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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Promithius on 09/07/2008 21:12:01
I have noticed a trend of late that the markets for faction mods and ships has been slowing down a lot. Having spoken to people that usually buy these things it has become apparent that the reason people are buying them less is the ease at which there getting suicide ganked in empire. Typically mission runners would be the main buyers of say CNR's and gist stuff , but now they wont buy the stuff for fear of losing them leaving jita (and other trade hubs).
So i looked into it a little further,
i have not run the numbers yet myself but it seems that the cost of suicide ganking say , a cnr is in the low tens of millions, aprox 20 mil.
and ganking freighters as little as 100-200 mil , due to the ships being used to gank them being fully insured.
this has always heppend as long as i have been playing but its getting to the point where its so frequent its damaging the gameplay.
im all for being able to do anything you like , if it was up to me id bring back destructible sentry guns and remove concord spwaning, but perhaps voiding the insurance on a ship if its destroyd for criminal agression would be in order.
After all if i set my own car on fire, my insurance company arnt going to replace it for me.
I am awere there is this pre existing topic
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=815986
but i think that its to flamed and trold, and its opting to remove it compleatly , where as i believe that the mechanic simply needs to be revised. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:12:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Promithius
but now they wont buy the stuff for fear of losing them leaving jita (and other trade hubs)
Originally by: Promithius
trade hubs
Solution located.
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DesuSigs |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:13:00 -
[3]
Or people could just learn to use an Inty or something when picking up such mods...
...
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:14:00 -
[4]
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Promithius
but now they wont buy the stuff for fear of losing them leaving jita (and other trade hubs)
Originally by: Promithius
trade hubs
Solution located.
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them. Also its not just happening around trade hubs , but in the middle of no where along jump routs between empiers , iv jumped between caldar and amarr space and seen 100+ concord spawnblobs enough to know that its not just happening in jita :)
I think its fair to say if your ship dies to concord because of sompthing you did then the insurance should be voided.
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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Or people could just learn to use an Inty or something when picking up such mods...
Thats true but it wont make much of a difference, they scan everyone and if they can gank a freighter a haulers just as easy. |
Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Promithius
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them. Also its not just happening around trade hubs , but in the middle of no where along jump routs between empiers , iv jumped between caldar and amarr space and seen 100+ concord spawnblobs enough to know that its not just happening in jita :)
That's only because certain people leave multi-billion freighters on autopilot when travelling between the empires.
Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Promithius
I think its fair to say if your ship dies to concord because of sompthing you did then the insurance should be voided.
Nope, it's not fair at all. I'm gonna crosspost something for ya:
Quote:
Why should someone who willingly takes his ship into a warzone (low- nul sec) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who doesn't see fit to protect himself and his cargo get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who self-destructs his own ship get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who flies around in an empire war get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who flies a ship into a pirate hot-zone (any mission) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who mines where pirates are known to lurk about (asteroid belts) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should anyone get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Now can we please keep this topic to one thread?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Promithius
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them.
Uh, the game isn't responsible for the trade hubs.
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DesuSigs |
Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:20:00 -
[10]
Nope, it's not fair at all. I'm gonna crosspost something for ya:
Quote:
Why should someone who willingly takes his ship into a warzone (low- nul sec) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who doesn't see fit to protect himself and his cargo get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who self-destructs his own ship get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who flies around in an empire war get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who flies a ship into a pirate hot-zone (any mission) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should someone who mines where pirates are known to lurk about (asteroid belts) get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Why should anyone get insurance? It doesn't make sense.
Now can we please keep this topic to one thread?
While its true that under all conditions the insurance makes no scene at all , im purely suggesting this as a mechanic to reduce the problem , if you have any other ideas then feel free to express them. |
Phintaiss
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Promithius
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Promithius
but now they wont buy the stuff for fear of losing them leaving jita (and other trade hubs)
Originally by: Promithius
trade hubs
Solution located.
