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Kesper North
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.06.18 20:36:00 -
[31]
A well-researched, well-rounded proposal. Has my vote.
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Dru McCarty
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Posted - 2008.06.18 20:50:00 -
[32]
Agreed. Excellent research.
~ Dru
* Comments are packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. |
MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.18 22:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
Ramblings
Ughhh. A simple tiny fix draws this much of a troll?
Quote:
Arriving at the mission
Unless your in a well tanked turret ship, you don't start firing on frigates or cruisers. You kill the DPS - either starting with the BS's, or any high DPS BCs you can 1-2 volley. The very fact your seriouslly proposing starting a mission by using T2 ammo on frigates demonstrates you either 1) don't know how to play or 2) are trolling.
Quote:
Spider drones - 5kms!!!!
Actually, the stats page I linked you says they move 3kms. Which matters not, as you still can't hit their 27mm signature radius effectively. Thats why your ship has a drone bay.
Quote:
OMG drone agroes oh noz
Learn to use drones without using them. Protip: you can ignore spider drones until the rest of the pocket is dead if you need to. If you are in danger of dying, and an elite frig has you warp disrupted, you don't really care if you loose a coule Hobgoblin II - they just saved your ship. This situation will never occur, except in cases of pilot error.
Quote:
They are fine for PVE!
Your possibly the only person who uses a PVP based weapon in PVE, then claims that horrible, broken stats are excused because you use them to kill spider drones, when 50,000isk worth of drones will do that for all time. Its a pvp weapon. Period, the end.
Quote:
precision cruise are bad for missions, thank god we have broken precision heavies!
........
Quote:
Turret ships can't hit a close orbiting ship!
That Turret Battlehip? The one that cannot hit you because your too close? He just hit you with a 90% web, and then a half second later alpha striked your cruiser. He also had a pack of drones on you, and really did not care in the slightest that you were close.
A Raven (and to lesser Extent, Typhoon) will either hit you for decent damage with cruise, or hit you with torpedos, which will have drastically reduced impact damage due to signature radius problems. Neither one will demonstrate the raw destructive damage of 8 megapulse in your face, or 7 Neutrons, etc.
Quote:
Nanophoon vs. blasterthron
Oh gawd, luls. Nanophoons can't move fast enough to kite a 'thron to death. They aren't agile enough to begin with, and their absolute velocity is still lol. Even in this imaginary world of yours, that nanophoon is shotting 4 cruise missiles (if you even begin to utter the word torpedo, that Thron will 90% web you and *****your face off). Thats not scaring anybody. Thron either waits for backup, or deagresses jumps/docks.
Please, stop trolling in my thread. You either don't know what your talking about, or your some Caldari hater. Either way, please leave now.
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.18 22:41:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Disregarding the fact that the topic is about PVP not PVE i won't coment on the other points you made. But I see a deep sens of you not understanding the issue. First of all the BS ship attacking nano has a slight chance of hitting especialy if the nano pilot does sth wrong while the missile guy has non because speed = immunity to missiles. Second did you read the op's post? I seriously doubt it. The main point of it was to bring the heavy precisions in line with light and cruise nothing more. And if missiles are so great in pvp why do I see mainly turret ships ? Missiles have a lot of drawbacks in the world of nano and some advantages when ships with missiles are nanoed. But missile ships are mainly a caldari thing and caldari ships are not the fastest out there so giving us(the caldari) some slight compensation for not being able to compete for speed seems a good trade don't you think ?
Yes perhaps i carried away too much with PvE. I just wanted to mention that as they are they are very useful for PvE anf reply to the other guy about some things he said on PvE.
