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Black Ops battleships - some suggestoins

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Cyaron wars D00M. Northern Coalition. 6	Posted - 2012.03.20 08:08:00 - [1] - Quote Hello, Don't want to be a smartass but I think BO need some buff. Would be nice to give every single Black Ops battleship it's racial ewar bonuses like Widow has it. - Redeemer: Bonus to NOS/Neut range and cap drain amount - Panther: Web range - Sin: Point range I would also remove cloak velocity bonus, kinda useless and would replace it with cargo/fuel bay size since it is really small. jump range on those ships is kinda crappy as well.
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 719	Posted - 2012.03.20 08:38:00 - [2] - Quote ^^^ Been in on some black ops myself lately, and it sure makes things interesting, having one or two blops and any number of Sbs/recons/T3's along. I think the short jump range makes people think about tactics first before looking from system to system to find targets. The obligatory blockade runner filled with fuel is annoying though, especially when the blops has to refuel after nearly every single jump. I love the e-war suggestions! The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why?
Crellion Parental Control HELL4S 0	Posted - 2012.03.20 08:54:00 - [3] - Quote Suggestions that increase the use of these vessels see are needed. Being able to tackle from range with two of these seems in line with hit and run doctrine of endangering such a haxspensive ship in behind the lines work. However although I have them trained for close to 4 years now (I think) I have never had the chance to use them a lot so I am waiting to hear what users and their victims thus far have to say...
ChromeStriker The Riot Formation 79	Posted - 2012.03.20 09:01:00 - [4] - Quote Cyaron wars wrote: Hello, Don't want to be a smartass but I think BO need some buff. Would be nice to give every single Black Ops battleship it's racial ewar bonuses like Widow has it. - Redeemer: Bonus to NOS/Neut range and cap drain amount - Panther: Web range - Sin: Point range I would also remove cloak velocity bonus, kinda useless and would replace it with cargo/fuel bay size since it is really small. jump range on those ships is kinda crappy as well. You are not the first to think this, or say it, or make a thread. look around n you will find this dajavoo in the making - Nulla Curas
Tobiaz Spacerats 28	Posted - 2012.03.20 14:12:00 - [5] - Quote Cov-ops, Stealth-Bomber, Recon and Blockade-Runner, all those can make use of the Black-Ops special jump-bridge? http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures!
Cyaron wars D00M. Northern Coalition. 6	Posted - 2012.03.20 20:42:00 - [6] - Quote T3 are bugged to fu.ck. Jumping any T3 hull leads to no fuel in bay, T3 ships need damn fix and it should be done asap. Despite being cruiser size it takes nearly same ammount of fuel as danm battleship, that's why I didn't mention T3 in my thread. As for any other recons: you are right, but I find use of cloaky hauler useless. you will be unable to find dedicated person that will fly that ship for u and dualboxing should not be considered as an option by CCP at all.
OfBalance Caldari State 200	Posted - 2012.03.20 20:44:00 - [7] - Quote Cyaron wars wrote: dualboxing should not be considered as an option by CCP at all. If only.
M1k3y Koontz Taxes Suck Inc. 23	Posted - 2012.03.20 23:06:00 - [8] - Quote OfBalance wrote: Cyaron wars wrote: dualboxing should not be considered as an option by CCP at all. If only. ^ Yup... As for the BLOPs, things I keep hearing is more range less fuel use. While I like the EWar bonus, wouldn't a recon work better? How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
mxzf Shovel Bros 1014	Posted - 2012.03.20 23:58:00 - [9] - Quote Yeah, from what I've seen, the numbers I've looked at, and what I've heard I think the biggest things the BlOps need is more jump range and either a larger fuel bay or lower fuel consumption (especially for bridging). More changes might be needed afterwards, but I think those two changes to begin with would let the BlOps see much more use. As-is, their jump range is pitiful at best (4.5LY with JDC 5, compared to 5+ LY for any other jump-capable ship, except a Titan, with JDC 0) and their fuel consumption is painful given the limited room for more fuel.
Kaikka Carel White syndicate BattleStar Alliance 12	Posted - 2012.03.21 03:00:00 - [10] - Quote But you bring a force recon with you...
