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yrknat
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Posted - 2008.07.29 23:56:00 -
[1]
It has a RoF bonus. It just looks like 2.
A RoF bonus to the first 4 slots, then a RoF bonus to the last 4 slots = 1 bonus. Give it a second ship bonus please.
Also give it more armour hp than shield hp, its clearly an armour tanking ship.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:04:00 -
[2]
Also, make it more agile than a freakin' Hyperion.
FFS.
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DeadRow
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:04:00 -
[3]
A bonus for two of its weapons systems = 2 bonus'
The phoon is a good ship- just takes time train properly for 
 Quote:
Iz in ur base, implanting ur dudes
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DeadRow
A bonus for two of its weapons systems = 2 bonus'
The phoon is a good ship- just takes time train properly for
No other ship has this "wonderful" pair of bonuses.
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
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yrknat
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: DeadRow
A bonus for two of its weapons systems = 2 bonus'
The phoon is a good ship- just takes time train properly for
You know what we should do, we should remove that capacitor bonus from the geddon, then give it a RoF bonus to half its guns. To compensate we'll then give it a RoF bonus to its other guns.
Now there you have another ship with 2 ship bonus', you'd have no problems with this right?
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:11:00 -
[6]
Phoon is at best a utility ship. Nobody will be fitting 4 torps or 4 ACs, and even if they did it would still be one bonus to two weapon systems (a single 5% RoF bonus).
That's like giving only a RoF bonus to the raven for torps and nothing else. Or giving a damage bonus but no tracking to a mega. It sucks in other words.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
Why shouldn't it, it costs about 20 to 30 mil more?
The phoon as it is, RIGHT now, on tranq, with all it's weirnesses and screwed up stats...
it's perfect. It's a work of art. 
DON'T touch my phoon.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: AstroPhobic
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
Why shouldn't it, it costs about 20 to 30 mil more?
The phoon as it is, RIGHT now, on tranq, with all it's weirnesses and screwed up stats...
it's perfect. It's a work of art.
DON'T touch my phoon.
It's about to get bum****d. Innncoming!
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:14:00 -
[9]
Oh noes!
That added mass is a joke, a bad one at that. Moves the phoon from to 
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: yrknat
It has a RoF bonus. It just looks like 2.
A RoF bonus to the first 4 slots, then a RoF bonus to the last 4 slots = 1 bonus. Give it a second ship bonus please.
Also give it more armour hp than shield hp, its clearly an armour tanking ship.
I used to wonder about this also... but then I realized that, one day, that fateful day would come when mummy and papa would sit me down and explain all of that naughtiness not meant for a little girl's ears 
And then I got a Raven and everything was good.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:34:00 -
[11]
and the tempest only has 1 bonus, rof and damage bonuses, just to compensate for the gimped acs!!!!
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:35:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
and the tempest only has 1 bonus, rof and damage bonuses, just to compensate for the gimped acs!!!!
This is true. Merge those bonuses and give it a 50% sexiness factor per level, and a role bonus of badass masts.
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:35:00 -
[13]
And the mael's shield bonus is completely unnecessary in fleet battles. Wow we're screwed.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:36:00 -
[14]
The phoon should have +1 turret and launcher slots. And the RoF bonus should be 6%.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: P''uck on 30/07/2008 00:38:12
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The phoon should have +1 turret and launcher slots. And the RoF bonus should be 6%.
I'd buy that, but honestly... is there any reason to fly anything else then ? 
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
And the mael's shield bonus is completely unnecessary in fleet battles. Wow we're screwed.
Switch it to 5% caldari structure per level. Or maybe give it two 2.5% bonuses to ROF.
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Kuzya Morozov
Gallente
L8L8L8
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: AstroPhobic
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
Why shouldn't it, it costs about 20 to 30 mil more?
The phoon as it is, RIGHT now, on tranq, with all it's weirnesses and screwed up stats...
it's perfect. It's a work of art.
DON'T touch my phoon.
It costs that way because no one in this game flies a freakin phoon, while 90% of EVE flies ravens.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The phoon should have +1 turret and launcher slots. And the RoF bonus should be 6%.
Nobody would ever, ever use more than 3 turrets then. I say make it 6 launchers, 2 guns, and give a drone bonus.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: P''uck on 30/07/2008 00:51:08
Originally by: Kuzya Morozov
It costs that way because no one in this game flies a freakin phoon, while 90% of EVE flies ravens.
Compare the mineral cost.
edit: also wtf astro? 6 launchers with rof bonus AND a drone bonus for a ship with 175m3 dronebay and bandwidth for a full flight of heavies?
Doesn't that sound a tad overpowered?
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dichroic
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:51:00 -
[20]
They should drop both the rof bonus' on the phoon and give it tractor beam and salvage bonus' because lets face it, then it would be more usfull.
The temp needs a 7th turret slot
The mael and var are like the same ship with differnt skins (lol @ u if you bought the 650m one)
The vaga is soon to be usless
The raiper is soon to be usless
The huggin is soon to be usless
The hyeena is soon too be usless
The muninn has allways been usless
Saber is prolly the best dictor tho, you should probably nerf it
TL;DR lol minmatar
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.07.30 00:57:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Spaztick on 30/07/2008 00:58:43
Edited by: Spaztick on 30/07/2008 00:57:45
We still have Rifters though.
And Cheetahs.
And I'm not gonna mention the Sleipnir because they might nerf it, so shhh.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Spaztick
Edited by: Spaztick on 30/07/2008 00:58:43
Edited by: Spaztick on 30/07/2008 00:57:45
We still have Rifters though.
And Cheetahs.
And I'm not gonna mention the Sleipnir because they might nerf it, so shhh.
Bye bye nanosleipnir, you were actually useful.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:25:00 -
[23]
The Typhoon now aligns as a ton of bricks, a real shame.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: AstroPhobic
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
Why shouldn't it, it costs about 20 to 30 mil more?
The phoon as it is, RIGHT now, on tranq, with all it's weirnesses and screwed up stats...
it's perfect. It's a work of art.
DON'T touch my phoon.
I respectfully disagree. INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.30 01:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
This.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Tanith YarnDemon
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Posted - 2008.07.30 02:56:00 -
[26]
Ohh.... Let me try!
The domi only gets one bonus, and not even that.
It gets one damage bonus to its drone weapon system, and one to its hybrid weapon system == One bonus!
However, it's hybrid weapon bonus is really just half a bonus(10% is the main bonus value, hybrids get 5% per level) = 0.75 bonus total!!
Now, I suggest we give it a repair bonus for it's second bonus and give it a 10% hybrid bonus - as it should be.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 02:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon
Ohh.... Let me try!
The domi only gets one bonus, and not even that.
It gets one damage bonus to its drone weapon system, and one to its hybrid weapon system == One bonus!
