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Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:56:00 - [1] I'll admit it. I was "kind of" a nano pilot. I had a nano'd Ishtar but I still spent the majority of my time in a Domi. 2nd most flown ship was the megathron and the brutix. I am really pretty worried about this new MWD nerf. With warp disruptor now shutting down MWD's how are blaster boats going to get/stay in range? I just don't think a after burner is going to cut it when you have to be inside of 5k do deal decent damage.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:57:00 - [2] I'm worried about our entire race. Yeah. Sorry.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Ignatious Mei I'll admit it. I was "kind of" a nano pilot. I had a nano'd Ishtar but I still spent the majority of my time in a Domi. 2nd most flown ship was the megathron and the brutix. I am really pretty worried about this new MWD nerf. With warp disruptor now shutting down MWD's how are blaster boats going to get/stay in range? I just don't think a after burner is going to cut it when you have to be inside of 5k do deal decent damage. Warp Scrambler, not Warp Disruptor. The difference is huge. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:03:00 - [4] It's a change to scramblers not diruptors only and their range is tiny, by the time the effect hits you you'll already be in range to web the target. Besides it not like a web where you lose all your speed plus you'll have plenty of momentum to reach the target. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Akyla Originally by: Ignatious Mei I'll admit it. I was "kind of" a nano pilot. I had a nano'd Ishtar but I still spent the majority of my time in a Domi. 2nd most flown ship was the megathron and the brutix. I am really pretty worried about this new MWD nerf. With warp disruptor now shutting down MWD's how are blaster boats going to get/stay in range? I just don't think a after burner is going to cut it when you have to be inside of 5k do deal decent damage. Warp Scrambler, not Warp Disruptor. The difference is huge. Indeed, I thought it was both. Thanks for pointing that out but I still see it being a issue. With a MWD if you got webbed you would at least still get a decent speed towards a target. Now a scram+web will pretty much keep you from getting inside 10k. Sure, you can fit a afterburner but a web will more or less make that pretty pointless.
Crae Matreki Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:15:00 - [6] The MWD will still be more than enough to get you into range, and the web nerf means your speed won't drop off so quickly, either. We managed before everything went nano, and we'll manage afterwards.
Jordan Musgrat H A V O C The Requiem	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:16:00 - [7] The Megathron is affected the least out of all blaster boats actually. Deimos is much worse, and the blaster ranis will be simply unflyable. With the Mega, at least you can fit a scram and web with your mwd, stop your target's speed completely, and slide into void range. With smaller ships, the regular point/web setup gets turned into almost a dual web + point setup, which means you die really fast. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Crae Matreki The MWD will still be more than enough to get you into range, and the web nerf means your speed won't drop off so quickly, either. We managed before everything went nano, and we'll manage afterwards. Aye, but before everything went nano warp scrams were not shutting off MWD's :)
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 - [9] Though we can't be sure until monday when we can test it on sisi, I'm pretty sure that the warp scram will not instantly shut down your MWD and cut all your speed. More likely, it will prevent reactivation of the MWD, allowing you the time before the 10sec cycle ends to close range, and you will still have to bleed off the intertia once it does shut down. The result of this will be that yes, you get hit by a warp scram and are unable to reactivate your MWD, but you will still coast right in on your target, which you will have webbed of course. You will still be able to get right up on in someones face under this system. The big change with this is that targets have more options to get back out of range once you close on them. If you don't have a scram fitted and they have an MWD, then they will be able to open up range on you fairly quickly with the new weaker webs. If they have an AB, you have an MWD, and you both have scrams, then they will also maintain a speed advantage (given similar base velocities). This new system means that close range combat is no longer and on/off proposition, webs and MWD's no longer ensure that once in close range you are stuck there. This is a wonderful change to eve combat. More potential and viable setups = more fun for everyone. -- Don't harsh my mellow
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat The Megathron is affected the least out of all blaster boats actually. Deimos is much worse, and the blaster ranis will be simply unflyable. With the Mega, at least you can fit a scram and web with your mwd, stop your target's speed completely, and slide into void range. With smaller ships, the regular point/web setup gets turned into almost a dual web + point setup, which means you die really fast. Thats kind of odd because I was thinking the deimos might actually be a bit better off now. It can fit a Afterburner and with decent skills still get up to about 600ms.

Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Wannabehero Though we can't be sure until monday when we can test it on sisi, I'm pretty sure that the warp scram will not instantly shut down your MWD and cut all your speed. More likely, it will prevent reactivation of the MWD, allowing you the time before the 10sec cycle ends to close range, and you will still have to bleed off the intertia once it does shut down. The result of this will be that yes, you get hit by a warp scram and are unable to reactivate your MWD, but you will still coast right in on your target, which you will have webbed of course. You will still be able to get right up on in someones face under this system. The big change with this is that targets have more options to get back out of range once you close on them. If you don't have a scram fitted and they have an MWD, then they will be able to open up range on you fairly quickly with the new weaker webs. If they have an AB, you have an MWD, and you both have scrams, then they will also maintain a speed advantage (given similar base velocities). This new system means that close range combat is no longer and on/off proposition, webs and MWD's no longer ensure that once in close range you are stuck there. This is a wonderful change to eve combat. More potential and viable setups = more fun for everyone. I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless.
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Jordan Musgrat The Megathron is affected the least out of all blaster boats actually. Deimos is much worse, and the blaster ranis will be simply unflyable. With the Mega, at least you can fit a scram and web with your mwd, stop your target's speed completely, and slide into void range. With smaller ships, the regular point/web setup gets turned into almost a dual web + point setup, which means you die really fast. Thats kind of odd because I was thinking the deimos might actually be a bit better off now. It can fit a Afterburner and with decent skills still get up to about 600ms. But a web will still buy your ab at 200m/s
Anubis Hatak OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:27:00 - [13] People should really consider that not everyone is willing to sacrifice a midslot for a 9km scram. I'd much rather have a 24km disruptor, what happens when someone jumps through the gate? If you are lucky they decloak next to you but 90% of the time they will be way too far for your 9km scram to work. In larger gangs yes, there may be a ship dedicated to shutting off your MWD, in which case your deimos/taranis would have to run/stay and die anyway, but really I don't think many people are going to use them over the 24km... especially amarr/caldari pilots.
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:28:00 - [14] Is the warp scrambler keeping its original role, or is it solely for killing MWDs?