Trinkets friend Obstergo NEM3SIS. 226	Posted - 2012.03.21 03:24:00 - [11] - Quote I'm not sure whether the reason your T3 is taking too much fuel is because it's armour plated? Also, you shouldn't jump with your MWD or AB on. I don't think giving the BLOPs some T2 EWAR bonus is too much, or will make bringing a recon obsolete. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
Cyaron wars D00M. Northern Coalition. 6	Posted - 2012.03.21 06:27:00 - [12] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: I'm not sure whether the reason your T3 is taking too much fuel is because it's armour plated? Also, you shouldn't jump with your MWD or AB on. I don't think giving the BLOPs some T2 EWAR bonus is too much, or will make bringing a recon obsolete. I've tried it myself on Sisi. I bridged unfitted T3 hull that nearly depleted my fuel bay. As for recons and Ewar bonuses - I just find unfair that only 1 of 3 BO has some Ewar bonuses, also not all recons are perfect with their bonuses. Compare pilgrim vs Curse, then check rapier vs huggin and so on. you will notice that pilgrim is only ship that has 1 bonus missing apart from his brother. no other recons should have same thing. Fuel consumption vs Fuel bay size is kinda ******** and really needs to be adjusted.
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords 158	Posted - 2012.03.21 07:17:00 - [13] - Quote T3's have the mass of the hull, modules, cargo, and subsystems. This shouldn't make them bigger than a cruisers (doesn't seem to effect propulsion mods) but its the only difference that makes sense. Weather its bringing BLOPS Ewar ability's up to recons, improving there jump capability's, or finding a new role for them One thing is for shure they need real T2 resist. They have just 10% to one type that is the absolute lowest of all combat T2 hulls, that's f*ing pathetic for f*s sake CCP look at the hull for 20 min's god dammit! P.S. I like the cloak speed multiplier, its like the MWD/cloak trick built in. But it needs some thing to help it be a surprise, my idea....13AU warp speed. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do.
Soldarius United Highsec Front The 99 Percent 180	Posted - 2012.03.21 07:21:00 - [14] - Quote I had no idea about the T3 issue. Glad someone thought to post it. I find the cloaked velocity bonus useful. It allows for a full speed align while cloaked, followed by what others see as an insta-warp. However, I'm sure some other bonus could be better utilized. Perhaps a jump fuel reduction bonus? I'm not too worried about the jump range. I never really considered the blops to be a distance traveller. But the fuel useage really needs to be adjusted. As for the overall role of the ships, I too find it strange that only the Widow has EWAR bonuses. Blops in general suffer from lack of a clearly defined role other than covert bridging. If they were supposed to be combat ships, you would think they would all have T2 resists. But they don't. If they were to be support ships, that would have those EWAR bonuses. But only the Widow has them. If they are meant to fly with the covert ships, they would be able to fit a covert ops cloak. But they can't. I iz confuzzled. "How do you kill that which has no life?"
Rel'k Bloodlor Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords 158	Posted - 2012.03.21 10:08:00 - [15] - Quote I would love to see the roll expaned apon and split between 2 hulls like the rest of its tree. Still can't deside weather it would be better to be like cov ops or recon or a whole new tool set for cloak hulls. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do.
Cyaron wars D00M. Northern Coalition. 6	Posted - 2012.03.21 11:10:00 - [16] - Quote I thing is clear here - those ships have to be tweaked. Role to be defined and bonuses adjusted accordingly.
WARBRO Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 4	Posted - 2012.03.21 15:40:00 - [17] - Quote Headerman wrote: ^^^ Been in on some black ops myself lately, and it sure makes things interesting, having one or two blops and any number of Sbs/recons/T3's along. I think the short jump range makes people think about tactics first before looking from system to system to find targets. The obligatory blockade runner filled with fuel is annoying though, especially when the blops has to refuel after nearly every single jump. I love the e-war suggestions! Screw the blockade runner full of fuel. I had a bridge only black ops ship with cargo rigs and expanders (on a panther) and I could hold enough fuel for numerous jumps. Obviously I didn't get in on the fighting, but I was able to bridge a few groups out one right after another and have enough fuel for the jump back home. I also had room for a few spare bombs.
Aero089 Exiled. The Kadeshi 0	Posted - 2012.03.21 17:03:00 - [18] - Quote I agree with most of this. I don't mind the ship's offensive abilities if anything, but for the love of god fix the fuel.
