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Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
89
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Posted - 2012.03.14 16:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is such a ship and/or fitting possible? I'm not really experienced with PVP or ganking so am in dire need of directions as to what ship and fittings I should train for. My PVE alt can fly Gallente battleships. Should I go for tanking ability or stealth? etc etc etc. Any thoughts appreciated. :) |

Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
In short, no.
Best reasonable option is possibly covops cloaked Slaved buffer proteus. Mostly the being not-afk and cov ops cloaked will save you. After that it's using insta-undock/warp bookmarks. |

Trask II
Hard Knocks Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
There's no such thing as "gank-proof". The only real defense you have against it is a cloaky transport for medium-sized loads, or a tanked frigate that insta-warps for small loads. If they don't have time to scan you, they don't know if you're carrying anything decent. Also, if you autopilot everywhere, that pretty much negates any other defenses you could have. Even if you ubertank your ship, they will just bring more stuff to kill you if your load is worth it. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
949
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
There's no such thing as gank-proof.
However, if you want to have the highest chance of your cargo surviving there are a couple different approaches.
If you're willing to pay attention to your ship (warp to 0 each jump, cloak up as you enter the system, etc), then either a CovOps or Blockade Runner will work fine (which one you need depends on the volume of cargo you need to move). The ships still aren't tanked much at all, but it's hard for someone to kill you if they can't see you more than half a second at a time.
The less effort intensive method would be to get an Orca and use the corp hanger. Stuff in the corp hanger can't be scanned, so no one knows that you're carrying anything, and nothing drops from it, so they don't benefit if they do kill you. And the Orca can have some sizable EHP too. This won't save you if someone really wants you dead, but it will make you a less desirable target (especially if the gankers wouldn't profit from the venture). Warping to 0 is still recommended though, as with everything. |

Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
173
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Go for stealth - especially if in empire space you include lowsec (which is technically empire space you know).
Don't go AFK.
You won't be gank proof, but definitely hard to gank. Avoid doing silly things (i.e. hanging around at Jita 4-4 undock) and you'll be fine. |

Lady Ayeipsia
Tax Dodging Corporation
51
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Low volume, hi-tank... Fly a well fitted HIC. Sure the cargo hold is not large. Still the knuckle or broadsword can top 100k ehp. Plus, most people don't think of scanning a random HIC flying by.
Heck, anything under a billion isk, fly a freighter. Usually if you do not have that high value, you are left alone because it costs to much to pop you.
Also, far more important, know your route. There are systems where gankers ike to camp, avoid those systems. |

Billy Kidd
Two Holes One Tower
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
The best way to transport high-value goods is by carrying them in the corporate hangar array of an orca. Items in the corp hangar will never show up on cargo scans, and will never drop upon ship destruction. No sane suicide ganker would blow you up since they would only lose money in the process. As for the insane ones, well, there's not much you can do about those. |

Cindy Marco
Expanse Security
60
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
I second the Orca for small loads. Fit it for EHP and it becomes a very expensive ship to gank. It has ~40% more hp then T1 freighters and they don't know what your carrying inside the bays. |

Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Orca is the best choice for carrying the high value items. It can get 230k+ ehp and has an unscannable corp hangar. This is the ship you want to get if you carry valuable goods regularily. Here's a fit for that. You will want the MWD to get your align time to 10s:
[Orca, Secure Hauler /w MWD & cloak] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Prototype Cloaking Device I Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I Salvager I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5
For an easier to train and more affordable ship you could use a double-buffered rokh. Obviously you shouldn't carry anything too valuable in it but even with low skills you should be able to get it into 180k (charon) range easily, and with all level V to 230k. This is for high sec use only. Here's a fit:
[Rokh, Courier] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge Electron Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge
Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
Edit: Loading from the draft ate the last I's from some modules. Tech 2 is better :) |

Bashe Zor
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Is such a ship and/or fitting possible? I'm not really experienced with PVP or ganking so am in dire need of directions as to what ship and fittings I should train for. My PVE alt can fly Gallente battleships. Should I go for tanking ability or stealth? etc etc etc. Any thoughts appreciated. :)
Low volume high value: use a can inside an AF, tank it a little and fly manually. Unless you're well-known for hauling expensive stuff it is very unlikely you'll be attacked, and even then; an assault frig is a very hard nut to crack.
|
|

BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
a t3 with covert ops and a interdictor subsystem with warp core stabs in the lows is probably what you are looking for. |

Kolya Medz
Kolya Inc.
44
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
How low volume? If your moving stuff that hardly takes space, like implants and BPs, use a ceptor. You'll warp before they can even scan you. If you moving a larger amount of stuff then ya, get an orca, the unscannable bay is great. |

Dodona
EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kolya Medz wrote:How low volume? If your moving stuff that hardly takes space, like implants and BPs, use a ceptor. You'll warp before they can even scan you. If you moving a larger amount of stuff then ya, get an orca, the unscannable bay is great.
Never fly valuables in anything that will die to smartbombs. |

MacrossGalaxy
KVK Refugee camp Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 19:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dodona wrote:Kolya Medz wrote:How low volume? If your moving stuff that hardly takes space, like implants and BPs, use a ceptor. You'll warp before they can even scan you. If you moving a larger amount of stuff then ya, get an orca, the unscannable bay is great. Never fly valuables in anything that will die to smartbombs.
this  |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
473
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 19:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Orca cargo bay #1 option where what's in your bay must not be scanned Unscannable and six-digit EHP with a DCU II + reinforced bulkheads After that a heavily tanked DST
Then move to a less populated system and switch to a cloaky hauler where the threat of being instaganked on station isn't as bad (cloaky haulers can't cloak while undocking and aligning from a station, making them very vulnerable). |

Adacia Calla
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 19:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Is such a ship and/or fitting possible? I'm not really experienced with PVP or ganking so am in dire need of directions as to what ship and fittings I should train for. My PVE alt can fly Gallente battleships. Should I go for tanking ability or stealth? etc etc etc. Any thoughts appreciated. :)
WHY DOES THIS FORUM CUT OFF EVERYTHING I POST >:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Really depends on the amount of cargo you need. In the years I've been flying my Prowler, I've never had a problem with gate camps, especially those idiots that use EM smartbombs, which the Prowler has particularly good resistance to
Another option is a T3 cruiser, preferably a Loki or Tengu due to better shield resist modules etc and just load the lows with Cargo Expanders if need be. That fit holds 1206m3 of cargo, can switch up the rigs/lows if you don't need as much cargo, but it's worked for me running 0.0 and WH camps.
[Loki, Cargo Expanded Cargohold I Expanded Cargohold I Expanded Cargohold I Expanded Cargohold I
Large Shield Extender I Large Shield Extender I Large Shield Extender I Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive Explosion Dampening Amplifier I Kinetic Deflection Amplifier I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP
Medium Cargohold Optimization Medium Cargohold Optimization Medium Cargohold Optimization
Loki Defensive - Amplification Nod Loki Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyze Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matri Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguratio Loki Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifie Test signature....forum not applying settings :( |

Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate EVE Animal Control
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Is such a ship and/or fitting possible? I'm not really experienced with PVP or ganking so am in dire need of directions as to what ship and fittings I should train for. My PVE alt can fly Gallente battleships. Should I go for tanking ability or stealth? etc etc etc. Any thoughts appreciated. :)
Most cost effective would be a blockade runner I would think. Viator for gallnte i believe?
In empire space it would be very difficult to get ganked while in a cov ops cloaked ship of any kind. Just don't autopilot or anything stupid and make sure you're cloaking immediately.
It would take some very determined people and a very predictable routine on your part to end up ganked in that situation.
This applies to high sec of course. In null sec you'd be better off with a T3. |

Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
As repeated many many times, there is no suck thing as gank proof. All you can do is take steps ti minimize your exposure.
Rule #1 - Have an off grid instant undock, preferably by a few thousand KM as gankers will often have off grid gank ships as well. This applies to any station you undock from on a regular basis IMO. Undocking is when you are the must vulnerable and why people camp the F out of Jita 4 4 undock.
Rule #2 - Your destination station, you should have a bookmark well within docking range. Warp-2-Zero isn't always zero and can leave you a little bit of time before the ship docks. Sometimes that is all it takes
Rule #3 - Covert Ops or Ceptors fitting for AGI are your best bets. At gates you will have less than two seconds of exposure.
Rule #3.5 - If you want max defenses, a HIC/HAC are your best bets. Scorpians can work well too. They must agress you, you can jam them, just don't use Burst, that will get you a Concordukken. |