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Wannabehero Though we can't be sure until monday when we can test it on sisi, I'm pretty sure that the warp scram will not instantly shut down your MWD and cut all your speed. More likely, it will prevent reactivation of the MWD, allowing you the time before the 10sec cycle ends to close range, and you will still have to bleed off the intertia once it does shut down. The result of this will be that yes, you get hit by a warp scram and are unable to reactivate your MWD, but you will still coast right in on your target, which you will have webbed of course. You will still be able to get right up on in someones face under this system. The big change with this is that targets have more options to get back out of range once you close on them. If you don't have a scram fitted and they have an MWD, then they will be able to open up range on you fairly quickly with the new weaker webs. If they have an AB, you have an MWD, and you both have scrams, then they will also maintain a speed advantage (given similar base velocities). This new system means that close range combat is no longer and on/off proposition, webs and MWD's no longer ensure that once in close range you are stuck there. This is a wonderful change to eve combat. More potential and viable setups = more fun for everyone. I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless. Amar ships are gona be pretty sweet with a gang mate.... huge optimal and damage... mmmm good. Btw i just got a dread guristas warp scrambler, maybe now ill be able to get rid of it for more than a million isk.
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:33:00 - [16] Arazu/Lach with recon 4 or 5 will have about 18-22km range with a faction scram, some of which are pretty cheap, around 2-5mil for a DG (for now). Of course with overloading, that is going to make that scram go farther. Let's not even talk about the chance of some jerk running around with an arazu packing an officer scram (yes you can fit some to arazu/lach). Arazu will be the king of recons again, and rapier/huginn will be meh at best. (also, some of the inties and the Keres has bonus to scram/distuptor range, although not as significant as the gallente recon class)
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Troubadour Arazu/Lach with recon 4 or 5 will have about 18-22km range with a faction scram, some of which are pretty cheap, around 2-5mil for a DG (for now). Of course with overloading, that is going to make that scram go farther. Let's not even talk about the chance of some jerk running around with an arazu packing an officer scram (yes you can fit some to arazu/lach). Arazu will be the king of recons again, and rapier/huginn will be meh at best. (also, some of the inties and the Keres has bonus to scram/distuptor range, although not as significant as the gallente recon class) I have also been thinking about this. I am considering training the skills for a recon now that my ishtar will be more or less worthless. Would mean I didnt waste training gal cruiser to 5.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:50:00 - [18] RIP Ranis/Brutix/Thorax/Deimos and the minmatar race. All hail our missile/laser overlords
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Euriti RIP Ranis/Brutix/Thorax/Deimos and the minmatar race. All hail our missile/laser overlords Ha. I already guessed this was going to happen, amarr cruiser 5 finishes in 3 days. Screw my 25m SP in minmatar ships, I didn't want it anyway.
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Troubadour Arazu/Lach with recon 4 or 5 will have about 18-22km range with a faction scram, some of which are pretty cheap, around 2-5mil for a DG (for now). Of course with overloading, that is going to make that scram go farther. Let's not even talk about the chance of some jerk running around with an arazu packing an officer scram (yes you can fit some to arazu/lach). Arazu will be the king of recons again, and rapier/huginn will be meh at best. (also, some of the inties and the Keres has bonus to scram/distuptor range, although not as significant as the gallente recon class) The description of the Arazu says it's 20% bonus is to disruptor range. Scrams are not disruptors. Can you help me understand how these changes are going to help the Arazu? I'd love to fly one...

Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:53:00 - [21] In EFT, scrams get the ship bonus as well, so either its an error on their part, or a typo somewhere else.
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 - [22] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Euriti RIP Ranis/Brutix/Thorax/Deimos and the minmatar race. All hail our missile/laser overlords Ha. I already guessed this was going to happen, amarr cruiser 5 finishes in 3 days. Screw my 25m SP in minmatar ships, I didn't want it anyway. I had finished training minmatar cruiser V a couple months ago, and have been spending time trying to figure out which T2 cruiser class I wanted to get, but it seems now that all my choices are going to be a waste. Gallente recons will replace the rapier/huginn, the vagabond is going to be useless, and the only thing left if the HIC. Looks like I am going to finally get that Curse I have always wanted...
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Arcon Telf on 25/07/2008 17:55:03 Originally by: Transmaniacon In EFT, scrams get the ship bonus as well, so either its an error on their part, or a typo somewhere else. Is it that way in practice? How come no one has mentioned the Fleeting Warp Scrambler, with its 20km range?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 25/07/2008 17:55:03 Originally by: Transmaniacon In EFT, scrams get the ship bonus as well, so either its an error on their part, or a typo somewhere else. Is it that way in practice? How come no one has mentioned the Fleeting Warp Scrambler, with its 20km range? That's a disruptor with a misnomer.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Arcon Telf Originally by: Transmaniacon In EFT, scrams get the ship bonus as well, so either its an error on their part, or a typo somewhere else. Is it that way in practice? How come no one has mentioned the Fleeting Warp Scrambler, with its 20km range? Pretty sure I recall a corpmate used t2 9km scramblers on his and they get the bonus. This can even be boosted by interdiction maneuvers ganglink.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:21:00 - [26] yes they get the bonus. With Recon V, Mindlinked claymore, and Domination Warp Scrambler, an arazu/lach can hit 37.5KM Scram range overheated. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Troubadour Arazu/Lach with recon 4 or 5 will have about 18-22km range with a faction scram, some of which are pretty cheap, around 2-5mil for a DG (for now). Of course with overloading, that is going to make that scram go farther. Let's not even talk about the chance of some jerk running around with an arazu packing an officer scram (yes you can fit some to arazu/lach). Arazu will be the king of recons again, and rapier/huginn will be meh at best. (also, some of the inties and the Keres has bonus to scram/distuptor range, although not as significant as the gallente recon class) I have also been thinking about this. I am considering training the skills for a recon now that my ishtar will be more or less worthless. Would mean I didnt waste training gal cruiser to 5. I know it's hard to remember back then, but pre-nanocraze, people DIDN'T kit all their HACs/RECONs for speed, and they still worked well. The ishtar kicked ass then, kicks ass now, and will still kick ass post speed nerfs. I actually have a few fits for the ishtar I've been wanting to use that are non-nano fits. Now I'll have an opportunity to try them out and not fear getting face****d by nanos lol.
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:33:00 - [28] Originally by: Arcon Telf Originally by: Troubadour Arazu/Lach with recon 4 or 5 will have about 18-22km range with a faction scram, some of which are pretty cheap, around 2-5mil for a DG (for now). Of course with overloading, that is going to make that scram go farther. Let's not even talk about the chance of some jerk running around with an arazu packing an officer scram (yes you can fit some to arazu/lach). Arazu will be the king of recons again, and rapier/huginn will be meh at best. (also, some of the inties and the Keres has bonus to scram/distuptor range, although not as significant as the gallente recon class) The description of the Arazu says it's 20% bonus is to disruptor range. Scrams are not disruptors. Can you help me understand how these changes are going to help the Arazu? I'd love to fly one... Scrams get the bonus as well.
