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Savlin
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.15 20:25:00 -
[121]
Got it, thx for enlightning me.
guess I owe ccp an apologie.
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Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.16 01:05:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 16/06/2008 01:14:59
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 16/06/2008 01:07:20
Before I settled in China I travelled most of my life for biz. Drizit and others have made good points and provided some anecdotal evidence regarding what its' like to live in many non-western vs western countries. On the passport thing I think they would be surprised to hear that in the years I have been here that my passport has only been asked for at customs points of entry except once... I was on a bus and they were looking for a 'lost' foreigner...hehe.
Most countries are far less understanding of foreigners or allow them the freedom China does. I've said many times, including in this thread, that about the only way to get into trouble here is to hurt people or be actively seditious against the gov. I'm not going to get into all the reasons its at least as free here as any western country but lets just say they are still developing and doing it faster and better than most western 'democracies' have historically done. They should be given some slack and people should realize what a tuff job they have both individually and socially and at least give them credit for how far they have come.
But don't expect to understand a completely different mindset and set of paradigms when you look at them. It will take you some time... but understand that tho the processes are diff the outcome is the same or better the majority of the time for the average guy. Don't go looking for juvenile delinquency statistics for instance... they are much more socially oriented than us... it will be listed as school related crime unless disbursed by a westerner. Almost everything here has that kind of twist and you won't get it till you get that. They are happy for the most part, like what they have, and are proud of what they are doing... and justifiably so. Giving them grief for not accomplishing in 20yrs what took most western nations 200yrs will only make them think you are unreasonable... and with many younger and more 'westernised' youth... simply angry. Go figger.
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Hellspawn666
Master Miners
Intruders.
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:07:00 -
[123]
Well from what i can see theres no issue with it being not allowed by chinese law, saying that there are a few issues that come to mind. There is alot of racism against the chinese server on the TQ server since many seem to associate the problem of macro mining and isk selling with Chinese players, which i personally think if pretty unfair.
As for your friends who want to play the game etc but cant find a way to pay im assuming you paid with a way they cant, like a US credit card or somthing? If thats the case then surely you could help them out initially buying the game for them and then they can pay the monthly fee via GTC which could be brought by isk or assumbly you could buy them with cinenese currency from a third party?
Also im not sure how the great firewall works but if it bans you off certain messaging sites temporarily for saying certain words of phrases then what would stop people typing those in local to log the guy out once they tackled a chinese player?
Personally i dont have any issue with you and your friends playing but i do have a pretty selfish dislike to allowing chinese players on TQ because im afraid of what it might do the server populations and i already think eve is too full when i compair it to how fun it used to be a few years ago when you wouldnt constantly run into a gank squad every few jumps.
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Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.17 03:37:00 -
[124]
You are pretty much right on all counts there Hellspawn. I do pay w/a US cc and legally and from a technical standpoint there isn't any reason that exists or couldn't be simply solved regarding playing from mainland China. Many already do including myself. Sry for takin so long to answer btw ... was outa town doin proposals.
The only place you missed the mark a bit was on my intentions here. I'm not looking for a way to just get a few friends on... that would be easy too if I wanted to personally help them. What i'm looking for is some kind of gtc method or something that functionally does the same job and allows folks here to easily pay and play from here. I'm in the process of developing a chain of student based niche cafes' here and i'd even be willing to distribute and sell them if they were available. The only such thing available atm is for the Chinese server only.
Also, I don't think there would be the 'flood of players' or other such probs if something like that were available. For one thing there is a diff pricing structure and many here would prefer the cheaper, 'more Chinese' Chinese version, and/or simply not be able to afford the international version. The other is that most who did prefer the international version would have some english skills, in all likelihood be among the better educated and more welll heeled, and already have experience dealing with other cultures. You might not even notice they are Chinese unless they tell you ... like many who have already posted here. Their interest in farming will be low as well since someone who can afford to play the international version is unlikely to feel a need for 'income' from the game (thats a loss of face all by itself). Also... those who do farm for income usually do so from 'sweat shops' that already exist and are run by folks capable of international transactions. Those folks are already here and would gain nothing from those who could pay independently.
