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Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Tippia How can they be thieves, when salvaging isn't stealing? To be theives, they need to take something that belongs to you û salvage belongs to whomever gets his mitts on it first I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. And moral people will treat it as such. If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft.
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Tippia How can they be thieves, when salvaging isn't stealing? To be theives, they need to take something that belongs to you û salvage belongs to whomever gets his mitts on it first I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. And moral people will treat it as such. If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft. So salvaging is immoral, gotcha
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:50:00 - [33] Quote: I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. And moral people will treat it as such. If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft. If this were real life, then the loot/salvage would belong to the families of all the hundreds of thousands of people you killed. Fortunately for your conscience, this is a video game. As such, since you don't care about all the people you murdered, I don't care about what you think qualifies as yours in the game.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. And moral people will treat it as such. If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft. So what your getting at is that CCP is inmoral because they implemented this feature. And that means you are freely giving money each month to immoral people which I believe in turn makes you immoral! Better go to church and confess your sins boy.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. [...] If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? 5/10
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:53:00 - [36] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII It's salvage you cant steal salvage thats why its called SALVAGE I suggest a study of maritime law on such matters. Yes, you can steal salvage. Keeping this from happening can be difficult to enforce which is why real world salvage corporations don't reveal locations of their prizes. If it is not in international waters, a claim makes it yours. Since all of high sec is the equivalent of nationspace (territorial waters) claims of ownership should be valid. In 0.0 (international waters) go nuts.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom RL comparisons
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Lt Angus So salvaging is immoral, gotcha No - STEALING is immoral. Salvaging has an entirely different definition if you look in the dictionary.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.31 21:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom RL comparisons ...Because internet spaceships r serious business! I didn't want to say it, honest I didn't.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:00:00 - [40] Edited by: Tippia on 31/07/2008 22:02:03 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I loathe that argument. Of course you do since it uses truth to completely knee-cap your whine. Quote: I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. Good thing, then, that in ≡v≡ profit is king, morals be damned. Quote: And moral people will treat it as such. And yet you don't feel bad about destroying all those ships and stealing from them? Quote: If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? Strawman and completely irrelevant. Quote: I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft. Good for you. Unfortunately, just saying it doesn't make it so. Quote: No - STEALING is immoral. Salvaging has an entirely different definition if you look in the dictionary. Exactly. Therefore salvaging isn't theft, and ninja salvagers aren't thieves.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Kahega Amielden If this were real life, then the loot/salvage would belong to the families of all the hundreds of thousands of people you killed. Fortunately for your conscience, this is a video game. As such, since you don't care about all the people you murdered, I don't care about what you think qualifies as yours in the game. What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So what your getting at is that CCP is inmoral because they implemented this feature. And that means you are freely giving money each month to immoral people which I believe in turn makes you immoral! Better go to church and confess your sins boy. Are you some kind of sociopath that you have so little understanding of morality and ethics? Leaving a door open (whether accidently or on purpose) is not immoral. Nor is it illegal. Going through said door and taking someone's money off the dresser IS immoral (and in most places quite illegal too). CCP left the door open, that's all. The ninja types are the ones sneaking through and stealing. Note that their own proud designation of 'ninja salvagers' makes clear their actual profession. Bad Hollywood kids movies aside, ninja were thieves, murderers and spies for hire without the morals or ethics to fill a thimble. Sizeable chip on their shoulders for being born eta though. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:08:00 - [43] Quote: What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing) And paid military agents in real life constantly find huge pockets of well-organized enemies inside secure national territory, right? Regardless, even if you had half a point and missions could be compared to real life, I wouldn't give a shit because this is a videogame.