Failure. Drone bonus is 10%, and it's clearly the main damage source.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 03:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: dichroic
Edited by: dichroic on 30/07/2008 01:12:55
They should drop both the rof bonus' on the phoon and give it tractor beam and salvage bonus' because lets face it, then it would be more usfull.
The temp needs a 7th turret slot
The mael and var are like the same ship with differnt skins (lol @ u if you bought the 650m one)
The vaga is soon to be usless
The raiper is soon to be usless
The huggin is soon to be usless
The hyeena is soon to be usless
The Claymore is soon to be usless
The muninn has allways been usless
Saber is prolly the best dictor tho, you should probably nerf it
TL;DR lol minmatar
Vega - still the fastest, infact since everything is getting slower, you will actually hit something.
Rapier - Webs are still powerful, its effects may be diminished, but the tactical advantage of webs has not been diminished - especially 40km webs.
Huggin - Look at Rapier
Hyena - Hated it, but its still a great gate camper.
Caymore - Skirmish is even more important now. . .so this is more important to fly.
Munin - its sucked since the scripts were introduced. . .nano did not change this. If anything, since things are slower, it may actually be a little better. . .but not much.
basically, you either 1) don't know how to fly these ships or 2) you simply don't understand the nurf (rebalancing really) or 3) you are just a troll. . .take your pick.
----
GO BLUE!! |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:17:00 -
[29]
I'm a caldari pilot - and other than dabbling in Amarr it's really all I fly. The upcomming nerf does nothing but help me but I can honestly say that it appears the minmitar players are indeed getting boned here.
Let's be brutally honest here - what is it that makes minmatar ships so good right NOW? The simple fact that their inadequacies are overshadowed by their ability to go fast - to utterly dictate the pace and range of a battle while mitigating substantial amounts of damage with speed alone and having the ability to bug out when things go terribly wrong.
Here is a quick look at the racial "traits" of Minmitar ships as a general set of principles:
They are generally the fastest ships out there, but when the difference in speed is measured in a few hundred meters/s versus a few THOUSAND the inherit usefulness of this trait is questionable. Other factors could make this exceedingly useful still but read on.
Reliance on projectile (jet propelled or otehrwise) is often touted as a virtue. Afterall, the lack of cap use of such systems was at one point a boon. But in today's era, where buffer tanks have proven their viability and superiority over active tanks in almost all situations one is left to wonder what exactly does your capless weapon really mean? A buffer tanked abaddon dumps GOBS of cap firing it's guns - and indeed the closest thing to a ammunition Amarr ships worry about is cap booster charges - but in an age where that abaddon is likely to not even have a repper fitted at ALL, the simple fact that you can dump your cap on guns alone in a few minutes is of little consequence when the battle will be over by then one way or another (fleet battles excluded of course) long before you cap out. Missiles are hamstrung by the simple fact that the projectiles take ages to reach a target - we've all heard how Burn Eden can make excellent use of this feature but for the most part the high alpha/dps of missiles is seen as being of little conseuqence when a target will likely warp or die before your missiles arrive. Projectiles are constantly being utalized in falloff, meaning by default they are simply not delivering their stated DPS on target - indeed it's usually substantailly lower in reality.
Versatility is a boon only when your options are useful. Before the various nerfs made all those fancy high slot and mid slot treachery items less useful the ability to fit your ship in a variety of ways that all perform badly is not a boon. Today, being able to specialize in a single job is the most important factor a ship can have because multitasking has been proven to be inferior in a general sense.
Split weapon systems - yes it's a part of that versatility but it means you often have to train for two (or 3) different weapon systems to utalize a ship effectively. More importantly it means that your overall ability to generate DPS is going to compromise your tank - afterall the if a weapon mod only affects half your weapons it stands to reason that you need twice as many to achieve the same overall DPS increase as other, single weapon system ships. Worse, the versitility offered here directly harms your ability to operate in a very specific environment. Yes a sniper battleship is up a creek in a close ranged fight but the best minmitar can generally offer is "almost adequate" at any given task.
Projectile weapon damage - while the high alpha strike and variable damage is often cited as a virtue, in reality the fact that you utalize most of these systems in deep falloff means that both your Alhpa and DPS are compromised. The variable damage is quite often little more than a lie you tell yourself. RF EMP, Hail, Barrage and Quake are the ONLY rounds I have ever seen being used in PVP because they are the only ones that fill the damage/range niches other ships excell in.
Speed masked the issue in the smaller ships - without it these flaws go from annoying to downright lethal to any minnie pilot.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
This.
Y'all just fail to grasp it's inner beauty and the deeper, almost mystical harmony of that wonderful ship. Don't worry about a few -as you call it- misplaced hitpoints, it's not gimped, it has character.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:26:00 -
[31]
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
This.
Y'all just fail to grasp it's inner beauty and the deeper, almost mystical harmony of that wonderful ship. Don't worry about a few -as you call it- misplaced hitpoints, it's not gimped, it has character.
I can only assume that character is one of comic relief.
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: P'uck
Edited by: P''uck on 30/07/2008 00:38:12
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The phoon should have +1 turret and launcher slots. And the RoF bonus should be 6%.
I'd buy that, but honestly... is there any reason to fly anything else then ?
Well, shuttles are better for AFK travel... only time you would see me outside of that Typhoon.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L.
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
the raven outdoes the phoon
Isn't the phoon a Tier 1 BS anyways?
_
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yrknat
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: AstroPhobic
the raven outdoes the phoon
Isn't the phoon a Tier 1 BS anyways?
since when has tiers mattered? tier = different not necessarily better.
phoon > mael & pest
domi & mega > hyp
you cant really compare scorp
etc etc etc
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Arana Tellen
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:47:00 -
[35]
Errr Lachesis, dominix, rattlesnake, eris, ishtar, EOS and ishkur all have split weapons system bonuses.
I think the eris takes the lead for 2 gun and 2 missile bonuses.
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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Maeltstome
Minmatar
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.07.30 08:52:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 30/07/2008 08:56:06
Originally by: P'uck
Edited by: P''uck on 30/07/2008 00:38:12
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The phoon should have +1 turret and launcher slots. And the RoF bonus should be 6%.
I'd buy that, but honestly... is there any reason to fly anything else then ?
7.5% projectile ROF, 5% missile launcher rof
Mini Naglfar anyone?
Yea 5/5 weapon split would be nice too. Means we can fit more Torps [;)]
Edit*
Gief all Projectile's ROF bonus 7.5% actually.
-------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5
[12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Arana Tellen
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:25:00 -
[37]
Dream on guys, the phoon has the highest potential damage of any battleship, sure its got to get close but still...
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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yrknat
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Dream on guys, the phoon has the highest potential damage of any battleship, sure its got to get close but still...
And has no tank while doing it. Theoretical, not practical. You never run into such things on Tranq. Out of EFT and onto Tranq for you.
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Xoth Freefall
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:42:00 -
[39]
what is this about a mass increase on the typhoon? is it part of the speed changes?