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clonkrieger
Imperium Forces
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:08:00 -
[125]
Edited by: clonkrieger on 17/06/2008 04:08:42
 Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
So what you're basically saying is that by calling it a policy, it's all right to restrict people's freedom of expression. Well, I have some news for you, it doesn't work like that in the western society. I don't need to have cups of tea with the local oppressors to criticise my government. If I want my say I can go out, start a rally, and protest to anything I feel fit. It is my unalienable right as a citizen of a free country to do so, and this right is enshrined within the constitution unalterable by any means. We've seen what happens to people who do that in communist China.
Please don't give me that 'you don't understand China' spiel, it doesn't fly. You wrongly assume a lack of knowledge on my part. What you're basically saying is that if one keeps his mouth shut and put up, the unelected government of China will allow their citizenry the possibility to earn their wage and have a family (within limits BTW). As old a culture as China undoubtedly has, constitutional government based on free elections and freedom of expression has been around for quite some while in western society. All carved out steps in mountainsides notwithstanding, perhaps China would do well to catch up?
Chinese players of EVE are on a separate server because the Chinese government has decided, either in law or in policy, that their citizenry should not be exposed to western thought or argument, preferring instead to feed them their version of events and information, without possibility to recourse or argument.
I don't know what was in your ricebowl today, but I do know this: The Tibetan government may not be ideal or even democratic, but it was their own. Currently they have their internationally acknowledged head of state in exile while Chinese tanks and guns drive through the streets of Lhasa, either incarcerating or outright killing those who disagree to the Chinese invasion forces. Not to mention total repression of their own religion. These are indisputable facts. China did invade a sovereign country, and China does currently oppress the Tibetans. Facts! I personally fail to see how China telling anyone that they did that for their own good has any bearing on anything. I was wrong, it is wrong, and no matter how much Chinese propaganda you want to reiterate, it will always be wrong.
Perhaps you'd do well to remember that you're currently not talking to Chinese of the 'put up and shut up' mentality, but to free citizens with open access to a variety of news and information services not restrained by government interference. Being branded a dissident where I live if worn as a badge of honour, not a one-way ticket to a hard labour camp.
No idea what country you are from... but I'd love to see you go out and rally about things like immigrantion and race in the US or UK and I bet you any money you will find yourself locked up :P Chinese government is not as harsh as western people are taught. And its no different on how oppressive the US & UK governments were in the past, and even of today. You make me laugh, but ohwell. If you live in the EU, then well, ahahaha, wont be long until the EU is anti-democratic, and so am I *I hate the EU*.
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Returned after being absent.
Updating... |
Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:31:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 17/06/2008 04:35:23
Originally by: Red Dhalia
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 14/06/2008 00:30:52
To Hardin... thx for some reason inserted... hard to see so much misinformation taken for fact. Glad I voted for ya
To Whisper... thx for the link and it definitely matches up with most of what I know about CCP in China and raises a question or two.
1) Do you have an equivalent to the pass9 system operating here? And if so whats the main contact point here?
2) I know the pricing is diff but can those game time cards sold on the mainland be used to play from the internatiaonal port on Tranquility?
I personally pay using an american cc. My wife and I are doing a test location cafe (not internet) using some new billboard and website marketing techniques and have considered EVE as a touchpoint for both the Chinese game and the international. This will be a student marketing niche w/many locations once the test site phase is over. I'm very interested in some details concerning info along those lines.
It's been a bit since CCP Whisper answered so I quoted myself on the question about his answer. I know a more full answer might involve contractual or biz reasons why it can't be disclosed publicly. If so they can contact me through my mains on either account or inform me how a petition for an answer needs to be routed. I'm willing to go email or skype as well. I am a bit of a forum puppy but not a puppy when it comes to biz. Many answers come to mind that would satisfy or cool my heels on this but i'm a persistant kind of guy so i'll keep going till I get an answer. I'll get it one way or another but it would be nice if CCP would help me just cut to the chase.
Hopefully this thread is old enough we won't get too many more trolls, flamers, off topic stuff, and so on and can just figger this out.
