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diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:39:00 -
[91]
This could well be a decent stealth boost to black ops., depending on what the CSM has or is talking about doing in addition to them since it was on their agenda at one point.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:43:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 01:44:29
Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In EvE terms, it means that a nanogang (or nanoblob which is often the case) engaging conventional blobs bigger then them and then retreating if it gets too hot isn't guerilla warfare.
Guerilla warfare, in EvE terms, would be flying in a smaller, more mobile (read: inties/etc) gang and ganking ratters/smaller gangs and getting out before the blob actually arrives. It doesn't mean you should never sustain losses either.
Of course, you can just decide to rewrite the dictionary and claim CCP are breaking your definiton of guerilla warfare, but that's hardly a valid argument now.
I mean, we can argue HAC balance, but saying that guerilla warfare is dead and then claiming guerilla warfare is engaging someone's main forces and then running away when it gets ugly is a silly concept.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spike Hammer
Gravis Corp
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:13:00 -
[93]
There was pvp before nano's and there will pvp without them.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:14:00 -
[94]
 Originally by: Cpt Branko
Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In eve this is the same thing. In eve you cannot just avoid the enemy. Stargates create chokepoints, particularly in 0.0. Otherwise the blob just camps the chokepoint into their systems, and you go home and dock. End of day.
If you can't get through a blob with a good chance of living, there is no guerilla warfare. You'll just be camped in and logoffski/death will become your choices. Nobody here wants to play that game.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk
While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Xtro 2
Caldari
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:15:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
PvP will be a bit more like in 2005/2006 without ridiculous speeds and I welcome this change.
Enjoy EVE, quit whining or GTFO.
lol wut?
i remeber back in 2005, my ferox went 5km/s
and was only good BC because it used to spamm missiles from the speeds.
Altho, i agree, speed nerf was long overdue since introduction of rigs and t2 modules.
im pretty sure you used to pilot typhoons at higher speeds b4 that time?
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman.
Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.01 09:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 31/07/2008 23:32:04
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Battleships and battlecruisers are already too slow to move long distances to enemy territory without taking an hour and a half to do it.
Warp to zero. A BS that takes 13 seconds (10 seconds max if you cycle MWD for instawarp) to align and a nanoship that takes 3 seconds to align mean that each warp is 10 seconds faster.
So 60 jumps is 600 seconds which is a grand total of 10 minutes extra to move over a 60 jumps.
Remember you can warp to zero.
Align time isn't even close to the majority of travel time. Remember there is warp speed (varies by ship class, warp time is the actual majority of travel time), and the time it takes to load the next system (depends on your machine, and on the load of other systems on the node)
Rather than trying to make up numbers on the spot, go get a few dozen friends, put them in BS (Especially plated ones, so you can withstand the inevitable DD when you arrive from the defenders) and see how long it takes you to do 60 jumps.
Really, I dare you. It will take hours, not even counting the time it takes you to organize your two dozen friends, if you can do that at all.
Nano Zealot warps at 3au/sec
BS warps at 3au/sec
I fail to see what, other than around 10 seconds more align time, is going to turn a extra 10 minutes from 60 jumps into "Hours" as you state. DD has nothing to do with flyng a nanoship since the best way to kill nanogang is with a nice laggy DD. The problem with nanogangs is taclking them. We got to the stage where nano-zealot would jump in with you and MWD 100km away by the time you lock him in a sensor boosted rapier and then nano zealot would snipe you with heavy beams. This and other pathetic nano tactics was destroying eve. CCP recognised this and fixed it.
Rules of Balace
1. Balance stuff on what people actually do and ignore what people "SAY" they do.
2. Ignore all "doom and gloom" predictions people make
3. Focus only on hard real data and ignore made up stuff on forums.
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Atrei Capital
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Posted - 2008.08.01 09:29:00 -
[97]
ITT:
Guerrilla warfare apparently means engaging a superior force, directly, but running fast enough to dodge bullets so a few ships can fight a superior force. It's balanced because obviously those non nano pilots are noobs, and speed tanking means you're the elite flyers of internet spaceships.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.08.01 10:26:00 -
[98]
Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 01/08/2008 10:29:08
No no no no no no no.
I'm not going to read the comments, because even if someone else has pointed this out, it needs to be reinforced: preferably involving ink, sharp needles, and the foreheads of anyone who thinks otherwise.
THE BLOB IS NOT A SWARM OF SHIPS IN CLOSE PROXIMITY.
THE BLOB IS A HUGE NUMBER OF SHIPS IN THE SAME GRID.
If you think differently, think of this: 1 million ships orbitting a gate at 250km. As spread out as you can get but still be in the same grid (possibly, but that's a different matter). But those 1 million ships still need to update each other on where everyone else is.
TO FIGHT THE BLOB YOU NEED TO REMOVE SHIPS FROM THE GRID.
That's the core philosophy that everyone should be thinking of. All these ideas of new ships, increasing grid size, bombs are nonsense, rubbish, and snake-oil, because they don't remove ships from the grid. The only things that can do that are DPS, or this ships not being there in the first place.
DO NOT CONFUSE A BLOB WITH A SWARM.
EDIT: Font size to really get the point accross. This may be the only time I resort to such tactics, but in this case they are necessary.
--
These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:24:00 -
[99]
#What a BS post,
i remember reading this crap last time they messed about with nanos,
such whining babies we have here, OP fails bigtime the whiney bastard.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:33:00 -
[100]
Blobs are broken, that doesnt make nanos less broken. Give more reasons not to fight in a blob. Just like in FW make sov things more depend on timer based objectives than the required time being inversely proportional with the ammount of dps you bring.
