers with 150 missiles in 450
150 x 234.375 = 35156.25 thermal damage in 7.5 minutes without reloads
These ships will still be with the most damaging ships within their size class and cheaper in expense than before.
"Cruisers being useless now" will be dealt with in another manner, rather than giving them weapons designed to destroy battleships.
6X Siege Launchers on Raven: is possible, but sacr
2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything. |
Geoff W
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:20:00 -
[2]
you have raptor twice,
sounds good btw :)
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Jadrut
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jadrut on 10/05/2004 19:22:04
2nd post!
looks good to me
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Ukiah
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:21:00 -
[4]
So, not only are you removing Cruise missiles from frigates, but from cruisers as well?
*boggle*
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Keft Lock
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:22:00 -
[5]
Frigate Missle boats are useless after this change.
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:29:00 -
[6]
Looks good. 10% range sounds more on par with the gallente's 5% damage. Will the range bonus changes also apply to the typhoon (5% range bonus is pretty crap for any ship)?
Also, any comments as to why restricting the bonus for missiles to one damage type and why that damage type was thermal?
Quite a shame that there's no caldari gun-battleship, that 10% range bonus would've made for a hell of a sniper boat.
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Andrew Jade
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Andrew Jade on 10/05/2004 19:33:24
yeah these changes will reduce the use of frigates. If you allowed frigates to still equip heavy missiles it would be alright.
standard launcher ; up to heavy missiles
heavy launcher; up to cruise missiles
seige launcher ; up to torps
Would work far better. This would still allow frigates to hit hard, and also allow cruisers to take part. This makes frigates and cruisers rather useless again. Except for jamming and warp/webying.
-Aj-
WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Teeth on 10/05/2004 19:32:40
Ooooh... wait did I read this right?
No cruise/torpedoes for cruisers and under? Ouch.
I guess with the changes to skills adding damage, heavies will become a lot more effective, will have to check it out.
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0verkill
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:35:00 -
[9]
Sucks for 3/4 of battleship loadouts that use missles to as most can't use seige as they take too much cpu.
0verkill
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean we aren't out to get you.
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fluffle
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:35:00 -
[10]
mostly these look like nice changes, it's gonna make things interesting :)
i do somehow feel that cruisers should be able to use cruise still, but i can imagine the balance problems...
* fluffle pets her taranis... no more cruise to the face for you, my pretty :D
--
Go Here if my sig looks grey, and next time use a good browser.
This is the way things have to be, the wise men wisely said.
So we believed... but some did not,
and though we never knew, the wise men wisely had them shot. |
LilYoda
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:36:00 -
[11]
If I read that right, that means Frigates won't be able to launch anything above a light missile.
I don't really mind that, except for the future bomber class.
I hope they'll have the CPU/power to mount at least a heavy launcher, cause a bomber throwing light missiles seems a bit weird to me.
Oh, as long as I'm here, defenders only go out when you're fired at. Adding a function where defenders would defend at least your drones would be cool. Having it defend your gangmates would be awesome.
Same goes for FoF, but I guess that would bring more inbalance, so defender only would be sweet
<qw> There's something sitting on my ship :P
<Helforian> space herpes?
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Hakera on 10/05/2004 19:45:47
Hmmm, maybe heavy launchers should be able to equip cruise at least still otherwise taking on a BS will be tougher in cruisers.
If the cost is reduced groovy I guess, I use a lot of missles.
Is it possble that some of the minmatar missle boats could get some bonuses looking at since minmatar are 50% reliant on missles?
Also - what about missles hitting objects in their path, this is a big problem in empire space and causes more ship deaths to sentries/concord than players imo. Is it possible to get missles to pass through to their target or avoid non targets using collision avoidance?
On another issues, will bombers be able to fire cruise as they should be able to 'bomb' and maybe get a bonus to missle launcher volume/capacity as their bonus?
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Sun Ra
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:39:00 -
[13]
sigh, ravens pretty much need heavy launchers and your removing cruise for them, think u need to rethink all of this
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Corison Azura
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:45:00 -
[14]
From my play style, this would be very bad.
The Capacity change is nice, but really not a concern. I often use faster launchers with lower cap, simply because it's faster to reload a launcher then wait for a heavier one to be ready to fire again. The new ROF's may change this but it will depend on implementation.
Anything less then a BS becomes useless as far as missiles go with this change. Heavies are the first really effective missile and even they don't cut it against medium cruisers.
Frigates need to be fire at least heavy missiles, and Cruisers need to be able to use Cruise.
Why the specific damage type for race bonus? Thermal to me is the worst damage type and I never use it, so the bonuses are pointless. Why not just do a normal damage boost of x%?
Why not adjust some of the missiles themselves?