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Zurrar
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration
Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:37:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Red Dhalia
I'm an american who lives in China and plays the regular server here... bout a year now. I have probs with 'portal management' among other things but hey... I usually get in some good play. A lot of Chinese would like to as well. Believe it or not they are not all credit farmers and a lot of decent people in the bunch.
My question is what is the 'real' reason CCP isn't here making the main server more available? Don't give me the nonsense about China kill people/things or anything like that either. I just wasted some dudes in a Chinese game and many won't let you kill anything till you pay. Other 'reasons' i've heard are just as ludicrous. I can think of a few possibly legit reasons but nothing I think can't be overcome. Soooo.... CCP... why is it so hard for my Chinese buds to play with everyone else? The 'real' reason... please?
If I'm reading this right,
China likes to keep tabs on what its population is doing. In order to play on most chinese MMo's you need to have a citizens ID. That is the reason China has its own servers for every MMo out there. Another reason the Isk farmers aren't Chinese.
If this has been said, sorry... I'm not reading 5 pages of bs.
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Asuka Smith
The Defias Brotherhood
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:40:00 -
[128]
Chinese people suck! FIN
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Mr Li
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:09:00 -
[129]
It's not so much that running a Tranq style server in China is 'against the law', it's just that if CCP wants to do business here they need to play by the local rules, and they are different.
on a side note about being Foreign in China: It's pretty awesome. period. Its cheap, most of the people are really curious about you, and if you speak the language (even if its not very good) they will meet you halfway (except in Shanghai sometimes...they like their local dialect a lot and really is the Paris of the East in more than one way...but I digress).
For those who are stating that the absolute bottomline is Politics, you're sort of right and sort of wrong. It's too easy to logon to Tranq from here, the only restricting factors I can see would be lag, language and possibly, for college students, cost.
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Cyne Spurr
MacroIntel
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:37:00 -
[130]
Originally by: clonkrieger
Edited by: clonkrieger on 17/06/2008 04:08:42
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
So what you're basically saying is that by calling it a policy, it's all right to restrict people's freedom of expression. Well, I have some news for you, it doesn't work like that in the western society. I don't need to have cups of tea with the local oppressors to criticise my government. If I want my say I can go out, start a rally, and protest to anything I feel fit. It is my unalienable right as a citizen of a free country to do so, and this right is enshrined within the constitution unalterable by any means. We've seen what happens to people who do that in communist China.
Please don't give me that 'you don't understand China' spiel, it doesn't fly. You wrongly assume a lack of knowledge on my part. What you're basically saying is that if one keeps his mouth shut and put up, the unelected government of China will allow their citizenry the possibility to earn their wage and have a family (within limits BTW). As old a culture as China undoubtedly has, constitutional government based on free elections and freedom of expression has been around for quite some while in western society. All carved out steps in mountainsides notwithstanding, perhaps China would do well to catch up?
Chinese players of EVE are on a separate server because the Chinese government has decided, either in law or in policy, that their citizenry should not be exposed to western thought or argument, preferring instead to feed them their version of events and information, without possibility to recourse or argument.
I don't know what was in your ricebowl today, but I do know this: The Tibetan government may not be ideal or even democratic, but it was their own. Currently they have their internationally acknowledged head of state in exile while Chinese tanks and guns drive through the streets of Lhasa, either incarcerating or outright killing those who disagree to the Chinese invasion forces. Not to mention total repression of their own religion. These are indisputable facts. China did invade a sovereign country, and China does currently oppress the Tibetans. Facts! I personally fail to see how China telling anyone that they did that for their own good has any bearing on anything. I was wrong, it is wrong, and no matter how much Chinese propaganda you want to reiterate, it will always be wrong.
Perhaps you'd do well to remember that you're currently not talking to Chinese of the 'put up and shut up' mentality, but to free citizens with open access to a variety of news and information services not restrained by government interference. Being branded a dissident where I live if worn as a badge of honour, not a one-way ticket to a hard labour camp.
