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Hul'ka Minmatar MicroFunks	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:35:00 - [91] don't nerf falcons, boost other recons!!! --------- I want to phew phew
Spartan dax We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:39:00 - [92] Originally by: DruzidelCastro It's not even really that ECM works as well as it does, it's how well it works from a stupidly high range. Might not be much of an issue for people in 0.0 due to an abundance of snipe-fit battleships, but small engagements in low-sec? Forget it. I'd consider falcons to be twice the ship the rook is just because it can cloak and jam with the same strength and range. This is what it looks like now: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, long jam range This is what I'd like to see it come to: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, much lesser jam range Seems a bit more balanced between the two, eh? Everyone disregards the cloak for some reason. It's a pretty big deal. Oh fine let's say CCP adheres to your whining and removes the optimal bonus, what does it get instead? If you're clever enough to come up with a way to make sure the Falcon isn't overpowered then you should be smart enough to come up with a usefull bonus for it while demanding it nerfed. So what does it get, a 5% kinetic damage bonus?
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:50:00 - [93] Originally by: Spartan dax Oh fine let's say CCP adheres to your whining and removes the optimal bonus, what does it get instead? If you're clever enough to come up with a way to make sure the Falcon isn't overpowered then you should be smart enough to come up with a usefull bonus for it while demanding it nerfed. So what does it get, a 5% kinetic damage bonus? That would work. It could also get an extra turret slot and +10%/level hybrid range bonus. -- Gradient forum
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:51:00 - [94] Originally by: Spartan dax Oh fine let's say CCP adheres to your whining and removes the optimal bonus, what does it get instead? If you're clever enough to come up with a way to make sure the Falcon isn't overpowered then you should be smart enough to come up with a usefull bonus for it while demanding it nerfed. So what does it get, a 5% kinetic damage bonus? Maybe a missile velocity or precision bonus so it can attempt to combat any interceptors that run after it or something. While you're at it, it could probably use three missile slots rather than just two, simply take off a turret hardpoint. Maybe a shield resist bonus? I'm sure CCP could think something up.
Spartan dax We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 13:59:00 - [95] I think further comments won't be required.
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 14:08:00 - [96] So your argument is not to change anything because you personally don't know what to change it to? Sound logic. When you come up valid points to my arguments feel free to post.
dojocan81	Posted - 2008.08.07 14:35:00 - [97] posting in or starting a stupid whine thread needs definitely a counter ....
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:00:00 - [98] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 07/08/2008 15:07:20 Originally by: DruzidelCastro So your argument is not to change anything because you personally don't know what to change it to? Sound logic. When you come up valid points to my arguments feel free to post. What is about ppl like you who wanna put every ship in the game into one class that can be killed by anything with a range of 80km?. Its a gang ship it adds depth to a engagement.
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:07:00 - [99] Originally by: Andnowthenews What is about ppl like you who wanna put every ship in the game into one class that can be killed by anything with a range of 80km?. What is it about people like you that don't read anything I post? Rooks would still be able to jam out to 200km, they just wouldn't have a cloak on top of it. If you didn't want to be killed by 'anything with a range of 80km' then you'd use a rook.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:12:00 - [100] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 07/08/2008 15:12:14 Originally by: DruzidelCastro Originally by: Andnowthenews What is about ppl like you who wanna put every ship in the game into one class that can be killed by anything with a range of 80km?. What is it about people like you that don't read anything I post? Rooks would still be able to jam out to 200km, they just wouldn't have a cloak on top of it. If you didn't want to be killed by 'anything with a range of 80km' then you'd use a rook. Then who cares about the falcon jamming at 200km if the rook will still be able to both need to warp off if they are locked and approached or will you be crying about the fact the rook can align and warp off if summat gets close it it next?. What happened bud did you get jammed and need to release a bit of emo about it?.

DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:16:00 - [101] Originally by: Andnowthenews Then who cares about the falcon jamming at 200km if the rook will still be able to both need to warp off if they are locked and approached or will you be crying about the fact the rook can align and warp off if summat gets close it it next?. This is what I mean when people completely disregard the cloak. You can scout a rook out unless he fits a regular cloak, and then he gets dealt properly with penalties. If you see it before hand you'll know that you will need to deal with it and can prepare. Can you do that when you missed the falcon that can warp and get into position without being seen?
