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Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:23:00 - [91] Originally by: Malcanis Sheesh all I want is for a skill to keep training until it completes level 5. Can you honestly claim that this would make the game worse for anyone? Will you deny that it would make the game nicer for many? Thank you for proving my point. You want a skill queue because it will make the game "nicer". Not because the system is broken, or because allowing a queue would let players develop better, or because of some other non self-serving reason. No, it's because you're too lazy to log in to the game. Originally by: Malcanis What's the big deal about it for you that you have such a problem with it? Did a skill-queue proponent kill your dog or something? I have a problem with it because you're proposing a system that would reward players who do not put in any effort. The current system rewards a player for taking the time to log in and change a skill. Yes it is tedious, but if people are willing to put in that effort, why shouldn't they have an edge/advantage/bonus over those players who will not? Do other games give you experience because you couldn't log in and grind monsters, but someone else could? If I take the time to invent a t2 bpc, you should get one as well, correct? How about real life? Do you get paid because someone else went to work instead of you?
Slanty McGarglefist University of Caille	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Malcanis Sheesh all I want is for a skill to keep training until it completes level 5. Can you honestly claim that this would make the game worse for anyone? Will you deny that it would make the game nicer for many? Thank you for proving my point. You want a skill queue because it will make the game "nicer". Not because the system is broken, or because allowing a queue would let players develop better, or because of some other non self-serving reason. No, it's because you're too lazy to log in to the game. Originally by: Malcanis What's the big deal about it for you that you have such a problem with it? Did a skill-queue proponent kill your dog or something? I have a problem with it because you're proposing a system that would reward players who do not put in any effort. The current system rewards a player for taking the time to log in and change a skill. Yes it is tedious, but if people are willing to put in that effort, why shouldn't they have an edge/advantage/bonus over those players who will not? Do other games give you experience because you couldn't log in and grind monsters, but someone else could? If I take the time to invent a t2 bpc, you should get one as well, correct? How about real life? Do you get paid because someone else went to work instead of you? Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:27:00 - [93] Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. And this is exactly the point I've been trying to C4 blast into this thread. People want a skill queue because they are lazy. Pure and simple. On that premise I say no. Log in. Play the game.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:28:00 - [94] Originally by: Esu Nahalas Don't patronize me, Malconis, especially if you do not hold the intelligence to schedule your activities with regard to a computer game. Just this once I wasn't intending to be patronising (except maybe the thing about the dog). It was an honest question: why do you care if skills can train from level 1-5? I'm not insisting that you spend any effort supporting the proposal, I'm just curious as to why you'd spend any effort opposing it. Would it in any way make the game worse for you personally? Look, I've been playing for nearly 2 years, I've accumulated over 30M SP. Most of my skills take days or weeks. But what the hey, I'm going to respec to Amarr after I've trained T2 large blasters, and I have Small Energy Weapons I, Amarr Frigate 1 and no armour comp skills. There are a lot of short skills in my future and really all I want is for them to be trained up without wasting too much time because I have a life. It's not that I'm too stupid to schedule skills, it's just that it's sometimes not practical. There's no amount of intelligence that will let me spend 9 hours at work and still be able to change a skill after 6 hours. And I say that with the perspective of being able to fly a lot of ships pretty well already - for newer player, every SP is precious. I can, if it comes to it, go "oh well..." if I lose a few hours or a day or two - the loss is far more severe for the new guys. We hear a lot about evE's more mature playerbase - let's cater to the fact we have families and jobs eh? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:31:00 - [95] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. And this is exactly the point I've been trying to C4 blast into this thread. People want a skill queue because they are lazy. Pure and simple. On that premise I say no. Log in. Play the game. I admit it: I'm just too idle to put a request in to IT to get the EvE client installed on my work PC. I'll get on it tomorrow and never mention this topic again. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Plumpy McPudding	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:33:00 - [96] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. And this is exactly the point I've been trying to C4 blast into this thread. People want a skill queue because they are lazy. Pure and simple. On that premise I say no. Log in. Play the game. translation You lazy kids and your school buses! Back in my day I had to walk to school! Five miles, both ways and barefoot in the snow! So I guess all convenience is considered as laziness. What a shame. __________________________ Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:34:00 - [97] Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:35:00 - [98] Edited by: Nicho Void on 03/07/2008 17:35:29 Originally by: Malcanis I admit it: I'm just too idle to put a request in to IT to get the EvE client installed on my work PC. I'll get on it tomorrow and never mention this topic again. Oh FFS. Really? You're going to spill tears of bitter angst all other this thread because you have to be a big boy and go to work whilst other people get to stay home and play internet spaceships? Give me a break. Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. And this is exactly the point I've been trying to C4 blast into this thread. People want a skill queue because they are lazy. Pure and simple. On that premise I say no. Log in. Play the game. translation You lazy kids and your school buses! Back in my day I had to walk to school! Five miles, both ways and barefoot in the snow! So I guess all convenience is considered as laziness. What a shame. translation Log in. Play the game. I'm missing where this is a hard concept.