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Arana Tellen
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.07.30 09:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Xoth Freefall
what is this about a mass increase on the typhoon? is it part of the speed changes?
3.6% and yes.
---------------------------------
Oh noes!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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nakKEDK
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.07.30 10:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Spaztick
Edited by: Spaztick on 30/07/2008 00:17:39
Phoon is at best a utility ship. Nobody will be fitting 4 torps and 4 ACs, and even if they did it would still be one bonus to two weapon systems (a single 5% RoF bonus).
That's like giving only a RoF bonus to the raven for torps and nothing else. Or giving a damage bonus but no tracking to a mega. It sucks in other words.
maybe if you pilot it..
k
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
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Posted - 2008.07.30 23:25:00 -
[42]
Originally by: nakKEDK
maybe if you pilot it..
I'd rather pilot a buffer tanked raven than a buffer tanked phoon any day. Same EHP, more DPS.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. |
Naviset
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 01:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon
Ohh.... Let me try!
The domi only gets one bonus, and not even that.
It gets one damage bonus to its drone weapon system, and one to its hybrid weapon system == One bonus!
However, it's hybrid weapon bonus is really just half a bonus(10% is the main bonus value, hybrids get 5% per level) = 0.75 bonus total!!
Now, I suggest we give it a repair bonus for it's second bonus and give it a 10% hybrid bonus - as it should be.
lolwhut?
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Strill
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 02:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: P'uck
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
This.
Y'all just fail to grasp it's inner beauty and the deeper, almost mystical harmony of that wonderful ship. Don't worry about a few -as you call it- misplaced hitpoints, it's not gimped, it has character.
I can only assume that character is one of comic relief.
Man it's amazing how accurate the Typhoon's in-game fluff description is.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:53:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 31/07/2008 02:54:02
I don't have a problem with the weapon bonuses, but it'd be nice if it had five missile points and five turret points, if only to compensate for the crappy mass change that's coming. I mean, the description talks about being designed for options, but having four of each weapon type on an eight slot ship doesn't give you any options at all really. At least if you had five of each type it'd give you some added damage if you fit five of a certain type and combined it with a damage mod (more than four with a damage mod, that is.)
I mean give us something CCP to compensate for the high mass of the ship.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 07:59:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Originally by: dichroic
Edited by: dichroic on 30/07/2008 01:12:55
They should drop both the rof bonus' on the phoon and give it tractor beam and salvage bonus' because lets face it, then it would be more usfull.
The temp needs a 7th turret slot
The mael and var are like the same ship with differnt skins (lol @ u if you bought the 650m one)
The vaga is soon to be usless
The raiper is soon to be usless
The huggin is soon to be usless
The hyeena is soon to be usless
The Claymore is soon to be usless
The muninn has allways been usless
Saber is prolly the best dictor tho, you should probably nerf it
TL;DR lol minmatar
Vega - still the fastest, infact since everything is getting slower, you will actually hit something.
Rapier - Webs are still powerful, its effects may be diminished, but the tactical advantage of webs has not been diminished - especially 40km webs.
Huggin - Look at Rapier
Hyena - Hated it, but its still a great gate camper.
Caymore - Skirmish is even more important now. . .so this is more important to fly.
Munin - its sucked since the scripts were introduced. . .nano did not change this. If anything, since things are slower, it may actually be a little better. . .but not much.
basically, you either 1) don't know how to fly these ships or 2) you simply don't understand the nurf (rebalancing really) or 3) you are just a troll. . .take your pick.
lololol pwned
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: yrknat
It has a RoF bonus. It just looks like 2.
A RoF bonus to the first 4 slots, then a RoF bonus to the last 4 slots = 1 bonus. Give it a second ship bonus please.
Also give it more armour hp than shield hp, its clearly an armour tanking ship.
See my thread in the Game Development Forum here.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Also, make it more agile than a freakin' Hyperion.
FFS.
Agreed. I'm amazed that anyone could think that minmatar BS should be the least agile.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: yrknat
It has a RoF bonus. It just looks like 2.
A RoF bonus to the first 4 slots, then a RoF bonus to the last 4 slots = 1 bonus. Give it a second ship bonus please.
Also give it more armour hp than shield hp, its clearly an armour tanking ship.
Wait, phoon is a bad ship? You fail at eve.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Wall of Text
Either someone has been reading our minmatar/projectile brainstorming threads or somebody actually understand the predicament... or both. Bring tears to my eyes...
The only reason the phoon is even remotely decent right now is because the split weapon systems and heavy drone bay allow it to forget about it's weapons and use it as a utility ship.
If you fit 4 ac and 4 cruise or torps you are absolutely using this ship wrong (unless going for full gankage and can only fly minmatar, in which case this is probably your only choice.)
This ship's advantage over the domi is powergrid, so ***** it. 3 Neuts plz. 3 Neuts is enough to make a nano pilot get up and walk away from the computer and a battleship pilot contemplate using his insurance payout to put stabs on his next ship. All the while 4 cruise and 5x heavy drones get your dps to over 500. With a cap injector driving your 7 slot dual rep tank you even tank better than the tempest does and put out comparable dps. Pre nerf, the weight of your ship actually allowed you to kite enemy targets decently, because you could use missiles do do your damage from range (lol no f41loff)
So, phoon wins because it has shitty bonuses that make it so that you don't feel bad trying wacky setups that completely ignore bonuses. At any given time, I consider this ship to have 4 ultility high slots.
|
Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:05:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: yrknat
It has a RoF bonus. It just looks like 2.
A RoF bonus to the first 4 slots, then a RoF bonus to the last 4 slots = 1 bonus. Give it a second ship bonus please.
Also give it more armour hp than shield hp, its clearly an armour tanking ship.
Wait, phoon is a bad ship? You fail at eve.
I dont think he mentioned anywhere in that post that the typhoon is bad. He is saying it does not get a unique secnond bonus like every other ship. The typhoon currently does well for having flipped HP stats, and missing out on a SHIP BONUS. Imagine if this ship had appropriate armor values, and an actual second bonus... Reduce its mass to what it was, and give it a second bonus and we have a competitive battleship...
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:07:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 31/07/2008 14:07:42
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Originally by: dichroic
Edited by: dichroic on 30/07/2008 01:12:55
They should drop both the rof bonus' on the phoon and give it tractor beam and salvage bonus' because lets face it, then it would be more usfull.
The temp needs a 7th turret slot
The mael and var are like the same ship with differnt skins (lol @ u if you bought the 650m one)
The vaga is soon to be usless
The raiper is soon to be usless
The huggin is soon to be usless
The hyeena is soon to be usless
The Claymore is soon to be usless
The muninn has allways been usless
Saber is prolly the best dictor tho, you should probably nerf it
TL;DR lol minmatar
Vega - still the fastest, infact since everything is getting slower, you will actually hit something.
Rapier - Webs are still powerful, its effects may be diminished, but the tactical advantage of webs has not been diminished - especially 40km webs.