T'san Manaan Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy 18	Posted - 2012.03.21 18:31:00 - [19] - Quote I've never used a black ops before so I'm just throwing this out but maybe keep the current bonuses and add a the ability to fit 2 warfare links to make them kind of a black ops command ship. with the ability to fit the links and either no bonus or a minimal bonus to their use it would replace command ships but might add some depth to the fleet the BLOPS is leading. Or another crazy Idea is a Logistics bonus, again not on par with a dedicated Logi but enough to make it useful.
Bibosikus Inside out. The G0dfathers 45	Posted - 2012.03.21 19:16:00 - [20] - Quote I've always thought the main issue with Blops is the racial requirements. CCP had a great idea, but made the mistake of trying to divide it into four. They ended up with a quartet of crud instead of one hull doing a specifically designed job well. The Noctis and Orca are good examples of a defined role being given to one ship. The same for Blops would be great - although the reassigning & balancing of skill requirements would probably be a nightmare The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux.
VaMei Meafi Corp 102	Posted - 2012.03.21 19:25:00 - [21] - Quote Rel'k Bloodlor wrote: ...it needs some thing to help it be a surprise Nerfing local would be the biggest possible buff to Blops. No gate fire to warn your targets that bad guys are here, no local spike, just the insta-point of an SB de-cloaking on top of you while the rest of the squad drops out of warp. With no other buffs, they'd go from being the least used class to causing more QQs than Falcon ever did. If/when that happens, I'll be more than happy to bring my Viator along just to witness the carnage.
Cyc Lilith AREA 43 Sev3rance 0	Posted - 2012.03.21 20:10:00 - [22] - Quote I like the command Link Idea for my Sin.. atm its just a kind of a giant Curse... on the other Hand u need a couple millions of SP more to use it right BTW i will never miss the stealthspeedbonus - as long as the BO dont get the ability to warp cloaked - this ship is just to expensive to hope at every gate that u dont screw up the MWD/Cloak-Trick
Aero089 Exiled. The Kadeshi 0	Posted - 2012.03.21 22:30:00 - [23] - Quote VaMei wrote: Rel'k Bloodlor wrote: ...it needs some thing to help it be a surprise Nerfing local would be the biggest possible buff to Blops. No gate fire to warn your targets that bad guys are here, no local spike, just the insta-point of an SB de-cloaking on top of you while the rest of the squad drops out of warp. With no other buffs, they'd go from being the least used class to causing more QQs than Falcon ever did. If/when that happens, I'll be more than happy to bring my Viator along just to witness the carnage. So without local to tip you off, what's the difference between one guy uncloaking, scrambling and bridging the rest in, as opposed to just getting a gang on you?
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 888	Posted - 2012.03.21 23:01:00 - [24] - Quote Cyaron wars wrote: I just find unfair that only 1 of 3 BO has some Ewar bonuses You meant 1 or the 4...right? I agree that Sin shouldn't even be considered as Black Ops but as a matter of fact, it is one.
Gabriel Karade Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 12	Posted - 2012.03.21 23:10:00 - [25] - Quote I'm actually rather partial to my Sin (more jump range and lower build cost would however, be splendid) Oh and no need for 'MWD-cloak' - the velocity bonus and (in the Sin's case) agility bonus make for exceptionally quick align->warp out Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Wacktopia Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 211	Posted - 2012.03.22 01:45:00 - [26] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: OfBalance wrote: Cyaron wars wrote: dualboxing should not be considered as an option by CCP at all. If only. ^ Yup... As for the BLOPs, things I keep hearing is more range less fuel use. While I like the EWar bonus, wouldn't a recon work better? This. Not sure how useful a point range on a Sin would be given the BO is not the one getting the tackle most of the time... Vote Alekseyev Karrde for CSM7. -áhttp://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=433 Get War Decs, Sov, Low Sec that works.-á
VaMei Meafi Corp 102	Posted - 2012.03.22 02:59:00 - [27] - Quote Aero089 wrote: VaMei wrote: Nerfing local would be the biggest possible buff to Blops. So without local to tip you off, what's the difference between one guy uncloaking, scrambling and bridging the rest in, as opposed to just getting a gang on you? Without local, a conventional force still needs to pass through gates to get where they want to go unless they're bridged in by a titan. Even if they don't run into gatecamps, just the gatefire will warn the enemy to beware. Without local as an intel tool, a Blops gang would have the ability to be anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere at the same time. Gatecamps and gatewatchers would mean nothing. Sov 0.0 would be just like WH space, except that your enemy knows where you live and how to get to you any time they please. They only need one or more CovOps pilots to run the gauntlet of gate camps. Once the Pathfinders are in place, any number of Blops gangs can bridge past gate camps, and jump at will through the underbelly of the enemy, without raising any alarms. Once the fun is over, or the gang needs to regroup, the Blops gang can bridge back out without the enemy ever knowing that it's safe to get back to carebearing. In a major operation, with blops planted from base to target(s) and BRs along the bridge to resupply, the gangs could continuously bridge in reinforcements, hit multiple targets simultaniously, focus, disperse, or withdraw at will. The only limit to how many places you can choose to be is the number of CovOps pilot you have planted. The only clue the enemy would have to where you are is the loss mails rolling in, and the only way to fight back would be to chase the ghosts you let him see. Blops gangs have most of that ability today, but the enemy knows you have a scout in system, they know your exact player count as soon as you bridge in, they know the moment you leave, and assuming they have eyes on their space they know where you went and by what path. I don't claim that Eve would be improved by this kind of guerilla warfare, but it would certainly change the face of the game.