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:23:00 - [102] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 07/08/2008 15:26:24 Originally by: DruzidelCastro Originally by: Andnowthenews Then who cares about the falcon jamming at 200km if the rook will still be able to both need to warp off if they are locked and approached or will you be crying about the fact the rook can align and warp off if summat gets close it it next?. This is what I mean when people completely disregard the cloak. You can scout a rook out unless he fits a regular cloak, and then he gets dealt properly with penalties. If you see it before hand you'll know that you will need to deal with it and can prepare. Can you do that when you missed the falcon that can warp and get into position without being seen? No nerf needed then all you need are:- 1. Better scouts and better organization in your gangs to deal with it then, cos unless the falcon was born, lived and grew up in the system your in then its gonna need to uncloak to jump through gate and that is what your scouts should be looking for 2. If you are roaming a rook can be sitting cloaked in a pounce point and warp in when you jump through a gate and by the time he lands any cloaking penalty will be gone. The cloak on a falcon does not really benefit or boost it as a ecm ship if your a skilled or smart pilot, any more than cloaks benefit all the other recons that can warp cloaked. Who's your alt?.
Spartan dax We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:30:00 - [103] You don't get it. What you're describing, the midrange jammer that can chase off inties, that is the Combat recon but currently that combat recon sucks at doing that. A Falcon with its puny launchers and hitpoints would get ganked by a Bantam trying to do this. Sure the speednerf might help slightly but what really needs to be done is making the Rook more attractive as an alternative to the Falcon. But to play along with your little Non optimal Falcon charade. Usefull bonuses: (per lvl) 5% more agility 5% more CAP 5% more speed That nifty MWD bonus the Thorax gets 5% smaller sigradius And of course you'd have to redesign locking ranges so it locks faster and shorter as well. A 25m3 dronebay would hardly overpower it come to think of it. Hell I'd fly that, 25% more agility, 25m3 drone bay.... Not a gang ship anymore. Please give me one.
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:34:00 - [104] Originally by: Andnowthenews No nerf needed then all you need are:- 1. Better scouts and better organization in your gangs to deal with it then, cos unless the falcon was born, lived and grew up in the system your in then its gonna need to uncloak to jump thgrough gate and that is what your scouts should be looking for 2. If you are roaming a rook can be sitting cloaked in a pounce point and warp in when you jump through a gate and by the time he lands any cloaking penalty will be gone. The cloak on a falcon does not really benefit it as a ecm ship any more than cloaks benifit all the other recons that can warp cloaked. Want to sell clue. Any ship that can warp cloaked is a valuable scout ship. At least a rook sitting in a pounce point can't warp around following people. Did I mention it still locks people slower too? Also, a lot of people fit probes to their falcons to catch people sitting in safe spots and give warp ins...can't do that with a cloaked rook eh? Post with your main or I'll just consider you to be a troll.
