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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:58:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Bobbechk yeah the phoon got shit PG, if it had about 4k moore (lol) then it would be uber... but still you can fit a full tank and 4 siege launchers for pretty bad DPS
Aw but come on, the phoon is the only decent minmatar battleship. If you are going to argue for boosts get the other ones boosted.
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Bobbechk
Vigilante inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:15:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Bobbechk on 05/08/2008 21:23:14
yeah its true i didnt say it should get boosted :P quite the opposite....
now dont get me started on the tempest
seriously can anyone figure out 1 thing the tempest is better then any other BS's at?
dps - possilby worst alpha -no tank - worst ew - no range - no falloff - no maelstrom is still better speed - no agiliy - no drones - no tracking - no sensor resoluton - NO! ECM reistance - horrible Price - nopp
and dieng horribly does not count!
Now theres a specialised BS for you!
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Rasclot
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Posted - 2008.08.05 21:56:00 -
[63]
They could'nt just accidentally slab the mass on to make minmatar ships the heaviest. This could'nt be a mistake made out of plain ******ness. This DOES indicate that they have something else in mind than balancing the game, as they have not even given any excuse for this change that is against all reason.
This is ******* ridiculous. |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.06 00:13:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Galan Undris
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg The'll still be the best at speed and agility and their ships will be able to speed tank their class and higher ships.
Relax.
Only in some classes. Some gallente ships are now faster under MWD than the equivalent minmatar due to the big changes in mass, Minmatar went from lightest to heaviest across the board. (i.e. Hyperion is faster and lighter than both Maelstrom and Tempest on sisi.)
This is f-king bullsh*t... Seriously...CCP WAKE UP FFS! --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.06 03:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Bobbechk
NEWS AT 11 BATTLESHIP WITH 7 LOWS TANKS GOOD
In other news MAELSTROM WITH FREE CRYSTAL SET ALSO TANKS GOOD
-SCIENTISTS STUNNED
Where is my free crystal set..... bastard caldari's stole it all didn't you. I claim hax. =p
ok mmore seriously typhoon is a decent ship, got a good tank and good dps though it's all other the place in what it does.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 07:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Rasclot They could'nt just accidentally slab the mass on to make minmatar ships the heaviest.
Agility is determined by mass*inertia modifier. You can modify both sides of that product to achieve the target agility. You can adjust mass to adjust the goal speed of the ship with MWD - as Minmatar still have the fastest ships in every class with MWD, the mass is not a big problem, it just means your speed difference at MWD speeds is not that big - and then you can set the inertia modifier to a value that makes the ship come out with the intended agility. It looks like Minmatar have the second best agility in all ship classes (I didn't check them all) except for battleships.
I do not know why the Typhoon was nerfed in agility from the most agile BS to be in line with the Dominix (mid-field), nor why the Tempest was nerfed in agility to be worse than the Megathron, when before they were equal and people complained that the little speed difference and equal agility made it already very difficult to impossible to kite the Megathron well.
On the other hand, the agility differences have been reduced drastically: The Rupture used to have over 4% agility difference from the Thorax, now it's barely above 1% more agile. Both the Stabber and the Rupture have worse agility on SiSi now than before, all other cruisers have better agility than before. Among AFs, the Jaguar and the Wolf are again the only ships that now have less agility on SiSi than on TQ. Lots of HACs are less agile on SiSi than on TQ, but the Vagabond got hit the strongest. Etc.
And yes, this must have been deliberate. There must have been the thought in CCP that Minmatar ships are "too agile" in comparison with other races.
The typical close-range Minmatar combat consists of trying to get as close as possible (to increase damage), but not getting too close (because you are outdamaged by blasters, or once primaried, by everything - Minmatar tanks suck). This combat style requires to react to an enemy - he has the initiative when to start trying to change the distance. So he has an advantage in when he starts to change direction. You will have to react to that. Agility is highly important here, as he already has a headstart in direction and speed change - 80m/s speed difference will not help much.
This kind of combat already has various problems: - Overheated web range of 13km means medium ACs can barely fight out of web range - Overheated MWD on the target means you have up to 10s delay until your own MWD overheats, giving him a speed advantage to catch you - Repping tanks are inferior to plate tanks, reducing the speed and agility advantage even further - etc.
