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Interceptor: microwarpdrive vs. afterburner?

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Helen coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:13:00 - [31] Originally by: Alex Shurk Originally by: Helen ...my HG snakes and got my poly rigged crow.... Yeah, you can get away with certain AB setups here, but that's several billion isk worth of implants right there :P Yeah its for catching plexers and deadspace mission *****s. Needed to get above cruise missile damage and its pretty expensive when you got to use a AB. Still should be good once its in place.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Alex Shurk Originally by: Dheorl You can therefore orbit at 500m And then get webbed, and then die a horrible, horrible death. Have you not read anything I've said. With my AB ceptors I fully expect to get webbed. Try hitting a ceptor going 200-250m/s whilst its at 500m using medium guns. Light drones you say, ooh yay, they'll get blown staight out the sky. The fact is ceptors don't die as soon as they hit web range, I hate to burst your bubble that you always have to fit ceptors with a MWD and orbit as fast as you can at max scram range because you just don't.
Athamai	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:20:00 - [33] Originally by: Lord Widman AB = you dead MWD = speedtanking I'll let you weigh the pros and con's :P ^^ He's right. Test it. :) Sig radius doesn't do anything compared to speed.
Recon Three 181st Legion The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:10:00 - [34] Rawr, I just bought a Gistii B-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive. lolAfterburners. I'm BARELY under 9k/ms now. __________
Jethro Amar	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:53:00 - [35] Actually sig radius does EXACTLY the same as speed. Go to tracking guide, set it for 30m radius and 500m/s speed and calculate, then change sig to 150m and speed to 2500m/s. No difference at all when it comes to tracking. Then change sig back to 30m and speed to 1500m (to simulate ab) and you'll notice huge difference. This means MWD gives low tracking evasion, cause it's speed bonus is almost outweighted by sig bonus (almost, cause your speed is further affected by skills etc). AB gives less speed but no signature penalty, so it's better at evading guns. Real life situations differ obviously, as AB won't allow to dictate range and won't give enough velocity to speed tank light missiles.
Maeltstome Suicidal Office Clerks	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:24:00 - [36] I'm reading lots of pointless discussion. Only person who has ever flown a ceptor with an AB and killed things on it as far as ive seen is lyticus, and as a pirates life 2 has shown us, he's an idiot for fitting extenders on a sleipnir and therefore shouldn't be idolised. MWD or GTFO. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Everyone Dies	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Jethro Amar Actually sig radius does EXACTLY the same as speed. Go to tracking guide, set it for 30m radius and 500m/s speed and calculate, then change sig to 150m and speed to 2500m/s. No difference at all when it comes to tracking. Then change sig back to 30m and speed to 1500m (to simulate ab) and you'll notice huge difference. This means MWD gives low tracking evasion, cause it's speed bonus is almost outweighted by sig bonus (almost, cause your speed is further affected by skills etc). AB gives less speed but no signature penalty, so it's better at evading guns. Real life situations differ obviously, as AB won't allow to dictate range and won't give enough velocity to speed tank light missiles. QFT The penalty of the mwd in the tracking guide makes you a big orbiting moon so it's actually better to use AB then mwd.