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:43:00 - [105] Originally by: Spartan dax You don't get it. What you're describing, the midrange jammer that can chase off inties, that is the Combat recon but currently that combat recon sucks at doing that. A Falcon with its puny launchers and hitpoints would get ganked by a Bantam trying to do this. Are you considering the rook to be midranged ECM-wise or dps-wise? To me, the launchers are more for self-defense than offensive capabilities. If the speed nerfs go through then it might be a bit easier to hit things with the missiles. Quote: Sure the speednerf might help slightly but what really needs to be done is making the Rook more attractive as an alternative to the Falcon. Which is what the falcon 'nerf' would be doing. Restoring the role of a rook. Quote: But to play along with your little Non optimal Falcon charade. Usefull bonuses: (per lvl) 5% more agility 5% more CAP 5% more speed That nifty MWD bonus the Thorax gets 5% smaller sigradius 5% per level might be overdoing it but those are all good ideas. Quote: And of course you'd have to redesign locking ranges so it locks faster and shorter as well. A 25m3 dronebay would hardly overpower it come to think of it. If they didn't redo the hardpoint lay out and add a damage bonus, I wouldn't mind seeing a drone bay either. Again though, 25m3 might be overdoing it. Quote: Hell I'd fly that, 25% more agility, 25m3 drone bay.... Not a gang ship anymore. Please give me one. How would it not be a gang ship? You'd still have 0 tank and about 10 dps from the launchers, maybe a little more if given light drones to use.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 15:48:00 - [106] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 07/08/2008 15:56:17 Originally by: DruzidelCastro Originally by: Andnowthenews No nerf needed then all you need are:- 1. Better scouts and better organization in your gangs to deal with it then, cos unless the falcon was born, lived and grew up in the system your in then its gonna need to uncloak to jump thgrough gate and that is what your scouts should be looking for 2. If you are roaming a rook can be sitting cloaked in a pounce point and warp in when you jump through a gate and by the time he lands any cloaking penalty will be gone. The cloak on a falcon does not really benefit it as a ecm ship any more than cloaks benifit all the other recons that can warp cloaked. Want to sell clue. Any ship that can warp cloaked is a valuable scout ship. At least a rook sitting in a pounce point can't warp around following people. Did I mention it still locks people slower too? Also, a lot of people fit probes to their falcons to catch people sitting in safe spots and give warp ins...can't do that with a cloaked rook eh? Post with your main or I'll just consider you to be a troll. I am a troll so tough. And how is any of those things your saying related to ecm str or range?. You just listed a few things that are all "out of combat" abilities that most cov ops and every other force recon can do and all of them have nothing to do with ECM range or str or help the ship in actual combat aside from a few % delay in locking time compared to the rook. Give it a rest ffs you sound like a whiney fool who got jammed and now has gone all emo about it. The falcon is a good ship for small- med sized gang combat and although sucks at everything but jamming (and so may need boosting a little) it gives a depth and forces engaged gangs to think and be more tactical in there fights against each other.
DruzidelCastro Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:00:00 - [107] Originally by: Andnowthenews I am a troll so tough. Not surprised. Quote: And how is any of those things your saying related to ecm str or range?. Not even going to bother. Quote: You just listed a few things that are all "out of combat" abilities that most cov ops and every other force recon can do and all of them have nothing to do with ECM range or str or help the ship in actual combat aside from a few % delay in locking time compared to the rook. It's the element of surprise. You can count 4 hostiles in local but only see 3 ships and have no idea what the 4th one would be in. He could be in a cov ops or pilgrim/rapier/arazu and you wouldn't know until he uncloaked. By bringing a falcon closer in to get its jams off, the 'unknown' factor isn't as harsh. I'd rather be getting damped, webbed, or neuted and getting plinked at by low-dps ships than be jammed by something that showed up 200km out disrupting my lock. Quote: Give it a rest ffs you sound like a whiney fool who got jammed and now has gone all emo about it. Insults are the best way to prove your points. C/C?
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:07:00 - [108] Originally by: DruzidelCastro It's the element of surprise. You can count 4 hostiles in local but only see 3 ships and have no idea what the 4th one would be in. He could be in a cov ops or pilgrim/rapier/arazu and you wouldn't know until he uncloaked. By bringing a falcon closer in to get its jams off, the 'unknown' factor isn't as harsh. I had no idea that you could scan a cloaked rook (or any other ship for that matter) in a pounce point buddy im sure the eve community would love to know how you do it. Originally by: DruzidelCastro I'd rather be getting damped, webbed, or neuted and getting plinked at by low-dps ships than be jammed by something that showed up 200km out disrupting my lock. And there you were just a sec ago telling me its not all about you and your emo rage at getting jammed.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:20:00 - [109] Originally by: Andnowthenews What is it about people like you that don't read anything I post? Rooks would still be able to jam out to 200km, they just wouldn't have a cloak on top of it. If you didn't want to be killed by 'anything with a range of 80km' then you'd use a rook. The rook is the combat recon... It should be the one usable at short ranges. It actually could need a serious boost to its tanking abilities.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:25:00 - [110] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Andnowthenews What is it about people like you that don't read anything I post? Rooks would still be able to jam out to 200km, they just wouldn't have a cloak on top of it. If you didn't want to be killed by 'anything with a range of 80km' then you'd use a rook. The rook is the combat recon... It should be the one usable at short ranges. It actually could need a serious boost to its tanking abilities. Forget it bud its just another "i wanna fly in my own style of fits and ships and the game needs to change so its effective" whine.