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:09:00 - [44] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Kahega Amielden If this were real life, then the loot/salvage would belong to the families of all the hundreds of thousands of people you killed. Fortunately for your conscience, this is a video game. As such, since you don't care about all the people you murdered, I don't care about what you think qualifies as yours in the game. What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. CCP decide what is legal. They have explicitly said that salvage belongs to the person who applies his skill and effort to the wreck, regardless of who created the wreck in the first place. I understand that you don't like that, but on the bright side, that's just too bad. So, was there anything else you wanted to talk about? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Are you some kind of sociopath that you have so little understanding of morality and ethics? Leaving a door open (whether accidently or on purpose) is not immoral. Nor is it illegal. Going through said door and taking someone's money off the dresser IS immoral (and in most places quite illegal too). CCP left the door open, that's all. The ninja types are the ones sneaking through and stealing. Note that their own proud designation of 'ninja salvagers' makes clear their actual profession. Bad Hollywood kids movies aside, ninja were thieves, murderers and spies for hire without the morals or ethics to fill a thimble. Sizeable chip on their shoulders for being born eta though. n00B
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom RL comparisons Yes - the basis from which all speculative fiction arises. Without them you get a completely incomprehensible mess. I'll refer you to Synnibar if you would like an example of what happens when they are discarded as entirely meaningless. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:16:00 - [47] Really, who needs salvage when you've got a High Horse(tm)? ___________________________________________
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 31/07/2008 22:02:03 Of course you do since it uses truth to completely knee-cap your whine. Really, how nice. Anyone who dares to express a dissenting point of view is 'whining'. The rest of this post deleted because it makes no counterarguments at all. Try some facts. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:18:00 - [49] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. Well, if that's how you want to play it… I see that you are a Gallente anarchist and terrorist. You are a threat to law and order and should by all rights be killed on sight for the atrocities you and your illegitimate government have committed. Any possessions stolen, appropriated or otherwise diverted from you and your criminal associates help weaken your immoral rampage across the galaxy, and any act towards this end is therfore inherently good. Any ninja salvagers that manage to keep you away from your ill-deserved gains should be rewarded ten-fold, and anyone killing you should be proclaimed a hero. Quote: The rest of this post deleted because it makes no counterarguments at all. Try some facts. It contained plenty of counter-arguments and facts – you just had no way of responding to them, so you chose to ignore them. Good job, terrorist.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 31/07/2008 22:18:45 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. As long as we're using RL instances If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home. Maybe CCP should implement this instead.
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:19:00 - [51] Edited by: Grim Mercy on 31/07/2008 22:24:15 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I loathe that argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking something that you have no (moral) right to, regardless of legality, is still theft morally. And moral people will treat it as such. If a government makes it legal to kill a certain racial, ethnic or religious group (as they have for milennia) does that make it right? It's most certainly legal - the government made a law saying it could be done. But does it make it right? I tend to think not, myself, which is why I consider salvage theft to be just that, theft. Originally by: Kahega Amielden If this were real life, then the loot/salvage would belong to the families of all the hundreds of thousands of people you killed. Fortunately for your conscience, this is a video game. As such, since you don't care about all the people you murdered, I don't care about what you think qualifies as yours in the game. What. Utter. Hogwash. If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates, rescuing kidnap victims, catching robbers, saboteurs, murderers and other slime it most certainly wouldn't be murder. Nor would it be immoral. You really need to try a LOT harder than that. That was lame. Ok, so one one hand, you say that even though a government sanctifies the killing of a particular group (be it ethnic, religious, etc.) it is still immoral... Aren't criminals technically a group? Aren't there only a handful of countries left in the world that still have a death penalty for said "group"? Then you say "If this were real life and I spent a lot of time working as a paid military agent for a lawful government destroying pirates..." Are you saying that it's right if you agree with it (those criminal scum!), but immoral if you disagree with it (aw, the poor indigenous peoples of...wherever)? Do you see what you did there? You just contradicted yourself. The argument wasn't a strawman either; it was rather revealing. And, by the way, CCP, the lawful government that sanctions the righteous killing of all that scum, says it's ok.