WARBRO
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 22:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Carrier would be best...if planned right. |

Tobiaz
Spacerats
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 00:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dodona wrote:Kolya Medz wrote:How low volume? If your moving stuff that hardly takes space, like implants and BPs, use a ceptor. You'll warp before they can even scan you. If you moving a larger amount of stuff then ya, get an orca, the unscannable bay is great. Never fly valuables in anything that will die to smartbombs.
High-sec suicide gankers generally don't use smartbombs. |
|

Aldeb Haraz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 07:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:High-sec suicide gankers generally don't use smartbombs. 
Still no reason to risk it, especially if it is an item with extreme value and people know that you are hauling it
As previously stated, the best ship to transport stuff like this is a ship with a covops cloak (EHP fit recons or T3's ideally, blockade runners are fairly conspicuous, have less EHP, and are more likely to be cargo scanned)
An even more safe option (depending on how good you are at lighting cynos) if youre going to lowsec is to simply jump a jump freighter directly from the trade hub undock to a lowsec system. While this obviously doesnt work in the return direction to a trade-hub, it does gaurantee invulnerability from gankers as long as you dont get bumped off your endpoint station. |

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
85
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 09:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Keras Authion wrote:Orca is the best choice for carrying the high value items. It can get 230k+ ehp and has an unscannable corp hangar. This is the ship you want to get if you carry valuable goods regularily. Here's a fit for that. You will want the MWD to get your align time to 10s:
[Orca, Secure Hauler /w MWD & cloak] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Prototype Cloaking Device I Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I Salvager I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5
For an easier to train and more affordable ship you could use a double-buffered rokh. Obviously you shouldn't carry anything too valuable in it but even with low skills you should be able to get it into 180k (charon) range easily, and with all level V to 230k. This is for high sec use only. Here's a fit:
This setup = 236.702 EHP remove Power Diagnostic System II add Reinforced Bulkheads II = 299.624 EHP +60k EHP isn't to bad ;). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |

Simon Magii
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 09:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
I use a blockade runner.
Decent hold for modest size items. Align time and ability to fit a cov-ops cloak mean that they are pretty secure for both High sec and low sec use. Fast warp speed means less time in flight so trips are faster too.
If you use the cloak often you shouldnt be able to be scanned except on undock. Using insta warp points on stations also reduces chance of being scanned.
Never lost one in over 2 years of use.
|

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
143
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 09:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Use cheap freighter service, pay for extra insurance. |

Marcus Henik
Dark Nebula Academy O X I D E
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 10:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
For high sec autopilot use a Drake rokh, or abbadon fit with a rolflamao buffer tank, scorpion works as well. For galente any of the Bs will work, the idea is to look like a mission runner headed out for whatever. Hide in plain sight. These are the cheap options, otherwise try a orca. For low sec anything that warps fast and can be fit with stabs will do the job. |

Nex apparatu5
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
227
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 11:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
If you're running an Orca, I recommend throwing some Veldspar in the Ore bay and some random mining stuff in the cargo.
~camouflage~ |

Selw kotsidakia
Three Deep Cuts
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 11:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Wont say something new but here are my advices for you: a) High sec: Your first bet is a viator(or any blockade runner) with cov ops cloak. Fit meta 4 inertia modfiers on lows if you dont need the expanded cargohold. Your second bet is an orca which can carry 40k in corp hangars. Thats unscannable and doesnt drop if she dies. The fit Keras gave(with 100mn mwd) is the best for trasports as it cuts the align time to 10 seconds from 50 seconds(warp, hit mwd and close it, when mwd goes off you enter warp) For both cases you need insta undock bookmark for the station you use a lot as well as an insta dock one. Both reduces the time you spend near a station near to zero. b)Low sec: Jump freighter is the safest(almost zero risk) hands down. If you want something cheaper for low volume you can go with viator or ceptor.
[Viator, Danger zone] Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Expanded Cargohold II
ECM Burst II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Has 5400 cargo, enouph for 2 frigates/1 cruiser packaged. You can change the expanded cargohold and the rig to something else if you dont want the space. ECM burst just in case. Tank isnt needed because agility is your best friend, thought an invu never hurts. Align time is at 3.7 seconds without mwd. |