Giving the ships less of an agility advantage means this style of combat is even more difficult than before.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 07:17:00 -
[67]
Minmatar need: 1) A good agility advantage over other races. Caldari are for some reason chosen to be the most agile race, please Make Matari ships closer to them (see BCs - Drake is as agile as the Hurricane; it used to be less agile on TQ. But no reason why we can't have the same agility on Caldari and Minmatar for the other ships). 2) Falloff increase on ACs to compensate for overheated webs and TD changes. This is also basically a dps increase for ACs without making them closer to blasters at optimal. (thinking about 13km instead of 10km for medium ACs etc., so nothing drastic) 3) Alpha increase, rof decrease on artillery, to give us back an alpha advantage without increase artillery dps. 4) An increased significance of signature radius among ships. Increase differences between signature radiuses between ship classes, adjust weapons accordingly, give weapons a sig resolution slightly bigger than the normal size, give missiles an exp radius 50% bigger than the average sig radius. This both ensures that Minmatar ships with the traditionally small signature radius actually have an advantage of that sig radius, as well as making our primary ewar somewhat useful. 5) Remove stacking penalty from webs to make the Rapier/Huginn useful with the new webs (without stacking penalty, two webs are roughly as effective as one scram on an MWDing target). 6) Tempest needs some agility improvement. It should have a distinct speed difference from other BS with MWD. (It used to be that the Rupture/Thorax differences in both mass and speed were quite nice, and could have been copied, but then those differences got reduced for SiSi, making them less useful as a model) 7) If torpedoes get nerfed (which should happen!), the Typhoon will need a boost of some kind. Not sure about what, though. Right now, it's an ok battleship because torps are ridiculously overpowered.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.06 07:35:00 -
[68]
(Moar posts!)
The basic "design goal" behind Minmatar ships should be what a "nano ship" should be, what "guerilla warfare" should be, in EVE:
A ship which is intself not very strong (e.g. not a ganker like blasterboats, not a tanker liker Amarr/Caldari, etc., but which can take a few friends and fly together), whose strength is to choose its targets carefully, and ganks them. And, most importantly, if you're careful and don't get out-tricked, you have the option to run if things go bad. This does not mean speed tanking is as much as you fly around fast and take little damage, and when you take more damage than you want, you leave. This means you go in on a target with your friends, start shooting him, take fire back, but you have more people and out-damage him. Then you notice hostile backup show up in local - or your scout notices his friends in the neighboring system - and you decide to bail, leaving right there.
That is, Minmatar ships can be comparatively weak (but full of tricks) in 1vs1 situations, but they need to be able to pick their fights, and have the ability not to commit to them as fully as, say, a blasterboat does.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.06 09:42:00 -
[69]
train amar - minmatar fix.
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RuneTday
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:36:00 -
[70]
Minmatar fixed
Pulled my credit card number and leaving eve. Hope more and more Minmatar continue to feel defrauded and do the same. Bye CCP |
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.08.06 15:39:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Nian Banks The reason been is that if you shield tank you will loose precious medium slots that otherwise would be fitting modules such as your MWD/AB, Ewar, Tackle, Cap Boosters, Sensor Boosters, Tracking Computers... because of this, the majority of pilots prefer to armor tank as you keep your PvP required modules.
Eh, it is all relative. I tend to shield tank because of all the good low slot modules I want space for. IStabs, Nano, Overdrive, Sensor, Gyros, Tracking Enhancers. For this reason I usually end up shield tanking armor-centric ships just so I can access all those wonderful low slots.
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Crackpipe2000
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Posted - 2008.08.06 16:32:00 -
[72]
Yeah well i personally a extremely annoyed by the fact that my ships are not advatageous by mobility, which is the described feat of the race.
Achieving the fastest top speed means nothing in its self. I bought a race supposedly specialized in mobility. Now tell me is it not ridiculous that minmatar's only speciality is flying straight, where better tanking and better damaging races could have the superior mobility too? You try out claw and crusader, crusader is better in ALL attributes, but flying straight. (but with better acceleration?) -And now the whole minmatar race is going "claw".
