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Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:20:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 01/08/2008 19:16:14
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
tiny minority of the population (i.e., you).
CCP does not have to address this because, thus far, it is a non-problem.
first part -tiny minority? (i.e.: NOT you?). citation? mission runners are a tiny minority?
"Mission runners" aren't the valid set here. The valid population set is "People who think ninja-salvaging is a game breaking problem". It really only takes a cursory glance at this thread to see that it's a minority.
Quote:
second part - your personal opinion
how is your response any more valid than the complaint?
the case hasn't been made to your own personal satisfaction so its obviously not a problem anyone else should consider?
The onus to "make their case" falls on the person asking for something to be changed.
Quote:
can i just start defining standards for waht is or isn't a problem off the top of my head?
What I listed is a pretty obvious standard for "problem" in an MMO. One whiny little ***** complaining about something does not make something a problem.
The OP went so far as to imply that this "problem" will lead to some imminent collapse of the Eve economy  which, to anyone who actually plays this game, is pretty ****in' laughable.
It should be noted that no one besides the OP has even TRIED to make the case that this is a problem in the sense that it's bad for the game and should be changed. The arguments have solely revolved around morality, which is quite obviously a non-relevant factor in a world where blowing each other up is a perfectly legitimate playstyle. Morality has obviously not been a factor in CCP's design policy thus far - they're not going to make an exception for this. If someone can show that it's actually bad for the game, that would be a different story, but so far no one has even tried.
you assume only the people in this thread (out of all of them) are the ones that represent all the people that feel this way?
thats a pretty sweeping generalization
as for the OP being super weak, i'll give you that.
btw, here is the case your looking for:
its a pvp game. combat flagging will only bring good things (moar combat)
ppl that whine about it and are idiots? well, they will get their pretty little mission ship baited and destroyed after aggroing a salvager.
there is no reason NOT to have the flagging. it's kind of stupid its the only mechanic in this game where you can flat out take something out of nothing, that is profitable, and have nearly ZERO risk involved unless your suicided (especially if salvager is in an NPC corp).
there is the risk that a NPC might shoot your 700k ship, but the risk vs reward is definitely was skewed, as atleast the missioner is risking 100mil on the field (as unlikely for him to die as it is)
good 'nuf?
"one more spam thread will get you a warning.
- Thanks Hutch. "
isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'?
my head hurts |
Gatu
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:49:00 -
[122]
Salvage was implemented to be a profession. Thats why they added a certain level of skill requirements to carry it out, and thats why they have specifically not enabled pvp flagging of salvagers. I can't believe for a moment that this was intended to serve as yet more bonus isk for mission runners on top of the loot, LP, SP, bounties, and mission reward isk they already receive.
Salvaging is a bit like mining. You locate junk floating in space, apply a learned skill and a specialized high-slot mod, and gain some stuff with which other stuff can be made. How the junk got there is of no concern.
There is no more ethical dilemma in salvaging a wreck that you intend to salvage than there is in mining the same asteroid you intend to mine. To him who cycles first go the spoils.
If you care to take some action that would increase your chances of salvaging a given set of wrecks, there are plenty of options at your disposal. Personally I think the most effective option is to avoid being scanned down by a salvager in the first place. I could give a number of pointers on how to achieve this goal, but that would take all the fun out of it.
In sum, Eve is a multiplayer pvp internet spaceship game. I encourage you to start playing it as it is currently implemented or save us all the trouble of reading this horsecrap, and find a nice single player game to play instead.
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Laila Eldgorn
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.01 20:50:00 -
[123]
Salvage thieves are only problem for newbies. Older players know how to handle thieves or just don't care. Or just... don't do... missions... at all... -.- gawd.
However, in my opinion salvaging a killed npc is a same thing than looting a wreck (how it is different in uh oh... roleplaying aspect? I think it's same thing except salvaging needs salvager I...) so if you salvage a wreck which isn't "yours" you should be flagged. Thing that you got to loot/salvage (n+1)^2-k ships to make money out of missioning is kind of stupid though.
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Mire Stoude
Cash Money Brothers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:13:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Estel Arador
If mission runners move to other areas lag will be reduced in the mission hubs!
The problem is that there are not many good quality high sec agents. I did missions for a negative quality agent for a long time, then found a quality level 10+ and the change of LP rewards is huge. It makes the idea of going back to a lower quality agent very distasteful.
One suggestion I heard a while back that I liked was agent quality that dynamically changed at every downtime based on the number of missions run for that agent. If a high amount of missions were run for that quality then the quality level would decrease. If fewer missions were run it would increase.
This would spread out mission runners all over. It would also make nearly every low sec agent a quality 20 over time. Which would increase rewards to the players who take the most risk and run missions in low sec. It would also be a nice reward for people who ground missions for non-mainstream NPC corps.