Zukira Al'Kalish	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:08:00 - [29] Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships...
Troubadour Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships... I'll tell you the same thing i tell everyone else, the Lach and Arazu are damn good recons, and never stopped being that. damp "nerf" didn't really effect the gal recons that much as they reworked and nerfed sensorboosters as well. Nobody seemed to realize this and just stopped flying the arazu and lach for no good reason. 2-3 damps with range scripts are enough to shut down 1-3 ships, depending on what they are flying. And unlike ECM, it's not chance based, which is good.

Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:31:00 - [31] Originally by: Troubadour Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships... I'll tell you the same thing i tell everyone else, the Lach and Arazu are damn good recons, and never stopped being that. damp "nerf" didn't really effect the gal recons that much as they reworked and nerfed sensorboosters as well. Nobody seemed to realize this and just stopped flying the arazu and lach for no good reason. 2-3 damps with range scripts are enough to shut down 1-3 ships, depending on what they are flying. And unlike ECM, it's not chance based, which is good. You are terribly wrong. Sensor boosters were nerfed in only one way: scripts. Disruptors were nerfed in 2 ways: scripts and HIGHLY DIMINUSHED EFFECTIVITY, even in a single attribute when using scripts for that attribute. Now, if this change comes to be, arazus and lachesis will have at least a reasonable role, but that does not mean dampeners are fine. Dampeners on damp ships should be looked at, because as of now a tracking disruptor arazu or an ecm arazu is much better than a dampener arazu. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Ignatious Mei I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless. Blaster ships will be able to approach their targets just fine. The MWD shut down from scramblers + 50-60% speed reduction from a web is about the same of the previous 90% speed reduction of a single web, and at about the same range. There is no change regarding this dynamics. On the other hand, blaster ships where useless against nano ships, which may not be the case anymore after the changes. Depending on the end values of these two modules you may see a very different scenario in nano combat, and maybe deimos will end being mean against other hacs, finally. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:50:00 - [33] Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Anubis Xian Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:52:00 - [35] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh. This is a minnie buff if anything. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Anubis Xian Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Wrong thread? Or wtf are you talking about, lol. If in response to Astro's post on page 1, um, yeah, we have more ships than the Vagabond, although the whiners probably wouldn't know that.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh. This is a minnie buff if anything. Right.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Anubis Xian This is a minnie buff if anything. I have just lost faith in the S+M forum.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:23:00 - [39] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian This is a minnie buff if anything. I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian This is a minnie buff if anything. I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part. So you think this is a minnie buff... because the speed difference between minmatar ships and other ships has gotten smaller? Can I subscribe to your newsletter?

oniplE Loving Pirates	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Ignatious Mei I agree that more setups is definitely good however...I'm worried that 90 percent of the ships your going to see on the battlefield now are going to be domi's and torp ravens. Without being able to stay in range a blaster boat is pretty worthless. Blaster ships will be able to approach their targets just fine. The MWD shut down from scramblers + 50-60% speed reduction from a web is about the same of the previous 90% speed reduction of a single web, and at about the same range. There is no change regarding this dynamics. On the other hand, blaster ships where useless against nano ships, which may not be the case anymore after the changes. Depending on the end values of these two modules you may see a very different scenario in nano combat, and maybe deimos will end being mean against other hacs, finally. The advantage for blaster ships is that they dont require to burn a cap expensive MWD to reach the same speed as before the "nerf" when webbed. So that is good i guess. But because of the overal speed nerf it will take longer to actually get to the target. Making it to the target in one piece will be harder. x
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:44:00 - [42] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian This is a minnie buff if anything. I have just lost faith in the S+M forum. Minnie are still faster than everyone else. Granted the difference isn't pronounced enough for the most part. So you think this is a minnie buff... because the speed difference between minmatar ships and other ships has gotten smaller? Can I subscribe to your newsletter? Well, actually it has gotten effectively bigger. Because the speed difference matters more now than it did before. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Anubis Xian Well, actually it has gotten effectively bigger. Because the speed difference matters more now than it did before. Not sure I buy that. I need to dig up the speed formula, but it should all work out to be percentages. Like it normally is.
Transmaniacon Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.07.25 20:55:00 - [44] Minmatar's speed is greater than other ships, but now with less modifiers, it does not have the potential to be as high. The higher modifiers were very pronounced on minmatars higher speed, because the top speed grew quickly with the stacking ability, where as now the lower ammount of modifiers and higher stacking penalty will make minmatar top speeds much closer to speed achieved by other race's ships. Astro knows what hes talking about.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:30:00 - [45] I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian Uh...who says the Vagabond won't be good after the balance? Because the vagabond is minmatar... and minmatar is the vagabond. It's okay, we don't have any other ships tbh. This is a minnie buff if anything. This is not saying the sky is not falling. This is calling it a buff. This is stupid.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:36:00 - [47] Originally by: Anubis Xian I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling. It's not. But any way you cut it, it's going to hit hard in one of minmatar's few advantages. Our frigates are okay. Our battleships suck. Our capitals are laughable to downright pathetic. All we have are our cruisers. This nerf already hits two of them hard (Rapier, Huginn). Potentially another 4 (Vagabond, stabber, fleet stabber, fleet bellicose(eh..)). Hits both of our command ships hard. Hits our logistics hard. If this nerf does in those 4 ships I listed (it probably won't, but we'll see), we're left with the worst sniper hac and a hic. Either way you cut it, CCP basically knifed a bunch of our ships in the chest. It's most certainly not a boost to minmatar, any way you look at it.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:48:00 - [48] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling. It's not. But any way you cut it, it's going to hit hard in one of minmatar's few advantages. Our frigates are okay. Our battleships suck. Our capitals are laughable to downright pathetic. All we have are our cruisers. This nerf already hits two of them hard (Rapier, Huginn). Potentially another 4 (Vagabond, stabber, fleet stabber, fleet bellicose(eh..)). Hits both of our command ships hard. Hits our logistics hard. If this nerf does in those 4 ships I listed (it probably won't, but we'll see), we're left with the worst sniper hac and a hic. Either way you cut it, CCP basically knifed a bunch of our ships in the chest. It's most certainly not a boost to minmatar, any way you look at it. Min BSes don't suck, granted they are not as shiny as everyone else, but that is because they lost their niche. The Recons are not getting nerfed, they will still be able to ruin a pilot's day by bringing them to a relative standstill. Remember, the Minnie Recons primary targets will be much slower to begin with after this. As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:57:00 - [49] I think you need to work on your understanding of the words buff and nerf. When our ships, that rely on speed for tanks, all get slowed down, that's a nerf. Not a buff. When our recons primary module is a webber, and a webber gets reduced from a 90% slow to a 60% slow, that's a nerf. Not a buff. The fact that some ships that get webbed will already be going slower is not really relevant, because friendly ships that are trying to catch the slowed ship will also be slower, and even if you deal in absolute speeds, I'd bet money they'll be going faster after the nano nerf than they are now with dual 90% webs. The percentage they are slowed will be significantly less with the nerfed webbers, and so the recon is nerfed. Matar will still have some decent ships after this patch, and the Vaga will still be decent I imagine. Regardless, while I normally I try to be more polite than this, I gotta say Anoobis that you're seriously just talking out your ass at this point. This is not a buff. You should quit while you're ahead.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 21:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Anubis Xian Min BSes don't suck Prove me otherwise. Go on, I want to hear it. Quote: The Recons are not getting nerfed So a web nerf and a speed nerf isn't a nerf? They will even be less useful with all the other speed cuts. Quote: As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts. Bold statement for someone who hasn't seen the numbers yet. Nobody has. I'm quite positive it will just scale down.. in which case, no, they won't be "significantly" faster. Let me make a stupid example to get the "scale" point across. Given that all speed formulas rely on percentages.. which they should. CCP decides they want turret wars instead of spaceship wars. All speeds are cut by 99%. Tracking remains how it is. Minmatar turret goes 13m/s. Gallente turret goes 10m/s. Gallente turret tracks twice as good as the minmatar turret. Result? Who would ever want to fly a minmatar turret. and then turn it around, the other way. CCP wants speed wars. Minmatar battleships go 7km/s. Gallente battleships go 5km/s. Result? Who would ever want to fly a gallente battleship? Minmatar battleships control distance.