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Kahega Amielden And paid military agents in real life constantly find huge pockets of well-organized enemies inside secure national territory, right? Columbia (FARC), Afghanistan (Taliban and Al Quaeda), Pakistan (same), Iraq (Al Quaeda in Iraq, the Mahdi Army and others), Mexico (various drug lord organizations often better armed than police or military) and that's not even touching the main part of Africa or the mess that's the region around Somalia. And even better - that's just some of what's going on right now. I could go on for dozens of pages were I to tap history. Quote: Regardless, even if you had half a point and missions could be compared to real life, I wouldn't give a shit because this is a videogame. Well then you shouldn't care about salvaging as you clearly don't care about anything as it's only a videogame right? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Malcanis CCP decide what is legal. They have explicitly said that salvage belongs to the person who applies his skill and effort to the wreck, regardless of who created the wreck in the first place. I understand that you don't like that, but on the bright side, that's just too bad. And like any government may be lobbied to change the laws. Which is what this is. Thank you for at least remaining civil though Malcanis. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Really, how nice. Anyone who dares to express a dissenting point of view is 'whining'. Given that what you're doing is complaining that someone has caused you to generate merely a shit- ton of Virtual Buxz in an hour rather than an entire ****ton of them, and furthermore framing it in absolute moral terms (complete with references to genocide for chrissakes); I'd have to say that under the circumstances to call you a 'whiner' is to cough up no small generosity. ___________________________________________
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Terranid Meester n00B Oh my god - the brilliance of your counterargument astonishes me! How can I possibly survive such spherical wit? Honestly - I think I'll no longer waste my time with the fools and restrict myself to intelligent discourse. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:28:00 - [56] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home. Not sure about the Marines, but the cops do it all the time. It's called "asset forfeiture". If you're growing cannabis in your home, not only will they break into your house and steal your cannabis, but they'll then try and take your home too. I call that theft.
Grim Mercy Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:29:00 - [57] Also- You may try to make the point that, since NPCs aren't real people, then the "murder" and "theft of their goods" doesn't really count because it's an intended way of making isk... Well, I have some news for you, the "real" person that is being "robbed": You (your character), the salvage, the isk, and all of it are just as real as those pirates... they're not! Everything in this game is intellectual property, owned by CCP. So, you aren't being robbed at all; your avatar is. Your avatar doesn't even belong to you. So, ninja-salvagers are stealing from...CCP! And CCP doesn't mind. You lose again.
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:33:00 - [58] EVE is a game. Do you get bent out of shape when someone gets to a weapon spawn before you in a FPS, or you get fragged? The items that you salvage don't really exist outside of the game. They are put there to be used as part of playing the game. A salvage thief is playing within the rules of the game as set forth by CCP. For the record, I run L4 missions all the time. I also salvage my missions. I have yet to have anyone warp in and salvage my wrecks. If it were to start happening with regularity, I would simply move to someplace less crowded.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:34:00 - [59] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich As long as we're using RL instances If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home. By all means, lets. Given that the capsuleers we are playing are not given the opportunity to work for the equivalent organization (The Caldari Navy, The Republic Fleet etc.) but are instead basically free lance mercenaries your analogy is a reasonable one. NPCs from the Republic Fleet may not claim salvage, the Minmatar Republic owns that. However mercenaries negotiate their own contracts and generally keep any damn thing they pick up on their actions that they feel they might want unless it's specifically part of their contract otherwise. So it makes perfect sense for mercenary contractors to be able to claim such things as salvage as their own (precisely as they do with the 'other' salvage - that being modules etc.) May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:35:00 - [60] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Micheal Dietrich If you were working as a paid military agent then the military/government that your working for would have salvage rights. Seriously, how many marines do you see go around blowing up tanks then taking the remains home. Not sure about the Marines, but the cops do it all the time. It's called "asset forfeiture". If you're growing cannabis in your home, not only will they break into your house and steal your cannabis, but they'll then try and take your home too. I call that theft. …which proves his point further: it's not the officers that take your stuff – it's the law enforcement system as a whole. Following this line of logic would mean that mission salvage should be the property of the faction you're working for, and that keeping it and selling it would mean you're stealing from your employer.

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