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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.05 20:54:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Spartan dax Oh please! The Rook is horribly bipolar, Long range jamming coupled with medium range missiles? It's the Rook that needs changing to make people prefer it over the Falcon. Drop the stupid range bonus on it, move a mid to a low and give it some speed/damage/agility/drone bay or something instead. In fact, make it a bigger kitsune with teeth. That is the way to get people into rooks.
Er, I'm pretty sure people don't hop into falcons or rooks to do dps. The launchers are there primarily for self-defense I'd think.
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128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 11:03:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ivyg
Originally by: 128th ABC123 Edited by: 128th ABC123 on 05/08/2008 14:31:41 Seriously.. shut up and .. falcons overpowered??? You are a lousy pvp-er if you cant deal with them. We use them and get them used against us all the times. Know your enemy, know what he will bring to the table etc.
We use Eos CS in our gangs to boost gang resists against e-war for instance. We have a seperate squad of nanos that have a sole purpose to burn out to any enemy falcons in the fight to force them to either leave or kill them.
Addapt...
Ps. Nerf speed vs missiles.
EXACTLY! now you get it! You have to have an EOS in your gang or nano ships...oh wait, no more nano now tho... so what can you do about those falcons?
How about every ship in the fleet fit ECCM or remote sensor boosters? No, can't really do that because they dont work well enough.... hmmm.
Guess we will just have to bring Falcons too and hope that ours lock faster and get a jam on their Falcons before they jam ours...
It is pointless really if the only real counter for a specific ship class is to bring more of those specfici ships on your side.
NERF FALCONS!
ECCM and Remote ECCM, use it! its just as critical as having a tank on your ship!!! Its just as critical as having a MWD! Its Critical!
Go with the game and embrace it in all its diverseness... Make sure your falcon/kitsune pilots have trained their longrange jamming skills and fit a sensor booster, so that they can lock first or furthest. Make sure you have bookmarks around the gates of the conflict area, falcons can warp out and warp back in and change the whole tide in a fight..
Mind you, I lost a fight against -A- with one of our gangs, because their falcon pilot had longer range and had bookmarks so when i did get a jam on him he simply warped to a different bookmark and jammed me again...
People really need to addapt. Just look at how many more nanos are being killed than some time ago, people are getting more and more used to them and know how to handle them... hehe in time a nerf might not even be needed :)
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.06 12:41:00 -
[63]
you do know that suggesting remote ECCM removes all credibility of "experience" for the rest of the post, right? - putting the gist back into logistics |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 13:34:00 -
[64]
The falcon will definetly be next on the nerf list now that CCP has shown they cave in to whiners. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.06 13:59:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 06/08/2008 14:00:36 Edited by: Taram Caldar on 06/08/2008 14:00:03 Once again for the folks who have obviously got no clue: Falcons are *slow* Falcons have NO tank Falcons align like your average brick
Counters to falcons: 1) Bring EWAR of your own, either Damps or your own ECM ships (blackbirds, falcons, rooks etc) 2) Fit ECCM mods. Trust me, if you are packing ECCM you are going to make that falcon's life miserable. Don't crunch silly numbers, do it, see how effective it is. And it IS effective, especially in recons, command and battleships. 3) Send your fast movers after their falcons. 4) Use FOF missiles whenever a falcon starts jamming (most of the time they are WELL within cruise range, and if you have cerbs they're within heavy launcher range too). 5) Have faster ships get close and use drones to run them off.
Bottom line is that the Falcon, Rook, Scorpion, Blackbird and Kitsune fill 1 role, and only 1 role. NONE of them have impressive damage output. The Kitsune, Falcon, Rook and Blackbird can't even fit drones to augment their pathetic dps unlike their counterparts for other races. They are NOT solo pwnmobiles. Without a gang these ships are absolute junk. They are a gang support ship and ONLY a gang support ship.
Just because your gangs can't be arsed to properly fit or fly for counter-EWAR roles is NOT the fault of a ship that is already underpowered in the combat arena. Take away their jammers and those ships are utterly useless. ECM has already been nerfed, twice, and it's barely on par with the other ships.