Give Lights a much higher turning rate and travel speed but reduce the flight time. This Makes them effective against drones and frigates in close. Rockets could have one second flight times with very high speeds?
Heavies could be a middle ground, good against distant frigates or heavy ships.
Cruise Missiles and Torps have lower turn rates but maintain high speed and duration. Basically bombardment weapons against Cruisers and Battleships, though you would need to keep a high "trigger" range so they still hit. Perhaps a couple second delay after launch before the missile goes "active"
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farfrael
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:45:00 -
[15]
Mostly good, though the "no heavy missiles for frigates" worries me
The various bonus given to the various caldari ships seem too complicated, how are you going to know which ship gets which bonus ?
Besides, on a RP level, i thought that caldari were the masters of missiles. A "10% to hybrid turret optimal range" for a Moa seems weird.
On a side note, could you update the description of various skills to reflect what they REALLY do ? (negociation, indus, learning to name a few). Having to hunt through guides and patches changes just to be able to know what a skill really does is not fun.
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Mjolnir
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:48:00 -
[16]
Will there be more defenses against missles too? No matter what the changes its hard to stop missile spam esp when they are moving faster now.
Which PA character are you? |
Blazyon
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:49:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Blazyon on 10/05/2004 19:53:32
Interesting except you are essentially removing cruise missiles from most battleships as well (and torps for that matter). If this is the intention, well erm, interesting.
I like the idea, as it puts a serious crimp on any missile boater, making them actually act as a missile boat only capable of long range combat, cuz up close they won't have the CPU/grid to mount defense.
However, this will place a severe preference on gunboats, as we all know that while the missiles might go 150km, it's doubtful they'll ever hit.
Should be interesting to test on chaos, you'll need fleet testing on it though also.
**EDIT** I noticed the 10second ROF on the rocket launcher, is this a typo? I hope so, cuz 1 rocket every 10 seconds.. pointless to use it at all :).
**EDIT**
Pain is an object of relativity. |
Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:50:00 -
[18]
WTS Typhoon
sigh 
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Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:51:00 -
[19]
LOL ! heavy lunchers .. aint no cruise :/ i will not buy a raven now lol
Centuria > whoot?
Centuria > you stalking me? :)
--
Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL
--
http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
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Last Starfighter
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:52:00 -
[20]
sounds fair enough, but balancing would require removal of cruisers ability to use heavy drones perhaps?
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Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:54:00 -
[21]
I think these changes look great.. 
Just what is needed to balance things..
Now on the subject of bonus per lvl...
What about giving some of the gallenten cruisers some loving.. Right now I am thinking about the thorax, but its not the only one.. Many other ships have two bonuses per lvl, while the thorax only have for hybrid turret damage.. Its good with the extra damage, but really.. It cant use missiles, and that it seems pushes it back.. What I would suggets was adding some bonuses to drones instead.. After all the Gallenten are the drone masters, so it would only make sense.. Maybe extra range, or more damage per lvl. 
-------------
Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
fluffle
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:55:00 -
[22]
perhaps allow the "missile boat" frigs and cruisers the ability to fit a heavier missile type: eg kestrel/breacher/crucifier can fire heavies, and caracals can fire cruise? otherwise they're going to be seriously ineffective...
--
Go Here if my sig looks grey, and next time use a good browser.
This is the way things have to be, the wise men wisely said.
So we believed... but some did not,
and though we never knew, the wise men wisely had them shot. |
Jeran
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:59:00 -
[23]
I don't know what to think over all but I think the loss of cruise missiles to the cruiser class will be tough. I don't know. Not that I use cruise missiles that much right now with my Moa but I can should the need arise, which is great. But with this change some of the missions I'd be able to do would be nigh impossible.
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Power
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Power on 10/05/2004 20:07:53
So theres no point using heavy launchers on the raven anymore and not enough cpu to fit a full set of seige..
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Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:05:00 -
[25]
This game is getting worse by the second.. first cap relay nerf... then missile nerf... Just stop it damn u ...
Centuria > whoot?
Centuria > you stalking me? :)
--
Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL
--
http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
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Seventh Son
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:08:00 -
[26]
I like the look of the changes, I use siege launchers on my Raven so it wont do to much to me but I think cruisers should be able to use either torps or cruise missiles with slower launch rates anad reduced ammo storage for going after battle ships. Unless of course your making it so that cruisers can carry siege launchers. Min get their bonuses to projectiles like the gal get their bonuses to hybrids so I dont think there is a need to adjust there settings. I would also think there should be a larger mine able to be launched my a cruiser lvl ship. Say cruisers deploy the mine and the mine carries like a torp or cruise missile charge and when a target gets with in range the "mine" fires on the target then self destructs. This would allow a mining group or even a pirate group to set up a proper defense/ambush area. If the unit is not picked up before you leave the system it becomes inactive and is no long able to operate allowing for someone to come and scoop it up. That would help even the field a bit.