Huggin - Look at Rapier
Hyena - Hated it, but its still a great gate camper.
Caymore - Skirmish is even more important now. . .so this is more important to fly.
Munin - its sucked since the scripts were introduced. . .nano did not change this. If anything, since things are slower, it may actually be a little better. . .but not much.
basically, you either 1) don't know how to fly these ships or 2) you simply don't understand the nurf (rebalancing really) or 3) you are just a troll. . .take your pick.
lololol pwned
I dunno dude. The rapier got ****d.
If you go 1500 m/s with an ab...
1 web: 750 m/s
2 web: 375 m/s
3 web: 187.5 m/s
4 web: 93.75 m/s
So with two rapier, a decent nanod buffer tanks hip still makes it back to the gate. Unless you have 3 rapiers or a rapier and some people with scrams, and hope they dont use an after burner, a lot of shit is gona get back to the gate before you can kill it.
Unless you are one of these evers that gets your kicks from sitting in a 40 man blob where f1 - f8 are all you have to think about.
And here is another thought, a fully nanoed rapier post patch with go 2.1 km/s with an mwd. An interceptor will catch up to it THROUGH THE WEBS and turn off the mwd. This ship is going to join the gallente recons I'm afraid.
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Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:12:00 -
[53]
Looks like the Rapier is going to fall back on its only use left, Freighter b!tch...
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P'uck
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:20:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Trojanman190
And here is another thought, a fully nanoed rapier post patch with go 2.1 km/s with an mwd. An interceptor will catch up to it THROUGH THE WEBS and turn off the mwd.
Lol, this was a paranoid thought of mine, but I didn't want to think it's actually doable...
TP bonus, I tell ye  That balance guy at ccp probably argues it's a good thing he made it useful again...
|
Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:34:00 -
[55]
However, with AB being more common in the following patch, target painters might gain some usefulness because there wont be the almost guaranteed signature radius boost from people using micro warp drives.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:44:00 -
[56]
Quote:
No other ship has this "wonderful" pair of bonuses.
Dominix. Bonus on drone and gun.
The phoon is a really good ship, i love the dual bonus. HE can do a lot of DPS and don't have to fear nos or neutra.
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: BABARR
Quote:
No other ship has this "wonderful" pair of bonuses.
Dominix. Bonus on drone and gun.
The phoon is a really good ship, i love the dual bonus. HE can do a lot of DPS and don't have to fear nos or neutra.
One word. Raven.
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: BABARR
Quote:
No other ship has this "wonderful" pair of bonuses.
Dominix. Bonus on drone and gun.
The phoon is a really good ship, i love the dual bonus. HE can do a lot of DPS and don't have to fear nos or neutra.
One word. Raven.
Dominix gets 475 dps with ONLY drones. Phoon with 4 cruise and 5x ogres Gets the same. That one bonus on the dominix is superior tot he phoons bonuses. Id gladly have a drone bonus and not a gun or missile bonus. Heck id like that even if I didn't have the drone bay expanded.
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Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 23:51:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Wall of Text
Either someone has been reading our minmatar/projectile brainstorming threads or somebody actually understand the predicament... or both. Bring tears to my eyes...
The only reason the phoon is even remotely decent right now is because the split weapon systems and heavy drone bay allow it to forget about it's weapons and use it as a utility ship.
If you fit 4 ac and 4 cruise or torps you are absolutely using this ship wrong (unless going for full gankage and can only fly minmatar, in which case this is probably your only choice.)
This ship's advantage over the domi is powergrid, so ***** it. 3 Neuts plz. 3 Neuts is enough to make a nano pilot get up and walk away from the computer and a battleship pilot contemplate using his insurance payout to put stabs on his next ship. All the while 4 cruise and 5x heavy drones get your dps to over 500. With a cap injector driving your 7 slot dual rep tank you even tank better than the tempest does and put out comparable dps. Pre nerf, the weight of your ship actually allowed you to kite enemy targets decently, because you could use missiles do do your damage from range (lol no f41loff)
So, phoon wins because it has shitty bonuses that make it so that you don't feel bad trying wacky setups that completely ignore bonuses. At any given time, I consider this ship to have 4 ultility high slots.
so to sum it up the phoon is so good because split weapon system is so bad that anyway you dont want to gank it so you can go with utility whitout any remorse?
remember that no one force you to fit 6-8 weapons on your ship, you can do the same with all other BS just fit 4 primary weapons and 4 utility mods
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Amandin Adouin
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 23:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 31/07/2008 23:55:05
I really don't get why all these people are so vehemently arguing against any fixes to the Typhoon or other Matari ships... I mean the issue with the split weapon system bonus on the Typhoon, not to mention the evenly split weapon hardpoints, is so absurdly obvious that it really makes me question why anyone would even bother arguing that it's fine.
I mean I know that this isn't an ideal world and not everyone wants an even playing field, but honestly arguing against some of these issues just makes you look ignorant.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:01:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 01/08/2008 00:01:47
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 01/08/2008 00:01:32
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 31/07/2008 23:55:05
I really don't get why all these people are so vehemently arguing against any fixes to the Typhoon or other Matari ships... I mean the issue with the split weapon system bonus on the Typhoon, not to mention the evenly split weapon hardpoints, is so absurdly obvious that it really makes me question why anyone would even bother arguing that it's fine.
I mean I know that this isn't an ideal world and not everyone wants an even playing field, but honestly arguing against some of these issues just makes you look ignorant.
Obviously it is not desireable to let the slave race get their hands on too good ships. We need our slave gals dancing and entertaining our amarrian b00bbars without matari fleet coming knocking on the door every now and then.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Gabrielle Atrocity
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:04:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Wall of Text
Either someone has been reading our minmatar/projectile brainstorming threads or somebody actually understand the predicament... or both. Bring tears to my eyes...
The only reason the phoon is even remotely decent right now is because the split weapon systems and heavy drone bay allow it to forget about it's weapons and use it as a utility ship.
If you fit 4 ac and 4 cruise or torps you are absolutely using this ship wrong (unless going for full gankage and can only fly minmatar, in which case this is probably your only choice.)
This ship's advantage over the domi is powergrid, so ***** it. 3 Neuts plz. 3 Neuts is enough to make a nano pilot get up and walk away from the computer and a battleship pilot contemplate using his insurance payout to put stabs on his next ship. All the while 4 cruise and 5x heavy drones get your dps to over 500. With a cap injector driving your 7 slot dual rep tank you even tank better than the tempest does and put out comparable dps. Pre nerf, the weight of your ship actually allowed you to kite enemy targets decently, because you could use missiles do do your damage from range (lol no f41loff)
So, phoon wins because it has shitty bonuses that make it so that you don't feel bad trying wacky setups that completely ignore bonuses. At any given time, I consider this ship to have 4 ultility high slots.
so to sum it up the phoon is so good because split weapon system is so bad that anyway you dont want to gank it so you can go with utility whitout any remorse?
remember that no one force you to fit 6-8 weapons on your ship, you can do the same with all other BS just fit 4 primary weapons and 4 utility mods
Sorry for not elaborating, the phoon has grid for 4 ac and 4 torps, so when you are fitting cruise and NOT acs you have shittones of powergrid left for stuff like neuts. Thats what I was getting at but did not explicitly say.