Arazu/Lach: Excellent gang support AND a solid solo PVP craft Curse/Pilgrim: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft Rapier/Huginn: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft Falcon/Rook: Excellent Gang support......
Counter for Arazu/Lach: bring your own ewar.... or burn towards them. Counter for Curse/Pilgrim: Fit passive tank and use non cap guns.... out-drain them.... bring your own ewar Counter for Rapier/Huginn: Kill it, nothing really complicated about it. Counter for Falcon/Rook: Bring your own ewar.... burn towards them and launch drones.... fit ECCM modules... Use FoF Missiles....
As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare. But yet... you want to nerf that ship more? C'mon now... get real folks. I don't even fly Falcons that often anymore (even though I can) so it's not like I'm bent because 'my' ship is being chanted 'nerf nerf' about. I've flown them... and I've flown against them. I've been in gangs where falcons have ass-****d us and I've been in gangs where we dealt with the falcons properly and made them a totally non-issue. Use your anti-support ships in your gang properly and falcon's really do become a non issue. At most getting off 1 or 2 cycles before being chased off grid or killed. .
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Spartan dax
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:07:00 -
[66]
Originally by: DruzidelCastro
Originally by: Spartan dax Oh please! The Rook is horribly bipolar, Long range jamming coupled with medium range missiles? It's the Rook that needs changing to make people prefer it over the Falcon. Drop the stupid range bonus on it, move a mid to a low and give it some speed/damage/agility/drone bay or something instead. In fact, make it a bigger kitsune with teeth. That is the way to get people into rooks.
Er, I'm pretty sure people don't hop into falcons or rooks to do dps. The launchers are there primarily for self-defense I'd think.
That's the thing. The Falcon and Rook perform the exact same role. Mix it up a bit I say, the curse and Pilgrim are two very different beasts so why can't the Rook and Falcon have some differences? Give people a reason to fly the damb ship and you might see less Falcon pilots out there and more Rooks.
(And no I don't have a Rook BPO )
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:30:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider you do know that suggesting remote ECCM removes all credibility of "experience" for the rest of the post, right?
So you do know that just cos you got jammed for a few cycles does not mean that a "chance based" module is broken it just means he rolled 7's or you rolled snake eyes a few times.
PPL bring remote rep to reduce the dmg a hostile fleet kicks out why not bring remote eccm if you get a ewar heavy gang come into your systems?...still after the "kill all" fit for your ratting ship are ya?..thought so.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:47:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Just because your gangs can't be arsed to properly fit or fly for counter-EWAR roles is NOT the fault of a ship that is already underpowered in the combat arena. Take away their jammers and those ships are utterly useless. ECM has already been nerfed, twice, and it's barely on par with the other ships.
Thats exactly why it will get nerfed soon. Silly i know but there seems to be a new vision in CCP. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:12:00 -
[69]
Some points of fact:
Originally by: Taram Caldar Falcons align like your average brick.
False. Falcons are nowadays the most agile recons.
Originally by: Taram Caldar Counters to falcons:
3) Send your fast movers after their falcons..
Won't work after the patch.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
4) Use FOF missiles whenever a falcon starts jamming (most of the time they are WELL within cruise range, and if you have cerbs they're within heavy launcher range too)..
I thought that FoFs had a hard range limit, 80km or so?
Originally by: Taram Caldar
5) Have faster ships get close and use drones to run them off.
This is pretty much the same as 3), no? -- Gradient forum |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:21:00 -
[70]
Edited by: marakor on 06/08/2008 17:24:58
Originally by: Theron Gyrow Some points of fact:
Originally by: Taram Caldar Falcons align like your average brick.
False. Falcons are nowadays the most agile recons.
Originally by: Taram Caldar Counters to falcons:
3) Send your fast movers after their falcons..
Won't work after the patch.
Originally by: Taram Caldar
4) Use FOF missiles whenever a falcon starts jamming (most of the time they are WELL within cruise range, and if you have cerbs they're within heavy launcher range too)..
I thought that FoFs had a hard range limit, 80km or so?
Originally by: Taram Caldar
5) Have faster ships get close and use drones to run them off.
This is pretty much the same as 3), no?
6) deal with the fact you need a varied fleet to fight a varied fleet and asking ccp to remove everything that your not prepared or your gang is not skilled enough to deal with is pathetic.
