No no no, dumping baskets full of currency into the economy doesn't cause inflation, preventing people from autopiloting freighters full of loot to Jita causes inflation.

Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.

Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking)

Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.

Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking)

No blowing up a ship creates isk from the insurance payout. The industrialist who built the ship still has the isk that was paid for it. On the other hand the price of goods will increase as somebody needs to be paid for the increased gank risk in moving goods (assuming you popped a hauler).

On the effect of incursions on the economy, you realize that isk will come in somehow. If 20% of the PvE time in the game is being spent in incursions, then the fact that 20% of the PvE income comes from incursions is not a big deal (BTW your numbers are wrong, I believe that bounties number is only the bounties from missions not from ratting/plexing).

From what CCP is saying they want to tweak incursions a bit, but the PvE time invested to total payout is not badly out of whack (at least when LFG and transist times are taken into account).

Incursions are a bright shiny object that people have latched onto. CCP has flat out said that incursionsare not a major factor in the inflation problem..

Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony

Small things do not drive overall inflation. Incursions are a bright sparkly object that every idiot in the galaxy is pointing to as the cause of inflation. This even though CCPs released numbers show incursions as a minor issue, and CCP has called incursions a minor issue, people continuing to harp on it. This is distracting from more important discussions. Put bluntly, incursion runners are a bunch of noobs using faction gear to make up for low SPs. Simply put, people feel like they're making good isk per hour running incursions because they have no idea how much their shiny ships could generated in level 4s, and are loosing track of how much time they are spending because they're enjoying being in fleets.

The structural reasons for eve inflation seem to be:

1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink.
2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base.
3. Increasing number of SPs allowing people to kill large rats faster.
4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking.
5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to a. suicide ganking of miners, b. banning of mining bots and c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking).
6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile.

Of these factors I think the most important ones are 1. The removal of the POS fuel isk sink and 2. the increasing difficulty with arbitage. Quadruple the EHP of barges and freighters and you'll drop the inflation rate.

So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)

Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony

Y U PEOPLE IGNORE TECH MOONS

This assumes 100% of his cargo survives. It doesn't.

Becuase they are over owhelmingly NULL SECers using Incursions as a scape goat

This assumes 100% of his cargo survives. It doesn't.

Say i'm in a freighter with 5bil isk in cargo.

You kill me. ...

If you cant understand this, you be trollin.

YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF!

1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink.
While POCOs do void the isk sink since the tax goes to the corp, all of those IB and Concord COs are sinking isk. I've no idea how much tax hi-sec production is soaking us for, but my single planet robotics operation (i.e. no tax on p0-p2) in low-sec were charging ~7,000 isk on export. That's on par with NPC sourced robotics.

c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking).
See 4 above. 5.75Misk to move a billion isk from Dodixie to Jita is not a significant cost.

6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile.
If true, the prefered modules are more effective than the T2 modules they replace. That's a productivity increase via upgrades, not inflation, and the effect is negative price pressure on the modules they replace.

YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF!

I really dont know how to be any more obvious about this....
...
Blowing up players results in lost isk.

I really dont know how to be any more obvious about this.

Blowing up players results in lost isk. You lost isk. Isk sink. Isk gone! TRUST ME - I HAVE A MONOCLE

Do you really think i would have amassed this much wealth and not know the difference? My shirt cost 800 million isk alone.

ITS AN ISK SINK

Blowing up a player's ship and his goods reduces his net worth and may leave him broke. While his stuff did have value before it went poof, it was not isk.

Here it is Barney style:

3 players in the game, you, me and Joe the Miner. Each of us have 100 isk. 300isk in the game.

I buy 90 isk in materials from Joe, and build a ship. Now, you have 100, I have 10, and Joe has 190. 300 isk in the game.

You buy the ship from me for 100 isk. Now, you have 0, I have 110, & Joe has 190. 300 isk in the game.

Your ship gets blown up. you get 20 isk from insurance. I still have 110 & Joe still has 190. 320 isk in the game.

While you are broke, no isk was destroyed and the total amount of isk in the game has actually increased.

Gotta make you understand.

Its still lost isk.
I paid for those modules and now they're gone.
The modules didnt change hands
My employees in highsec all mined for hours and hours to provide me with them
And all of that is now removed

WHATS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS OBVIOUS ****?
Buy a monocle maybe that'll help.

Dont tell me you're too blind to see

Gotta make you understand.

Its still lost isk.

Last shot at it since I'm pretty sure I've been trolled...