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Boz Well I think you need to work on your understanding of the words buff and nerf. When our ships, that rely on speed for tanks, all get slowed down, that's a nerf. Not a buff. When our recons primary module is a webber, and a webber gets reduced from a 90% slow to a 60% slow, that's a nerf. Not a buff. The fact that some ships that get webbed will already be going slower is not really relevant, because friendly ships that are trying to catch the slowed ship will also be slower, and even if you deal in absolute speeds, I'd bet money they'll be going faster after the nano nerf than they are now with dual 90% webs. The percentage they are slowed will be significantly less with the nerfed webbers, and so the recon is nerfed. Matar will still have some decent ships after this patch, and the Vaga will still be decent I imagine. Regardless, while I normally I try to be more polite than this, I gotta say Anoobis that you're seriously just talking out your ass at this point. This is not a buff. You should quit while you're ahead. There are less ships competing in the speed arena against the matari...how is it not a buff? They play the Minnie's own game better than the Minnie's do. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:17:00 - [52] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian Min BSes don't suck Prove me otherwise. Go on, I want to hear it. 1237 potential DPS and 80k EHP sound good? Quote: Quote: The Recons are not getting nerfed So a web nerf and a speed nerf isn't a nerf? They will even be less useful with all the other speed cuts. What is 40% of 5 km/s? That's right 2km/s. 40% of that? You got it, 800 m/s. How many ships do you spose will even reach 5 km/s? Quote: Quote: As for the already fast Minnie ships...they will still be significantly faster than their counterparts. Bold statement for someone who hasn't seen the numbers yet. Nobody has. I'm quite positive it will just scale down.. in which case, no, they won't be "significantly" faster. Fast enough to win an engagement a slower ship would lose might just be significant. Quote: Let me make a stupid example to get the "scale" point across. Given that all speed formulas rely on percentages.. which they should. CCP decides they want turret wars instead of spaceship wars. All speeds are cut by 99%. Tracking remains how it is. Minmatar turret goes 13m/s. Gallente turret goes 10m/s. Gallente turret tracks twice as good as the minmatar turret. Result? Who would ever want to fly a minmatar turret. and then turn it around, the other way. CCP wants speed wars. Minmatar battleships go 7km/s. Gallente battleships go 5km/s. Result? Who would ever want to fly a gallente battleship? Minmatar battleships control distance. Minmatar Battleships have always controlled distance. And they still will. Yet Gallente will still be more popular, because of the drones. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:27:00 - [53] Originally by: Anubis Xian 1237 potential DPS and 80k EHP sound good? No. Because 1. It's fake DPS. 2. It's at 3km. 3. Failure of an EHP. 4. A blasterthron would eat that ship for breakfast twice over. An amarr ship could do 80 DPS less for 50% more EHP at a much farther range. Quote: What is 40% of 5 km/s? That's right 2km/s. 40% of that? You got it, 800 m/s. How many ships do you spose will even reach 5 km/s? Stupidity. Webs are getting nerfed. Minnie recon speed is getting nerfed. It's a NERF. No matter how good you think it is after, it's still a NERF. Quote: Fast enough to win an engagement a slower ship would lose might just be significant. So you get to draw an invisible line that says this ship is an acceptable nano and this one isn't? Seriously now. Quote: Minmatar Battleships have always controlled distance. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 2 years ago. That's when they kited megas. Not now. Certainly not after this nano nerf. Want some reasons why? Their base speed isnt very high. Their MWD speed isnt much higher than others. OVERHEATING. But. Let's pretend they can. A tempest with 800mm AC IIs, barrage, 3 damage mods, full set of gallente drones and falloff rigs, is outdamaged by the mega until 24km. 24km. Funny, that's scram range. That's not even considering the tanks, which the mega wins by a long shot. It's also outdamaged (outtanked too) by armageddon at every range. I'm sure you'll go on about capless weapons, damage selection, and neuts. Take a look at the 32 page thread about this if you truly want to go down that path, that argument has been defeated at least 10 times. Quote: And they still will. Yet Gallente will still be more popular, because of the drones. Yeah, it's the drones that make gallente popular. Not their higher damage, their bigger tank, or their ability to actually be worth a shit in a fleet fight.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:34:00 - [54] The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Anubis Xian The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc Your point being?
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:32:00 - [56] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc Your point being? You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc Your point being? You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one. I don't think so either. It's pretty sad that his way to undermine my argument is piddling over definitions that were never concretely defined. Whatever though. PS. Have you seen that vaga setup by the dev in the omgiant thread? Full snakes, 2 t2 aux thrusters, 2 ODs. 4km/s.