The thing is that if we see what the OP says: _______________________________________________ The New Damage % Breakdown at Level V skills:
Precision Heavy û 3000m/s (2000*1.5) 3500m/s: 89.48393168% 4000m/s: 64.11803884% 4500m/s: 36.78794412% 5000m/s: 16.90133154% 5500m/s: 6.217652402% 6000m/s: 1.831563889% 6500m/s: 0.432023947% ___________________________________________
Since the average interceptor orbits at about 4500m/s to 5000m/s
The damage it will be recieving seems to be around 30%. 30% from heavy missiles that are doing about 290 damage each. The 30% of that is around 100 damage. 100 damage x 7 launchers of the Drake = 700 damage per salvo to an orbiting interceptor. Assuming that some of it will be reduced by the natural resistences it will be around 400 damage per salvo. I think it's too much. The Drakes apart of all the rest (the godly tank comes to mind) will be anticeptor pwnmobiles) Consider that even turret cruiser ships will always miss an interceptor orbiting around them at that speed.
Does this seem balanced to you?
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.18 22:56:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Since the average interceptor orbits at about 4500m/s to 5000m/s
The damage it will be recieving seems to be around 30%. 30% from heavy missiles that are doing about 290 damage each. The 30% of that is around 100 damage. 100 damage x 7 launchers of the Drake = 700 damage per salvo to an orbiting interceptor. Assuming that some of it will be reduced by the natural resistences it will be around 400 damage per salvo. I think it's too much. The Drakes apart of all the rest (the godly tank comes to mind) will be anticeptor pwnmobiles) Consider that even turret cruiser ships will always miss an interceptor orbiting around them at that speed.
Does this seem balanced to you?
Given that my AC IV, unrigged crow, does 6.3kms, and will orbit at 24km slightly below that, yes. The only interceptor that is reliably 4.5kms is the Taranis. The 'Ranis is not a tackler. It is a killer. It hunts targets of opportunity and hits them with some odd 150-200dps.
Every other interceptor can go at least 6.4kms unrigged.
Even better? Depending on pilot skills, interceptors can be hit by pulse lasers even at very high speeds. 6.3kms is no guarantee of permatackling a harbinger.
You've already made it clear, however, that you don't know how PVP works on the field. These changes to heavy missiles make them too slow to hit the vast majority of interceptors. Those it can hit, would already be hit by any other reasonable turret weapon anyways, or be too slow to dodge the Warrior IIs.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.18 23:02:00 -
[36]
Precision Heavies as currently fired by a Drake have a top speed of 4875 m/s/ With the proposed boost, it will be 5625 m/s/
Outrunning either in an inty is trivial.
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Darth Vaders
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.19 00:15:00 -
[37]
Originally by: MalVortex
Quote:
Since the average interceptor orbits at about 4500m/s to 5000m/s
The damage it will be recieving seems to be around 30%. 30% from heavy missiles that are doing about 290 damage each. The 30% of that is around 100 damage. 100 damage x 7 launchers of the Drake = 700 damage per salvo to an orbiting interceptor. Assuming that some of it will be reduced by the natural resistences it will be around 400 damage per salvo. I think it's too much. The Drakes apart of all the rest (the godly tank comes to mind) will be anticeptor pwnmobiles) Consider that even turret cruiser ships will always miss an interceptor orbiting around them at that speed.
Does this seem balanced to you?
Given that my AC IV, unrigged crow, does 6.3kms, and will orbit at 24km slightly below that, yes. The only interceptor that is reliably 4.5kms is the Taranis. The 'Ranis is not a tackler. It is a killer. It hunts targets of opportunity and hits them with some odd 150-200dps.
Every other interceptor can go at least 6.4kms unrigged.
Even better? Depending on pilot skills, interceptors can be hit by pulse lasers even at very high speeds. 6.3kms is no guarantee of permatackling a harbinger.
You've already made it clear, however, that you don't know how PVP works on the field. These changes to heavy missiles make them too slow to hit the vast majority of interceptors. Those it can hit, would already be hit by any other reasonable turret weapon anyways, or be too slow to dodge the Warrior IIs.
Surprise surprise ,do i look like a Caldari hater? I am Caldari for God's sake! This character is at least.