Smarcus Smokus
Donkey Punch Pioneers Sticky Green Acres
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 12:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Billy Kidd wrote:The best way to transport high-value goods is by carrying them in the corporate hangar array of an orca. Items in the corp hangar will never show up on cargo scans, and will never drop upon ship destruction. No sane suicide ganker would blow you up since they would only lose money in the process. As for the insane ones, well, there's not much you can do about those.
I thought they fixed this.
Or is it that customs agents can now see illegal items in the corp hangar? |

Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 21:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
WARBRO wrote:Carrier would be best...if planned right.
What sort of planning can get a carrier into high-sec?  |

GreenSeed
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 22:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Smarcus Smokus wrote:Billy Kidd wrote:The best way to transport high-value goods is by carrying them in the corporate hangar array of an orca. Items in the corp hangar will never show up on cargo scans, and will never drop upon ship destruction. No sane suicide ganker would blow you up since they would only lose money in the process. As for the insane ones, well, there's not much you can do about those. I thought they fixed this. Or is it that customs agents can now see illegal items in the corp hangar?
only coustom officers can, players only see the other 2 bays. |
|

M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 00:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cloaky or nothing.
The only real way to be gank proof is to never be scanned for the gank in the first place =) How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Koda Myr'koff
Lollipops for Rancors
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 01:34:00 -
[32] - Quote
Viator pilot checking in! Mine is identical to Selw kotsidakia's except I have more agility stuff instead of the cargo mods. Haven't been caught yet. |

Gypsy Fang
Black Dragon Legion
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 09:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Selw kotsidakia wrote:Wont say something new but here are my advices for you: a) High sec: Your first bet is a viator(or any blockade runner) with cov ops cloak. Fit meta 4 inertia modfiers on lows if you dont need the expanded cargohold. Your second bet is an orca which can carry 40k in corp hangars. Thats unscannable and doesnt drop if she dies. The fit Keras gave(with 100mn mwd) is the best for trasports as it cuts the align time to 10 seconds from 50 seconds(warp, hit mwd and close it, when mwd goes off you enter warp) For both cases you need insta undock bookmark for the station you use a lot as well as an insta dock one. Both reduces the time you spend near a station near to zero. b)Low sec: Jump freighter is the safest(almost zero risk) hands down. If you want something cheaper for low volume you can go with viator or ceptor.
[Viator, Danger zone] Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Expanded Cargohold II
ECM Burst II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Has 5400 cargo, enouph for 2 frigates/1 cruiser packaged. You can change the expanded cargohold and the rig to something else if you dont want the space. ECM burst just in case. Tank isnt needed because agility is your best friend, thought an invu never hurts. Align time is at 3.7 seconds without mwd. Ty, new to game, most helpful post on this topic thus far ^^ |

Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Is such a ship and/or fitting possible? I'm not really experienced with PVP or ganking so am in dire need of directions as to what ship and fittings I should train for. My PVE alt can fly Gallente battleships. Should I go for tanking ability or stealth? etc etc etc. Any thoughts appreciated. :)
1st -crane or viator
2nd-invest in some decent tank
3rd- instant undock BM's
4th -never AFK !!!
Cloacky haulers are simply impossible to catch in high sec unless you start by afk, low skills, bad tank, bad fit yadayada
|

Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
275
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Just fit out a 100k ehp battle cruiser and you'll be fine |

Felin Holtz
Selective Hearing Nearly Feared
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 10:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
I use an I-stabbed raptor to shift low volume high value items.
If you need to carry more than 5 or 6 modules at a time though probably an ultra-tanked battleship? |

4IN1
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 11:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
During my life in lo-sec doing PI simply tells me that nothing better then having a cloaky blockade runner and .....well ......a brain, even with a Badger I can still out run 90% of ganking (with some hairy moment) with an instant warp fit, in fact I am doing so good at it I only ever lost one Badger.
CCP: Ambition but rubbish
|

Kharylien
Masked Rider Project
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 12:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
If when you say Empire space you're talking purely highsec, as in 0.5 and above Concord-protected, I personally have never had a problem flying stuff in a tanked-out Dominix. But I've never moved more than about a billion isk's worth of stuff at a time.
However, it would take an awfully hefty gank camp to beat down a Domi before Concord gets involved. When you're only needing to run it in short bursts, you can easily get a massive EHP with everything-resists and still be dual-rep-capable. I'm pretty sure it's within a decent shout of being unkillable inside Concord response time, unless you have a large, well-organised group who hate you and also know exactly when you're going to be shifting your precious shinies, at which point: mate, you have problems that will not be resolved by ship selection alone.
If you're including lowsec, I agree with the people recommending cloakiness. |