Gotta make you understand.

Its still lost isk.
I paid for those modules and now they're gone.
The modules didnt change hands
My employees in highsec all mined for hours and hours to provide me with them
And all of that is now removed

WHATS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS OBVIOUS ****?
Buy a monocle maybe that'll help.

Dont tell me you're too blind to see

~20% of all isk injected into the economy is minor!?!

And yes, incursions make more isk per hour than lvl4s. Though you are correct in stating that bounties/mission rewards need hit with the nerf bat in some shape or form.

Really what's the point of talking about numbers and details if a significant portion of this board thinks blowing ships up is an isk sink.

A faucet is a faucet and a rate of flow is a rate of flow. X liters will overflow the bathtub whether you're hand pumping it or having it dumped in by an army of slave monkeys with buckets.

I really dont know how to be any more obvious about this.

Blowing up players results in lost isk. You lost isk. Isk sink. Isk gone! TRUST ME - I HAVE A MONOCLE

Do you really think i would have amassed this much wealth and not know the difference? My shirt cost 800 million isk alone.

ITS AN ISK SINK

Becuase they are over owhelmingly NULL SECers using Incursions as a scape goat

On the other hand their stupidity is distracting them from your real deceit, which was handwaving your patently absurd position that highsec suicide ganking is a greater source of inflation than highsec incursions in the hope of getting support for crusade against suicide gankers. I mean, do you really expect to get away with claiming that the amount of play time players have to invest in incursions changes anything about how much isk flows into the economy as a result?

A faucet is a faucet and a rate of flow is a rate of flow. X liters will overflow the bathtub whether you're hand pumping it or having it dumped in by an army of slave monkeys with buckets.

Blowing up ships removes 0 ISK from the economy the ISK was already paid for & leaks back to the industialist that made it! The ISK is still circulating. The insurance paid actually adds ISK into the ecomony

not always true.


Killing pods is an isk-sink.

FIGHT INFLATION -- KILL A POD!

Becuase they are over owhelmingly NULL SECers using Incursions as a scape goat

not always true.


Killing pods is an isk-sink.

FIGHT INFLATION -- KILL A POD!

damn dawg that's some greek style economics right there yo
how many times must it be told that tech moon goo are bought and sold on the market, the isk exchange hands not created.

4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking.

YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF!

No no no, dumping baskets full of currency into the economy doesn't cause inflation, preventing people from autopiloting freighters full of loot to Jita causes inflation.

What I find amazing is that when the dev who has actual hard number saying that incursions are not the source of inflation posts the PvPidiots on this board flame him for being wrong. This is the guy with the actual, honest to god, numbers with all the comparative and supporting data.

I'm not saying incursions are not the problem CCP is saying incursion are not the problem...

Soundwave was looking at the same data we are; his interpretation of those data differed.

He's the dev, you aren't. His interpretation holds more clout.

He's the dev, you aren't. His interpretation holds more clout.

Anyone with real life economical qualifications who has complete access to all Eve data and has been studying it for several years - Please stand up!

So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)

When you blow up a hauler, he only gets a portion of the isk back from the ship, and about half of his cargo is destroyed.
The end result is A LOT OF ISK GETS REMOVED FROM THE GAME, some of it is transfered to a new owner, and a little goes to the owner of the dead ship.

Perfect example would be that Ibis that was ganked in Jita carrying a couple hundred PLEX.

Incursions are not a MAJOR source of inflation, no. But it IS adding to it. The fact is Incursions are the best PvE isk source in the game. It should never have been that way. It should never have made people more then lvl4's in highsec.

Incursions are just one part of a big problem. I think the major problem is the increased number of carebears in the game all farming isk, never leaving highsec, never risking it in PvP.

The huge increase in the past year, in whine threads about Cloakers, Gankers etc, are evidence the carebear population is growing. These people suckle on the isk faucets. Even after they're 5 years old they're still latching onto that nipple, and they absolutely refuse to leave their highsec house. All these carebears are amassing more and more isk and they're doing nothing with it.

... and who ever it is that sold the modules still has the isk.

So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)

When you blow up a hauler, he only gets a portion of the isk back from the ship, and about half of his cargo is destroyed.
The end result is A LOT OF ISK GETS REMOVED FROM THE GAME, some of it is transfered to a new owner, and a little goes to the owner of the dead ship.

Perfect example would be that Ibis that was ganked in Jita carrying a couple hundred PLEX.