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:06:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 01/08/2008 00:08:03
Hurray for alts.
Also, phoon has the dronebay action goin on. The other minmatar ships really don't.
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Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:16:00 -
[64]
that is valid for most of other ships too, you can fit 4 cruisers on your raven and be happy or 4 electron on your blasterboat and so on...
you can do that for most ships if you dont chose your biggest dmg weapon and fit just 4 of them.
also in this role the domi is not bad at all as a good part of its dmg comes from drones (that doesnt use slots) and it have 1 mid more than phoon
the phoon in general is a ship not very generous about cpu/pg, is not a mistery that you cant really dualrep it (thing that you can do with a lot of bs) so i dont see any advantage
and about the drone... most bs (cept minnie) are able to field a full squad of heavy drones so again i dont see this huge advantage over other ship... ok is better than the pest but we all alredy know that it suck more than the phoon
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
|
Amandin Adouin
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 01/08/2008 00:01:47
Obviously it is not desireable to let the slave race get their hands on too good ships. We need our slave gals dancing and entertaining our amarrian b00bbars without matari fleet coming knocking on the door every now and then.
Heh, at least when we're dancing for you we're not in your dirty disease ridden beds 
I think... that when the Minmatar win the war, I'll take you as my personal slave girl .
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:28:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ath Amon
that is valid for most of other ships too, you can fit 4 cruisers on your raven and be happy or 4 electron on your blasterboat and so on...
you can do that for most ships if you dont chose your biggest dmg weapon and fit just 4 of them.
also in this role the domi is not bad at all as a good part of its dmg comes from drones (that doesnt use slots) and it have 1 mid more than phoon
the phoon in general is a ship not very generous about cpu/pg, is not a mistery that you cant really dualrep it (thing that you can do with a lot of bs) so i dont see any advantage
and about the drone... most bs (cept minnie) are able to field a full squad of heavy drones so again i dont see this huge advantage over other ship... ok is better than the pest but we all alredy know that it suck more than the phoon
But the phoon is a ship with split weapon systems. So if you fill all the highs with weapons a single damage mod in the low will only modify 4 of them at a time. So it makes no sense to lose half your turrets that would have been better used for guns because the damage mods would be more effective. The phoon is the best ship to leave a set of weapons off of because you cant effectivly fit a damage mod anywys.
Do you see what I mean now?
Dropping 4 guns on the maelstrom is goofy because you could get a single damage modifier to be used x8 on the guns as opposed to x4. On the typhoon, the most a single damage mod will ever get is x4. So it is perfect for that type of thing. Thats what im saying.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:32:00 -
[67]
Quote:
I think... that when the Minmatar win the war, I'll take you as my personal slave
Can i aplly?
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:38:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Ath Amon
that is valid for most of other ships too, you can fit 4 cruisers on your raven and be happy or 4 electron on your blasterboat and so on...
you can do that for most ships if you dont chose your biggest dmg weapon and fit just 4 of them.
also in this role the domi is not bad at all as a good part of its dmg comes from drones (that doesnt use slots) and it have 1 mid more than phoon
the phoon in general is a ship not very generous about cpu/pg, is not a mistery that you cant really dualrep it (thing that you can do with a lot of bs) so i dont see any advantage
and about the drone... most bs (cept minnie) are able to field a full squad of heavy drones so again i dont see this huge advantage over other ship... ok is better than the pest but we all alredy know that it suck more than the phoon
But the phoon is a ship with split weapon systems. So if you fill all the highs with weapons a single damage mod in the low will only modify 4 of them at a time. So it makes no sense to lose half your turrets that would have been better used for guns because the damage mods would be more effective. The phoon is the best ship to leave a set of weapons off of because you cant effectivly fit a damage mod anywys.
Do you see what I mean now?
Dropping 4 guns on the maelstrom is goofy because you could get a single damage modifier to be used x8 on the guns as opposed to x4. On the typhoon, the most a single damage mod will ever get is x4. So it is perfect for that type of thing. Thats what im saying.
as i said in the other post you are saying that phoon is good because the split weapon system is crap...
i agree with you that almost no one will sacrifice 2 or 4 main weapons to fit utility. this is a problem not a pro of the ship, you can do that on any ship but you dont do it as is just better to fit your weapons and do way more dmg ignoring this option (an option you still have)
the fact that you are more inclined to do it on the phoon is just the proof of how split weapon system is the "crap weapon system"
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
|
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 00:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: BABARR
Two or three words : phoon can tackle and MWD away
So can the raven.
Quote:
and can have a extra mid slot
Which if using torps is a painter, which my raven setup has. The raven can fit 4 BCUs without a second thought.
Quote:
he can have 5xECM drone whith his 5xHeavy.
And the raven can have more range, no falloff to worry about, more damage, fully selectable damage types, and less damageable DPS.
Quote:
I usually don't die against raven. I kill him or run away.
That's cute. Cown can **** people in a tempest too, doesn't mean the tempest is wtfbbq.
The only thing (ONLY) a phoon has over raven is RR-gang ability. Which is silly at the least, because you either have shit range or shit damage.
|
BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 01:38:00 -
[70]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: BABARR
Two or three words : phoon can tackle and MWD away
So can the raven.
Quote:
and can have a extra mid slot
Which if using torps is a painter, which my raven setup has. The raven can fit 4 BCUs without a second thought.
Quote:
he can have 5xECM drone whith his 5xHeavy.
And the raven can have more range, no falloff to worry about, more damage, fully selectable damage types, and less damageable DPS.
Quote:
I usually don't die against raven. I kill him or run away.
That's cute. Cown can **** people in a tempest too, doesn't mean the tempest is wtfbbq.
The only thing (ONLY) a phoon has over raven is RR-gang ability. Which is silly at the least, because you either have shit range or shit damage.
A phoon usually EAT a raven who is fitted whith a MWD and tackle.
You can choose the dammage whith a phoon too. You have Heavy drone if never a HAC come close, or if you are jammed.
And finally, a phoon cost less than a raven :).
Yes for pure damage the raven is better, but the phoon is not so bad.
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 01:49:00 -
[71]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 01/08/2008 01:49:33
Originally by: BABARR
A phoon usually EAT a raven who is fitted whith a MWD and tackle.
You don't seem to be understanding here. This isn't true.
Quote:
You can choose the dammage whith a phoon too.
Not completely, if you want to do any damage at range you're using barrage. Plus you're limited to 18km with max skills on torps, which is the majority of your DPS
Quote:
You have Heavy drone if never a HAC come close, or if you are jammed.