Kalel Nimrott
Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 13:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Freigthers, can take a beat and can move small stuff. Other than that, it requires skills. |

Crellion
Parental Control
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 14:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kharylien wrote:If when you say Empire space you're talking purely highsec, as in 0.5 and above Concord-protected, I personally have never had a problem flying stuff in a tanked-out Dominix. But I've never moved more than about a billion isk's worth of stuff at a time.
However, it would take an awfully hefty gank camp to beat down a Domi before Concord gets involved. When you're only needing to run it in short bursts, you can easily get a massive EHP with everything-resists and still be dual-rep-capable. I'm pretty sure it's within a decent shout of being unkillable inside Concord response time, unless you have a large, well-organised group who hate you and also know exactly when you're going to be shifting your precious shinies, at which point: mate, you have problems that will not be resolved by ship selection alone.
If you're including lowsec, I agree with the people recommending cloakiness.
you have to rethink your strategy even if you think its working right now... |
|

Skorpynekomimi
204
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 15:08:00 -
[41] - Quote
Speed, tank, or cloak. Pick one.
Alternatively, use Red Frog. Costs more, yes, but you're insured against ganks, and YOU aren't at risk of being ganked for your cargo. |

FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 16:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Red Frog is the best option. 100mn MWD Orca is second best. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1637
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 08:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
Damnation with a Legion for Boosts.
852k EHP with Slaves, and if someone wants to shoot 4 freighters worth of EHP, they'll shoot 4 freighters instead of trying to get ~100 people in the same place shooting the same target.
[Damnation, HS Transport]
Damage Control II Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN MicroWarpdrive II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
Improved Cloaking Device II [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Bibosikus
Universal Moose Federation Moose Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 10:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Damnation with a Legion for Boosts.
852k EHP with Slaves, and if someone wants to shoot 4 freighters worth of EHP, they'll shoot 4 freighters instead of trying to get ~100 people in the same place shooting the same target.
+1  The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |

Veronica Kerrigan
Hand Of Midas F0RCEFUL ENTRY
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 16:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Or just insta warp in a shuttle... |

Cutout Man
Archimedean Point
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 17:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Its silly to train for 3 months to fly an Orca that costs 750mil to move small, high value items. Unless, maybe, it exceeds the volume of the available options. In hisec, the only goal is to not get locked. Thats it. No target lock, no scan, no die. Cloaky haulers and covops are always a good choice, but the MWD/Cloak trick works in hisec even better than it does losec (no one moves to kill you immediately). A cargo fitted industrial shuold handle most of the bigger stuff with mwd/cloak.
Again, very simple, your only goal is to not get target locked. |

Mavnas
The Scope Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 22:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
Small agile combat ships also tend to work simply because they're less likely to be scanned (don't stick around long and aren't particularly interesting). If you don't have the skills to fly an orca or transport ship they tend to work pretty well. I've also had my alts move 500m+ in a shuttle before. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
144
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 22:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
[Legion, Hauler]
Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
10MN Afterburner II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating Legion Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Slave Alpha Slave Beta Slave Gamma Slave Delta Slave Epsilon Slave Omega Inherent Implants 'Noble' Hull Upgrades HG-1005
it will take around 35 tornados to kill you, assuming you **** up the cloaking and for some reason dont heat your ab and sig tank them.
Edit: Im bad, the damnation is better for this |

Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian THE UNTHINKABLES
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
Blockade runner has cloak and aligns like a frig if you fit it right
[Viator, lolnope] Expanded Cargohold II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Small Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
It also can pseudo-akf haul if you hit the MWD then cloak on approach I Endorse this Product and/or Service [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16580[/url] |

Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
what is instant undock bookmark ? what is pseudo-akf ? what is instawarp ? why hit MWD then cloak on approach ?
thx! "a diplomat with 425mm briefcase II" |
|