Slanty McGarglefist University of Caille	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:36:00 - [99] Edited by: Slanty McGarglefist on 03/07/2008 17:37:34 Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. It'll be funny when they do implement a skill queue, which from what I heard from the CSM, CCP IS working on one, that all the naysayers or people touting laziness will use it. Sure it's an assumption, but you can bet that it'll be true. Unlimited skill-queuing is quite silly and no sane person would request it. On the other hand, setting one skill as the next in line is completely logical. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Edited by: Slanty McGarglefist on 03/07/2008 17:37:34 Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. It'll be funny when they do implement a skill queue, which from what I heard from the CSM, CCP IS working on one, that all the naysayers or people touting laziness will use it. Sure it's an assumption, but you can bet that it'll be true. Unlimited skill-queuing is quite silly and no sane person would request it. On the other hand, setting one skill as the next in line is completely logical. I don't have any principled opposition to the idea that a player should set a "secondary" skill that kicks-in when the "primary" skill completes. I have a serious opposition to whining, and I might go ballistic when I see the first "my secondary skill expired before I came back" lamentation thread.
Slanty McGarglefist University of Caille	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:46:00 - [101] Originally by: Esu Nahalas I have a serious opposition to whining, and I might go ballistic when I see the first "my secondary skill expired before I came back" lamentation thread. You and me both good sir . It's safe to say that would be quite inevitable, but they will be quickly ridiculed. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:46:00 - [102] Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Anyway go ahead and enjoy the sense of moral superiority that you're clearly revelling in. I'm sure when you tell your friends that you're "hardcore" and log in at 3AM unlike "that noob marconis" that they're all very impressed. In fact I bet they talk about you all the time. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:47:00 - [103] CCP agreed to look at this while we talked with them in Iceland. The CSM flagged it a high priority issue and the most likely outcome is going to be that we get to nominate a PRIMARY (skill in training) and SECONDARY (skill that the primary will switch too when it completes.) CCP are looking at the programming implications and this should happen. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:48:00 - [104] Edited by: Alz Shado on 03/07/2008 17:48:32 CCP should just break more stuff so that the people who complain to improve the game can instead complain about not making it any worse. Hint: it can always get worse. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:59:00 - [105] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Anyway go ahead and enjoy the sense of moral superiority that you're clearly revelling in. I'm sure when you tell your friends that you're "hardcore" and log in at 3AM unlike "that noob marconis" that they're all very impressed. In fact I bet they talk about you all the time. My name is Xaen, and I approve this message. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 18:02:00 - [106] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Oh? So if I start BS 1, or Carrier 1, or Cap Ship 1, or a dozen other high level skills...you think allowing them to train to level 5 without input is "fundamentally very limited"?
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.03 18:11:00 - [107] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Anyway go ahead and enjoy the sense of moral superiority that you're clearly revelling in. I'm sure when you tell your friends that you're "hardcore" and log in at 3AM unlike "that noob marconis" that they're all very impressed. In fact I bet they talk about you all the time. Funny, how should I interpret your comment that, "Sheesh all I want is for a skill to keep training until it completes level 5." I suspect that your aversion to people you think are claiming "moral superiority" is really an aversion to people that are more intelligent than yourself.
Plumpy McPudding	Posted - 2008.07.03 18:13:00 - [108] Originally by: Jade Constantine CCP agreed to look at this while we talked with them in Iceland. The CSM flagged it a high priority issue and the most likely outcome is going to be that we get to nominate a PRIMARY (skill in training) and SECONDARY (skill that the primary will switch too when it completes.) CCP are looking at the programming implications and this should happen. /thread __________________________ Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.07.03 18:16:00 - [109] Originally by: Nicho Void Yes, those two situation are directly comparable. I have not read one single argument for a skill queue that did not inherently relate to "I'm too lazy/busy/distracted to login to the game to play the game, therefore, it should do it for me." I agree that a skill queue would be nice, but trying to build a righteous argument for it is laughable. "The fact that you would rather not bring the full weight of your work ethic to bear on the most basic, mechanical and tedious busywork associated with --> A Video Game <-- clearly marks you as a lazy and ineffectual person." Certainly nothing laughable about the "righteous" arguments against is there? ___________________________________________
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:00:00 - [110] Originally by: Quelque Chose "The fact that you would rather not bring the full weight of your work ethic to bear on the most basic, mechanical and tedious busywork associated with --> A Video Game <-- but will whine about the time missed, clearly marks you as a lazy and ineffectual person." Fixed that for you.