PS: number 3) will work after the patch it will just take longer.
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Inspiration
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:25:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Inspiration on 06/08/2008 17:27:00
Originally by: Taram Caldar As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare. But yet... you want to nerf that ship more? C'mon now... get real folks. I don't even fly Falcons that often anymore (even though I can) so it's not like I'm bent because 'my' ship is being chanted 'nerf nerf' about. I've flown them... and I've flown against them. I've been in gangs where falcons have ass-****d us and I've been in gangs where we dealt with the falcons properly and made them a totally non-issue. Use your anti-support ships in your gang properly and falcon's really do become a non issue. At most getting off 1 or 2 cycles before being chased off grid or killed.
Where the other recons only hinder you and make you life difficult in responding or dealing with your opponent (but never impossible at short range), the falcon takes you out of the picture 100% if it gets a jam. It does so from long range, and you can't deal with ships holding you down at short range either making the falcon a pretty safe ship to be in.
Also the counters you suggest require a lot of assumptions to work...not all of them very realistic I might add. When you got 5 players, how many ships will you devote to anti-ECM and how many medium slots used up for ECCM are you willing to sacrifice in your whole gang for just the ** random chance ** to take a falcon out? The problem is that ECM operates from long range, counters are unreliable and make your short range combat abilities disappear as well as your long range ones. No other EW system does that! In the meantime your short range foes will always shield their ECM support and at the same time punch you silly...again without being able to counter often or even repair effectivly.
So a gang of 4 BS + one falcon can beat a group of 6 BS or which one is pure anti-support (and all other BS carrying ECCM too) still silly. Slso, you usually will not know if there is one, two or more cloaked support ships you have to contend with. Most such pilots aren't even mains, but out of corp characters and then local won't give an indication what you are up against either. If CCP likes to promote small scale low sec skirmishes, then changing the way ECM works, not a nerf per-see is the best thing they can do!
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:28:00 -
[72]
I wish some of you would learn how to pvp before asking for a nerf lmao
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Andrew Haiduk
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:33:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sweet Rosella I wish some of you would learn how to pvp before asking for a nerf lmao
I can see you are l33t man!
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128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.08.07 06:22:00 -
[74]
Edited by: 128th ABC123 on 07/08/2008 06:23:19
Originally by: Roemy Schneider you do know that suggesting remote ECCM removes all credibility of "experience" for the rest of the post, right?
Wow.. sassy one-liner, care to elaborate? And yes, I am a noob... I don't know what i'm doing and I suck at pvp.. I try bitterly to boost my ego by posting on these forums and acting like I know what im doing. Now **** off.
Ps. Ever thought that with remote eccm i could also be pointing at having an eos in your gang you ****ing dimwhit?> which i also mentioned before?
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.07 07:49:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: ddred Their allready nerfed, they have a low scan resolution, a 5 second delay after decloaking, non existant DPS and a short targeting range so for racial jammers they need to fit sensor boosters with targeting range.
funny the same drawbacks that other recons have. Even so they are several orders of magnitude more powerfull and can stay imune to enemies at 100 km + keeping 1 or 2 ships jammed almost forever (YES THEY CAN ! You naysayers that say there is no perma jamming shut up! I just spent 17 cyclers of jamming JAMMED in a row from a single falcon. What i was in ? In a tempest 1 1 ECCM II.
If there ever was some overpowered category of ships in eve they are ECM ships, wayyyy more than nanoships ever were.
^this. Oh and to the guy splurting on about insurance, u conveniantly forgot to include fittings in the equasion. lol poudly annoying fc's since 2007
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.07 07:50:00 -
[76]
Originally by: 128th ABC123 Edited by: 128th ABC123 on 07/08/2008 06:23:19
Originally by: Roemy Schneider you do know that suggesting remote ECCM removes all credibility of "experience" for the rest of the post, right?
Wow.. sassy one-liner, care to elaborate? And yes, I am a noob... I don't know what i'm doing and I suck at pvp.. I try bitterly to boost my ego by posting on these forums and acting like I know what im doing. Now **** off.