Incursions are not a MAJOR source of inflation, no. But it IS adding to it. The fact is Incursions are the best PvE isk source in the game. It should never have been that way. It should never have made people more then lvl4's in highsec.

Incursions are just one part of a big problem. I think the major problem is the increased number of carebears in the game all farming isk, never leaving highsec, never risking it in PvP.

The huge increase in the past year, in whine threads about Cloakers, Gankers etc, are evidence the carebear population is growing. These people suckle on the isk faucets. Even after they're 5 years old they're still latching onto that nipple, and they absolutely refuse to leave their highsec house. All these carebears are amassing more and more isk and they're doing nothing with it.

So why is insurance fraud no longer happening? If ganking CREATED isk, people would be ganking themselves to create it. (Like they did before the insurance fraud fix)

When you blow up a hauler, he only gets a portion of the isk back from the ship, and about half of his cargo is destroyed.
The end result is A LOT OF ISK GETS REMOVED FROM THE GAME, some of it is transfered to a new owner, and a little goes to the owner of the dead ship.

Perfect example would be that Ibis that was ganked in Jita carrying a couple hundred PLEX.

Incursions are not a MAJOR source of inflation, no. But it IS adding to it. The fact is Incursions are the best PvE isk source in the game. It should never have been that way. It should never have made people more then lvl4's in highsec.

Incursions are just one part of a big problem. I think the major problem is the increased number of carebears in the game all farming isk, never leaving highsec, never risking it in PvP.

The huge increase in the past year, in whine threads about Cloakers, Gankers etc, are evidence the carebear population is growing. These people suckle on the isk faucets. Even after they're 5 years old they're still latching onto that nipple, and they absolutely refuse to leave their highsec house. All these carebears are amassing more and more isk and they're doing nothing with it.

What? Yet again, you mean? LvL 4's are an easy target that have been nerfed repeatedly over time.

The only thing that needs adjusting there is the excessive, crap meta drops that get churned into minerals. Mining with guns is just screwing legitimate miners (non bots, if there are any around anymore). The bounties are fine.

i have yet to see a moon that adds isk to the system
also anyone saying being podded is not a sink is delusional, it's pretty much a tax on SPlevied on those 'dumb' enough to get podded

Small things do not drive overall inflation. Incursions are a bright sparkly object that every idiot in the galaxy is pointing to as the cause of inflation. This even though CCPs released numbers show incursions as a minor issue, and CCP has called incursions a minor issue, people continuing to harp on it. This is distracting from more important discussions. Put bluntly, incursion runners are a bunch of noobs using faction gear to make up for low SPs. Simply put, people feel like they're making good isk per hour running incursions because they have no idea how much their shiny ships could generated in level 4s, and are loosing track of how much time they are spending because they're enjoying being in fleets.

The structural reasons for eve inflation seem to be:

1. Removal of the POS fuel isk sink.
2. Lack of new players to expand the economic base.
3. Increasing number of SPs allowing people to kill large rats faster.
4. Decreasing ability to arbitage items between regions due to suicide ganking.
5. Massive cost increases in the raw resource basket due to a. suicide ganking of miners, b. banning of mining bots and c. increased costs in moving reprocessed minerals from mission hubs (due to suicide ganking).
6. We are transitioning from T2 being at the top of the commonly used mod pile to faction being at the top of the pile.

Of these factors I think the most important ones are 1. The removal of the POS fuel isk sink and 2. the increasing difficulty with arbitage. Quadruple the EHP of barges and freighters and you'll drop the inflation rate.

(Fun fact, incursions inject almost twice as much ISK into the economy than missions (rewards and bonuses only- not bounties) despite there being far fewer incursion runners than mission runners.)

~20% of all isk injected into the economy is minor!?!

And yes, incursions make more isk per hour than lvl4s. Though you are correct in stating that bounties/mission rewards need hit with the nerf bat in some shape or form.

Missions also inject a small amount of items in the form of loot... I assue its very negligable except maybe the Drone ones?

YOU PAID 5 BIL FOR THOSE MODULES - AND NOW IT WAS DESTROYED! POOF!

Blowing ships up directly removes isk from circulation. You're literally blowing it up.

Your entire point is void (Due To Suicide Ganking)

I really dont know how to be any more obvious about this.

Blowing up players results in lost isk. You lost isk. Isk sink. Isk gone! TRUST ME - I HAVE A MONOCLE

Do you really think i would have amassed this much wealth and not know the difference? My shirt cost 800 million isk alone.

ITS AN ISK SINK