Maeltstome Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:35:00 - [58] im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise: HP Buffers Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots. Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison.. But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands. Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.25 23:48:00 - [59] I honestly don't mind these changes so much, except that it seems like a lot of stuff at once. This isn't one nano change, and then a pause to see how it affects the game. It's a series of changes, some fairly radical. Also what bothers me is they gathered speeds on nano ships using t2 gear (ok, good, logical, makes sense) and a FULL HIGH-GRADE SNAKE SET (lulz). Now, certainly some pilots have such a set, but I think the vast majority of people don't spend that much on implants for their nano ships. Oh well. I'd rather they try a few changes at a time, and use a decent benchmark when balancing these changes. If they're going to assume a full HG snake set, they might as well assume faction gear, since what's a few faction OD's compared to the price of those implants? That said, HOPEFULLY at this point, there's a Matar buff patch coming up in the somewhat-near future, considering our only strong point just got smacked with the nerf bat, haha.
verde bandit Amarr Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Zukira Al'Kalish Seems to me that the Gallente are about to gain the upper hand in terms of highly effective Force Recon Ships... There would still be counters, like Amarr ships. Those recons would get melted pretty fast if left alone.

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.26 05:59:00 - [61] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Anubis Xian The Vagabond isn't a nanoship...it's just a fast ship. Nanoships are ships that aren't intended to go ultra fast, yet do it better than the Vaga...etc Your point being? You're asking too much here Astro. I don't think he has one. I don't think so either. It's pretty sad that his way to undermine my argument is piddling over definitions that were never concretely defined. Whatever though. PS. Have you seen that vaga setup by the dev in the omgiant thread? Full snakes, 2 t2 aux thrusters, 2 ODs. 4km/s. My point is that the Minnie ships that are supposed to be fast don't have to compete with ships that do it better even if technically slower. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.26 08:09:00 - [62] First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now. Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder.
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.07.26 10:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Derek Sigres First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now. Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder. what blaster ships fit 2 webs Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.26 10:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Lt Angus Originally by: Derek Sigres First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now. Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder. what blaster ships fit 2 webs Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.07.26 10:50:00 - [65] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Lt Angus Originally by: Derek Sigres First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now. Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder. what blaster ships fit 2 webs Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont. just wondering where the spare slot from droping a second web comes from Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Yo Mommy Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.26 11:00:00 - [66] If someone after patch want to kill my megas MWD they are going to either be inside my web-range, or they are going to need faction scrambler or arazu/lachesis. I don't see much problems with this. Only thing I'm going to do is starting to use faction webs, sure they are expensive but I will always know that if someone wants to take away my speed they ain't going to be able to without me webbing + blasting them to pieces unless they have minnie/gallente recon. Adapt or die. We've all heard it countless times in eve. I am going to experiment with tracking computers, maybe other ammo and perhaps faction webbers and stuff on the mega. Don't really see that the patch will be a problem, it will only be a new and exciting challenge
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.26 12:40:00 - [67] I dont anticipate my Damnation setup changing much. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.26 21:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Lt Angus Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Lt Angus Originally by: Derek Sigres First of all, given the short range of the warp scrambler I don't think the issue is really all that great. Secondly, given that many blaster boats use disruptor + 2 webs why not just replace a web with a scrambler and resolve the issue entirely - if they can't MWD and you can't MWD AND you have them webbed it amounts ot the same basic thing we have now. Besides - just because a scram turns off MWD doesn't mean you'll see it on every ship out there. Hell the Web is the best thing you can do to a nano if you can actually snag them in that tiny range - scramberls just make it harder. what blaster ships fit 2 webs Why would they need to, you either catch em...or you dont. just wondering where the spare slot from droping a second web comes from I've flown against both hyperions and megathrons who through it necessary to carry a double web. Rokhs probably won't do such a thing because the need to keep as many mids as possible for a tank. My point however is I think everyone is going to have a heart attack here before the changes even happen. Look at all the threads of "fear for the inty" or "HACS USELESS!". I'm obviously paraphrasing but for the love of god people - wait unitl moday and jump on sisi and SEE how it goes before you start making assertions like "blaseters useless". Will you be forced to change the way you fight? Probably a bit - everyone will be wrestling with these changes.
William Darkk Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.07.26 22:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Maeltstome im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise: HP Buffers Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots. Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison.. But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands. Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched. Whoa, a role for assault frigates? No way! ------------------------------------------------- Mac Graphics Performance Guide <3 my Drones
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.26 22:47:00 - [70] Originally by: William Darkk Originally by: Maeltstome im wondering what the next whine will be on the way to the cinema tonight - then i realise: HP Buffers Can't wait to see the whines commence how that 1600 plates will replace speed mods in the lowslots. Some of these changes are downright idiotic and seem to be nerfing some mods so that other mods dont seem quite as bad in comparison.. But i will say one thing; if 100% of these changes go ahead im going to start flyng assault ships, 'cause frigs will start ripping bigger ships. Especially since ceptors can hit 2k with an AB as it stands. Im just getting bored of the forum warriors achieving goals for the benefit of themselfs when real issues (like large projectiles, the pilgrim and active tanking's uselessness on sub-cap's) go untouched. Whoa, a role for assault frigates? No way! This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's?