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1654
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
Goran Konjich wrote:what is instant undock bookmark ? what is pseudo-akf ? what is instawarp ? why hit MWD then cloak on approach ?
thx!
Google is your Friend. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Low volume, high value you say? Why not use a Cov-ops Frigate such as the Cheetah? Seems ideal to me. Gallente is what America believes itself to be.
Caldari is how America is in reality. |

Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Google is your Friend.
thx for saving my time you freak with white shirt
"a diplomat with 425mm briefcase II" |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1654
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:45:00 -
[54] - Quote
Goran Konjich wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Google is your Friend. thx for saving my time you freak with white shirt
You are so very welcome. I do try to help. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Nakkano
Internet Space Pimps
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:05:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lol at anyone flying in an industrial or small ship. Get serious for real. I would never carry around anything valuable in a paper tank.
Use a T3. You cannot fck with the EHP of a legion or proteus. We are talking 250-350K Ehp without slaves. And it can cloak.
If you can't afford that, use a a shield buffer plus hull tanked battleship. Oh, that sounds stupid? Try it in EFT. It's at least 200K ehp. This Rokh below checks out at 225k ehp.
[Rokh, F*** You, That's Why] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II
[empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1657
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
Nakkano wrote:Lol at anyone flying in an industrial or small ship. Get serious for real. I would never carry around anything valuable in a paper tank.
Use a T3. You cannot fck with the EHP of a legion or proteus. We are talking 250-350K Ehp without slaves. And it can cloak.
If you can't afford that, use a a shield buffer plus hull tanked battleship. Oh, that sounds stupid? Try it in EFT. It's at least 200K ehp. This Rokh below checks out at 225k ehp.
Armor's better cause you'll forget to turn on the active hardeners the one gate you get a gank attempt. Also, you need a mid for your MWD.
230k EHP plain, 560k with a legion, Slaves, and Navy Enams.
[Abaddon, HS Hauling]
Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
100MN MicroWarpdrive II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
Improved Cloaking Device II [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 14:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Covert-ops blockade runner with below 4 sec align time, should save you from almost anything.
leaves you only vunrable when undocking.
which is best solved with.
1) dock up again if you think you're threatned (first 30 seconds you're invunrable if you do nothing after undocking after 10 seconds you can dock again)
2) make safe point in a straight line from undocking, undock use you 30 seconds to let the ship reach max speed and warp to safe point. |

Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Dodona wrote:Kolya Medz wrote:How low volume? If your moving stuff that hardly takes space, like implants and BPs, use a ceptor. You'll warp before they can even scan you. If you moving a larger amount of stuff then ya, get an orca, the unscannable bay is great. Never fly valuables in anything that will die to smartbombs. High-sec suicide gankers generally don't use smartbombs. 
Thanks for saving me the time. |

nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Covert-ops blockade runner with below 4 sec align time, should save you from almost anything.
leaves you only vunrable when undocking.
which is best solved with.
1) dock up again if you think you're threatned (first 30 seconds you're invunrable if you do nothing after undocking after 10 seconds you can dock again)
2) make safe point in a straight line from undocking, undock use you 30 seconds to let the ship reach max speed and warp to safe point.
ship undocks with max speed, no need to wait for anything. |

Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian THE UNTHINKABLES
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 04:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
Trick is to avoid being ganked in the first place. Just like diseases/injury/poison.
Other than a Blockade Runner, I'd use a Interdiction-Nulliffied Cloaky T3, if you plan on going to bubbleland(Null) Fit the [Racial] Propulsion - Interdiction Nullififer and [Racial] Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration. Lets you fit covops cloak and lets you zoom through bubbles.
Don't forget Warp Core Stabs as well I Endorse this Product and/or Service [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16580[/url] |
|

Aluka 7th
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 08:03:00 -
[61] - Quote
Best way is if you don't get cargo scanned which is possible only if you use ship with covert op. cloak and manually warp to the gates at 0 (or semi-auto which is combination of activated autopilot but you select "warp to 0" before autopilot kicks in after jumping through gate). In that configuration only risky place is when you are undocking because you cant cloak (station is less then 2km from you) For that part use insta undock (that is a bookmark which is 200km or more in line of your undocking vector thus enabling you to warp to it moment you undock almost instantly because there is no need for align time or getting to speed.)
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Why cloak is a must? From my experience in ganking the gankers I decided against T3 with cloak. Gankers kill jump freighter that has 325-365000EHP so having T3 with 200-300k ehp is NOT enough. Extra tank of t3 is not enough and cargo hold is much smaller then one of a cloaky transport ship.
Fly safe o/ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1672
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 08:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aluka 7th wrote:
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Fly safe o/
Force Recons (especially the Falcon) work really well for this. Fill the mids with shield buffer an the lows with Istabs and you'll warp like a covops and you'll have a decent tank. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |

Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cutout Man wrote:Its silly to train for 3 months to fly an Orca that costs 750mil to move small, high value items. Unless, maybe, it exceeds the volume of the available options. In hisec, the only goal is to not get locked. Thats it. No target lock, no scan, no die. Cloaky haulers and covops are always a good choice, but the MWD/Cloak trick works in hisec even better than it does losec (no one moves to kill you immediately). A cargo fitted industrial shuold handle most of the bigger stuff with mwd/cloak.
Again, very simple, your only goal is to not get target locked.
Just a reminder that seems to get misunderstood about getting locked and cloaky haulers vs Orca. First is that u can get "Insta" locked even in a Cloaky Hauler, it takes around 3-4 ships for this setup and the player has to click in space rather than using the overview, since the overview only updates every second, while the 3d space updates directly.
The thing is that if the ganker is lucky he can technically lock u. This has to-do with the server 1 sec working interval for every action. So if u hit "align" optimally 0.3 to 0.5 sec later u can hit cloak and get in the next 1 sec time-slice, but if the next time-slice is 0.7-1 sec further apart, the ganker can try to lock u and with a bit luck might have tried so in your "align" timeslice, so he will get a lock before your "cloak" command arrives at the server and therefor u cant cloak. So depending on the gankers ability and knowledge and your own lag, u are not 100% safe in a cloaky hauler. I would still say the chance is only 1-2%, but don't be surprised if this may actually happen some day.
The next problem is undocking/docking and getting bumped, even in a cloaky hauler. Again if the ganker is capable and your undock and warp to insta is a little unlucky, they can insta lock and shoot u. The problem here is simply that even a maxxed cloaky hauler will only survive 1 tornado alpha. So 2 lucky insta boosted tornados will kill u, if something goes wrong at dock/undock. This is especially dangerous at docking, if u land like 2km off from the station and have no MWD/AB or need to activate it and approach. U will need 2-6 seconds to get in range and dock, this is enough time for 2 boosted tornados to lock and kill u!
So u basically have to compare the chances, what is more likely? I will get ganked by 17-26 tornados in Hi-Sec (0.5 vs 0.8 sec) in my orca, just because they are bored or hate me or the 1-2% chance someone gets lucky on u while warping and docking/undocking. U have to decide this for yourself.
bye |

Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Gallente is what America believes itself to be.
Caldari is how America is in reality. |

Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 09:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not?
Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. |

Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 00:37:00 -
[66] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Aluka 7th wrote:
Ships/fittings Cov. op. frig (worst choice because of low HP), Cloakable transport ship, T3 with Cov. op subsys. I use blockade runner ship (Prorator) with damage control and reinforced bulkheads when undocking Jita 4-4 or pass through smartbomb heavy gate as it has 22k EHP tank which can tank ~70 large smart bomb hits (more than enough :)
Fly safe o/
Force Recons (especially the Falcon) work really well for this. Fill the mids with shield buffer an the lows with Istabs and you'll warp like a covops and you'll have a decent tank.
This is a good find. I was going to train my trade alt for a Rapier by default due to the Minmatar reputation for high agility. But now I'm torn between two possibilities.
[Falcon, New Setup 1] Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
[Rapier, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II Inertia Stabilizers II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
The issue comes down to that the Falcon has a 0.2 sec align time but 30% larger sig radius. EHP is 90862 for the Rapier versus 90425 for the Falcon, a negligible difference. I'm skeptical whether a 0.2 sec align time difference would mean much in practice (its similar in magnitude to latency for some connections), but the sig radius would make the Rapier noticeably harder to kill if caught. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1843
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 00:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service.
Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |

Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 00:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service. Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks.
If the server operates in 1s ticks, is the difference between a 3.6s align time and a 3.8s align time meaningless? |

Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 00:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Goran Konjich wrote:why hit MWD then cloak on approach ?
On approach? That would get you to the gate faster, and give them less time to scan your cargo. But probably you're seeing references to the MWD+cloak trick.
But don't hit MWD and then cloak; instead, activate the cloak and then activate the MWD. You can activate the MWD just fine after cloaking, and this way saves you from the MWD's sig radius bloom making you much easier to target. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1843
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 00:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Andy DelGardo wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:Again; Cov-ops Frigate like the Cheetah.
Cloaking ability, fast and small.
Why not? Smartbombs and not really more agile than a cloaky hauler, the main advantage is that u need a even more crazy remote boost setup to insta lock, but it is still possible. Also we talk about extreme expansive hauling here, so at least u should be able to use a cloaky T3 over a Frigate, while also having a pretty low sig, if not use a transport service. Insta-Lock is a lie. You cannot lock something before it cloaks unless they misclick or something. The server operates in 1s ticks. If the server operates in 1s ticks, is the difference between a 3.6s align time and a 3.8s align time meaningless?
Not sure. I think so, but most of my testing has revolved around the sub 1s - 1s area. And there is no difference between .2s and 1s as far as lock time is concerned. I'm still not sure where it rounds in the 1s - 2s range, though I suspect it's a round up after 1s.
Basically, you can't lock a cloaky before the initial cloak unless they misclick (or forget to cloak or whatever). This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |
|

Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 02:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Swapping a LSE for a MWD puts another wrinkle into the Rapier vs Falcon comparison by decreasing the Rapier's EHP significantly more than the Falcon: 71889 vs 74884. I.e. the Falcon manages to erode the Rapier's sig/survivability advantage. I'm not really sure it makes sense to go for a MWD on a high sec, cov ops cloak hauler though.
From what I understand, the whole point of the mwd cloak trick is to make a non cov ops cloak ship reach warp speed while still cloaked. I.e. it insta warps once the cloak drops. Whereas a cov ops cloak requires no special maneuver to warp while cloaked. Furthermore, EFT claims that the mwd will increase align time.
Therefore, it seems like in the scenario of using a cov ops ship to haul in high sec, a mwd would be of no help at best and a detriment at worst. Successfully surviving a high sec gank amounts to lasting until Concord kills the gankers. However, MWDs and/or afterburners would be useful when taking such a hauler into low sec as you actually have to try to escape if gankers manage to catch you. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1844
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 02:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:Swapping a LSE for a MWD puts another wrinkle into the Rapier vs Falcon comparison by decreasing the Rapier's EHP significantly more than the Falcon: 71889 vs 74884. I.e. the Falcon manages to erode the Rapier's sig/survivability advantage. I'm not really sure it makes sense to go for a MWD on a high sec, cov ops cloak hauler though.
From what I understand, the whole point of the mwd cloak trick is to make a non cov ops cloak ship reach warp speed while still cloaked. I.e. it insta warps once the cloak drops. Whereas a cov ops cloak requires no special maneuver to warp while cloaked. Furthermore, EFT claims that the mwd will increase align time.
Therefore, it seems like in the scenario of using a cov ops ship to haul in high sec, a mwd would be of no help at best and a detriment at worst. Successfully surviving a high sec gank amounts to lasting until Concord kills the gankers. However, MWDs and/or afterburners would be useful when taking such a hauler into low sec as you actually have to try to escape if gankers manage to catch you.
MWDs are necessary in Null to get you out of bubble camps better. In Low, you will not be caught unless you're unlucky enough to land withing 2km of something. In High, same as low.
You are correct about the MWD-Cloak trick, but if you're ganked in a cloaky hauler on a gate in HS, you're terrible (or spectacularly unlucky with the 2km landing). The problem is during the delay before docking, when you can be alphaed and can't be cloaked. Thus EHP does still matter for HS cloaky hauling.
Recons are moderately good on the EHP for that (enough to give pause), but can be ganked easily enough. BRs and CovOps do get randomly popped by someone bored in a Nado or a Thrasher (respectively).
I still like the Damnation for Troll "Can't Touch This" value, and the Orca (w/Catalysts&gank fittings in regular cargo) for stealth. This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody. |

Baneken
Fistful of Finns
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 08:10:00 -
[73] - Quote
Or just use an orca and keep your stuff in corp hangar, even if someone do gank you they get nothing, not even a kb drops to brag about.
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