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Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:11:00 -
[27]
The thing I have a problem with is that some of the caldari ships will now have 15% bonuses.
And what about the Typhoon? Its only got 5% optimal range on its guns, why not make it 10? Or better yet, get rid of that bonus and put in something else.
In addition, the 10% missile velocity on the caldari battleships is quite unbalancing, why not just 5%?
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Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:14:00 -
[28]
:o ohh ohh i want more power grid on my tempest so i can fit 6 guns with no probs
Centuria > whoot?
Centuria > you stalking me? :)
--
Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL
--
http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
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KR SUN
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:14:00 -
[29]
1) Missles will fly faster by base and even more faster with skills. So there is no real chance to time smartbombs or defenders for that matter to avoid missles.
Question: how do ppl supposed to defend themselfs against missles? Even now with lag/not instant activation of modules its very hard to time smartbombs if missle doesnt make a circle around the ship or player is distracted with other activities which is most of the time happens in a fleet battle. And defenders just dont have time to hit the enemy missles because they miss them initialy and start flying around and around before they hit, so i expect defenders will be even more useless since the flytime of the enemy missles will be shorter.
2) Missles production will cost much less and missle type will be restricted to by the type of launcher, capacity of launchers will be extended.
Ok, so missles will become sort of the gun, with cheap ammunition which as we know already will be hitting enemy much faster, never miss if in range and hardly avoidable. Why use turrets then? Lets say u can put 150mm rail or light missles. Light missles 50hp damage on 25 km. 150mm rail with irons does how much? Like 20 hp of damage? And on 25km like 40% of misses for 150mm rail?
Same with 250mm rail vs heavy missles and so on.
3) Extended capacity. Hm nice - we dont have to reload anymore. But the real beauty of the missles is that u can chose any type of damage and keep same optimal range. This is the cornerstone of the missles - first u fire emp then u fire exp, exp gets blocked u fire thermal. With largre capacity of the launchers ppl will be forced to use one type of the missle (damage type that is) which is ok for 10(!) minutes of battle. So every1 will shoot thermal and kinetic. Forget the em and exp. Forget the tactical choices of the damage type - just click fire and watch the launchers fire on auto for 10 minutes.
4) As far as I get it u can't load lights or rockets in a heavy launcher and up. If, as you say in a big end note, the missle physics will be tuned that bigger missles will have problems with smaller targets in closer ranges, u practicaly force ppl to choose between launchers as they choose between turrets - either good at close range or long range.
But since u have to make this choice in complete darkness about next combat. So it will be more like a bet, and since rockets are joke and light missles might not be any good at range closer then 10km ppl will put either heavy launchers for crusers and bs or put smartboms hopping to get enemy too close.
I would suggest to make lauchers in sizes, the way we have turrets in sizes, that will solve a lot of problems:
Small size for frigs:
a)Very fast launcher - a lot of rockets or few lights or defs.
b) Decent speed lauchers - double of rockets or dozen of lights
c) Slow launcher - one heavy, or lots of lights.
Med size for crusers:
a) Very fast launcher - one heavy or lots of lights.
a) Decent fast - few heavies or double of lights.
b) Slow - lots of havies or one cruise/torp.
......And so on for bs. Once you have sizes of launchers as sizes of turrets you can play with fitting, capacity, load type way better then now. Now there is no real choice of launcher for a ship - look that u can fit. And this will be one size fits all.
PS
Why caldari missle ship get bonuses only to thermal damage? Why dont just remove all other missles with no thermal damage. Whats the point of thermal-only bonus? To get no real choice of the missle type? 15% bonus on level 3 and, practicaly, thermal missle = any other type of missle no matter what r u shooting at, shields or armour.
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Ronin Hybonashi
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Posted - 2004.05.10 20:16:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ronin Hybonashi on 10/05/2004 20:42:13
hmm strange that quote turned into a post, well got rid of that
Any way I like the look of of the changes, and as we all know it will be refined and optimized as they go. They are also probably looking at other ships but have not posted planned changes. I mean if you really wanted an even field it would go that only amarr ships have lasers, caldari missiles, gal hybrids, and min projectiles. Plain jane it wouldnt be right, the caldari gun bonuses have always been weaker because they are bonuses for range not damage like other races. Their primary weapon is missiles so that explains why they are getting the bonuses to missiles.
Just like the Meg gets bonuse to hybrid damage. Seeing as you can not mount a mod that affects damage or firing speed of the launcher it makes a bit more sense for them to do a bonus by skills as well. Just like every other weapon type.
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