Aero089 Exiled. The Kadeshi 0	Posted - 2012.03.22 18:37:00 - [28] - Quote VaMei wrote: [quote=Aero089][quote=VaMei]Stuff. When you're on a gate and Black Ops jump in, you wait for them to aggress and jump out? Even then, removing local isn't going to help black ops at all. You'll -want- them to think you're a lone Recon looking for a cheap kill. The point of this thread however is the insane amount of fuel required to jump a gang in. In its current form, you're not going to be "Anywhere, everywhere and nowhere at once" because you simply don't have the fuel to make multiple jumps, unless you bring a cloaked hauler with you. For the manpower required to pull this off, and the skill intensivity to produce the cynos and the jump bridge, and the price of the ship...well, it's crap.
VaMei Meafi Corp 104	Posted - 2012.03.22 20:14:00 - [29] - Quote Aero089 wrote: VaMei wrote: Stuff. When you're on a gate and Black Ops jump in, you wait for them to aggress and jump out? The point isn't to gank the gatecampers, it's to completely bypass the gate camps and get to the farmers deep in 'safe' space without raising any alarms. Aero089 wrote: For the manpower required to pull this off, and the skill intensivity to produce the cynos and the jump bridge, and the price of the ship...well, it's crap. For the small corps running around low-sec in T1 BCs, what I described may sound insane. I'm talking about guerrilla warfare among the Null-sec super powers; an environment where today alliances field 100+ super caps and 1,000+ players in a single battle. The manpower and skill intensity to do what I described is not that much of a stretch. The skills for a cap pilot to cross train into a Blops are trivial. The ship itself is less costly than a carrier, and when used as a node on a bridge network it's more survivable than a fleet carrier. Cyno alts flying a CovOps are a dime a dozen. Show me a Super pilot that doesn't already have one or more, and I'll show you a pilot that doesn't do much. If anything, I'd expect the real limiter to be the number of competent SB pilots you can field.
Aero089 Exiled. The Kadeshi 0	Posted - 2012.03.24 16:29:00 - [30] - Quote VaMei wrote: Aero089 wrote: VaMei wrote: Stuff. When you're on a gate and Black Ops jump in, you wait for them to aggress and jump out? The point isn't to gank the gatecampers, it's to completely bypass the gate camps and get to the farmers deep in 'safe' space without raising any alarms. Aero089 wrote: For the manpower required to pull this off, and the skill intensivity to produce the cynos and the jump bridge, and the price of the ship...well, it's crap. For the small corps running around low-sec in T1 BCs, what I described may sound insane. I'm talking about guerrilla warfare among the Null-sec super powers; an environment where today alliances field 100+ super caps and 1,000+ players in a single battle. The manpower and skill intensity to do what I described is not that much of a stretch. The skills for a cap pilot to cross train into a Blops are trivial. The ship itself is less costly than a carrier, and when used as a node on a bridge network it's more survivable than a fleet carrier. Cyno alts flying a CovOps are a dime a dozen. Show me a Super pilot that doesn't already have one or more, and I'll show you a pilot that doesn't do much. If anything, I'd expect the real limiter to be the number of competent SB pilots you can field. I'm not even going to argue with you, you don't even know the difference between a covert cynosural field and a covert ops with a regular cyno. I'll give you a hint: Cynosural Field Theory V. Nobody in their right mind trains a month for this, and definitely no ordinary grunt.