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.26 22:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Ignatious Mei This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's? Ganking solo cruiser/etc sized turret ships. I thought it was obvious. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.26 23:05:00 - [72] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ignatious Mei This isn't meant to be sarcastic in anyway but could you explain how this creates a role for AF's? Ganking solo cruiser/etc sized turret ships. I thought it was obvious. I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.26 23:12:00 - [73] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48 Originally by: Ignatious Mei I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf. Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.26 23:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48 Originally by: Ignatious Mei I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf. Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)? This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:13:00 - [75] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48 Originally by: Ignatious Mei I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf. Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)? This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about. AF's are getting their speed boosted (check the second graph in the devblog). They tend to die because they are so slow (and have to fit MWDs) and get webbed down to 10% of their base speed. Now it will be feasible to fit ABs to them, which are easier to fit and keep running, and they will get webbed only to 40% of their speed, and - unlike MWDing ships in the near future - will get to keep their AB on in the event that the opposing ship is fit with a scram. Additionally, AF's may now also be inclined to fit a scrambler (easier to fit and keep online, capacitor-wise, than a disruptor), which prevents the larger (and formerly faster with a MWD) ship from simply MWDing out of range and pwning it. What this adds up to is that AFs will be reasonably fast enough to actually catch things, won't get instantly pwnd by webs, and will actually be able to keep things in one place. Sure, they'll still get hit, but they're frigate-sized and have good tanks, so they should be able to shrug off a good portion of the damage. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Mag's MASS	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Mag''s on 27/07/2008 00:29:54 Originally by: Derek Sigres I've flown against both hyperions and megathrons who through it necessary to carry a double web. Hyps maybe (don't like them as blaster boats btw), but megas???????? so tell me, how do you keep your cap alive without that cap booster? Edit: removed some quotes. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.27 00:27:00 - [77] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/07/2008 23:11:48 Originally by: Ignatious Mei I don't understand why a AF's is going to be any better at this post nerf than pre nerf. Well, do you know how to kill a AF in a turret cruiser very easily (trivial really!)? This is pointless. I'll wait for the big surprise since you obviously don't want to explain what you are talking about. AF's are getting their speed boosted (check the second graph in the devblog). They tend to die because they are so slow (and have to fit MWDs) and get webbed down to 10% of their base speed. Now it will be feasible to fit ABs to them, which are easier to fit and keep running, and they will get webbed only to 40% of their speed, and - unlike MWDing ships in the near future - will get to keep their AB on in the event that the opposing ship is fit with a scram. Additionally, AF's may now also be inclined to fit a scrambler (easier to fit and keep online, capacitor-wise, than a disruptor), which prevents the larger (and formerly faster with a MWD) ship from simply MWDing out of range and pwning it. What this adds up to is that AFs will be reasonably fast enough to actually catch things, won't get instantly pwnd by webs, and will actually be able to keep things in one place. Sure, they'll still get hit, but they're frigate-sized and have good tanks, so they should be able to shrug off a good portion of the damage. Thank you.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:19:00 - [78] k i did my best to read this thread without laughing at anoobis, so pardon me for skipping his posts mostly. However, i wanted to address my concern to blaster boats, and here is what i'm afraid of, so please reassure me, or correct me if i'm wrong... But at this point, Tracking disruptors got changed to affect fall off and optimal which makes them highly effective against blaster boats already (with a minor exception to large blasters because they have a mildly acceptable range) because it brings their optimal to 0.3km or so, with a fall off of maybe 3km or so. Now if you do manage to get into that now small fall off, you may still hit your mark. However, if said blaster boats web only slows down its victim by 60% then it can much more easily glide out of blaster boats shooting range. Now, does that mean i should just try and use an AB on my thorax/deimos, or for the already slow bs's, like mega/hype. Because if the MWD gets shut off we'll probably get out ran, but if we run an AB we may not get into range. What are your thoughts? am i justified in this fear, does someone share this same theory? or am i paniccing over nothing. Also, while this could suck for blaster boats, it did get me semi excited that it could help get the arazu/lachesis back into the higher level of effective recons again, as well as help a LITTLE bit with AF's.
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:42:00 - [79] Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 01:43:10 Originally by: Mr Ignitious k i did my best to read this thread without laughing at anoobis, so pardon me for skipping his posts mostly. However, i wanted to address my concern to blaster boats, and here is what i'm afraid of, so please reassure me, or correct me if i'm wrong... But at this point, Tracking disruptors got changed to affect fall off and optimal which makes them highly effective against blaster boats already (with a minor exception to large blasters because they have a mildly acceptable range) because it brings their optimal to 0.3km or so, with a fall off of maybe 3km or so. Now if you do manage to get into that now small fall off, you may still hit your mark. However, if said blaster boats web only slows down its victim by 60% then it can much more easily glide out of blaster boats shooting range. Now, does that mean i should just try and use an AB on my thorax/deimos, or for the already slow bs's, like mega/hype. Because if the MWD gets shut off we'll probably get out ran, but if we run an AB we may not get into range. What are your thoughts? am i justified in this fear, does someone share this same theory? or am i paniccing over nothing. Also, while this could suck for blaster boats, it did get me semi excited that it could help get the arazu/lachesis back into the higher level of effective recons again, as well as help a LITTLE bit with AF's. So far I tend to agree with the folks who suggest that by the time someone's scram (assuming it's not a recon) shuts off your MWD, intertia will carry you into blaster range anyway. At that point you can web and/or scram your target. Now, you may have a frustrating time taking on an interceptor 1v1 in your Thorax, but since when was that not ultimately frustrating? In a gang or fleet fight, or taking on another cruiser 1v1, I think the Thorax in particular will still be a face-melter. Also, AFs are gonna be back with a vengeance, and hopefully Gallente recons too... EDIT: Also remember that if your MWD gets shut off at 9km, or better yet 7.5km, your web can really help you out if you activate it as soon as you're in range (at least 10km)...
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:48:00 - [80] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 27/07/2008 01:48:22 arcon: i guess what i was trying to say is that its not so much getting into range thats creeping me out, its keeping the target in range of my already silly-short range guns because of the web nerf, and in conjunction with mwd deactivation, seems that more frightening. However, i'm thinking that most ppl will still fit 24km "disruptors" cuz thats a huge range advantage atleast. edit: however, i don't disagree with you, i am probably (hopefully) just paniccing.

Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:52:00 - [81] Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 01:52:30 Originally by: Mr Ignitious arcon: i guess what i was trying to say is that its not so much getting into range thats creeping me out, its keeping the target in range of my already silly-short range guns because of the web nerf, and in conjunction with mwd deactivation, seems that more frightening. However, i'm thinking that most ppl will still fit 24km "disruptors" cuz thats a huge range advantage atleast. Right. It's important to remember that not everyone is going to switch to an ABII, and not everyone is going to switch to using short-range scramblers to kill your MWD. Surely there will be some changes in combat, some ships that all of the sudden might outrun the Thorax - but remember that it will have as much to do with a pilot's fitting choice and trained skills as with these "nerfs." Imagine fitting your Thorax with a web and a tech 2 scram, effectively killing someone's MWD and slowing them way down. Now, if your MWD is still up and running - you win. If you're fitting an ABII - you win. If your MWD has been deactivated due to a hostile short range scram, then you're either fighting a ship that's too fast for you or you aren't. I don't think that the 90% webs were ever meant to be a win button, just as the nano technology was never meant to be one either...
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 01:58:00 - [82] hmm maybe this whole nerf thing WILL add flavor to pvp (i will still miss my nano tar though ) and if its any consolation to you mimtars i'll cry for you too.
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:02:00 - [83] Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19 I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Also Gallente recons, etc.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:05:00 - [84] Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19 I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Also Gallente recons, etc. Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar.
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19 I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Also Gallente recons, etc. Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. It's definitely a lot to take in all at once. And from what I understand, there's no way 100% of the changes mentioned in the dev blog will be implemented (at least not exactly as described) by the time testing concludes...so everybody sit tight and have Snickers. Or Twix if you prefer. It's the only candy bar with the cookie crunch.
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:14:00 - [86] i'm thinking of cross training amarr instead of minmitar now tbh p.s. I like this thread
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:37:00 - [87] The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range?
Arcon Telf Gallente Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:53:00 - [88] Originally by: Ignatious Mei The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range? I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills...
