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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:49:00 -
[1]
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Robrina Brun
The Blueshift Cartel THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Robrina Brun on 30/07/2008 18:54:27 Adapt or die.
Am I doing it right?
A smaller, more agile group will always be able to outmaneuver a blob. They just won't be outmaneuvering missiles any longer.
Edit: Hint: Agility does not always mean being physically faster. If your group can respond to orders and adapt faster than your opponent, I'd say you were more agile.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[3]
Guerrilla warfare is striking at targets where your enemys blob is not. You do not need to have a hac that goes 7000ms to do that.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:53:00 -
[4]
Recon, Cov Ops, Black Ops? DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale!
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! |
Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:54:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Splagada on 30/07/2008 18:55:00 titan jumpbridge, and covert cynos? few groups can "blob" all sides of a group of systems ------
Tides of Silence |
TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:58:00 -
[6]
Yet the only counter nano pilots actually have to Blobs is Nano-blobs.
Discuss.
Oh wait, I'm actually going to include content in my post.
Blobbing occurs for a very simple reason. More people = more damage and more friendlies mean more targets for the enemy to shoot at that aren't you. There is safety in numbers, and hell, if it works, fun be damned, this game is about serious gaining of sovereignty right and precious moon minerals right?
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.30 18:59:00 -
[7]
too few places to decide on a battle. battle has to be in one place. if there was a way to spread out the blob itd work ------
Tides of Silence |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:01:00 -
[8]
So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: TheG2 There is safety in numbers, and hell, if it works, fun be damned, this game is about serious gaining of sovereignty right and precious moon minerals right?
Yes, fun be damned this is serious business not just a game
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Synapse Archae So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
No, what you're getting from this thread is nothing because you're being a pointless troll.
GOOD DAY SIR!
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:03:00 -
[11]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 19:05:05
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: dev blog
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
This point was the only one not actually addressed by the dev blog.
Discuss.
Incorrect. Read my thread on Anti-blob tactics.
The only thing that killed all anti-blob tactics was Nano. Nano meant the entire blob can warp to as far as the fastest ship, thus making a mockery of tactics baised upon countering a clumsey blob. This forced people to use bigger blobs vs blobs since both sides would be on top of each other at the same time, removing any incentive for lean mean small fleets to "peel the onion" of the clumsey blob by using drivebys and revese bottleneck gatecamp tactics etc which work very very well vs clumsey blobs.
Nano going away will mean anti-blob tactics will return to the game now. This is excellent.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:05:00 -
[12]
Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Synapse Archae So what I'm getting from thus thread so far is this:
Old 'n busted: fighting outnumbered
New hotness: running from blobs
In nanos you could at least try to pick off stragglers from a blob, or even harrass them knowing that you were relatively safe. Now your going to need to make sure that you are either sniping them fully aligned to warp out, or several jumps away.
The issue really isn't nanos (yes, they were broken at the extreme) but blobs. This round of nerfs just removed the one element that could fight the blobs. Expect ECM whines/nerfs next.
But always remember blob = more players = good for CCP
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:08:00 -
[15]
And if you can't think of any way to counter a lumbering BS gang without ships traveling at 4000+ meters a second, you aren't thinking very hard. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:09:00 -
[16]
blobbing was the only thing against blobbing
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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TheG2
Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Originally by: Synapse Archae Seriously if the only counter that the best trained and best equipped players have against a large group of noobs in bs is "Don't be there" then maybe we should take another look at game mechanics?
Training, Tactics, and Skill should allow you to fight outnumbered and win.
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
Actually, you're right on target.
Sniper BS's can actually be useful again as they won't have HAC's ontop of them within 30 seconds followed by a fleet warp right on top of them. Sure a blob can still have Interceptors to warp to, but a sniper ship will kill the ceptor before it gets within range.
Troll all you want OP, but its not going to change a thing, PVP will actually be enjoyable again.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: McDonALTs
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
I would consider 20BSes to be a blob just as 100 BSes are. Of course only buffoons aren't going to bring inities to warp to close distance, or someone in gang with sniper BMs for every gate they use.
We are certainly going to see a lot more BSes, that might be good as the fights will last longer.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:16:00 -
[19]
Didnt nano caused blobbing to get worse? because you know... its not safe to go out in small groups espeically those not toteing a nuter battleship or the other not able to contribute enough damage strike groups.