Pliskkenn Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:47:00 - [38] Originally by: Everyone Dies Originally by: Jethro Amar Actually sig radius does EXACTLY the same as speed. Go to tracking guide, set it for 30m radius and 500m/s speed and calculate, then change sig to 150m and speed to 2500m/s. No difference at all when it comes to tracking. Then change sig back to 30m and speed to 1500m (to simulate ab) and you'll notice huge difference. This means MWD gives low tracking evasion, cause it's speed bonus is almost outweighted by sig bonus (almost, cause your speed is further affected by skills etc). AB gives less speed but no signature penalty, so it's better at evading guns. Real life situations differ obviously, as AB won't allow to dictate range and won't give enough velocity to speed tank light missiles. QFT The penalty of the mwd in the tracking guide makes you a big orbiting moon so it's actually better to use AB then mwd. With a MWD you can 9 times outta 10 avoid being webbed. Except when using an AB, you get caught and webbed to 50m/s. What does the tracking guide say will happen at that speed? ---
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:07:00 - [39] Originally by: Jethro Amar Actually sig radius does EXACTLY the same as speed. Go to tracking guide, set it for 30m radius and 500m/s speed and calculate, then change sig to 150m and speed to 2500m/s. No difference at all when it comes to tracking. Then change sig back to 30m and speed to 1500m (to simulate ab) and you'll notice huge difference. This means MWD gives low tracking evasion, cause it's speed bonus is almost outweighted by sig bonus (almost, cause your speed is further affected by skills etc). AB gives less speed but no signature penalty, so it's better at evading guns. Real life situations differ obviously, as AB won't allow to dictate range and won't give enough velocity to speed tank light missiles. You would be correct, if it weren't for two things: MWDs increase speed by more than they increase signature in some cases. Missiles do not get a damage increase due to signature - if you're doing 7.5km/sec, it doesn't matter how large your sig is, a precision light will do 0 damage. It would be correct to say though, that: MWD increases sig by a factor of 6, and speed by a factor of 10. Therefore orbiting on MWD means they'll have a harder time tracking you - it increases speed by a factor of 3, without increasing the sig at all. But as you also point out, this means little in a world where you get webbed and popped because you can't stay away from a MWDIng cruiser. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lithel Andy Cox Is Full of Shait	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:56:00 - [40] I don't care to read the whole post, but with an AB you will get slower acceleration and worse agility/orbiting capabilities. FYI... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:39:00 - [41] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer This is what is broken with AB vs MWD. You might think that small sig radius should be enough to avoid fire and missiles but speed is a MUCH higher factor that decreases tracking and missile impact ALOT more then sig radius. Thats the way it is and yeah its broken and yeah you need to fit an MWD. Duh, what? The broken part about AB vs MWD is the inability of smaller ships to significantly outpace larger ships fielding a MWD, rendering them unable to mitigate damage by increasing transversal. If your target was stationary, a AB, orbiting at 500m, well, you're not getting seriously hit by cruiser guns. However, your target can simply go MWD in one direction and make you follow, and then you're boned. Whichever bloke thought that AB frigates should be slower then MWD-ing BS is just They just need more speed-boost. The only other way to 'fix' ABs/sig radius is to make gun damage scale down with sig radius very much like missils do... but I don't see that happening. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
d3vo	Posted - 2008.06.17 01:32:00 - [42] Edited by: d3vo on 17/06/2008 01:32:08 my crusader goes 2121m/s. i help point targets in deadspace this is with an ab __________ -_-
Imaos	Posted - 2008.06.17 08:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Cpt Branko The only other way to 'fix' ABs/sig radius is to make gun damage scale down with sig radius very much like missils do... but I don't see that happening. No. The real solution would be to adjust missile explosion velocity and missile speed to the nano age. (And reducing flight time to keep range in check). That way you can only mitigate damage and not avoid it all unless you really spent lots of money on your setup. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Ka Jolo Ministry of Destruction Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 08:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Athena Tarsis 1735 m/s along with a 26.4 sig radius? or 4715 m/s along with a 158.4 sig radius? Consider that a Hammerhead I drone has a base speed of 1400 m/s, we see that the MWD allows the interceptor to outrun drones but the AB does not. Also, the MWD will take only 50% damage from Bloodclaw missiles due to explosion velocity vs. ship velocity, while the AB will take slightly more damage based on explosion radius vs. signature radius; however, it will take missiles longer to catch an interceptor 18 km away going 4715 m/s than one going 1735 m/s at 1 km range; this means many missiles that will hit the AB interceptor will run out of fuel before reaching the MWD interceptor. Next, certain weapons (e.g. blasters) can hit a ship orbiting at 1,000 m but 18 km is out of optimal range + falloff. Finally, the fastest ship in an engagement is able to dictate range--firing at optimal or running away or whatever else is advantageous. Add all these factors together, and I go with MWD any day of the week. Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