Spartan dax We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:04:00 - [111] I just find it amusing that he wants the ship with no defensive capabilities whatsoever to be the shortranged one. Seeing how he thinks the rooks 5 launchers is usefull for selfdefence when it's supposed to sit at 200k...... Here's a newsflash for our nerf enthusiast, if you set up gatespots around a gate it won't matter one bit wether you're in a Falcon or a Rook since a good Falcon pilot won't actually cloak between the gatespots since you have a retargeting delay even on the cov ops cloak. So why are people flying Falcons? Because the Rook does the exact same thing only with less utility. It will not be one iota less devastating than a Falcon on a well setup gatecamp complete with jammingspots.(And lets be honest here, as all nerfers know, Falcons ALWAYS come with a complete set of Bookmarks around a gate and they're always AT LEST 200k away with 4 x 7 racials which PERMA jams ECCM:d CARRIERS)So no, nerfing the Falcon won't stop your lamenting about long range jammers. A ship with no tank, no dps, no speed at closer ranges just _dies_, cloak or no cloak. (Think passive drake without the tank) The Rook is pitifull at defending itself and the Falcon would need a MASSIVE boost to pull it off. For starters, SDA's would have to disappear from the game giving back the ship its low slots and the jamming strength of the ships would have to be adjusted.
Inspiration	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:47:00 - [112] Edited by: Inspiration on 07/08/2008 22:56:33 Edited by: Inspiration on 07/08/2008 22:55:28 Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 07/08/2008 12:19:55 Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 06/08/2008 17:40:56 Originally by: Taram Caldar As you can see ALL of the 'electronic warfare' specialty ships have both strengths and counters. And, interestingly, all but ONE of them is effective both solo and in gang warfare. But yet... you want to nerf that ship more? C'mon now... get real folks. I don't even fly Falcons that often anymore (even though I can) so it's not like I'm bent because 'my' ship is being chanted 'nerf nerf' about. I've flown them... and I've flown against them. I've been in gangs where falcons have ass-**d us and I've been in gangs where we dealt with the falcons properly and made them a totally non-issue. Use your anti-support ships in your gang properly and falcon's really do become a non issue. At most getting off 1 or 2 cycles before being chased off grid or killed. So a gang of 4 BS + one falcon can beat a group of 6 (even more) BS of which one is pure anti-support (and all other BS carrying ECCM too) still silly. Wrong: Primary the falcon. He warps off or dies. Period. As has been pointed out 99.999% of the time falcons are less than 150km off the fight. VERY few falcons are fit for 150km+ and most BS can be fit to engage, Easily I might add, out to 180km. Also, if you have a gang of 6 BS with nothing else then you're an idiot. Bringing 1 trick and only 1 trick to a fight is stupid. If they brought 6 HAC to the fight fitted for speed tanking (even moderate speed tanking) they'd probably slowly pick you apart as well with you unable to really respond. What if they had 6 BS of their own fit for spider tanking? You going to call for a nerf to remote reps because you can't kill them? What if their entire fleet fits neuts in their spare highs and you didnt? Nerf neuts? Quote: Also, you usually will not know if there is one, two or more cloaked support ships you have to contend with. Then your intel sucks and you probably shouldn't have engaged anyway. Quote:** Most such pilots aren't even mains, but out of corp characters BS... I've never had this be the case. Not once in the entire time I've PVP'd in EVE. Yes I've seen out of corp alts doing scouting, out of corp alts doing probing but never out-of-corp alts doing EWAR support.... not once in all the PVP fights I've been in. Ever been in low sec? Oh and btw, nearly all fights there are fought at point blank range, you cant fit for long range just to deal with EW, you would die horribly! Anyway, it's becoming a senseless 'discussion', and sapping away my will to live....i better resume my game and forget about the "good pvp'ers" here that think things are perfect as they are.