Ps. Ever thought that with remote eccm i could also be pointing at having an eos in your gang you ****ing dimwhit?> which i also mentioned before?
lol anger management --->that way poudly annoying fc's since 2007
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast |
128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.08.07 08:23:00 -
[77]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: 128th ABC123 Edited by: 128th ABC123 on 07/08/2008 06:23:19
Originally by: Roemy Schneider you do know that suggesting remote ECCM removes all credibility of "experience" for the rest of the post, right?
Wow.. sassy one-liner, care to elaborate? And yes, I am a noob... I don't know what i'm doing and I suck at pvp.. I try bitterly to boost my ego by posting on these forums and acting like I know what im doing. Now **** off.
Ps. Ever thought that with remote eccm i could also be pointing at having an eos in your gang you ****ing dimwhit?> which i also mentioned before?
lol anger management --->that way
Lol who said i was angry?
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2008.08.07 09:32:00 -
[78]
To the Op. The current situation with the Falcon is a direct result of an over the top Falcon buff which was made necessary by an earlier sledgehammer ECM nerf...and now there is another call for CCP to 'try again'? The same people who ruined the Pilgrim and Arazu and are currently in the process of ruining Minmatar and re-writing the last thousand years of Eve history to liquid paper out the existance of fast ships?
First of all learn your lessons and try to understand the consequences of nerfs/buffs made by CCP before you selfishly and mindlessly call them into being everytime a ship shines. The changes are often broad sweeping, over done, require numerous hotfixes for months down the track, and eventually require a buff as they realize (or not) that they screwed the nerf up.
I agree that yes, the Falcon is a very powerful ship and performs its role very effectively. Keep in mind that it does nothing else, that you could train for this ship yourself, and that there are counters if one could be bothered using them (if the Falcon is such a threat, it should be taken seriously in game before it gets taken over seriously out of game). If you can't get over it and believe that there must absolutely be something done about it, try recommending specific changes of specific magnitude in order to balance it rather than dooming everyone to reliving the horrors of the past.
Personally, I wouldn't support a Falcon nerf or a nerf on any ship in the game. I just wish CCP would keep its damned incompetent hands off this stuff for a change and focus their attention on squashing bugs. But if something were to be done to the Falcon, perhaps a SMALL change to the effectiveness of the signal dispersion modules in the low slots would be a place to start, and hopefully finish.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.07 09:59:00 -
[79]
dont worry rapier/vaga piltos wil switch to falcons
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Dark Losk
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 10:04:00 -
[80]
ecm are ok as it is, CCP just need to boost DAMPENERS, they're pretty useless after the nerf
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance |
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Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 10:48:00 -
[81]
I've suggested previously that CCP look at all Recon ships for a rebalancing because recently there's been so many changes affecting these ships that they'll a bit our of whack.
Minnie recons got a serious nerf to webbing this patch and target painting has always been relatively underpowered, Gallente damps are still underpowered, but perhaps scramblers new role will help them, Amarrian Recons really need looking at too since the Curse (probably overpowered) is way, way better than the Pilgrim (which seems fairly well balanced).
But yes, I believe top dog after the speed changes will still be the Falcon since its jamming range is just a little too high IMHO for stuff to reach it in most fights. At least fleets of rooks cant warp around your fleet cloaked getting to the uber jam range before every fight without being noticed.
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SlaineMor
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2008.08.07 10:57:00 -
[82]
IMO Falcons only appear overpowered when a toon has fully specialized in using them... So to low skilled/average players they aren't abusive!
Sensor dampners shouldn't be re-boosted - as they were over powered before and had 100% success rate!
Tracking disruption has been buffed slightly but is of course useless against missile boats...
Erm.. target painting is still utter pants as a primary form of EW especially after the speed nerf/fix comes in, the recently 'essential' rapier/huginn will now be shelved in favour of faction scrambler fitted arazu's!!!
So.. dont nerf ECM... just give Minmatar a useful primary EW!!!! as Im not convinced that painting will now be commonly used to combat AB fitted halo implanted pilots.. as a Sig Rad tank will still be pretty weak!!! We need something that can pefrom some kind of Denial of Servcei like the other EW forms!!!