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them. Also its not just happening around trade hubs , but in the middle of no where along jump routs between empiers , iv jumped between caldar and amarr space and seen 100+ concord spawnblobs enough to know that its not just happening in jita :)
I think its fair to say if your ship dies to concord because of sompthing you did then the insurance should be voided.
Insurance is meaningless when it comes to this. We're talking a 50 million isk setup BC or something like it, and a hauler with 100 mllion + in cargo. 300 mil. + is probably a better average.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Promithius
While its true that under all conditions the insurance makes no scene at all , im purely suggesting this as a mechanic to reduce the problem , if you have any other ideas then feel free to express them.
Actually I do. My idea, novel as it is, is that there is no suicide ganking problem. That people are starting to think about what they fit to their ships and reduce their risk are good things. Sure, it hurts those who exclusively trade in high-end items, but overall it makes for a better game and better players.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Promithius
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them.
Uh, the game isn't responsible for the trade hubs.
feel free to pick apart my words and be pedantic if you like , its plain that what i mean by that is that players wont stop going to jita and rens and amarr ect to sell there stuff ot when they need to buy things.
Therefore it is not reasonable to say that trade hugs are the cause of the problem, the cause is the ease at which it can be done. |
Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:25:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Actually I do. My idea, novel as it is, is that there is no suicide ganking problem. That people are starting to think about what they fit to their ships and reduce their risk are good things. Sure, it hurts those who exclusively trade in high-end items, but overall it makes for a better game and better players.
Thats a fair point, and anything that encourages players to think in diferent ways is a good thing, but at the same time there is little that can be done to fit freighters differently. Or to avoid the jump routs between empires. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Promithius
feel free to pick apart my words and be pedantic if you like
Thanks.
Anyway, leaving the hubs is something of a solution, and it still counts even if the players refuse to make use of it.
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DesuSigs |
Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:29:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tippia on 09/07/2008 21:29:43
Originally by: Promithius
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Promithius
trade hubs
Solution located.
Don't get me wrong i cant stand being anywhere near them , but i don't see the game removing them.
I think his unspoken suggestion wasn't to do anything about trade hubs, but rather to start selling the stuff closer to where the buyers actually live (as opposed to where they shop) so they are no longer afraid of losing the stuff while in transit.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Promithius
Thats a fair point, and anything that encourages players to think in diferent ways is a good thing, but at the same time there is little that can be done to fit freighters differently. Or to avoid the jump routs between empires.
True, but there are still ways to mitigate one's risks. For one, a freighter pilot will eliminate 90% of his risk by simply being at the key board. That won't help if he is specifically targeted for a gank, though. A couple of things remain in the on-the-ball freighter pilot's arsenal:
- He can have a scout in front on him alerting him to any blobs of battleships on gates.
- He can have a small craft with a webber flying next to him, webbing him as he aligns for warp, making him warp much faster.
- He can keep an escort of command ships with armor links or logistics ships with him. This might give him that extra buffer to survive the gank attempt.
There is no certainties here. The gank squad might have brough along extra people, his scout might **** up or the logistics ships might DC, but then again, there shouldn't be any certainties in Eve.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:33:00 -
[18]
i agree with you on almost all levels , im not suggesting that it should be 100% safe to do anything, removing risk removes the essence of eve.
what im getting at is that at present there is no risk in suicide ganking. you lose no money to speak of , you make at least 1000% of what you pay, in this respect it should be rebalanced. |
Volir
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:35:00 -
[19]
I think a solution requires there to be a problem
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Modrak Vseth
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:36:00 -
[20]
The "solution" is the "problem". If the demand for high end mods is going down because people are afraid of losing them, that means there are less being moved around. That also means the gankers are seeing less of them as well.
It will eventually get to a point that the isk:time ratio is just too great and it would be more profitable to stare at a rock then to sit on a gate and wait for that rare high end mod to come through. Then the gankers will move on to other things, people will feel safer, start buying high end mods, gankers come back, buyers whine, buyers stop buying, gankers leave, buyers start buying.... ad infinitum.
TL;DR: It's all about the cycles. It balances itself out as it is, taking away insurance just kills the "downswing" (or upswing, depending on which side of the gank you're on).
