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Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Small things do not drive overall inflation. Incursions are a bright sparkly object that every idiot in the galaxy is pointing to as the cause of inflation. This even though CCPs released numbers show incursions as a minor issue, and CCP has called incursions a minor issue, people continuing to harp on it. This is distracting from more important discussions. Put bluntly, incursion runners are a bunch of noobs using faction gear to make up for low SPs. Simply put, people feel like they're making good isk per hour running incursions because they have no idea how much their shiny ships could generated in level 4s, and are loosing track of how much time they are spending because they're enjoying being in fleets.
The structural reasons for eve inflation seem to be:
1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink. 2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base. 3. Increasing number of SPs allowing people to kill large rats faster. 4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking. 5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to a. suicide ganking of miners, b. banning of mining bots and c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking). 6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile.
Of these factors I think the most important ones are 1. The removal of the POS fuel isk sink and 2. the increasing difficulty with arbitage. Quadruple the EHP of barges and freighters and you'll drop the inflation rate. |

Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
280
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
[citation needed] |

baltec1
790
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Incursions have injected a large amount of isk into a system already suffering from inflation. The result is we now have a massive problem with inflation.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
281
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
No no no, dumping baskets full of currency into the economy doesn't cause inflation, preventing people from autopiloting freighters full of loot to Jita causes inflation. |

baltec1
790
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ah yes how silly of me |

Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
369
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Be all this as it may, there's no governance of currency in circulation which will inevitably lead to inflation, or all economic models are wrong, and a few EVE geniuses qualify for the Nobel. Your list is rather partial, and what CCP claims, in relation to what they actually understand makes quoting them moot. EVEflation, or madflation is an inevitable outcome of this model.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |

Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:No no no, dumping baskets full of currency into the economy doesn't cause inflation, preventing people from autopiloting freighters full of loot to Jita causes inflation.
You have made two mistakes. First you are assuming that incursions are "baskets full of currency." Incursions about equal the isk paid out from mission rewards and time bonuses. They come nowhere near close to the isk from bounties (and keep in mind I believe those are only mission bounty numbers, not total bounty numbers).
Also, you have failed to take into account opportunity cost. Are incursion runners making more than they could from level IV missions. People may be making more isk because they are playing more hours in incursions. From all the information we see however incursions are not a major cause of inflation. Indeed considering that LP store buys are a major isk sink, incursions (with their shiny fleets) may actually be isk neutral or negative when compared to the same amount of level IV mission running.
On the other hand a bunch of people on this forum seem utterly convinced that no amount of suicide ganking can have a structural effect on the economy. This at the same time they are going off on risk v. reward not realizing that by creating larger risks in high sec their will be a market increase in price (reward) to compensate.
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Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
262
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) |

Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
~20% of all isk injected into the economy is minor!?!
And yes, incursions make more isk per hour than lvl4s. Though you are correct in stating that bounties/mission rewards need hit with the nerf bat in some shape or form.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duplicate thread is redundant.
|

Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking)
No blowing up a ship creates isk from the insurance payout. The industrialist who built the ship still has the isk that was paid for it. On the other hand the price of goods will increase as somebody needs to be paid for the increased gank risk in moving goods (assuming you popped a hauler).
On the effect of incursions on the economy, you realize that isk will come in somehow. If 20% of the PvE time in the game is being spent in incursions, then the fact that 20% of the PvE income comes from incursions is not a big deal (BTW your numbers are wrong, I believe that bounties number is only the bounties from missions not from ratting/plexing).
From what CCP is saying they want to tweak incursions a bit, but the PvE time invested to total payout is not badly out of whack (at least when LFG and transist times are taken into account).
Incursions are a bright shiny object that people have latched onto. CCP has flat out said that incursionsare not a major factor in the inflation problem..
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VaMei
Meafi Corp
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink. While POCOs do void the isk sink since the tax goes to the corp, all of those IB and Concord COs are sinking isk. I've no idea how much tax hi-sec production is soaking us for, but my single planet robotics operation (i.e. no tax on p0-p2) in low-sec were charging ~7,000 isk on export. That's on par with NPC sourced robotics.
2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base. [citation needed]
3. Increasing number of SPs allowing people to kill large rats faster. Granted. Thanks to character sales, old toons never die... they just change hands. Add in the effects of rigs, open access to implants & faction gear (LP store change) and fully develpoed T2 production (you've gotta be old school to remember Meta4 on T1 BSes as hi-end mission running)
4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking. Red Frog. Problem solved. Seriously though, I run my loaded freighter from Dodixie to Jita multiple times per week w/o issue. I've pushed as much as 3Bisk in a single load, and passed without a scratch.
5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to: a. suicide ganking of miners [citation needed] Hulkageddon-I had some impact on mineral prices, but was likely speculative rather than a real disruption. Other Hulkageddon events have had little or no market impact.
b. banning of mining bots \0/ Down with slave labor!! Seriously, the effect of mining bots is to artificially push down the cost of materials. If CCP can get/keep bots under control, I wouldn't be surprised to see mining of high ends climb back to 100Misk/Hr, like it used to be.
c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking). See 4 above. 5.75Misk to move a billion isk from Dodixie to Jita is not a significant cost.
6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile. If true, the prefered modules are more effective than the T2 modules they replace. That's a productivity increase via upgrades, not inflation, and the effect is negative price pressure on the modules they replace. |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking)
Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adssisk into the ecomony |

Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) No blowing up a ship creates isk from the insurance payout. The industrialist who built the ship still has the isk that was paid for it. On the other hand the price of goods will increase as somebody needs to be paid for the increased gank risk in moving goods (assuming you popped a hauler). On the effect of incursions on the economy, you realize that isk will come in somehow. If 20% of the PvE time in the game is being spent in incursions, then the fact that 20% of the PvE income comes from incursions is not a big deal (BTW your numbers are wrong, I believe that bounties number is only the bounties from missions not from ratting/plexing). From what CCP is saying they want to tweak incursions a bit, but the PvE time invested to total payout is not badly out of whack (at least when LFG and transist times are taken into account). Incursions are a bright shiny object that people have latched onto. CCP has flat out said that incursions are not a major factor in the inflation problem..
So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)
When you blow up a hauler, he only gets a portion of the isk back from the ship, and about half of his cargo is destroyed. The end result is A LOT OF ISK GETS REMOVED FROM THE GAME, some of it is transfered to a new owner, and a little goes to the owner of the dead ship.
Perfect example would be that Ibis that was ganked in Jita carrying a couple hundred PLEX.
Incursions are not a MAJOR source of inflation, no. But it IS adding to it. The fact is Incursions are the best PvE isk source in the game. It should never have been that way. It should never have made people more then lvl4's in highsec.
Incursions are just one part of a big problem. I think the major problem is the increased number of carebears in the game all farming isk, never leaving highsec, never risking it in PvP.
The huge increase in the past year, in whine threads about Cloakers, Gankers etc, are evidence the carebear population is growing. These people suckle on the isk faucets. Even after they're 5 years old they're still latching onto that nipple, and they absolutely refuse to leave their highsec house. All these carebears are amassing more and more isk and they're doing nothing with it. |

Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony This assumes 100% of his cargo survives. It doesn't. |

TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries
43
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Y U PEOPLE IGNORE TECH MOONS |

Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
431
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Small things do not drive overall inflation. Incursions are a bright sparkly object that every idiot in the galaxy is pointing to as the cause of inflation. This even though CCPs released numbers show incursions as a minor issue, and CCP has called incursions a minor issue, people continuing to harp on it. This is distracting from more important discussions. Put bluntly, incursion runners are a bunch of noobs using faction gear to make up for low SPs. Simply put, people feel like they're making good isk per hour running incursions because they have no idea how much their shiny ships could generated in level 4s, and are loosing track of how much time they are spending because they're enjoying being in fleets.
The structural reasons for eve inflation seem to be:
1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink. 2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base. 3. Increasing number of SPs allowing people to kill large rats faster. 4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking. 5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to a. suicide ganking of miners, b. banning of mining bots and c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking). 6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile.
Of these factors I think the most important ones are 1. The removal of the POS fuel isk sink and 2. the increasing difficulty with arbitage. Quadruple the EHP of barges and freighters and you'll drop the inflation rate.
Im not sure that everything you have posted is correct but im sure that some is. High end mission runners make more isk thats for sure. but low end do not and they are dragged up in isk earned by more skilled players.
Just my thoughts. I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |

VaMei
Meafi Corp
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)
Buying ships removes isk from your wallet and puts it in mine. Blowing up ships removes the ship from your inventory, and insurance puts isk in your wallet; but less than the cost to buy a new ship. I still have the isk used to buy the ship you lost, and you have newly created isk from the insurance payout.
If you expect to collect more isk from any loot you can gather than the difference between the insurance payout and the original ship cost, then suicide ganking is profitable.
Under the old insurance model, the insurance payout was often higher than the market price of a ship, making insurance fraud profitable without bothering with a gank. |

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
174
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony
This goes much broader. PvP in general does not remove ISK. If anything it adds ISK.
Sov 5 with infrastructure gets lost in a war and new Sov Holder sits in Tier 1 sov for the duration. Sov bills drop by astronomical rates. De-throning empires saves them a fortune in concord bills.
|

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Y U PEOPLE IGNORE TECH MOONS
Becuase they are over owhelmingly NULL SECers using Incursions as a scape goat |

Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Say i'm in a freighter with 5bil isk in cargo.
You kill me.
Lets be generous here, I get 100% of my ship cost back through insurance, and lets say i get 100% of the Platinum Insurance cost. No money is lost here! I buy a new ship and... money goes from me to someone else... again, no isk lost here.
You approach my wreck and find... whats this? Where did the other 2.5 billion Isk go? You thought for sure you saw some Pith X-Type mods when you scanned me! Where did all these disappear to?
I'll tell you a secret. It was destroyed! MAGICALLY REMOVED FROM THE GAME!
And that is how ganking removes isk. Even if the actual ship lost doesnt remove anything, -EVERYBODY- is still losing half of your fittings and cargo. COMPLETELY REMOVED FROM THE GAME. COMPLETELY IRRETRIEVABLE. COMPLETELY UNINSURED.
If you cant understand this, you be trollin. |

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony This assumes 100% of his cargo survives. It doesn't.
Once again THE CARGO IS NOT ISK!!!! The ISK has already traded hands for them & is still in circulation!!! How can I explain this through your thick skull!!! ISKies go no poof. Minerals do go poof. |

Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
174
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:TheBreadMuncher wrote:Y U PEOPLE IGNORE TECH MOONS Becuase they are over owhelmingly NULL SECers using Incursions as a scape goat
Actually, setting aside my ideas of how lop sided tech moons are to Sov, untill I can sell Technecium to an NPC it isnt a faucet it's a player based income.
|

Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.
Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking) Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony This assumes 100% of his cargo survives. It doesn't.
what survives is irrelevant. 100% of ISK spent on cargo is preserved in the system. and additional value of insurance is injected. |

VaMei
Meafi Corp
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Say i'm in a freighter with 5bil isk in cargo.
You kill me. ...
If you cant understand this, you be trollin.
Much stuff was destroyed. You are justifiably POed by the drop in your net worth.
Zero isk were removed from the economy, only goods that you may have chosen to trade for isk. isk are added to your wallet by the insurace, adding insult to injury, and inflating the total money supply. |

Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF! |

VaMei
Meafi Corp
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF! ... and who ever it is that sold the modules still has the isk. |

Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
VaMei wrote:1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink. While POCOs do void the isk sink since the tax goes to the corp, all of those IB and Concord COs are sinking isk. I've no idea how much tax hi-sec production is soaking us for, but my single planet robotics operation (i.e. no tax on p0-p2) in low-sec were charging ~7,000 isk on export. That's on par with NPC sourced robotics.
This is a nonsensical statement. A POCO set at a 10% tax rate is sinking 0 isk out of the economy, I will admit that I honestly cannot remember what the NPC prices on POS fuels were. I get the feeling that less isk is being sunk out in taxes than was taken out with NPC purchases. Irregardless, every planet with a POCO is sinking exactly 0 isk (not counting the payment for the BPC) out of the economy. That the removal of a major isk sink.
2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base. [citation needed]
The last year. The fact that CCP layed off 20% of the company over the issue. Seriously, while slow growth may have resumed, slow growth is slow. That's not a massive influx of players that are going to expand the economic base and bleeding out some of the inflation.
4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking. Red Frog. Problem solved. Seriously though, I run my loaded freighter from Dodixie to Jita multiple times per week w/o issue. I've pushed as much as 3Bisk in a single load, and passed without a scratch.
Red Frog is an option for people who know about Red Frog. Also have you seen there ques lately.
It costs 0.575% to move a billion isk of goods from dodixie to Jita. If you are arbitaging goods on a 3% margin that's a little bit more than 1/6th of your profit gone there. Prices will need to rise to compensate. Since Red Frog will take a day or more to complete its shipment there is a very good chance that your arbitage opportunity will disappear before your goods reach market. The answer is of course to run it down yourself.
At the same time if you put more than 700m in your freighter you are a gank target. Three percent of 700m is 21m in profits. According to Red Frogs Calculator it's a 30 minute ATK trip from Jita to Dodixie. If you had a similar opportunity on the other end you'd be making 42m and hour. That's good, but by the time you have a freighter alt/main you can probably make comparable flying missions.
Here's the kicker though, a 3% profit is a good profit for arbitage. The upshot is that the prices you pay don't get knocked down by somebody dropping a freighters worth of goods onto the market. End result multiplied over a bunch of transactions is inflation.
5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to: a. suicide ganking of miners [citation needed] Hulkageddon-I had some impact on mineral prices, but was likely speculative rather than a real disruption. Other Hulkageddon events have had little or no market impact.
Hulkageddon's were transitory events that lasted for a week. We are seeing a long term increase in risk requiring an increase in reward.
Quote:c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking). See 4 above. 5.75Misk to move a billion isk from Dodixie to Jita is not a significant cost.
6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile. If true, the prefered modules are more effective than the T2 modules they replace. That's a productivity increase via upgrades, not inflation, and the effect is negative price pressure on the modules they replace.
Building Caldari Fuel blocks currently generates 623,000 isk/hour. Moving 160,000 cubes (6 days, 18 hours build time) will require three freighter trips. It also is going to take around three freighter trips to move the stuff to processing. That's roughly that is 54 hours (40%) of profit lost to shipping fees (from Dodixie to Jita).
Of course very few people are actually putting in a weeks worth of fuel blocks. Fuel blocks are at about a 4.5% profit margin. Assuming that Red Frog is charging an appropriate risk premium, gank risk is adding around two percentage points to the cost of fuel blocks (honestly more like 1%, nobody in their right mind is hauling stuff from Jita to Dodixie). Sure not much but a one percent increase of the price of POS gas will be reflected in a markup on almost everything especially T2 mods that are being produced by invention. |

Grumpy Owly
311
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF!
Sorry terminal but your missunderstanding what an isk sink is here.
The isk for buying the ships and modules has already changed hands and remains in the total isk player pot. All goods do is move isk around from player to player they do not add to the pot or take it away, though there is escrow charges and taxation involved with selling goods, but it is a small percentage.
Goods are considered to be part of the mineral pot. So the total mineral assests are removed when you destroy them.
But you need to seperate the mineral assests from the total isk in the pot when considering EvE inflationary issues, as the accepted convention when talking about inflation is to do with how much isk is sloshing around, not how many assests. Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |

Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
I really dont know how to be any more obvious about this.
Blowing up players results in lost isk. You lost isk. Isk sink. Isk gone! TRUST ME - I HAVE A MONOCLE
Do you really think i would have amassed this much wealth and not know the difference? My shirt cost 800 million isk alone.
ITS AN ISK SINK |
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