Eat my Rusty Bullethole! |
Dark Losk
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:15:00 -
[83]
A single dampener recon do nothing in combat while a falcon can jam various targets at same time.. yes it's not 100%, but ppl dont use eccm in combat ships so you got permajammed the whole combat.
3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance |
jaybo34
Caldari Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:34:00 -
[84]
I've got an idea lets nerf every ship in the game thats any good at anything . then mayby all the carebears and noobs will have a decent lvl playing field with the people who benn playing and paying subscriptions for years. god dammit quit the whining falcons are not overpowerd. NOOBS.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Taram Caldar Falcons are *slow* Falcons have NO tank Falcons align like your average brick
Check EFT and you'll find they have the fastest align time. Sure, they might not be nano'd to help but base they still have the quickest alignment. As for no tank, you don't need to tank much @ 200km in a small fight in low-sec. Small gangs is where they really shine as being overpowered.
Quote: Counters to falcons: 1) Bring EWAR of your own, either Damps or your own ECM ships (blackbirds, falcons, rooks etc)
Damps only work out to 90km or so, and if you mwd out far enough to damp them they can just warp off and come back in as they please.
Quote: 2) Fit ECCM mods. Trust me, if you are packing ECCM you are going to make that falcon's life miserable. Don't crunch silly numbers, do it, see how effective it is. And it IS effective, especially in recons, command and battleships.
ECCM does work to extent, but not nearly as much as small engagements go. When you can put double the amount of jammers on the more important ships to jam simply because there aren't as many people, their ECCM isn't as effective.
Quote: 3) Send your fast movers after their falcons.
Not everyone flies nano'd, and sometimes you can't spare an extra person for a smaller ship in a smaller engagement. With the upcoming patch it will be harder to do that even if you do get a nano pilot.
Quote: 4) Use FOF missiles whenever a falcon starts jamming (most of the time they are WELL within cruise range, and if you have cerbs they're within heavy launcher range too).
Yeah..... no.
Quote: 5) Have faster ships get close and use drones to run them off.
Same as 3.
Quote: Bottom line is that the Falcon, Rook, Scorpion, Blackbird and Kitsune fill 1 role, and only 1 role. NONE of them have impressive damage output. The Kitsune, Falcon, Rook and Blackbird can't even fit drones to augment their pathetic dps unlike their counterparts for other races. They are NOT solo pwnmobiles. Without a gang these ships are absolute junk. They are a gang support ship and ONLY a gang support ship.
Bottom line is that there's no reason to fly a rook. If they removed the range (NOT THE STRENGTH) of the falcon, it would balance it out quite nicely between the two.
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Taram Caldar
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:18:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 07/08/2008 12:19:55
Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 06/08/2008 17:40:56
Originally by: Taram Caldar As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare. But yet... you want to nerf that ship more? C'mon now... get real folks. I don't even fly Falcons that often anymore (even though I can) so it's not like I'm bent because 'my' ship is being chanted 'nerf nerf' about. I've flown them... and I've flown against them. I've been in gangs where falcons have ass-****d us and I've been in gangs where we dealt with the falcons properly and made them a totally non-issue. Use your anti-support ships in your gang properly and falcon's really do become a non issue. At most getting off 1 or 2 cycles before being chased off grid or killed.
So a gang of 4 BS + one falcon can beat a group of 6 (even more) BS of which one is pure anti-support (and all other BS carrying ECCM too) still silly.
Wrong: Primary the falcon. He warps off or dies. Period. As has been pointed out 99.999% of the time falcons are less than 150km off the fight. VERY few falcons are fit for 150km+ and most BS can be fit to engage, Easily I might add, out to 180km. Also, if you have a gang of 6 BS with nothing else then you're an idiot. Bringing 1 trick and only 1 trick to a fight is stupid. If they brought 6 HAC to the fight fitted for speed tanking (even moderate speed tanking) they'd probably slowly pick you apart as well with you unable to really respond. What if they had 6 BS of their own fit for spider tanking? You going to call for a nerf to remote reps because you can't kill them? What if their entire fleet fits neuts in their spare highs and you didnt? Nerf neuts?
Quote:
Also, you usually will not know if there is one, two or more cloaked support ships you have to contend with.
Then your intel sucks and you probably shouldn't have engaged anyway.