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:54:00 - [113] Edited by: marakor on 08/08/2008 00:02:36 Originally by: Inspiration Ever been in low sec? Oh and btw, nearly all fights there are fought at point blank range, you cant fit for long range just to deal with EW, you would die horribly! I believe that your comment should read you cannot ALL fit long range just to deal with ewar, and the answer is your right but some can. Also what is stopping you from sending your own recons in first to get position off the gate as well, after all in the great "NERF EVE TIL ITS BALANCED JIHAD" you should have a full mix of ships and ranges in your gang shouldn't you.
Havoc G D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:12:00 - [114] oh yeah, nerf the falcon so another one of my chars is worthless lolz
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:25:00 - [115] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 08/08/2008 14:26:18 Originally by: Spartan dax Originally by: DruzidelCastro It's not even really that ECM works as well as it does, it's how well it works from a stupidly high range. Might not be much of an issue for people in 0.0 due to an abundance of snipe-fit battleships, but small engagements in low-sec? Forget it. I'd consider falcons to be twice the ship the rook is just because it can cloak and jam with the same strength and range. This is what it looks like now: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, long jam range This is what I'd like to see it come to: Rooks - Cannot cloak, high jam strength, long jam range Falcons - Can cloak, high jam strength, much lesser jam range Seems a bit more balanced between the two, eh? Everyone disregards the cloak for some reason. It's a pretty big deal. Oh fine let's say CCP adheres to your whining and removes the optimal bonus, what does it get instead? If you're clever enough to come up with a way to make sure the Falcon isn't overpowered then you should be smart enough to come up with a usefull bonus for it while demanding it nerfed. So what does it get, a 5% kinetic damage bonus? If you take away it's range bonus, imo, you should give it a drone bay, just like all the other force recons have. I'm sure most falcon pilots would be fine with that compromise. .
Taya Tal	Posted - 2008.08.08 16:48:00 - [116] Originally by: KardonHarman A ship is only overpowered if there is no counter to it. If you know your going against a gang with Falcons then fit ECCM and have your missile spewers carry FOF and you make them almost redundant. To be an effective jammer a Falcon has to have zero tank, low speed and minimal DPS giving it virtually no self defence capability except range. Get a lock on it and any decent Falcon pilot will warp out taking it out of the fight for a couple minutes at least. get it tackled and unless its very lucky its probably as good as dead The Falcon is one of the most vunerable ships in any gang, and one of the easiest to counter So does this mean you think nanos, nanophoons, cavalry ravens, and multiple mwd's are not overpowered? If so, I wish you worked for CCP. That way they would never have nerfed any of the above.
J Valkor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.08 16:51:00 - [117] If ships are slower the Falcon needs to be nerfed because it takes longer to reach them now. Speed nerf is a buff to a ship that relies on 200km+ ranges.
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.08.08 17:03:00 - [118] Originally by: J Valkor If ships are slower the Falcon needs to be nerfed because it takes longer to reach them now. Speed nerf is a buff to a ship that relies on 200km+ ranges. So every sniper fitted ship or ship that can hit at 200km or over should be nerfed?. Where do you r*tards with these unbelievably stupid ideas and brainless comments come from?.
jaybo34 Caldari Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.08.08 18:11:00 - [119] Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 07/08/2008 Quote: Most such pilots aren't even mains, but out of corp characters BS... I've never had this be the case. Not once in the entire time I've PVP'd in EVE. Yes I've seen out of corp alts doing scouting, out of corp alts doing probing but never out-of-corp alts doing EWAR support.... not once in all the PVP fights I've been in. ive seen it many times. )
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.08.09 00:47:00 - [120] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 09/08/2008 00:47:57 I have to agree with many of the posters in this thread. There's not much reason to fly the rook over the falcon at this point in time. I think CCP should boost the rook. Perhaps 2/3 of the effective range with a 50% boost to the jammers.



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