That's nice. They can also die pretty easily and remove a good portion of your DPS. Raven doesn't have this issue.
Quote:
And finally, a phoon cost less than a raven :)
What, 5mil less after insurance? Provided you're rigging both ships (you should be), the price difference between the ships is miniscule at best.
Quote:
Yes for pure damage the raven is better, but the phoon is not so bad.
For pure damage... and range, and non-destroyable DPS. The phoon isn't bad, simply outclassed.
PS. You're not going to win this fight
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 01:56:00 -
[72]
Edited by: BABARR on 01/08/2008 02:03:16
Edited by: BABARR on 01/08/2008 02:02:44
Edited by: BABARR on 01/08/2008 01:59:43
Quote:
What, 5mil less after insurance?
Uh, maybe right, long time i don't insure my ship
Quote:
That's nice. They can also die pretty easily and remove a good portion of your DPS. Raven doesn't have this issue.
Yes, but.. if you are jammed they still hit, they can go at 60km, you can put sentry drone who are fun, ect. There is the good and the bad (it's eve online)
Quote:
Not completely, if you want to do any damage at range you're using barrage. Plus you're limited to 18km with max skills on torps, which is the majority of your DPS
You have near 15km of range whith T1 ammo. But true, you have a better range whith the raven.
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:08:00 -
[73]
Originally by: BABARR
Uh, maybe right, long time i don't insure my ship
 BS are dirt cheap after insurance.
Quote:
Yes, but.. if you are jammed they still hit, they can go at 60km, you can put sentry drone who are fun, ect. There is the good and the bad (it's eve online)
It's like 300 DPS maximum... if you're jammed, you're jammed. The raven has a little over 3/5ths that damage anyway. You're piddling.
Quote:
You have near 15km of range whith T1 ammo. But true, you have a better range whith the raven.
20km EFT range, about 18km real range, max skills. Plus your autocannon's optimal is 3km, 6 if barrage. You have better DPS from the raven at 25km than the phoon at 2.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:11:00 -
[74]
Phoon are armor tanked, more easy to be in a remote armor tank gang than shield transfer :)
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:13:00 -
[75]
Originally by: BABARR
Phoon are armor tanked, more easy to be in a remote armor tank gang than shield transfer :)
Originally by: AstroPhobic
The only thing (ONLY) a phoon has over raven is RR-gang ability. Which is silly at the least, because you either have shit range or shit damage.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:24:00 -
[76]
Edited by: BABARR on 01/08/2008 02:24:55
Erm
and nothing about :
The phoon is so ugly he afraids the ennemy!
Lot of people think the phoon is easy to kill, so you have more target !
The factory of the phoon don't use slave!
A phoon reject less than 250g of CO2 per AU warped!
Fly a phoon is beautiful!
Phoon one day, phoon everyday!
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:39:00 -
[77]
Originally by: BABARR
Edited by: BABARR on 01/08/2008 02:24:55
Erm
and nothing about :
The phoon is so ugly he afraids the ennemy!
Lot of people think the phoon is easy to kill, so you have more target !
The factory of the phoon don't use slave!
A phoon reject less than 250g of CO2 per AU warped!
Fly a phoon is beautiful!
Phoon one day, phoon everyday!
By these standards, the naglfar is uber. 
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Blastil
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 02:39:00 -
[78]
Every ship fills a role. Minmatar ships are designed to fill the 'I don't know what in the world I'm supposed to do with this, so lets leave it open to interpretation' role. Galent fill Close range DPS, Caldari fill EWAR and long range DPS, while Ammar fill the tanking role (although nothing beats a galent structure tank, NOTHING I SAY!) Comparing a raven to a phoon is like comparing an apple to an orange, or a woman to a man. The raven is not half as delicious, and just as *****y as a woman. Oh, and it gives out great DPS. THATS IT.
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
EVESpace
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 03:51:00 -
[79]
Maybe we should just make the phoon vertical, that way everyone will stop complaining and CCP can call it a day.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post. |
Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 12:14:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Spaztick
Maybe we should just make the phoon vertical, that way everyone will stop complaining and CCP can call it a day.
Haha, I would totally fly the phoon no matter how bad it is nerfed if it becomes vertical
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Happster
Polaris Project
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 14:04:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Happster on 01/08/2008 14:05:48
Originally by: BABARR
A phoon usually EAT a raven who is fitted whith a MWD and tackle.
But ofcourse. Ratting ships or mission ships doesnt usally fit a scram.
Go toe to toe vs a pvp fitted raven and your dps phoon will never stand a chance.
Only phoon fitting that will have a chance against a pvp fitted raven is a neut raven.
Even then some well fitted pvp ravens will break you.
Edit:
I got LG slave set, and my phoon is plated. This usally gives me time to kill the PVP raven before it kills me. Its kind of close race. But if the PVP raven has recistance riggs, your gonna loose.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 14:21:00 -
[82]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Also, make it more agile than a freakin' Hyperion.
FFS.
New changes already do this. ALso, its a split weapon system taht can also deploy full drones. The ship is fine and pretty badass with full t2 (GL fitting it, but whatever)
-----------------
Friends Forever |
Derek Sigres
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 14:21:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Happster
Edited by: Happster on 01/08/2008 14:06:38
Originally by: BABARR
A phoon usually EAT a raven who is fitted whith a MWD and tackle.
But ofcourse. Ratting ships or mission ships doesnt usally fit a scram.
Go toe to toe vs a pvp fitted raven and your dps phoon will never stand a chance.
Only phoon fitting that will have a chance against a pvp fitted raven is a neut raven.
Even then some well fitted pvp ravens will break you.
Edit:
I got LG slave set, and my phoon is plated. This usally gives me time to kill the PVP raven before it kills me. Its kind of close race. But if the PVP raven has recistance riggs and faction modules, your gonna loose.
Resistance rigs on a raven are a wise investment. Faction mods on a PVP raven? I wouldn't do it.
Basically when it comes to a shield tanked PVP Boat I always rig them, if nothing else with resist rigs. At 3 million or so a piece the boost to my EHP is always welcome (especially considering I give up quite a lot of EHP to fit tackle gear of any sort).
If I'm feeling wealthy or silly I'll use extender rigs - but at 13 - 20 million each (depending on where I am naturally - 13 million in Caldari space thanks to all those guristas mission farmers) which generally grant me a sturdier buffer.
In my mind there really isn't a faction mod worth using on a PVP ship for Caldari. Invulnerability fields are fantastically expensive (over 100k LP if you farm them yourself), BCS's are fantastically expensive, faction launchers are both expensive and remove my options for fitting T2 ammo (which is really only a concern for POS sieges or Assault Launchers/Standard Launchers)
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:28:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 01/08/2008 14:30:06
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 01/08/2008 14:28:32
With full T2 (fits with an RCUI) you get over 1000 damage with good mobility (with mwd) and a pretty mean tank.