For the speeds you are exagerating. Consider that a Crusader (3 overdrives II ,1 nanofiber II) with top speed of 7100 can orbit at 21km at around 5600 with acceleration control lvl 3 and navigation lvl 5 with an align time of 4 sec Crow's top speed with these skills is 6100 (3 overdrives II) (align time 4.5) so when orbiting will be less than what you said. Maybe with top skills it goes up but who has top skills anyway. also here are many cases that an interceptor won't orbit so far away. In small gangs that don't have the luxury of a rapier the interceptor may have to web so it will have to orbit closer so the orbiting speed will be lesser. Also you may pretend you are some expert crow pilot but if you orbit so far away you won't be able to scramble since the crow has no bonus in the warp disruptor unless you overheat but not many have that skill. In any case it's not always possible to orbit so far also because there is some possibitlity that the target manages to get out of your scrambling range. So you may have to orbit closer just to be sure.
So i loged with this account to show you that even if you pass this change you will benefit ME. Hate me as much as you like for being who i am , a guy that cares about game balance regardless of what suits him best. You boost Caldari? I am happy. You boost Gallente i am happy. You boost Minmatar i am happy, you boost Amarr i am happy. I happen to worry though for the player that has only 1 account and the changes may not make him so happy. |
MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.19 01:55:00 -
[38]
This is the last time I'm feeding this troll:
1) My Crow does 6.3kms. 2x ODII, 1x NFII, AC IV. Learn to fit crows.
2) Interceptors tackling at sub 24km is fail. My warp disrupter II goes to 24km. Why on earth would I orbit at 21km?
3) If your crow goes to web, expect to be counterwebed and instapopped by the vast majority of PVP targets you will engage.
4) If you want to orbit closer to ensure the target can't *somehow* juke scrambling, be prepared to take a hit. You would take it from most other turret based ships.
5) Drakes don't have velocity bonus to missiles. As Gypsio stated, those missiles won't even catch you once you break 5.5kms
6) None of your points are relevant to this fix.
7) Finally, I don't hate you. I hate your troll posts. Now leave.
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.19 03:49:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 19/06/2008 03:52:36
Originally by: MalVortex This is the last time I'm feeding this troll:
1) My Crow does 6.3kms. 2x ODII, 1x NFII, AC IV. Learn to fit crows.
Oh yeah? Well my Crusader goes 7100 but still when it orbits at 21 (3 overdrives II, 1 nanofiber II )it doesn't go beyond 5600. Perhaps if i had AC 4 could go a bit more but always that speed would be below the max possible speed. So improbable your crow to orbit at it's max speed as well.
Quote:
2) Interceptors tackling at sub 24km is fail. My warp disrupter II goes to 24km. Why on earth would I orbit at 21km?
Because the way the game works nothing works at the exact nominal range. For example one may have drone range 54km but if you are siting at 54km the drones will deny to attack. You have to go down to 53km to actually fire them. This from experience. So you can't expect that you will orbit with that crow at 24km and that the crow will maintain that exact orbit at all times. You need to leave some space to it. Let's not forget that your target isn't static and that will affect yopur orbit accuracy. That is why you chose a closer orbit that the nominal for your disruptor.
Quote:
3) If your crow goes to web, expect to be counterwebed and instapopped by the vast majority of PVP targets you will engage.
There is no rule imposing that every ship wears always a webber at the mids. Let alone that it has happened before to be grabed in web by a Deimos and still was unable to hit me with blasters probably because i was orbiting at 500. why should the Cerberus have the insane advantage to pwn any ceptor in most cases irregardless of mwd or not?
Quote:
4) If you want to orbit closer to ensure the target can't *somehow* juke scrambling, be prepared to take a hit. You would take it from most other turret based ships.
I am prepared to take a hit but not be pwned with a couple of slavos as you try to make happen.
Quote:
5) Drakes don't have velocity bonus to missiles. As Gypsio stated, those missiles won't even catch you once you break 5.5kms
How about Cerberus? Cerberus with the rate of fire bonus makes around same damage as a Drake and with velocity bonus with your upgrade will catch even ceptors travelling at 9km. Let alone that will be the ship that will pwn the nano cruisers even the average Vagabond without breaking a sweat. Why should Cerberus be so much upgraded? Because you happen to fly it?