Bibosikus Inside out. The G0dfathers 48	Posted - 2012.03.24 16:42:00 - [31] - Quote Aero089 wrote: I'm not even going to argue with you, you don't even know the difference between a covert cynosural field and a covert ops with a regular cyno. I'll give you a hint: Cynosural Field Theory V. Nobody in their right mind trains a month for this, and definitely no ordinary grunt. You're right - but to be fair, nobody trains it because Blops are so shite which is the subject of the thread. If local was indeed removed (radical but fabulous idea) L5 Cyno Theory would be number one on a lot of alt's skill queues the next day. The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux.
Noisrevbus 109	Posted - 2012.03.24 22:36:00 - [32] - Quote There are only two real problems with Black Ops, everything else is as per usual: people wanting the ships to do specific things for their own playstyle. What define the reality of a problem? - When it has negative repercussions that hamper their use and role in it's existing or intended environment. Black Ops have two of these: Fitting: any form of sensible fit on them make faction mods nigh mandatory, that mean additional expenses are necessary. It's an expensive ship, it's not impossible to do - but it shouldn't be required, that's too discouraging to the average player. Consumption: the balance between fuel-consumption of bridgable ships is completely out of whack, leading to a restrictive and stale use of Black Ops. Bombers and Covops cost so much less to bridge than a Recon, Covhauler or Stratcruiser that using these gangs flexibly and inventively is too discouraged by mechanical demands on logistics and cost. Once again, it's possible to do - but it's too discouraging to the average player. Fix those two things and you will begin to see them used more. They are meant to be dropable and bridgable low-tier Battleships, and they already are just that - assuming you can cover fitting issues through expensive mods (eg., EANM won't fit, go expensive ANP), and organize effective logistics (towing haulers around is fine by me, but even a hauler isn't enough if you aim to roam a bit and drop more than once or twice outside of restocking reach of friendly or neutral space). Those are the only issues that are detrimental to their use, as is. Everything else are things you want, not necessarily things the ships need. I've used this comparison before: a Recon is not necessarily a better pure combat ship than a low tier tech one Cruiser. Take the cloak and EW away and their sheer tank, damage and mobility is not cathegorically better. The same goes for Black Ops, they have their bonuses and are built around them - past that their damage potential, tank and so on are quite inline. That could be tweaked, of course, but it's not class-breaking. Savour this moment, it's one of the few times you'll see me argue for accessability .
Katalci Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp 45	Posted - 2012.03.24 22:43:00 - [33] - Quote All of the ideas in this thread are terrible, other than removing instant local and reducing fuel usage. Range is fine, bonuses are fine (bring a recon), HP and resistances are fine for the role, and fitting is fine since you don't need any fitting mods for a decent setup, only faction.
Noisrevbus 109	Posted - 2012.03.24 22:47:00 - [34] - Quote Katalci wrote: only faction.
Katalci Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp 45	Posted - 2012.03.25 13:22:00 - [35] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Katalci wrote: only faction. Oh no, I have to spend money on my 600M-hull tech 2 battleship. If you the faction mods necessary to fit a blops properly are too expensive for you, then you shouldn't be flying it.
Noisrevbus 109	Posted - 2012.03.25 16:50:00 - [36] - Quote Katalci wrote: Oh no, I have to spend money on my 600M-hull tech 2 battleship. If you the faction mods necessary to fit a blops properly are too expensive for you, then you shouldn't be flying it.
Ahz Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.03.27 06:19:00 - [37] - Quote What's it been, three years now and people are still complaining about these ships? Some people have been able to press them into service but I've seen very few implementations that aren't more fun with just a fleet of stealth bombers or recons. And I could've sworn that I heard one of the devs at Fanfest talking about a "jump module." CCP seems content with just letting the Black Ops just sit there and gather dust.
Aero089 Exiled. The Kadeshi 0	Posted - 2012.04.18 19:07:00 - [38] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Katalci wrote: Oh no, I have to spend money on my 600M-hull tech 2 battleship. If you the faction mods necessary to fit a blops properly are too expensive for you, then you shouldn't be flying it.

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