tolons mother Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.06.17 09:51:00 - [45] Fly a stiletto and fit one of each. Problem solved.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:45:00 - [46] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/06/2008 16:47:10 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/06/2008 16:46:19 Originally by: Imaos Originally by: Cpt Branko The only other way to 'fix' ABs/sig radius is to make gun damage scale down with sig radius very much like missils do... but I don't see that happening. No. The real solution would be to adjust missile explosion velocity and missile speed to the nano age. (And reducing flight time to keep range in check). That way you can only mitigate damage and not avoid it all unless you really spent lots of money on your setup. Imaos You mean "interceptors shouldn't be able to evade damage ever"? ABs (on a frig, orbit at 500m) are very much fine for speed-tanking most medium turrets even when webbed (yes, even D180s, not sure about electron blasters), as long as the other guy doesn't MWD away in one direction, where he will drop your transversal to 0 and you will die. If your AB-ing inty went 1.75km/s without speed mods, you'd already have a solid chance of evading the damage output of nearly all medium gunships. drones would still be a issue (as would light missiles, heavies don't do much thanks to sig radius differences). Nearly all my PvP Rifters are AB fits (although that is changing now somewhat thanks to MWD-enabled FW plexes, landing 50km off someone in a AB fit means you won't catch him). Anything bigger then light missiles you don't really care about, btw, thanks to sig radius of a inty. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:18:00 - [47] Originally by: Dheorl Try hitting a ceptor going 200-250m/s... It's easy. Missile boats will have no problems whatsoever. All close range guns will do it, and even most low-tier long range guns will do it, especially with some creative piloting. Oh, and a flight of light drones will have you dead before you've killed them all. They don't simply "fall from the sky". You can't engage and avoid a ship and all its drones at the same time as maintaining an efficient high-trans orbit. And to use your line. Try engaging a ceptor at 800-900m/s. With MWDs your sig increases by ~600%, but your speed increases by ~1000%. With ABs your speed increases by ~200%. Guess which one gives you the greater ability to dodge guns. Quote: The fact is ceptors don't die as soon as they hit web range, Yeah, sometimes they die outside it as AC boats nuke them from falloff at ~15km. An inty in web range is a dead inty. It's not doing its job and it's doing nothing for the gang. You're talking ****e.
Spectre3353 The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:30:00 - [48] You guys can squabble about numbers all you want but in actual practice, the person that can dictate the range via speed, webs or other modules during the fight is the one that will: (1) Get themselves into the most advantageous/optimal orbiting position and get the kill or (2) Have the ability to flee the fight and not die I can't think of a single ship I would ever PvP in without a MWD let alone an interceptor. ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:06:00 - [49] Originally by: Alex Shurk Originally by: Dheorl Try hitting a ceptor going 200-250m/s... It's easy. Missile boats will have no problems whatsoever. All close range guns will do it, and even most low-tier long range guns will do it, especially with some creative piloting. Oh, and a flight of light drones will have you dead before you've killed them all. They don't simply "fall from the sky". You can't engage and avoid a ship and all its drones at the same time as maintaining an efficient high-trans orbit. I don't engage missile boats for that reason, also if your honestly saying that a long range medium turret can hit a frig in a fast tight orbit then I really really want acess to whatever guns your using because normal ones sure as hell can't do it. I can tank a flight of light drones for about 2 minutes, easily long enough to kill them in my experience, epsecially seeing as once I've knocked 2 out I can perma tank them. Originally by: Alex Shurk It's not doing its job and it's doing nothing for the gang. You're talking ****e. It's hard to do something for a gang when there isn't a gang there. It's meant purely for solo work.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:10:00 - [50] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/06/2008 16:47:10 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/06/2008 16:46:19 Originally by: Imaos Originally by: Cpt Branko The only other way to 'fix' ABs/sig radius is to make gun damage scale down with sig radius very much like missils do... but I don't see that happening. No. The real solution would be to adjust missile explosion velocity and missile speed to the nano age. (And reducing flight time to keep range in check). That way you can only mitigate damage and not avoid it all unless you really spent lots of money on your setup. Imaos You mean "interceptors shouldn't be able to evade damage ever"? Evade a big portion of the incoming damage. Not just evade all damage like it is possible now (only with enough investment and not just t2). Rigs increased the speed of ships and some of the former usefull mechanics went down the drain as you can fit the ships to more extremes. When missiles at least be able to catch more of the faster ships (still at great reduced damage) it would lead to more diversity. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.