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Grim Mercy
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:31:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Mire Stoude
Originally by: Estel Arador
If mission runners move to other areas lag will be reduced in the mission hubs!
The problem is that there are not many good quality high sec agents. I did missions for a negative quality agent for a long time, then found a quality level 10+ and the change of LP rewards is huge. It makes the idea of going back to a lower quality agent very distasteful.
One suggestion I heard a while back that I liked was agent quality that dynamically changed at every downtime based on the number of missions run for that agent. If a high amount of missions were run for that quality then the quality level would decrease. If fewer missions were run it would increase.
This would spread out mission runners all over. It would also make nearly every low sec agent a quality 20 over time. Which would increase rewards to the players who take the most risk and run missions in low sec. It would also be a nice reward for people who ground missions for non-mainstream NPC corps.
If you mission in low-sec, you have do get an alt/friend to negotiate the gates... but you're immune from salvage thiefs, granted they are working alone and in smaller ships than you.
Maybe we should all for a sort of company or squadron and run missions together... kind of like a business, or possibly an LLC.
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Dzajic
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.01 21:44:00 -
[126]
Ok, if older players dont do missions at all. How the frell do they fund their PVP and stuffzorz? They mine? Ratting in 0.0 usualy means you are a member of a corp in a teritory holding alliance, or its even more dangerous then quite unprofitable low sec ratting.
In low sec I will find couple -5s in system within 15-20 minutes of entering it, even in most backwater systems in low sec that show least possible activity in region. NPC 0.0 is a bublecamp waiting just for you?
So, how in end, does one get ISK other than missioning in empire or rating/plexing in friendly territory? Piracy?
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:49:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Mire Stoude
Originally by: Estel Arador
If mission runners move to other areas lag will be reduced in the mission hubs!
The problem is that there are not many good quality high sec agents. I did missions for a negative quality agent for a long time, then found a quality level 10+ and the change of LP rewards is huge. It makes the idea of going back to a lower quality agent very distasteful.
One suggestion I heard a while back that I liked was agent quality that dynamically changed at every downtime based on the number of missions run for that agent. If a high amount of missions were run for that quality then the quality level would decrease. If fewer missions were run it would increase.
This would spread out mission runners all over. It would also make nearly every low sec agent a quality 20 over time. Which would increase rewards to the players who take the most risk and run missions in low sec. It would also be a nice reward for people who ground missions for non-mainstream NPC corps.
One advantage of this idea is that it would make mission runners suddenly really hostile to farmers....
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.01 22:52:00 -
[128]
Quote:
Then have CCP turn on pvp flagging for salvaging ANY wreck - so you can quickly settle your differences with anyone trying to salvage what you're trying to salvage.
This.
Everyones always pimping PvP, moar splosions = better then.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:04:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Dzajic
Ok, if older players dont do missions at all. How the frell do they fund their PVP and stuffzorz? They mine? Ratting in 0.0 usualy means you are a member of a corp in a teritory holding alliance, or its even more dangerous then quite unprofitable low sec ratting.
In low sec I will find couple -5s in system within 15-20 minutes of entering it, even in most backwater systems in low sec that show least possible activity in region. NPC 0.0 is a bublecamp waiting just for you?
So, how in end, does one get ISK other than missioning in empire or rating/plexing in friendly territory? Piracy?
0.0 ratting is often as secure as high-sec, especially if you are in alliance territory. Furthermore, it's far more profitable.
There's also pirate faction missions and 10/10 complexes. Money making in 0.0 is simple, easy, and can quickly fund large corporations' massive wars.
Make friends, go to 0.0 using a jump clone and make a bank of change in a few hours.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Major Sprawl
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:22:00 -
[130]
Guess i have to spell it out for those who have no grasp on MMO's,their history,and what happens to ALL MMO's when there is an unbalanced aspect I.E anything Surrender Monkey said.
Exploitation by some who only use a game for real income.
A Del'vs worst nightmare.
A menace to gamers in every MMORGP in the known world.
A body of person's ruining the economy of a MMO
Ahh im starting to see a few light bulbs out there(keep up monkey boy ill explain)
I been in 0.0 the past few month's and came up for some business in Empire(lp/salvage etc)and saw more than normal scanning/mission Raiding going on.Then i noticed the dreaded xX***Xx or oO***Oo names in my missions or the names with 4 or more consonants in a row.Any seasoned MMO'er knows thats not just players alts. So you see monkeywrench YES a portion(not an eminent collapse lol) of an economy can suffer when farmers hit that portion.In many ways.