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Arcon Telf Originally by: Ignatious Mei The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range? I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills... not to mention gang bonuses will help if you can get someone to do it.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.07.27 02:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Arcon Telf Originally by: Ignatious Mei The one thing about all this I got excited about was that gal recons would get a bit better, but then I got to thinking. The AVERAGE pilot isn't going to be fitting a t2 scram. So with over heating a arazu/lach the average range most pilots will be getting is between 18 and 20k. With damps in their current state, can a pilot with decent skills damp a BS below 20k lock range? I would say that any pilot worth their salt flying an Arazu should damn well better be willing and able to fit a T2 scram. For 80 million ISK a pop, you better train those support skills... Sorry, meant to say faction scram, not t2.

AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 03:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Mr Ignitious hmm maybe this whole nerf thing WILL add flavor to pvp (i will still miss my nano tar though ) and if its any consolation to you mimtars i'll cry for you too. Thanks bud. <3 We'll take all we can get. While the forum will flood with blasterboat pilots whining their little hearts out about a small nerf to webs, us minnies watch our last decent ships float away.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.27 03:46:00 - [92] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/07/2008 03:47:32 Originally by: Boz Well Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. These two changes are the most convincing ones in the list imho. While faster AFs could be used better to tackle fast cruisers, the arazu and lachesis would be the final word to end any speed advantage on the field (might be slightly overpowered even, but meh, it was crappy for a long time). Edit: as some people suggested, might be good to have a script for the 2-point scram, since killing off mwd AND keeping 2 points with one module would be a bit overkill.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.27 09:07:00 - [93] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 27/07/2008 03:47:32 Originally by: Boz Well Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. These two changes are the most convincing ones in the list imho. While faster AFs could be used better to tackle fast cruisers, the arazu and lachesis would be the final word to end any speed advantage on the field (might be slightly overpowered even, but meh, it was crappy for a long time). Edit: as some people suggested, might be good to have a script for the 2-point scram, since killing off mwd AND keeping 2 points with one module would be a bit overkill. I only see the scram as an issue on the bonused ships. Putting a script on them means people will be a LOT less likely to see the scram as a useful module given its woeful range on non bonused ships.
kessah State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 09:17:00 - [94] You can hit out to 20km with Null on a mega. Hail is virtually unusable for Matari battleships because of the penalties, so you will have to have null preloaded instead of CN AM. Barrage / RF EMP are preloaded on matari battleships and null is still pretty powerful.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.27 09:19:00 - [95] Originally by: kessah You can hit out to 20km with Null on a mega. Hail is virtually unusable for Matari battleships because of the penalties, so you will have to have null preloaded instead of CN AM. Barrage / RF EMP are preloaded on matari battleships and null is still pretty powerful. Sure you can do that with a Mega but it's DPS advantage against a raven flies away pretty quickly. Besides the Raven has the MUCH longer range of the two using high damage weapons.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.27 11:13:00 - [96] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat The Megathron is affected the least out of all blaster boats actually. Deimos is much worse, and the blaster ranis will be simply unflyable. With the Mega, at least you can fit a scram and web with your mwd, stop your target's speed completely, and slide into void range. With smaller ships, the regular point/web setup gets turned into almost a dual web + point setup, which means you die really fast. Do people such as yourself even LOOK at what you're typing before you post? Stop a target's speed completely? With what? A 50% web? Slide into what range? Void range? Nobody who know's WTF they're doing ever uses Void. And there will be no 'sliding into range'. Max skilled BS sized Ion II blaster optimal range: 3750m. Range of 2 point scram: 9km, 13km if overheated, even more if a faction scram. That's THREE TIMES the difference in range. And this is assuming you can hold them still with a crap 50% web. A Blasterthron will never be able to get within range of a Tempest ever again. A torp/neut Typhoon will be able to keep it's transverse up so high that it'll shed at least 50% of the DPS of a blaster ship, regardless of it's range. The ideas put forth by CCP are a joke. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.27 11:15:00 - [97] Originally by: kessah You can hit out to 20km with Null on a mega. Hail is virtually unusable for Matari battleships because of the penalties, so you will have to have null preloaded instead of CN AM. Barrage / RF EMP are preloaded on matari battleships and null is still pretty powerful. Kessah? Null? Really? Null is useless in blaster ships for killing anything other than Cruisers, and even then it's horrible due to tracking issues. If a Blasterthron goes toe to toe with a Torp Raven while using Null, it's going to get shredded. The damage difference is just astronomical when compared to faction antimatter. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.07.27 11:30:00 - [98] i dont see how anyone is thinking the change will be a bad thing for the TRUE blasterboats. how many people here nano a demios for example? the answer SHOULD BE next to none, because the ship is awful nano's. with speeds going down accross the board this will be a good change for blasterboats, the main issue being of course that nano fibers will now stack nerf with overdrives and also agility mods. none of witch you fit to your current true blasterboat. so in short everyone else will slow down a lot, you will slow down a little, and in the case of the rax and demois both are designed to run a MWD, if someone scrams me, they are almost in range anyhow. /Theo. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.07.27 11:45:00 - [99] with regards to the webthing, i dont see this being much different. perviously this is how it would go down, 2 ships MWD'ing in this case we will use my Mega, and its Prey a raven that as is mandatory thesedays fits a MWD. today here is what happens; mega gets in range somehow, the max mwd speed of the mega is 1200m/s mwd;in and the raven 1100 mwd;in. you hit the raven for a 90% web/and a scram. this cuts the ravens speed to around 110 mps. you shoot. someone goes pop. note the ravens mwd remains on as long as it possibly can as he is hoping to get out of webrange. with the change, same deal, but you hit the for a scram, and the web, scram cutts the 1100mps to around 140 mps, then a 50% web hits it for half of that, and your around 70mps. in effect your better off than you where before. the only thing that makes this interesting is if the raven fits a afterburner instead of a mwd. raven would be cut from 279mps, to 140 meaning your only a little worse off that you had been previously.. do i fail at math or is that just how its going to go down? in otherwords, nothing to see here, change fix'es the nano problem and does not hurt blasterboats. (PS, i fly to lvl 5 gal hacs and gal BS), so hopefully i wont be gutted when the change comes thru. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:12:00 - [100] Originally by: NeoTheo i dont see how anyone is thinking the change will be a bad thing for the TRUE blasterboats. how many people here nano a demios for example? the answer SHOULD BE next to none, because the ship is awful nano's. with speeds going down accross the board this will be a good change for blasterboats, the main issue being of course that nano fibers will now stack nerf with overdrives and also agility mods. none of witch you fit to your current true blasterboat. so in short everyone else will slow down a lot, you will slow down a little, and in the case of the rax and demois both are designed to run a MWD, if someone scrams me, they are almost in range anyhow. /Theo. hey good cross post!!... And to ur post below this one, its not the battleships i'm to overly worried about, its when you are fighting cruisers. Even two cruisers could fit for a longer range and kite the mega by sitting at 8-9km with AB's on keeping up a transversal (with lower sig radius's than normal) that would make that megathrons day absolutely horrid. All of this stuff is clever by ccp, but not quite thought well enough. If they give an AB bonus to mega/hype/brutix/maybe myrm/astarte/thorax/deimos then it could be ok maybe, but as it stands it will make it a pain in the ass for us. Oh, and quick sidenote: i hope i'm not bursting anyones bubble but tracking disruptors are becoming my new fav "i have an extra midslot so i'll slap one of these on!" like RSD's and ecm once were. Why? because with them affecting fall off and optimal, the 3750 that bellum addressed quickly becomes 1375 or so, as well as a toasted fall off, meaning you are literally physically molesting your target to hit them. If that target is moving, its not gonna take much to be a pain to hit, not to mention our lovely 0m from target trick .