PS: As you may know, guerrilla tactics are executed exclusively by infantry, rather than aircrafts. Wonder why? |
Sabine Demsky
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:03:00 -
[73]
In a way I am happy the upcoming changes will finally push us from pretty bad to downright terrible. Now I have some hope that in a year or two CCP may get around to addressing the deficiencies of the Minmatar race and we will be buffed until we are balanced again.
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Bobbechk
Vigilante inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:04:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Bobbechk
NEWS AT 11 BATTLESHIP WITH 7 LOWS TANKS GOOD
In other news MAELSTROM WITH FREE CRYSTAL SET ALSO TANKS GOOD
-SCIENTISTS STUNNED
Where is my free crystal set..... bastard caldari's stole it all didn't you. I claim hax. =p
ok mmore seriously typhoon is a decent ship, got a good tank and good dps though it's all other the place in what it does.
*cough* this was a comment on some random dude that had been testing his blasterships vs a Maelstrom on sisi where everything is rather cheap
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Andre Coeurl
Gallente TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.06 17:58:00 -
[75]
Minmatar effectively have already few good ships, and have a very limited range of uses... They are just barely doing what they are supposed to be good at now, so I really hope no nerf will further reduce their combat potential! CCP think it over! Continuously nerfing is a perfect way to break a game!
I mainly fly Gallente but I've cross trained to Minmatar to have a bit more of flexibility and survive nerf a bit, but it looks like it's a hopless struggle these days... --- --- ---
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WillageGirl
Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers
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Posted - 2008.08.06 18:13:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Bobbechk
Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Bobbechk
NEWS AT 11 BATTLESHIP WITH 7 LOWS TANKS GOOD
In other news MAELSTROM WITH FREE CRYSTAL SET ALSO TANKS GOOD
-SCIENTISTS STUNNED
Where is my free crystal set..... bastard caldari's stole it all didn't you. I claim hax. =p
ok mmore seriously typhoon is a decent ship, got a good tank and good dps though it's all other the place in what it does.
*cough* this was a comment on some random dude that had been testing his blasterships vs a Maelstrom on sisi where everything is rather cheap
Im quite sure he got the idea of your troll post
...and now that we got back to this Im just itching to respond
but no, you're not worth it. All Im gonna say is that items are cheap on SiSi for a reason ... you know it being a test server. The name should say everything necessary.
Now go troll some other thread until you got something worth saying to say. This thread is MINE!
Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004 |
Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.08.07 04:41:00 -
[77]
Considering the last time CCP toyed around with agility (the 15% blanket agility buff for caldari) they deemed it balanced for the Charon (the biggest freighter) to have the agility of the Fenrir (the smallest freighter) and therefor also the same speed, as you don't fly but align and warp these beasts.... no, I honestly can't say I expect ANYTHING from this patch that does not point to a drug induced coma of some of the balancers.
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Red Lubricant
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Posted - 2008.08.07 05:33:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Red Lubricant on 07/08/2008 05:36:40 Did a bit of testing on SISI with a mate.
AFAIK minmatar sub-bs ships are still flyable- just needs a second shield-extender/resist mod resulting in (even) less gank. Kinda painful in some respects since your list of potential targets gets a LOT shorter.
However: The second buffer ususally gives enough leverage to get out if things go sour and nuke pesky tacklers on the way. Hit and run is ergo still more than doable (as far as can be said from SISI).
You just end up getting tackled a lot easier by people who know what they are doing (i.e.: not ratters or throw-together gangs).
Rapier kinda got the short end of the stick in terms of not being quite the beast it used to anymore and being put inline with the other (non-caldari) recons. People who want the old rapier will have to switch to huginns which still performs admirably (sans cloak ofc, but meh).
Hurricane remains the best bc afaik.
Cyclone, Munin and Sleip might actually work now, but we didn't really get around to those. Same for the frigs. Jaguar might be fun to fly now :-D
I'd be interested to hear from people who tried the Munin with the current changes :-O.
Phoon remains pretty much unaffected imho... Tempest is a mess (though a versatile one) :-P
All in all I think Minmatar are still viable if CCP manages to sort things out with arties.