Quote:
Most such pilots aren't even mains, but out of corp characters
BS... I've never had this be the case. Not once in the entire time I've PVP'd in EVE. Yes I've seen out of corp alts doing scouting, out of corp alts doing probing but never out-of-corp alts doing EWAR support.... not once in all the PVP fights I've been in.
.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:22:00 -
[87]
Deal with a falcon the same way you'd deal with a sniper geddon. Have an SB creep up on it then warp some fast locking inty's right on top of it and it should go down like a two dollar hooker.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:23:00 -
[88]
Quote: Just because your gangs can't be arsed to properly fit or fly for counter-EWAR roles is NOT the fault of a ship that is already underpowered in the combat arena. Take away their jammers and those ships are utterly useless. ECM has already been nerfed, twice, and it's barely on par with the other ships.
In small gangs you still get jammed, regardless of ECCM. Like I said before, the less people the more jammers available. You also don't get the diversity of a large gang.
Quote: Arazu/Lach: Excellent gang support AND a solid solo PVP craft Curse/Pilgrim: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft Rapier/Huginn: Excellent gang support and solid solo PVP craft Falcon/Rook: Excellent Gang support......
As someone mentioned earlier - None of the other recons completely disable you from 200km out like a falcon can. If you can't lock you can't do damage, keep tackle, nos/neut, remote rep, or do anything that requires a lock. Can a rapier do that with it's webs and painters?
Quote: Counter for Arazu/Lach: bring your own ewar.... or burn towards them. Counter for Curse/Pilgrim: Fit passive tank and use non cap guns.... out-drain them.... bring your own ewar Counter for Rapier/Huginn: Kill it, nothing really complicated about it. Counter for Falcon/Rook: Bring your own ewar.... burn towards them and launch drones.... fit ECCM modules... Use FoF Missiles....
If this is truly all you can think up, its no wonder we're having this argument. Arazu's and Lach's are very cap unstable and damps don't work nearly as well as they used to. Drones eat them up nicely too. Pilgrims need to operate in web range (more or less) putting them at a very big disadvantage. Kill a curse's drones and it can't do any damage. Rapiers and huginns still need cap to mwd around, I've found neuts work well to get rid of them - or just lots of drakes. Which leaves me with the falcon and rook!
Any cloaked ship has a great "oh shit" factor when you've sat there scouting out a hostile gang only to have them uncloak on you in the middle of the fight. You can't scout a falcon if it's cloaked, so more often than not you aren't prepared for it because you've fit for what you've scouted. Which I guess is true for any Covert recon, but I can deal with being damped by shitty damps, I can deal with being webbed, I can deal with being nossed/neuted from something within web range. But being rendered useless by something sitting 150-200km out because you couldn't scout it and fit specific mods to counter it? Bit much for me.
Drop the range down to 100km on a falcon and keep it to 200km for a rook - I'd be much happier. How many rooks do you see flying around nowadays anyway? The stealth, range, and strength simply makes falcons too strong as far as smaller engagements go. Removing the range is the most sensible to me.
Quote: As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare.
None of the others break multiple people's locks.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:43:00 -
[89]
The reason why ECCM works against falcons (and it does) is because in order to hit that range they need to use racials. That means most of the time they only have one or two jammers to cycle at you, which means if you're a mega at best he has a 32% chance to jam you per jammer per cycle with max'd skills. IE, as long as you don't all fly the same type of ship you'll be fine because he won't be able to jam more than one target of a given ship type consistently. Thing is like any sniper you need to get a point on him in order to kill him which is tricky to do since he'll just warp off, like a Rokh/Cerb/Geddon/Mega would.
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DruzidelCastro
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:03:00 -
[90]
It's not even really that ECM works as well as it does, it's how well it works from a stupidly high range. Might not be much of an issue for people in 0.0 due to an abundance of snipe-fit battleships, but small engagements in low-sec? Forget it.
I'd consider falcons to be twice the ship the rook is just because it can cloak and jam with the same strength and range.
This is what it looks like now: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, long jam range
This is what I'd like to see it come to: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, much lesser jam range
Seems a bit more balanced between the two, eh? Everyone disregards the cloak for some reason. It's a pretty big deal.
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