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Mirromar
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:41:00 -
[21]
I agree with you Prom and there should be more of a balance. Amar istelf has become the corner drugstore where all the dopers hang out (pirates). I can see the effect it's having on prices on many goods let alone the faction stuff I most requently buy. I didn't have to go to Amar but the faction items keep dissappearing and I have to look further away.
I don't know what the solution is but I do think there should be something stricter implimented. After all what good is 1 sec level if there's to many easy ways for the crooks to get around it? I think this should be taken to the eve leadership.
I WANT MY FACTION ITEMS !! |
Swalesey
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:42:00 -
[22]
I would also like to see insurance payment removed in a case where concorde places the final blow. If concorde are directly responsible for the destruction of a ship, they should revoke your insurance claim.
I don't dislike pirates, or gankers. I do se ethat the concorde response was put there for a reason ,and that was to protect players in higher security systems from player aggression. If suicide ganking is used to bypass this system, that is not how the game mechanics is supposed to work. Insurance is good to protect yourself, but it is not supposed to be for this purpose. As has already been said, if your ganking a freighter who's afk they diserve it. Ganka way imo. If your getting a good ahul out of a freighter cargo, it doesn't matter if you get no insurance.
What it does effect is the mining barges. these ships don't raly offer any benefit to the guys bloweing them up, other than they are blowing up some miner's prized barge through a loop in the system. If the insurance was gone in a case like that, it'd put financial burden onto the ganker, that might just make them think about what they are doing. It shouldn't be free to suicide gank someone.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Modrak Vseth
The "solution" is the "problem". If the demand for high end mods is going down because people are afraid of losing them, that means there are less being moved around. That also means the gankers are seeing less of them as well.
It will eventually get to a point that the isk:time ratio is just too great and it would be more profitable to stare at a rock then to sit on a gate and wait for that rare high end mod to come through.
Not to mention that if people are less inclined on buying them, the gankers won't have anyone to sell their loot to, making it even less profitable…
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Promithius
Amarr
Subach-Tech
Warp to Desktop
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:52:00 -
[24]
thats true of faction items ect.
but there are some things that must flow or eveythign stops (foresees manny dune quotes ahead)
the whole game runs off supply chains, they are ganking freighters full of ice , and t2 construction materials it does not matter , that stuff will still sell, and it will be worth more because less of it is getting through. |
Slanty McGarglefist
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:54:00 -
[25]
So you're surmising that faction mods and ships demand are down just because of suicide ganking? That's a bit thin don't you think? Have you considered that the market has a tendency to move slower during the summer months? This trend has occurred every year.
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
No
Doh! |
MissDX
Time to Duel
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:56:00 -
[26]
Well Prom, i agree with you, as i used to dabble in the faction items market, the high demand for the mods ranging from simple hardners to the rare mods has gone down hill rapidly. (Most of it due to CCP bringing faction mods into emp plexs 2)
The insurance idea is good, as u said, u wouldnt get ya insurance if u set ur own car on fire (unless ur crafty )  LOL but no it shud b wiped if concord laid 1 shot on u (and missed  )
Or maybe CCP should bring in a thingymebobberdobbererer when u have engaged in illegal activites, you have said minutes to jump said systems or u dont get ur insurance payout, that way they have to work for it instead of just having a late nite romp with concord 
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:56:00 -
[27]
Fight Back
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.09 22:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Promithius
After all if i set my own car on fire, my insurance company arnt going to replace it for me.
Would your insurance company cover the loss of your car if you took it out to some 3rd world failed state, strapped a couple of machine guns to it and used it to fight smugglers and hijackers as a mercenary?
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General StarScream
CocioCom
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Posted - 2008.07.09 22:03:00 -
[29]
oh no cheepe'r factio'n mod's for pv'p.
fixe's hi's shir't
Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lieutenant Isis
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.09 22:04:00 -
[30]
Ganking is cool, but insurance should be removed from the game entirely. I mean your in warships! You don't see State Farm insuring the US Navy do you?
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