Huzzah :-P wrong char
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.07 07:58:00 -
[79]
Edited by: BiggestT on 07/08/2008 07:58:20
Originally by: Nian Banks Right now, this is not a rant but..
Sounds like one to me
Originally by: Nian Banks
CCP set its sights on buffing the hell out of Tracking Disruptors, What they did was among other things, add a negative to falloff. Now to let you know, minmatar have few things that boost falloff, Thats T2 Ammunition, T2 Ship Bonuses and Rigs. Thats it, no modules boost falloff ranges however Autocannons almost exclusively fight in falloff. Ouch! So Autocannons took a beating too, but at least they still worked kinda, just! So good bye to the great almighty capless weapons, They still use no cap but wow they are bad!
Errm who the hell uses tracking disruptors that much any way, although you have many valid points, this isnt one of them.
/end troll That said i feel for my minmi buddies and am very happy im not one of them..Plz help em CCP
edit: typos poudly annoying fc's since 2007
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.07 08:59:00 -
[80]
Originally by: BiggestT
Errm who the hell uses tracking disruptors that much any way, although you have many valid points, this isnt one of them.
/end troll
I saw the end tag, but still:
Anyone with brain and even a reasonably-easily freed midslot. TD is currently the only EW that with a single module manages reliably to seriously bother a wide variety of ships, that is, any ship that gets most of its damage from turrets.
For example: do you know how much damage a max-skilled Zealot (a ship with range bonus) does with HPL and Scorch at 22km range with one non-bonused, range-rigged TD on it? Zero. Nada. Zilch.
The situation is still worse for blasters and ACs. Against missiles, TD's useless, of course. -- Gradient forum |
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Rasclot
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Posted - 2008.08.07 19:32:00 -
[81]
agility equals mobility. where the hell is my guerrillawarfare? oh yeah, it was caldari and amarr's specialty by lore, right? |
Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:37:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
And yes, this must have been deliberate. There must have been the thought in CCP that Minmatar ships are "too agile" in comparison with other races.
It might have something to do with the nanophoons and nanopanthers out there that were used for bumping carriers off stations and POS... and the 13km/sec nanomachariel.
Seems like a crappy way to fix a broken mechanic, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Hey, I'm just bitter that the Caracal is now more agile than the Stabber. And almost as fast... Oh and it never misses with its missiles and can fit to swat inties out of the sky.
Caldari online FTW. :D
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Realityfirst
Minmatar Hemorrhagic Visions
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:22:00 -
[83]
/signed Minmatar needs a boost. I just got in to a rapier and now it will be useless.
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SlaineMor
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2008.08.08 12:22:00 -
[84]
I've been a dedicated Minmatar pilot since birth in early 2005...
Had put up with weakest tank and lowest dps as I liked the agility advantage... Didnt even mind too much that Caldari EW ships didnt even need to fit a Minmatar Racial jammer because our sensor strengths all that low that a multispec or different racial jammer seems to work fine on Minni!
Now Matari have lost all advantages as many posters have pointed out... the bloody training time of having to train for our 'versatile' fitting makes this race now pointless.... why on earth should caldari have the best agility?!! when their playstyle is to sit with a solid shield tank and spam missiles - which always hit!!!! Do we want all of their ship classes kiting like the Crow?!! its BS!
Its now a proper trash race.. Cross training Amarr now... as most likely most other matari pilots that arent just gonna leave!...
NB the post who now says adapt - fly a muninn! pfft! maybe for belt rats but not for pvp... loss of alpha makes its function as a poor mid range sniper - as you cant 1 volley anything even though it has a tracking bonus - artillery cant track for **it... 3 midslots to take advantage of matari shield resists... lame.. 2 holes in the armour resists makes it a bad amour tanker...
This is just typical... I know something had to be done to stop things like Nano Ishtars but Matari are now useless... we're left with Versatility!!! which we all know is one of our biggest weaknesses as it lets us fit alternatives that we get zero bonuses too ... and WHY start making Matari ships heavier? how many nano-tempests did you see!!!!!! I never saw any!
Dunno.. I played UO for a good few years until they totally ruined that.. looks like CCP are heading the same way with Eve.. still theres plenty of other mmorgs about...