New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister |
McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: McDonALTs on 30/07/2008 19:19:25
Originally by: Qduhaf
Originally by: McDonALTs
They do. Nano removed the tactics part of the equasion, since distance in the battlefield became a non issue thus forcing people to blob up. Nano nerf will result in anti-blob tactics from 2 years ago returning. Expect to see more 20 bs beating off 100bs clumsey blobs in the near future as tactics return to eve.
I would consider 20BSes to be a blob just as 100 BSes are. Of course only buffoons aren't going to bring inities to warp to close distance, or someone in gang with sniper BMs for every gate they use.
We are certainly going to see a lot more BSes, that might be good as the fights will last longer.
Only bad thing with blob is lag. 20BS do not cause lag. 100bs blob causes lag is someone tries to bring another 100 to take them out.
I would rather see small fleets of 10-20 bs movign about space like they used to 2 years ago insted of 1,000man blobs that we get today (See MAX campaign superblob)
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 30/07/2008 19:18:08 Didnt nano caused blobbing to get worse? because you know... its not safe to go out in small groups espeically those not toteing a nuter battleship or the other not able to contribute enough damage strike groups. Running into any nano ship can spell doom for the whole group easily
No group safety causes blobs, it did with nanos and will even more without them.
To counter a small nano gang you really only needed 1 neut BS.
Everyone is focused on which side of the nano nerf side, while the real issue remains no effective way to fight the more is actually better mentality.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.07.30 19:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: McDonALTs
Only bad thing with blob is lag. 20BS do not cause lag. 100bs blob causes lag is someone tries to bring another 100 to take them out.
I would rather see small fleets of 10-20 bs movign about space like they used to 2 years ago insted of 1,000man blobs that we get today (See MAX campaign superblob)
you bring 10, i bring 20, you bring 50, i bring 100, you bring 200, etc.......
Without any limitations to the effectiveness of ships in huge groups the escalation cycle never ends
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:37:00 -
[23]
I would just love to see someone smart holding the nerfbat who understands fixing the disease, not the symptoms.
Sit back and think about why people choose to spend ridiculous amounts of isk on speed tanked hacs, why thats one of the few fun things to do, why no one wants to break up into smaller groups...
Really think HARD about these things and solve the issues underneath them.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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GallenteCitizen20080615
Gallente Federation War News
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Posted - 2008.07.31 00:38:00 -
[24]
again blobbing is the only effective against blobbing
that why we have blob warfare
havent heard of nano warfare
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
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Schalac
Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:01:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Schalac on 31/07/2008 01:01:37 "Blobbing" as you call it is a real life war tactic that works very well. Why would I not want as many people as I can get on my side fighting with me? In the first week of basic training one of the war strategies you learn about is if your enemy has a squad you bring a platoon. If they have a platoon you bring a company, and so on and so on. You know what, it works very well in most circumstances. Don't hate the blob, but maybe look for more people to fight for you instead of against you.
You never go into battle unless you are sure you can win.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Qduhaf
To counter a small nano gang you really only needed 1 neut BS.
Everyone is focused on which side of the nano nerf side, while the real issue remains no effective way to fight the more is actually better mentality.
Again you use 'counter' as in 'scare away', only things with which you can 'counter' nano as in 'blast ship to bits, pod and **** the frosen corpse' count And yes, that requires greater numbers; be it snipers, inty swarms or other nanoships.
_____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
NoOth3rDestiny
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Posted - 2008.07.31 01:41:00 -
[27]
Several small groups harassing a blob as it moves can easily take out portions of it slowly shrinking it, there are always stragglers. As for attacking head on, you'd need to engage at your range and outside of theirs to take out a larger number of ships. That could mean camping some distance off a gate with sniper BS, but this means in low sec there is no scram/dis on the enemies, but when you primary targets you could take many out before they escape. In 0.0 bubble a gate camp at your sniper range and align, and let it rip, if the enemy somehow manages to make a move closer you can warp off.
As far as I can see from FW blobs, they often move slow, leave a few stragglers after the main group has warped due to slower ships, laggers and poor communications, which can be hit before they warp off if you setup an ambush. Facing a blob head on is a bad idea if your group is smaller, so as said by the devs, guerrilla tactics to either eliminate the blob slowly, take out some of the group, or lower it enough to be able to face it head on.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:02:00 -
[28]
I'm posting this in from the dev blog responses. It says exactly what I wanted to say.
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Rawne Karrde
An Tir Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:11:00 -
[29]
I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.31 02:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rawne Karrde I fail to see how nano's helped defeat "blobs" when the enemy were bringing 40-60 of them in a gang together... oh wait thats a blob isn't it?
your enemy is representative of the entire population i take it?
------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
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