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:12:00 - [111] Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist Well of course, it's all a matter of convenience that's all. While i don't have a problem keeping track of my skills and logging in to change them, I would most certainly welcome a skill queue. It's one less thing to worry about. And this is exactly the point I've been trying to C4 blast into this thread. People want a skill queue because they are lazy. Pure and simple. On that premise I say no. Log in. Play the game. translation You lazy kids and your school buses! Back in my day I had to walk to school! Five miles, both ways and barefoot in the snow! So I guess all convenience is considered as laziness. What a shame. dude.............were you a black kid in the 1930s in georgia?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:18:00 - [112] Originally by: Damon Ra It only needs to be limited to the skill currently being trained and 1 backup skill and no more. /signed The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:22:00 - [113] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Oh? So if I start BS 1, or Carrier 1, or Cap Ship 1, or a dozen other high level skills...you think allowing them to train to level 5 without input is "fundamentally very limited"? You think that a theoretical maximum of a huge whopping eve-destroying 25% increase of the longest time it's possible for someone to spend without logging in is "unlimited"? Adding a secondary, tertiary... nth skill to a training queue is at least theoretically vulnerable to the slippery slope you're worried about. Letting a single skill train to completion isn't. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Damon Ra It only needs to be limited to the skill currently being trained and 1 backup skill and no more. /signed That would be a big step in the right direction. I'd be happier with one that could only hold 12 hours of short skills and one skill of unrestricted length. See the problem isn't training short skills. The problem isn't training long skills. The problem are the 4-8 hour skills. Most people don't play that long, but it's too short to sleep through or work through. To be able to knock out 2 or 3 of these giant PITAs would be a major boon. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:29:00 - [115] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Esu Nahalas Actually, Marconis, I don't care one way or the other whether skills train from I to V in the absence of input. What I do care about (again, purely in an economic sense) is making sure there is a benefit that accrues to those who "micro-manage" (and pay for) their accounts. If we put in a system of unlimited skill-queuing, then people will simply follow the recipe that inevitably will be posted here. But I'm not asking for "unlimited" skill queueing am I, you semi-literate simian. Training until level 5 complete is fundamentally very limited. I'm sure that even you can see that. Oh? So if I start BS 1, or Carrier 1, or Cap Ship 1, or a dozen other high level skills...you think allowing them to train to level 5 without input is "fundamentally very limited"? You think that a theoretical maximum of a huge whopping eve-destroying 25% increase of the longest time it's possible for someone to spend without logging in is "unlimited"? Adding a secondary, tertiary... nth skill to a training queue is at least theoretically vulnerable to the slippery slope you're worried about. Letting a single skill train to completion isn't. What slippery slope are you worried about? There's absolutely no harm to the EVE community as a whole if one stupid newbie AFK trains for a capital ship, then loses it in a comedy mail because he didn't learn to fly it while he was AFK training. Honestly, what does being forced to log into the game exclusively to switch skills add to the game? The only answers I can come up with are: irritation, additional burden, annoyance, and pain in the ass And I can envision no scenario where training without actually logging in hurts anyone but the person doing it. So what if character sellers do it? They're already doing it. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are far more legitimate players than character farmers, but they're suffering more than the farmers. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Lurana Lay Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:31:00 - [116] Quote: See the problem isn't training short skills. The problem isn't training long skills. The problem are the 4-8 hour skills. Most people don't play that long, but it's too short to sleep through or work through. To be able to knock out 2 or 3 of these giant PITAs would be a major boon. /Signed.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Xaen What slippery slope are you worried about? There's absolutely no harm to the EVE community as a whole if one stupid newbie AFK trains for a capital ship, then loses it in a comedy mail because he didn't learn to fly it while he was AFK training. Honestly, what does being forced to log into the game exclusively to switch skills add to the game? The only answers I can come up with are: irritation, additional burden, annoyance, and pain in the ass And I can envision no scenario where training without actually logging in hurts anyone but the person doing it. So what if character sellers do it? They're already doing it. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are far more legitimate players than character farmers, but they're suffering more than the farmers. I know this. You know this. But it seems that some people find some kind of moral virtue in artificially imposed inconvenience. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:41:00 - [118] Again, from an economic sense (not some BS "moral" sense that some idiots want to use as a strawman), it brings people into the game. And that's it, after all . . . I'm suprised you don't get it . . . CCP is in the business of selling subscriptions, not catering to the players who have advanced to a level where they have they luxury of whining about "inconvenience."
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:42:00 - [119] Originally by: Nicho Void My head is so chock full of moldy offal and bad wind that well, gosh darn it, I'm downright impressed with myself. Nifty, huh? If you can find one example of me whining about missing training time I'll send you 100m ISK. ___________________________________________
Sinnae Takeda	Posted - 2008.07.03 20:21:00 - [120] Originally by: Artemis Rose Originally by: Saracena Originally by: Akita T As long as the queue is disabled when account expires, there's no PERTINENT reason to NOT have one, even of any length. One of a verry shallow length (like, say, even just ONE skill), and having it disabled when account expires, well, that's just rude to not have it. Exactly. Can anyone put up a decent argument to dispute this? I sure the hell can't. It is rude not to have it. Because if it was meant to be in the game, CCP would have patched it in at some point in the last 5 years. This is not an old issue, this will keep coming up, and they have decided for reasons unknown, they don't want one in their game.Rude or not, its their game and we still play it. I'd rather leave RP and SP gains on inactive accounts instead of getting a skill queue of any kind. The thought of Carrier V or any other long skill being trained, and a few extra ISK being gained in research is quite motivating reason to return to the spacelanes. Its not a bad thing when experienced players return to play Eve. oh gosh, no! not the "it must stay the way it is, because that's the way it is" argument. i just can't bear the logical beauty of it!

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