I have and know most in Empire has heard the griping from mission runners like"get outta my mission man!")So im hardly in a minortity when we hear this every day 3-4x a day.
If they get a foothold in this portion of EVE YOU wont be able to scann/salvage mission runners salvage fast enough.They know how to Eploit.Its what they do.Its all they do.They do it well...better than you.Sometimes in teams if they feel threatened.
Like i said my complaint is that Noobs with minimal skills can enter anyones mission and "take" what they wish.I am finished with this thread since CCP must be reading it now that its 29k pages long thnx to all.
CCP Must deal with this issue
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Joe Starbreaker
AnTi.
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.08.02 23:40:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Maybe we should all for a sort of company or squadron and run missions together... kind of like a business, or possibly an LLC.
You might even call it a "corporation"
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
All piracy is built upon honoring one's word.
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Yelan Zhou
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.02 23:42:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Grim Mercy
Maybe we should all for a sort of company or squadron and run missions together... kind of like a business, or possibly an LLC.
You might even call it a "corporation"
They could have unique names and logos.Heck, it would be awesome if they could have their own spacebase.
War, War never changes.
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DogSlime
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.02 23:55:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Major Sprawl
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CCP Must deal with this issue
No, there is no "must" here. If CCP choose to make salvage "theft" into an event that causes the offender to be flagged agaist the mission runner, then fair enough, but it shouldn't go any further than that (and they shouldn't do that either, in my opinion).
The fact that someone can invade my mission and take the loot/salvage means that even when I am running missions solo (which is most of the time), I still feel like I am in a MULTIPLAYER environment, where other PLAYERS might show up and cause mischief.
if CCP "deal" with this issue - and my guess is that you want them to make salvage/loot theft impossible, then solo mission running becomes an entirely SINGLE PLAYER game where no-one can interfere. That's too World of Warcraft for me.
I have never stolen from anyone else's mission. If someone "steals" from my mission then that's all part of the game. As long as they don't wreck the mission by taking/destroying the objective, then it's my choice how I deal with them if they get flagged.
Flagging salvage "theft" so that the mission runner can attack the "thief" if they so choose is as far as CCP should go on this one. Anything more than that, and you're losing part of what makes Eve what it is. |
Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.03 10:28:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Major Sprawl
I been in 0.0 the past few month's and came up for some business in Empire(lp/salvage etc)and saw more than normal scanning/mission Raiding going on.Then i noticed the dreaded xX***Xx or oO***Oo names in my missions or the names with 4 or more consonants in a row.Any seasoned MMO'er knows thats not just players alts.
…except, of course that that's exactly what they are. Salvage theft is far too random and time-consuming to be worth farming. What you're seeing are people who read all these "omgz, they stole my vast fortunes" whines and think "hey, I should try that – it sounds fun" and who then go off to annoy mission runners. If they stopped drawing attention to themselves and making themselves such easy targets, things would be a lot quieter.
Quote:
I have and know most in Empire has heard the griping from mission runners like"get outta my mission man!")So im hardly in a minortity when we hear this every day 3-4x a day.
If you hear it four times a day, then you're in a mission hub. That means several hundreds of mission runners doing missions non-stop. That's where the vast amount of ninja salvaging goes on because that's where their "prey" is, and that's why the common counter to this whine is "pick another system".
Also, if you only see four a day in such a crowded system, then it's not even close to being the kind of game-breaking problem you're trying to make it out to be. Sounds like we're looking at a one permil chance of mission invasion in the areas where the chances ar ethe highest. Personally, in my out-of-the-way system, I see maybe one such complaint a week.
Quote:
Like i said my complaint is that Noobs with minimal skills can enter anyones mission and "take" what they wish.
Except, of course, that the skills required to do this at a large scale requires quite a lot of skills, and that they can't take what they wish.
Quote:
CCP Must deal with this issue
Not only is it not an issue, but CCP has already dealt with it by stating, time and time again, that it's completely legal and intended.
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Mordred Shadow
Battle Logistics and Mining Inc
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.04 02:39:00 -
[135]
I've already responded in this thread saying I don't mind salvage theft, but I had another thought. The fact is that salvage and loot are essentially the same thing, it is only us who call them different names and see them in a different light.
If I was to salvage a yacht wreck on some rocks in real life, it wouldn't matter whether I took the outboard motor, rigging, gps, bilge pump or a set of sails, it would all be salvage. The fact that this game seperates interface circuits from shield extenders is just because one was released in the game long before the other. I would love it if you needed a salvager to access the components within the wreck, and inside were loot, ammo and salvage components - much like code breaking and analyzing does at the moment.
Why do we give different rules for different size components from a wrecked ship? Surely capacitor consoles (salvage) are the same as capacitor power relays (loot).
What are your thoughts on this?
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