Idk, for the cost of the ship, that pretty cool. Neat to be hitting with three different weapon system too: they TD you, missles drones, scramble you, drones can still kill. Plus, you're zipping around too.
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Friends Forever |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:32:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 01/08/2008 14:30:06
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 01/08/2008 14:28:32
With full T2 (fits with an RCUI) you get over 1000 damage with good mobility (with mwd) and a pretty mean tank.
Idk, for the cost of the ship, that pretty cool. Neat to be hitting with three different weapon system too: they TD you, missles drones, scramble you, drones can still kill. Plus, you're zipping around too.
Not to be mean anything, but did you read the rest of the thread where I proved beyond a doubt that the raven is better suited for the job?
You know, except RR gangs, but the phoon isn't a great choice for them either.
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:47:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 01/08/2008 14:47:50
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Ath Amon
that is valid for most of other ships too, you can fit 4 cruisers on your raven and be happy or 4 electron on your blasterboat and so on...
you can do that for most ships if you dont chose your biggest dmg weapon and fit just 4 of them.
also in this role the domi is not bad at all as a good part of its dmg comes from drones (that doesnt use slots) and it have 1 mid more than phoon
the phoon in general is a ship not very generous about cpu/pg, is not a mistery that you cant really dualrep it (thing that you can do with a lot of bs) so i dont see any advantage
and about the drone... most bs (cept minnie) are able to field a full squad of heavy drones so again i dont see this huge advantage over other ship... ok is better than the pest but we all alredy know that it suck more than the phoon
But the phoon is a ship with split weapon systems. So if you fill all the highs with weapons a single damage mod in the low will only modify 4 of them at a time. So it makes no sense to lose half your turrets that would have been better used for guns because the damage mods would be more effective. The phoon is the best ship to leave a set of weapons off of because you cant effectivly fit a damage mod anywys.
Do you see what I mean now?
Dropping 4 guns on the maelstrom is goofy because you could get a single damage modifier to be used x8 on the guns as opposed to x4. On the typhoon, the most a single damage mod will ever get is x4. So it is perfect for that type of thing. Thats what im saying.
as i said in the other post you are saying that phoon is good because the split weapon system is crap...
i agree with you that almost no one will sacrifice 2 or 4 main weapons to fit utility. this is a problem not a pro of the ship, you can do that on any ship but you dont do it as is just better to fit your weapons and do way more dmg ignoring this option (an option you still have)
the fact that you are more inclined to do it on the phoon is just the proof of how split weapon system is the "crap weapon system"
And I agree with that 110%. Maybe even 150%. Could be closer to 200%. Maybe higher. Exactly what I am getting at.
I'm not saying the phoon is good because the split weapon system. I'm saying that because it has a split weapon system and one of those weapon systems is crappy, the ship can actually be made better by ignoring the weaker weapon system. Which is crap.
When a ship is made significantly better by ignoring a bonus and tossing 3 heavy neuts on in their place, something is quite obviously wrong with the ship. It makes no sense for rp either.
You know what would be s3x?
5% - 10% per level to neut/nos range per level. That would make this ship redonkulusly cool to fly wihtout being goofy overpowered. And I wouldnt have to deal with those pesky autocannons anymore.
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forum mematar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:14:00 -
[87]
Edited by: forum mematar on 01/08/2008 18:21:11
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: DeadRow
A bonus for two of its weapons systems = 2 bonus'
The phoon is a good ship- just takes time train properly for
No other ship has this "wonderful" pair of bonuses.
BTW, the raven outdoes the phoon... would you like me to pull up setups and numbers again? Unless you're using it for a RR gang, and even then you only fit missiles.
Pull some numbers up your ass and come beat my Phoon in a 1v1 with your Raven.
Wont happen...
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http://stige.pingtimeout.net/evevids/ |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:15:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Also, make it more agile than a freakin' Hyperion.
FFS.
you say that like its some sort of absolutely astounding unimaginable event. A hyperion needs to be agile, its absolutely essential for it since its a dedicated blaster ship that operates at close ranges.....
if a raven was more agile than a typhoon, then i would see need to complain.
Okay, so what kind of advantages do YOU think the minmatar has as a race on a whole? Capless weapons?
Really?
Minmatar are supposed to be light, agile, fast, and versatile. They already killed versatile and fast, do you want to take away light and agile too?
Get your head out of your ass and take a look at the races on a whole.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:16:00 -
[89]
Originally by: forum mematar
Pull some numbers up for arse and come beat my Phoon in a 1v1 with your Raven.
Wont happen...
Post your phoon setup please.
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woozaaa
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:20:00 -
[90]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: forum mematar
Pull some numbers up for arse and come beat my Phoon in a 1v1 with your Raven.
Wont happen...
Post your phoon setup please.
so you can make a counter fit? dude the man is challenging you and you want to do an eft warrior session?
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Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:22:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Transmaniacon on 01/08/2008 18:23:28
Lets keep this clean guys, I want a good, fair fight. 
* Transmaniacon waves the starting flag
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forum mematar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:22:00 -
[92]
Winner pays the loser 100m, okay?
I'm not here for EFT, I'm here to show you how it works outside EFT!
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http://stige.pingtimeout.net/evevids/ |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:24:00 -
[93]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 01/08/2008 18:25:24
Originally by: woozaaa
so you can make a counter fit? dude the man is challenging you and you want to do an eft warrior session?
I've already posted my raven fit 100 times www.eve-search.com
Anyway, memetar, you're wrong. Numbers don't lie, honestly.
Edit: 1 on 1 isn't going to work either way. The only way you can really compare two BS is in their role, which luckily for the raven and phoon are pretty much the same. 1 on 1 just means I post a fit and he posts a counter fit and I post a counter fit and...
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:25:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 01/08/2008 18:25:22
Originally by: Spaztick
Maybe we should just make the phoon freakin vertical, that way everyone will stop complaining and CCP can call it a day.
Fixed.
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forum mematar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:31:00 -
[95]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 01/08/2008 18:25:24
Originally by: woozaaa
so you can make a counter fit? dude the man is challenging you and you want to do an eft warrior session?
I've already posted my raven fit 100 times www.eve-search.com
Anyway, memetar, you're wrong. Numbers don't lie, honestly.
Edit: 1 on 1 isn't going to work either way. The only way you can really compare two BS is in their role, which luckily for the raven and phoon are pretty much the same. 1 on 1 just means I post a fit and he posts a counter fit and I post a counter fit and...
So you are just afraid and an EFT warrior, figured as much...
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http://stige.pingtimeout.net/evevids/ |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:53:00 -
[96]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 01/08/2008 18:54:21
Originally by: forum mematar
So you are just afraid and an EFT warrior, figured as much...
I'm not stupid enough to go around accepting internet duels over the forums, for several reasons. 1. I can't fly a max skilled raven. 2. I'm completely minmatar specced, I DO fly a typhoon. 3. 1 on 1 BS duels are ******ed at best and don't really accomplish anything. Why? Because they don't happen very often at all.