More numbers in a fight will always be better, it doesnt make sense that it isnt better. You just need to give people a reason to split up.
The problem with anti blob mechanics in general is that if you want to make an anti blob weapon, it should be effective against a large number of ships, but relative pointless against a few ships. Bombs would be the closest thing that can do that when they would be buffed. Nanos arent the holy grail of anti blob solutions. Yes, nanos can be used to counter a much larger blob. However that same nano group will also whipe out a small conventional gang, killing small gang and solo warfare unless they are nanod too.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:43:00 -
[101]
The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:56:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Naaah… The MF was more like a blockade runner with one too many hypervelocity opt rigs fitted.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 12:32:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Yes, nanos can be used to counter a much larger blob. However that same nano group will also whipe out a small conventional gang, killing small gang and solo warfare unless they are nanod too.
This. I see nanoblobs fairly often; and they're much harder to get away from then ordinary blobs which really nerfs soloing/small gang in conventional (non-nano) ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.08.01 13:32:00 -
[104]
you don't solve a problem by allowing another problem to exist..
speed nerf is the best thing happened to eve in years, so STFU ... the game is so dead because of idiots that misuse mechanics and did this in the start, most of all ccp's incompatence to actually do something against the problem is the main reason it have gone so far.
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 14:30:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Anubis Xian
The Millennium Falcon was a Nanoship, but yet I dont recall seeing any SSDs running laps around Hoth.
Naaah… The MF was more like a blockade runner with one too many hypervelocity opt rigs fitted.
Hmm, good point...perhaps the Suncrusher qualifies then. Too fast and invincible lol.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:12:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Guerilla warfare isn't fighting larger forces and running away when it gets too hot. It's avoiding superior (either numerically or qualitatively) forces and engaging weaker ones via suprise/etc.
In eve this is the same thing. In eve you cannot just avoid the enemy. Stargates create chokepoints, particularly in 0.0. Otherwise the blob just camps the chokepoint into their systems, and you go home and dock. End of day.
If you can't get through a blob with a good chance of living, there is no guerilla warfare. You'll just be camped in and logoffski/death will become your choices. Nobody here wants to play that game.
And this old hackneyed argument is, of course, incorrect.
There are multiple ways to attack most every constellation in EVE 0.0. True, you may have to travel a bit to get into the correct area to attack from an advantageous positon, but far from impossible.
The gurilla fighter is not, as a general rule, and olympic sprinter. They tend to be patient, to have gathered accurate and up to date intel on their potential target. manuver into the correct position undetected, hit hard and then retreat along an intelligently thought out line of retreat using effective scouting all throughout the process.
This process does indeed work in EVE... if your FC's and the rest of your team are well skilled.
If you are not well skilled, but have a lot of money, the current nano gangs are of course preferable. 
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:19:00 -
[107]
The power of nanos, imo, wasn't ever really that they could avoid drones or missiles. It was that they could pick their fights so well and the few things faster (EASs, inties) are complete cannon fodder for a HAC.
The big change that's really happening here I think is a transition from T2 cruisers to T2 frigs. I know it's sad to see speed fit cruisers get hacked so hard but change is the way of things and it opens up frigate speed fit options.
Honestly, I'm very much looking forward to seeing speed fit frigs tearing it up. Consider this: it looks like AFs are going to be going similar speeds to the nano HACs of today. With sigs around 1/4 that of cruisers, they'll be about 4x harder to put turret damage on than a HAC at that speed... that's no small deal.
The real big change I see is in missile boats, they'll be able to hit those AFs for damage where they're mostly ineffective against nanos now. Of course, speed fits haven't ever had trouble running from caldari boats and that's not likely to change. If you think about that though, is it really so bad that caldari get a bit of a boost for pvp pew pew? (I don't fly any caldari boats, fyi)
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.01 15:20:00 -
[108]
Ultimately, it was never intended for cruiser sized ships to run faster than missiles targeted for cruiser sized vessels. You can still speed tank, only now like every other type of tank you take some damage (still heavily reduced), as opposed to taking no damage at all.
All this crying about 'But...but I can actually get hit now!!! WTF!!' is really ******ed. Relax with the melodramatics.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:41:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 01/08/2008 20:43:14
Originally by: Ranger 1
There are multiple ways to attack most every constellation in EVE 0.0. True, you may have to travel a bit to get into the correct area to attack from an advantageous positon, but far from impossible.
The gurilla fighter is not, as a general rule, and olympic sprinter. They tend to be patient, to have gathered accurate and up to date intel on their potential target. manuver into the correct position undetected, hit hard and then retreat along an intelligently thought out line of retreat using effective scouting all throughout the process.
Go around? You mean like if you're trying to get into fountain, but Y-2 is blobbed, the 4 region, 50+ jump roundtrip is acceptable?
I'm realy surprised to hear this from a Morsus Mihi player. You of anyone should know that tribute is a big line of chokepoints, and thats why you frequently put large bubbles all over it. Morsus gets a bigger benefit from the lack of alternate routes than most alliances.
Your second part, seeing how easy it is for defenders to block the line of retreat with a blob, boils down to cloak + logoffski. No one wants that style of play.
Even in pure, where there were 3-4 routes out of our home system, as a defending FC I could have a blob in front of a retreating gang at chokepoints anywhere within 7 jumps or so, thanks to jumpbridges, before even a fleeing nano gang got there. 0.0 is and has always been ruled by controlling chokepoints.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk
While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.08.17 14:27:00 -
[110]
the counter to blobbing is goon
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
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