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Aluka 7th
36
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Posted - 2012.05.31 08:03:00 -
[61] - Quote
Best way is if you don't get cargo scanned which is possible only if you use ship with covert op. cloak and manually warp to the gates at 0 (or semi-auto which is combination of activated autopilot but you select "warp to 0" before autopilot kicks in after jumping through gate). In that configuration only risky place is when you are undocking because you cant cloak (station is less then 2km from you) For that part use insta undock (that is a bookmark which is 200km or more in line of your undocking vector thus enabling you to warp to it moment you undock almost instantly because there is no need for align time or getting to speed.)
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Why cloak is a must? From my experience in ganking the gankers I decided against T3 with cloak. Gankers kill jump freighter that has 325-365000EHP so having T3 with 200-300k ehp is NOT enough. Extra tank of t3 is not enough and cargo hold is much smaller then one of a cloaky transport ship.
Fly safe o/ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1672
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Posted - 2012.05.31 08:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aluka 7th wrote:
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Fly safe o/
Force Recons (especially the Falcon) work really well for this. Fill the mids with shield buffer an the lows with Istabs and you'll warp like a covops and you'll have a decent tank. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2012.05.31 09:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cutout Man wrote:Its silly to train for 3 months to fly an Orca that costs 750mil to move small, high value items. Unless, maybe, it exceeds the volume of the available options. In hisec, the only goal is to not get locked. Thats it. No target lock, no scan, no die. Cloaky haulers and covops are always a good choice, but the MWD/Cloak trick works in hisec even better than it does losec (no one moves to kill you immediately). A cargo fitted industrial shuold handle most of the bigger stuff with mwd/cloak.
Again, very simple, your only goal is to not get target locked.
Just a reminder that seems to get misunderstood about getting locked and cloaky haulers vs Orca. First is that u can get "Insta" locked even in a Cloaky Hauler, it takes around 3-4 ships for this setup and the player has to click in space rather than using the overview, since the overview only updates every second, while the 3d space updates directly.
The thing is that if the ganker is lucky he can technically lock u. This has to-do with the server 1 sec working interval for every action. So if u hit "align" optimally 0.3 to 0.5 sec later u can hit cloak and get in the next 1 sec time-slice, but if the next time-slice is 0.7-1 sec further apart, the ganker can try to lock u and with a bit luck might have tried so in your "align" timeslice, so he will get a lock before your "cloak" command arrives at the server and therefor u cant cloak. So depending on the gankers ability and knowledge and your own lag, u are not 100% safe in a cloaky hauler. I would still say the chance is only 1-2%, but don't be surprised if this may actually happen some day.
The next problem is undocking/docking and getting bumped, even in a cloaky hauler. Again if the ganker is capable and your undock and warp to insta is a little unlucky, they can insta lock and shoot u. The problem here is simply that even a maxxed cloaky hauler will only survive 1 tornado alpha. So 2 lucky insta boosted tornados will kill u, if something goes wrong at dock/undock. This is especially dangerous at docking, if u land like 2km off from the station and have no MWD/AB or need to activate it and approach. U will need 2-6 seconds to get in range and dock, this is enough time for 2 boosted tornados to lock and kill u!
So u basically have to compare the chances, what is more likely? I will get ganked by 17-26 tornados in Hi-Sec (0.5 vs 0.8 sec) in my orca, just because they are bored or hate me or the 1-2% chance someone gets lucky on u while warping and docking/undocking. U have to decide this for yourself.
bye |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
127
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Posted - 2012.05.31 09:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Gallente is what America believes itself to be.
Caldari is how America is in reality. |
Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2012.05.31 09:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not?
Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. |
Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
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Posted - 2012.06.10 00:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Aluka 7th wrote:
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Fly safe o/
Force Recons (especially the Falcon) work really well for this. Fill the mids with shield buffer an the lows with Istabs and you'll warp like a covops and you'll have a decent tank.
This is a good find. I was going to train my trade alt for a Rapier by default due to the Minmatar reputation for high agility. But now I'm torn between two possibilities.
[Falcon, New Setup 1] Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
[Rapier, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
The issue comes down to that the Falcon has a 0.2 sec align time but 30% larger sig radius. EHP is 90862 for the Rapier versus 90425 for the Falcon, a negligible difference. I'm skeptical whether a 0.2 sec align time difference would mean much in practice (its similar in magnitude to latency for some connections), but the sig radius would make the Rapier noticeably harder to kill if caught. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1843
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Posted - 2012.06.10 00:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service.
Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
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Posted - 2012.06.10 00:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service. Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks.
If the server operates in 1s ticks, is the difference between a 3.6s align time and a 3.8s align time meaningless? |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
73
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Posted - 2012.06.10 00:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Goran Konjich wrote:why hit MWD then cloak on approach ?
On approach? That would get you to the gate faster, and give them less time to scan your cargo. But probably you're seeing references to the MWD+cloak trick.
But don't hit MWD and then cloak; instead, activate the cloak and then activate the MWD. You can activate the MWD just fine after cloaking, and this way saves you from the MWD's sig radius bloom making you much easier to target. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1843
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Posted - 2012.06.10 00:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service. Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks. If the server operates in 1s ticks, is the difference between a 3.6s align time and a 3.8s align time meaningless?
Not sure. I think so, but most of my testing has revolved around the sub 1s - 1s area. And there is no difference between .2s and 1s as far as lock time is concerned. I'm still not sure where it rounds in the 1s - 2s range, though I suspect it's a round up after 1s.
Basically, you can't lock a cloaky before the initial cloak unless they misclick (or forget to cloak or whatever). This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
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Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
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Posted - 2012.06.10 02:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Swapping a LSE for a MWD puts another wrinkle into the Rapier vs Falcon comparison by decreasing the Rapier's EHP significantly more than the Falcon: 71889 vs 74884. I.e. the Falcon manages to erode the Rapier's sig/survivability advantage. I'm not really sure it makes sense to go for a MWD on a high sec, cov ops cloak hauler though.
From what I understand, the whole point of the mwd cloak trick is to make a non cov ops cloak ship reach warp speed while still cloaked. I.e. it insta warps once the cloak drops. Whereas a cov ops cloak requires no special maneuver to warp while cloaked. Furthermore, EFT claims that the mwd will increase align time.
Therefore, it seems like in the scenario of using a cov ops ship to haul in high sec, a mwd would be of no help at best and a detriment at worst. Successfully surviving a high sec gank amounts to lasting until Concord kills the gankers. However, MWDs and/or afterburners would be useful when taking such a hauler into low sec as you actually have to try to escape if gankers manage to catch you. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1844
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Posted - 2012.06.10 02:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:Swapping a LSE for a MWD puts another wrinkle into the Rapier vs Falcon comparison by decreasing the Rapier's EHP significantly more than the Falcon: 71889 vs 74884. I.e. the Falcon manages to erode the Rapier's sig/survivability advantage. I'm not really sure it makes sense to go for a MWD on a high sec, cov ops cloak hauler though.
From what I understand, the whole point of the mwd cloak trick is to make a non cov ops cloak ship reach warp speed while still cloaked. I.e. it insta warps once the cloak drops. Whereas a cov ops cloak requires no special maneuver to warp while cloaked. Furthermore, EFT claims that the mwd will increase align time.
Therefore, it seems like in the scenario of using a cov ops ship to haul in high sec, a mwd would be of no help at best and a detriment at worst. Successfully surviving a high sec gank amounts to lasting until Concord kills the gankers. However, MWDs and/or afterburners would be useful when taking such a hauler into low sec as you actually have to try to escape if gankers manage to catch you.
MWDs are necessary in Null to get you out of bubble camps better. In Low, you will not be caught unless you're unlucky enough to land withing 2km of something. In High, same as low.
You are correct about the MWD-Cloak trick, but if you're ganked in a cloaky hauler on a gate in HS, you're terrible (or spectacularly unlucky with the 2km landing). The problem is during the delay before docking, when you can be alphaed and can't be cloaked. Thus EHP does still matter for HS cloaky hauling.
Recons are moderately good on the EHP for that (enough to give pause), but can be ganked easily enough. BRs and CovOps do get randomly popped by someone bored in a Nado or a Thrasher (respectively).
I still like the Damnation for Troll "Can't Touch This" value, and the Orca (w/Catalysts&gank fittings in regular cargo) for stealth. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
Baneken
Fistful of Finns
131
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Posted - 2012.06.10 08:10:00 -
[73] - Quote
Or just use an orca and keep your stuff in corp hangar, even if someone do gank you they get nothing, not even a kb drops to brag about.
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