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:28:00 - [101] Originally by: Mr Ignitious And to ur post below this one, its not the battleships i'm to overly worried about, its when you are fighting cruisers. Even two cruisers could fit for a longer range and kite the mega by sitting at 8-9km with AB's on keeping up a transversal (with lower sig radius's than normal) that would make that megathrons day absolutely horrid. Tbh: two cruisers should smoke the idiot in a Mega flying a BS unsupported against multiple small ships. Also, two Arbitrators will do this perfectly fine now. double-web mega, put 3-4x tracking disruptors, and it's not hitting in the far reaches of webrange now, they can sit stationary if they like. After they dispose of the drones, the Mega is dead if he doesn't have a neut. Thank the TD buff for that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:29:00 - [102] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/07/2008 19:31:14 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/07/2008 19:30:25 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/07/2008 19:29:43 Originally by: Bellum Eternus A Blasterthron will never be able to get within range of a Tempest ever again. It doesn't need to? Mega with Null > Tempest with Barrage (and Mega with CN AM > Tempest with Hail or RF EMP L which sucks in comparison with CN AM anyway). At range, all the way up to the border of disruptor range. If it's out of disruptor range, who cares? Also, Megas deal with cruisers better then Minmatar guns, since it has a 25% tracking bonus (and neutrons outtrack 800s anyway). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:34:00 - [103] I don't think there should ever be a discussion of tempest vs mega ever again. It's stupid. The mega always wins anyway. Kiting megas was 2 years ago. Along with multispec ECM, 2 heavy nos, and a dual lar tank.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.07.27 19:47:00 - [104] Originally by: Ignatious Mei I'll admit it. I was "kind of" a nano pilot. I had a nano'd Ishtar but I still spent the majority of my time in a Domi. 2nd most flown ship was the megathron and the brutix. I am really pretty worried about this new MWD nerf. With warp disruptor now shutting down MWD's how are blaster boats going to get/stay in range? I just don't think a after burner is going to cut it when you have to be inside of 5k do deal decent damage. T2 webs are dropping to 60% effectiveness. So a gankathron would be able to go 213 m/s while webbed and scram'd with an afterburner. That's better than the current situation where a web drops you to 100 m/s with a MWD on. The harder part is closing the gap with an afterburner instead of a MWD before they're in range. If you fit a MWD though, you're going to get slowed to 80 m/s after getting webbed and scram'd, which is only 20 m/s more than you'd be getting slowed with it as current - so its not the end of the world. In general, blaster boats have always been vulnerable to webs of a faster ship since a ship that can do 5000 m/s still goes 5x as fast as you while you're both webbed.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 20:43:00 - [105] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Arcon Telf Edited by: Arcon Telf on 27/07/2008 02:02:19 I agree. Let's just wait and see what happens. I love the face-melting simplicity of a blasterax or blaster-Myrm, but these changes could really spice things up. The Enyo and Ishkur could be flyable again....joy! Also Gallente recons, etc. Buffing AF's and buffing Gallente recon are good things. One of the nano changes, maybe two, would have been ok. As is though, bleh. Too much crap all at once. I think the proposed (?) changes tend to make life a little tougher on blaster boats, but hell, it could be worse. You could be Minmatar. now I agree with this. too many changes at one time. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.27 21:02:00 - [106] Edited by: Boz Well on 27/07/2008 21:02:14 Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. Ama was telling me she had a beastiality discussion on the forum the other day... wonder if it was this guy. Let's keep it on topic in here folks, S&M only! /usefulpost
kessah State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 21:13:00 - [107] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: kessah You can hit out to 20km with Null on a mega. Hail is virtually unusable for Matari battleships because of the penalties, so you will have to have null preloaded instead of CN AM. Barrage / RF EMP are preloaded on matari battleships and null is still pretty powerful. Kessah? Null? Really? Null is useless in blaster ships for killing anything other than Cruisers, and even then it's horrible due to tracking issues. If a Blasterthron goes toe to toe with a Torp Raven while using Null, it's going to get shredded. The damage difference is just astronomical when compared to faction antimatter. Man its a compromise, the mega is bloody heavy ive seen them skim into range, but seriously neutron plate mega with null, tempest at its current state?? seriously Nulls way better off.
Taya Tal	Posted - 2008.07.27 23:29:00 - [108] Originally by: Anubis Xian I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying the sky is not falling. But the sky IS falling! Can't you see?
lootcollection Balls Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.27 23:43:00 - [109] Edited by: lootcollection on 27/07/2008 23:43:52 The web change will make void on a mega awful hitting wise since things will still be going 50% of their speed and the tracking already sucks.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.28 00:19:00 - [110] Originally by: Jordan Musgrat The Megathron is affected the least out of all blaster boats actually. Deimos is much worse, and the blaster ranis will be simply unflyable. With the Mega, at least you can fit a scram and web with your mwd, stop your target's speed completely, and slide into void range. With smaller ships, the regular point/web setup gets turned into almost a dual web + point setup, which means you die really fast. Blaster ranis unfliable? Oh please, don't be overly dramatic. The targets a blaster ranis goes after probably aren't going to be packing a scrambler and you're not going to fly into the middle of a big hairball in it either. It's a fit that's made to kill frig and destroyer hulls... maybe poorly fit cruisers, but you'd have to be stupid to take on something like one of the 2 mid AFs that's likely to have a scrambler fit after this change. The ranis might be tough but taking on an AF in one wouldn't generally be a smart move today or tomorrow.



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