Quote:
6) None of your points are relevant to this fix.
They are but you fail to realise it blinded by your arrogance.
Quote:
7) Finally, I don't hate you. I hate your troll posts. Now leave.
I don't hate you either. I hate only your arrogant geekish posts. Nop, i am not leaving |
Sabrina Al'Kian
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Posted - 2008.06.19 04:17:00 -
[40]
Sounds good. I've never used the things myself, but I can see a boost when one's needed.
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Sabrina Al'Kian
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Posted - 2008.06.19 04:25:00 -
[41]
Also, Zaran, the "30% damage" was for a ship going about 4600m/s. Your 5600m/s sader will be taking minimal damage. MINIMAL.
Also, Vagabonds can easily get over 10km/s. They aren't going to be TOO greatly affected by this change. It's mainly the other nano cruisers that will have to start sweating (which is nice, because, honestly, I doubt CreoDron had speed in mind when they built the Ishtar...).
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.19 06:47:00 -
[42]
Just like nothing should out-run an inti in the ships department, nothing should outrun a missle. Especially a percision missle. ----
GO BLUE!! |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.19 18:40:00 -
[43]
this belongs on the first page
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.19 18:54:00 -
[44]
Although I'm sure there is scope for tweaking of the exact figures, it is unquestionable that Precision Heavies need some sort of boost, as currently they are worse than precision Cruise in all PVP situations that occur.
And no more discussing PVE in this thread, please.
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.19 18:58:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ulstan on 19/06/2008 19:01:53 This Zaran troll fails hard in almost every possible way.
Heavy precision missiles are not 'very good' in pve, they are extremely sub-par for what you use them for in pve and you'd be much better off using drones. Fortunately for you, pve is very rewarding of terrible play and so you can get by even using atrociously bad tactics and fits.
That said, obviously pve performance has 0 impact on whether or not something is balanced for PvP so I'm not sure why you even brought it up, unless you wanted to firmly establish your noob credentials.
Now, moving onto the interceptors issue, obviously you are terrible at fitting and flying interceptors, or simply lack the skill points to do it. 6km/s should be considered a 'base speed' for interceptors and it only goes up from there when you add in more epxensive implants and rigs and gang bonuses. 12km/s is routine.
As MalVortex showed, anything moving 6km/s or greater is going to be virtually immune to heavy precision missiles (and don't forget the signature radius penalty for shooting heavies at interceptors, and remember that the game will use whichever is least good for the attacker - so even if heavy precision had an explosion velocity of INFINITY they'd still do crap damage to interceptors because of their tiny sig radius, but that wouldn't even matter because they couldn't even hit an interceptor in the first place, as an inties speed is higher than the max velocity of heavy missiles shot by a drake)
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:05:00 -
[46]
Quote: How about Cerberus? Cerberus with the rate of fire bonus makes around same damage as a Drake and with velocity bonus with your upgrade will catch even ceptors travelling at 9km. Let alone that will be the ship that will pwn the nano cruisers even the average Vagabond without breaking a sweat. Why should Cerberus be so much upgraded? Because you happen to fly it?
It's supposed to be able to counter nano ships, that's the entire point of the vessel. It can't right now because precision heavies are bugged and useless (arguably all explosion velocities across the board are too low, but the heavy precision missile problem is undeniable).
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Arkanjuca
R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2008.06.20 12:57:00 -
[47]
the balance point is:
Cerberus should be able to hit a vaga, but cause minimal to 0 dmg on an interceptor.
The problem with this concept is that a vaga in orbit goes at speeds close to interceptors, and inties with mwd turned on has the signature of a cruiser.
So a little tweak to that could be something like the explosion velocity getting a bonus when hitting targets with sigs larger than the missile itself.
This would be an indirect boost to TP as well ^^ -- AF should be like HACs
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Nyx Cyth
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Posted - 2008.06.20 13:26:00 -
[48]
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Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.06.20 15:41:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Arkanjuca the balance point is:
Cerberus should be able to hit a vaga, but cause minimal to 0 dmg on an interceptor.