No idea what country you are from... but I'd love to see you go out and rally about things like immigrantion and race in the US or UK and I bet you any money you will find yourself locked up :P Chinese government is not as harsh as western people are taught. And its no different on how oppressive the US & UK governments were in the past, and even of today. You make me laugh, but ohwell. If you live in the EU, then well, ahahaha, wont be long until the EU is anti-democratic, and so am I *I hate the EU*.
Having been active in various protests and rallies,I can say with some certainty that you will not get arrested for for demonstrating immigration or race.
We have a long tradition of freedom of speach (and the responicbilities that come with it) but there are a few places where this can be effected (you have to apply before you can rally outside parliment for example).
The only way you will get locked up is if the protest starts to become out of hand.
I would hardly say we have had an oppressive government..not in recent history, certainly not when compared to what were socialy accepted norms of the time.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:01:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Brunn
Originally by: Hardin
So cut the guy some slack please.
i have no problem on how ppl live in china, its their country so they know better than me.
what i gets me ****ed of is the "guy" saying that tibete "deserved" their fate, and that they are better off, no nation in the world has the right to decide that for another nation.
'Cept the USA and GB, off course.
...
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Billy Sastard
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:02:00 -
[132]
I really hate contributing to political 'discussions' such as this, but I have to point something out concerning the following:
Quote:
...I'd love to see you go out and rally about things like immigrantion and race in the US or UK and I bet you any money you will find yourself locked up :P...
My point pertains to the US only, as I know nothing of the UK's policy.
Anyhow, in the US we have this thing called The Bill of Rights that is an integral part of our government. In this bill of rights exists a set of 'amendments'. The very first of which protects the citizens right to assemble and/or protest whatever they please.
I am not sure about the UK, but in the US, as long as you are doing so peacefully, you are not going to get locked up for protesting.
-=^=-
My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep. |
Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:01:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 17/06/2008 19:01:53
Despite what some trolls and flamers have tried to make it this is not a thread about politics and most of this 'information' being presented about China by these flamers is the stuff of urban legend and even things with a tad of truth are at least 10-20 yrs out of date. You don't need an id number to play games here or for much of anything else any more than you need a social security number in the states. Of course you don't get locked up for 'peaceful' demonstrations... here or any other reasonably civilised country. Of course you do get locked up if you are looting, burning and killing innocent people like what happened here recently (I don't suppose CNN reported that part... or mb you just didn't pay attention). Lastly.... I apologize for ever responding to any of these flamers and trolls because all I wanted and all this thread is about is the answer to a simple question.
Why don't you guys just let it rest. Many people who live here or have spent time here have posted in disagreement to all the trash talk and not one person who has actually ever set foot here has agreed with the trash talk. Its obvious you people who want to slam China couldn't care less about the opionions of anyone with real experience or knowledge about what they are talkin about so lets just agree to disagree and forget it. Maybe the question will get answered if the thread isn't made a place no one can speak w/out getting flamed by people who don't actually even matter and think things are true just because they fell out of their face.
Gettin tired of comin here to check for an answer and seeing half a dozen post givin bad info that no one who knows this place and these people buys for a second. Please... go peddle it someplace someone will buy it.
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Janet Marshall
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:18:00 -
[134]
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Hi. I'm the associate producer whose responsibilities include keeping an eye on Serenity and making sure it gets its share of development resources from our team in Iceland. In China we work with a business parter, CDC Games, who is licensed to operate EVE Online, much like Blizzard works with The9 to operate World of Warcraft in the PRC.
We operate a separate server because it is part of the prerequisites that allow us to have a business in China. While searching for information to link people to about the government regulations, I stumbled across this article about how Blizzard operate in China. The summary in that is pretty much spot on. Can't really add much to what is quoted there, except that we're pretty happy how things are developing for EVE in China. We have slow but steady growth and an engaged community and things are going well.
Kinda like the devs were engaged here, and then decided they should just stop posting one day.
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Kiran Lee
Shaw Brothers Productions
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:45:00 -
[135]
Remember also that China tried to reduce its overall population by limiting families to only allowing 1 female to be birthed.
We see how well that worked 
Its sad but China is China.
It doesnt look like a revolution is happening anytime soon either. . .