So what do we do? We compare numbers, stats, and how each ship will do in a role. I'll post both a raven and phoon setup, and you can tell me how my phoon setup is uberfail, mmkay?
[Raven, Torps]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Target Painter II
Warp Disruptor II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Large EMP Smartbomb I /OFFLINE
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
1215 DPS at 30km, 94K EHP. Painter, tackle. Fully changeable damage types. Can overload on average about 50 seconds, for 1392 DPS.
[Typhoon, Torps/Close]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Internal Force Field Array I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Faint Warp Prohibitor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Ogre II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
1166 DPS at 2.4 KM. 1080 at 20km, 425 at 21km. 91k EHP. Painter, tackle. Mostly changeable damage types. Can overload for 1310 DPS and lose 3 mods under 20 seconds, 5 under 30. Has ECM drones for backup, but a good portion of it's DPS is damageable. Also starts to lose damage after 2.4km.
Requires 4 named modules just to get the CPU to fit
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Trojanman190
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:57:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 01/08/2008 19:00:59
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 01/08/2008 18:59:02
Originally by: woozaaa
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: forum mematar
Pull some numbers up for arse and come beat my Phoon in a 1v1 with your Raven.
Wont happen...
Post your phoon setup please.
so you can make a counter fit? dude the man is challenging you and you want to do an eft warrior session?
You don't fit ships for solo like you do for gang.
It's not a valid comparison because the vast majority of us play eve on tranquility and not on the test server. On the test server you see people owning with ravens with 5x ecm, a target painter, siege, ecm drones and neuts. People don't fly like that on tranquility.
1 ship beating another 1 on 1 is almost all setup.
For example, look at this setup.
Maelstrom.
6x Heavy Neut, 2x Thermal Large Smartbomb.
3x Shield Extender, 3x large Cap Battery
5x CPRs
4x Ogre IIs.
Completely cap stable. Will annihilate any active tank ship out there. Will Annihlate any ship that relies on drones. Passive tanked capless weaponry ships (non drone) will annihlate it. This setup.
Do you really think people roll around tranquility with setups like that? That maelstrom will melt any amar ship out there, but on tranquility saying that a maelstrom will melt an amar ship is borderline insanity. People just don't (vast majority that is) make insane setups like that on tq because on tq things cost isk. And a buffer tanked phoon or tempest, which are common on tq, will easily beat it.
Another example.
Abbadon versus tempest.
Tempest:
6x 800mm. 2x Nos. (or cruise)
Cap Injector, Mwd, 3x Tracking Disruptors.
3x istab, 3x nano.
3x poly
Zomg, it can kite! And is immune ot the abbadon's damage! This would work on any other turret based ship in the game with a standard setup. Turret based ships are pretty common... so why don't we see this setup?
Because currently on tq, where most of us do our pew pew, you will get webed in two seconds by a rapier or an inty, or a t1 frigate and the battleship (there will probably be many) will demolish you.
But 1 on 1 that pest rocks.
The point im trying to show is 1v1 is goofy. It happens in extremely rare circumstances and is inherently flawed when determining balance.
Eve is a lot more complicated than 1v1
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:41:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
INVERT THE DAMM SHIELD/ARMOR HP RATIO!
This.
That would be too easy.
CCP don't do 'Easy'.
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If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Maeltstome
Minmatar
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:53:00 -
[99]
my matari char has 7mil in gunnery. My caldari char has 7mil in MLO. Both have BS5 in the respective races.
I'd fly the raven any day over the phoon. Plus the navy raven is a monster in pvp - it simply puts all faction matari bs to shame. Phoon can tank 'well' - meaning it's got an identical tank to both gallente bs, but struggles to keep up with the dps if it decides to tank. Most of it's DPS is from torps also, which are only a secondary matari weapon. The rest of its damage is from drones, which is another secondary. Projectiles are pathetic on it, and im inclinded to agree with some of the medium gun fits i've seen, even bonused large projectiles are a joke.
And its capacitor is poor.
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[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5
[12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
dolmant
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Posted - 2008.08.02 07:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Wall of Text
Either someone has been reading our minmatar/projectile brainstorming threads or somebody actually understand the predicament... or both. Bring tears to my eyes...
The only reason the phoon is even remotely decent right now is because the split weapon systems and heavy drone bay allow it to forget about it's weapons and use it as a utility ship.
If you fit 4 ac and 4 cruise or torps you are absolutely using this ship wrong (unless going for full gankage and can only fly minmatar, in which case this is probably your only choice.)
This ship's advantage over the domi is powergrid, so ***** it. 3 Neuts plz. 3 Neuts is enough to make a nano pilot get up and walk away from the computer and a battleship pilot contemplate using his insurance payout to put stabs on his next ship. All the while 4 cruise and 5x heavy drones get your dps to over 500. With a cap injector driving your 7 slot dual rep tank you even tank better than the tempest does and put out comparable dps. Pre nerf, the weight of your ship actually allowed you to kite enemy targets decently, because you could use missiles do do your damage from range (lol no f41loff)
So, phoon wins because it has shitty bonuses that make it so that you don't feel bad trying wacky setups that completely ignore bonuses. At any given time, I consider this ship to have 4 ultility high slots.
i wrote something, but i found i could not improve on what this guy said. except the domi has 2 bonuses (5% to 6 turrets, 10% to rack of heavies). we have 5% to 8 guns. Plus AC's suck. QED
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:07:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2008 11:08:08
Unless I have fitting to spare I don't bother with large ACs, just arn't worth the fitting cost.
Siege T2 w/ CN Torp: 95.6 DPS @ 20km
800mm T2 AC w/ Barrage: 52.9 DPS @ 6km (30km falloff)
800mm T2 AC w/ RF EMP: 60.8 DPS @ 3km (20km falloff)
Compared to medium ACs...
425mm T2 AC w/ Barrage: 29.8 DPS @ 3km (15km Falloff)
425mm T2 AC w/ RF EMP: 34.2 DPS @ 1.5km (10km Falloff)
Better tracking.
425s use 138.6 PG and 18.8 CPU vs 1980 PG and 30.8 CPU.
So over 4 turrets the DPS difference is:
Large RF EMP vs Med Barrage (similar range) = 211.6 vs 119.
So under 100 DPS, which is more likely to be less due to it being practically impossible to fit highest tier large AC's on the Typhoon. Sorry but 100 DPS total DPS gain is not worth roughly 1500 pg per turret extra (roughly 6000 PG total) on a PG limited ship.
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Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Jones Maloy
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:33:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Jones Maloy on 02/08/2008 11:33:44
Originally by: Spaztick
Maybe we should just make the phoon vertical, that way everyone will stop complaining and CCP can call it a day.
But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
i'm reading you sig every time damnit X(
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Real men use 8 heatsinks. |
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