The problem with this concept is that a vaga in orbit goes at speeds close to interceptors, and inties with mwd turned on has the signature of a cruiser.
Why should vaga, but not cerb, be able to kill interceptors?
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Carrus Thrace
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Posted - 2008.06.23 05:58:00 -
[50]
I agree with this fix, the fact that this change could potentially mean that the Caldari militia can finally kill something and make some of the expensive nano setups less effective, does not mean that this error should not be fixed and I endorse it.
Carrus
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.23 23:42:00 -
[51]
The thought occurs, that a lot of the current objection to 'nano' ships, is because there's a weapon class that's basically utterly useless.
No matter how many heavy missiles you fire at a nano-ishtar, you're _not_ going to do it any damage.
But at the same time, 'fixing' nanoships, in such a way as to make the Vagabond (and it's fellow Minmatar ships) actively worse, I feel would also be a bad thing.
Something as simple as upping the explosion velocity on precision heavy missiles by 'a bit' - maybe to 2km/sec, maybe 1500m/sec - would serve to raise the bar on 'immune to heavy missiles' such that the really good speed ships (e.g. the vagabond) are still fine in the same situations.
But the 'not so good' nano ships have a much harder time of it. (e.g. Sacrilege, Ishtar). -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
DogSlime
Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2008.06.24 01:22:00 -
[52]
Not that I think CCP will do a damn thing about it.
The CSM will most likely vote it straight off the agenda like they did with the nighthawk :(
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.24 02:00:00 -
[53]
CSM will ignore it because the PVEers will tell us that Precision Heavies are great for hitting small stuff in missions, and the PVPers will... probably do the same, tbh.
I think I'll get some numbers together later and start a new Nighthawk thread, asking for the useless precision bonus to be changed to explosion velocity. I expect I'll be told that "the Nighthawk is a wonderful antisupport ship with a huge tank and is probably overpowered if anything"...
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van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.06.24 10:04:00 -
[54]
A small adjustment to explosion velocity should be in order for Precision Heavy Missiles.
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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:01:00 -
[55]
No.
Also, is writing novels something of a practice in Jericho Fraction ?
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Nessaji
Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.24 16:23:00 -
[56]
Fix 'em! ______________________________________ "Originally by: Tuxford It was a dirty hack to be honest but we couldn't find anyway around it. I hope we never have to do it again."
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.28 15:22:00 -
[57]
Explosion velocity: precision light 3000m/s precision heavy 1000m/s <- CCP, you got a typo here, it must be 2000 precision cruise 1000m/s
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Hellaciouss
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.28 16:08:00 -
[58]
All precision missiles need a buff, especially heavies.
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Little Fistter
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:05:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Little Fistter on 28/06/2008 17:06:09
Originally by: Hellaciouss All precision missiles need a buff, especially heavies.
This is absolutely true. T2 missiles should equal, if not exceed, T1 versions. Especially in velocity and duration.
Lag issue: The explosion radius thing consumes far too many CPU cycles and I wish that you just had a look up table instead of a floating point calculation involving trig functions.... for every explosion! If you want to balance the game we understand, but not at the expense of magnifying lag! Complex math should be calculated rarely, maybe one calculation every few seconds could set a scaling factor? The present algorithm wastes Server side resources!
Now truely, even if you do not find a way to save the many milliseconds each explosion takes to calculate, the T2 missiles all fall short of expectations.
For any purpose, all of the T2 designs are flawed. Regardless of skills, ship bonuses or implant bonuses, a T2 missile should always fly farther and hit harder than a T1!
At the very least, the OP's general idea is correct (and very well presented too) and I feel is very conservative! His suggest is just the beginning of an effective game balance (Oh and I am not much of a missile fighter, I feel the same way about T2 hybrid ammos, they are unfairly nerfed!)
Thank you. Edited to add my vote to this idea. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:12:00 -
[60]
Agreed. Precision heavies are just utterly horrible. |
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