Zirconium Blade Ass Pounding Space Monkeys	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dheorl If I know I'm going to be going into web range against a cruiser such as in my rocket malediction then I fit a AB purely because when in web range the AB will get you a much higher trasnversal. If I'm going to be orbiting outside of web range then it's generally MWD all the way. But a pvp cruiser will kill you within web range. A noob cruiser can be killed in a stationary T1 frig so that's no real argument. AB sucks, even in web range. You try hitting someone going 210m/s at a range of 500m and with a sig of about 25m using cruiser guns. How can you orbit someone when you're only going 210m/s? Smart pilots dont go "Ok, he's webbed. Control-Space"
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Zirconium Blade How can you orbit someone when you're only going 210m/s? Smart pilots dont go "Ok, he's webbed. Control-Space" They dont need to if you are packing a 90% web too... ------------------------------------------------------------------
iudex State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.17 20:20:00 - [53] Depends on what you want to use the inty for. In most cases MWD will be better, but AB is a better choice for faction warfare pve: after few tests it was safer and easier to do lvl 2 or even lvl 3 missions in a ab-crow, while the mwd crow received too much damage on some of the lvl 2 missions, despite of oriting the npc blob with 6-7km/s, so for this particular purpose AB might be a better choice. _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.53 Faction Warfare Rank: Lieutenant Colonel
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:00:00 - [54] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/06/2008 14:00:28 Originally by: Arkios Odymei Originally by: Zirconium Blade How can you orbit someone when you're only going 210m/s? Smart pilots dont go "Ok, he's webbed. Control-Space" They dont need to if you are packing a 90% web too... Fun fact: two AB taranises are going to kill nearly* any cruiser/BC Two MWD taranises just die. *1600mm platerax with small guns or 1600mm Vexor with small guns being exceptions naturally. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hannobaal Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Everyone Dies Originally by: Jethro Amar Actually sig radius does EXACTLY the same as speed. Go to tracking guide, set it for 30m radius and 500m/s speed and calculate, then change sig to 150m and speed to 2500m/s. No difference at all when it comes to tracking. Then change sig back to 30m and speed to 1500m (to simulate ab) and you'll notice huge difference. This means MWD gives low tracking evasion, cause it's speed bonus is almost outweighted by sig bonus (almost, cause your speed is further affected by skills etc). AB gives less speed but no signature penalty, so it's better at evading guns. Real life situations differ obviously, as AB won't allow to dictate range and won't give enough velocity to speed tank light missiles. QFT The penalty of the mwd in the tracking guide makes you a big orbiting moon so it's actually better to use AB then mwd. This is true but it means anything against turrets. Against missiles and drones you only need pure speed. Also, if you can't dictate range you will get webbed and then it won't matter how small your sig radius is. To dictate range you only need pure speed.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:09:00 - [56] Originally by: Hannobaal This is true but it only means anything against turrets. Against missiles and drones you only need pure speed. Well, sig radius helps a lot vs missiles. People using heavies won't hurt you much. Originally by: Hannobaal Also, if you can't dictate range you will get webbed and then it won't matter how small your sig radius is. It does, orbit at 500m, AB on, counterweb target. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:44:00 - [57] Originally by: Dheorl It's hard to do something for a gang when there isn't a gang there. It's meant purely for solo work. Well, that explains why you're failing so spectacularly. Ceptors are gang ships. Tackling bonuses, speed, low dps. Which part of that is screaming "I'M A SOLO GANKER!!!" at you?
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:19:00 - [58] AB's vs MWD's is completely broken. The AB does almost nothing for you while the speed granted by a MWD far outweighs the signature penalty. Basically, MWD is a must have module for PvP.
Spectre3353 The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.06.18 21:17:00 - [59] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/06/2008 14:00:28 Originally by: Arkios Odymei Originally by: Zirconium Blade How can you orbit someone when you're only going 210m/s? Smart pilots dont go "Ok, he's webbed. Control-Space" They dont need to if you are packing a 90% web too... Fun fact: two AB taranises are going to kill nearly* any cruiser/BC Two MWD taranises just die. 1600mm platerax with small guns or 1600mm Vexor with small guns being exceptions naturally. What in the *** are you smoking? Can I have some? ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.18 21:40:00 - [60] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/06/2008 21:43:19 Originally by: Spectre3353 What in the ** are you smoking? Can I have some? I'm smoking the tracking guide and practical knowledge of flying AB-ing frigates for solo piracy. You? Originally by:** Agor Dirdonen If the ship that you're orbiting at 500m has a web AND a neut, it's bye bye inty. You will be able to orbit too fast till your cap runs out. Then your speed drops down so low you're toast fast. Still wrong. Of course, not being able to shoot/keep target dual-webbed WILL kill you, although a small nos might help. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint



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