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Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.17 20:27:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 17/06/2008 20:29:08
Horse puckey... they never reduced the pop and the 'one child policy' had nothin to do w/the sex of the child... that was India... and you can have all the kids you want here as long as you can pay the extra taxes.
And btw... their 'revolution' was when they kicked out the europeans and americans who had 'spheres of influence' there that ran the country into the dirt for a hundred years n all but enslaved most of m.
And before you start yappin about me bein some warm fuzzy pro Chinese you should know that i'm just pro human and truth... at your age I was a marine during a lil thing called Nam and have since figgered out that everything not american is not by nature 'evil' or 'primitive'. You might consider takin a look at the concept.
Get a grip... better yet go buy a history book.
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Squasar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.17 23:33:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Red Dhalia
Edited by: Red Dhalia on 17/06/2008 20:29:08
Horse puckey... they never reduced the pop and the 'one child policy' had nothin to do w/the sex of the child... that was India... and you can have all the kids you want here as long as you can pay the extra taxes.
And btw... their 'revolution' was when they kicked out the europeans and americans who had 'spheres of influence' there that ran the country into the dirt for a hundred years n all but enslaved most of m.
And before you start yappin about me bein some warm fuzzy pro Chinese you should know that i'm just pro human and truth... at your age I was a marine during a lil thing called Nam and have since figgered out that everything not american is not by nature 'evil' or 'primitive'. You might consider takin a look at the concept.
Get a grip... better yet go buy a history book.
If you go buy a better English slang book.
China is Chine and will always be its own entity. They don't operate by anyones rules but their own. Just look at the environmental issue there. They're shutting down factories around Bejing to try to cut down on the smog before the Olympics. They won't do anything until an ozone hole roasts them all like peking duck. Even if the entire world went green as of right now, the "global warming" would still increase because of them.
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Red Dhalia
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Posted - 2008.06.19 03:21:00 -
[138]
I don't suppose you have ever heard the old saying.... "Its better to be quiet and let everyone think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"?
Do you really think that the horde of investors, venture capitalists, international/multinational corps, and others coming here to do biz are succeeding w/out sound demographic/infrastructural information and statistics? The fact is that your statement and most of the other 'bash China' rhetoric here is in direct conflict with valid information both here and globally. China will surpass the US in the next two years as a global destination of choice for investment and operations precisely because the truth in these issues is pretty much the opposite of your 'opinions'.
It wouldn't surprise me to find that your ignorance is based on peer group fantasies encouraged by the lack of good info and the deliberate dissemination of bad info. There are many who are powerful and profit from keeping you ignorant. The loss of their cultural, financial, and political status would be expensive to them in many ways so the longer you are ignorant the better for them... not you.
But then I must be wrong about that of course. Those guys in the states n europe like that are perfect and would never mislead you geniuses (who disagree about everything even with each other and have fundamentally no facts anyway) who are already quite happy that everthing you think is true (because you thot it) and everything you say is undisputable (because you said it). No way they might be doing that to you and no way you would possibly buy into it... just no way... right?
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Sgt Blade
Save Yourself Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.25 05:09:00 -
[139]
Quote:
China is Chine and will always be its own entity. They don't operate by anyones rules but their own. Just look at the environmental issue there. They're shutting down factories around Bejing to try to cut down on the smog before the Olympics. They won't do anything until an ozone hole roasts them all like peking duck. Even if the entire world went green as of right now, the "global warming" would still increase because of them.
imho that example is bad, the US is just as bad about the whole "global warming" thing if not worse.
also thats assuming "global warming" is actually happening...which it ain't
Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5 |
Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.25 06:22:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Sgt Blade
Quote:
China is Chine and will always be its own entity. They don't operate by anyones rules but their own. Just look at the environmental issue there. They're shutting down factories around Bejing to try to cut down on the smog before the Olympics. They won't do anything until an ozone hole roasts them all like peking duck. Even if the entire world went green as of right now, the "global warming" would still increase because of them.
imho that example is bad, the US is just as bad about the whole "global warming" thing if not worse.
also thats assuming "global warming" is actually happening...which it ain't
Nothing much to add to this thread, except for this statement, for which I will reply:
What's the Worse that Could Happen?
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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