Eat my Rusty Bullethole! |
captain skinback
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Posted - 2008.08.08 13:54:00 -
[85]
i think ccp has something else planned with minmatar. i just dont know what yet. The speed nerf hurts allot but i guess it needed to be done. i would make it harder to fit a nano ship insted of nerf mwd. split propulsion upgrades into small medium and large and get the parts to take up powergrid and cpu. right now overdrive injectors take up 0 power grid and 0 cpu. so if they take up a good chunk of powergrid it would put minmatar to an advantage because the ships on the whole have quite a big powergrid. a vaga would still get up to some pretty nice speeds but they would have to fit reactor controls instead of another nanofiber internal structure.
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whoyoulookingat
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.08 20:32:00 -
[86]
After playing on sisi, these are my views (5+ yrs pure minny player here)
1. 1v1 phoon/pest 'v' geddon = close fight but ultimately the minny got their butts handed to em!! Not really a good test as how often do 1v1's really happen now?!
2. Speed nerf - vaga is completely useless now multiple setups tried & everytime it popped.. lack of dps to actually kill anything & ur mwd getting shut off when u want to get in to do a bit more dmg (due to crappy falloff fighting) = dead ship
3. minny BS v alot... KABLOOM after 30secs!! amarr ripped through it hp like butter, unable to stop the dmg of any incoming missiles (which affects all races), and just sat in disbelief once in blaster range as my lovely ship got shreaded!!
4. Drones 'v' my comm ship / hic... whilst able to withstand the dmg of one or 2 ships, once drones were out.. "BAMB" - dead!! Again, no viable counter to drones expect ur drones on theirs (and that means messing with o/view settings, etc etc)
Muninn / rapier - just didn't bother with either of these as after undocking and checking all the stats on my mods, they'de have been cannon fodder for everyone else!! Changes to the web have serious knackered the recon & muninn is just wet paper bag time!
Now it's pretty hard to get a real feel for what is under/over-powered on sisi due to everyone fitting ridiculous setups, max implants they dont ever use and bringing ships (i still haven't seen) into pvp but what i have noticed..
1. Speed - not as bad as i initially thought but C'Mon CCP - minmatar are supposed to be the gods of speed!! Quit with the crappy 10-20m/s faster and WTF with the heaviest ships now?! I, like many other players wish to see the minny speed difference with other races AT LEAST 100-200m/s faster, Get the mass down & agility levels up & we'll once again be true kings of speed as was intended for the race
2. Projectiles - WTF ?? outgunned, outclassed, outtracked, outdamaged.. the list goes on! WE have the worst possible slot layouts for tanking our ships (not to mention gaping resist holes) so the capless guns were originally a godsend.. not anymore! WE fight in falloff so half the dps straight away, target moves and half the dps again due to the insane amount of misses!! Explain to me how this is balance (along with other blasters + lasers) against missiles which hit everytime.. without fail.. no way to counter anymore due to not being able to outrun them.. they just keep hitting & hitting.. no misses or scratches.. just the same dmg over and over again!! Is that balanced?? I think not! and all this crap i hear about "but u can warp off and they wont hit"!! Err, usually in a half decent fight, you're there for the slog or unable to GTFO due to being scrammed!! damp / disrupt / ecm a missile boat & all they do is swap to FOF and carry on.. still hitting, never missing!!
Yes, I use missiles & yes, even i know they're broke & have been for years.
No more sandbox time CCP - time to get the heads out, stop with the new content & fix what is already broken.
Oh, i feel good now after that rant _____________________________________
Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
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Trojanman190
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.08 20:36:00 -
[87]
Was a good rant.
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NightmareX
MAFIA Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.08 21:08:00 -
[88]
Edited by: NightmareX on 08/08/2008 21:08:24
Originally by: whoyoulookingat 3. minny BS v alot... KABLOOM after 30secs!! amarr ripped through its HPS like butter, unable to stop the dmg of any incoming missiles (which affects all races), and just sat in disbelief once in blaster range as my lovely ship got shredded!!
The only thing i will say here, learn to fit your damn Minmatar ships, if you fit your Minmatar ships like a ******, then the Minmatar battleships for example will go down double as fast as other bs'es.
But if you have brain to think with, you will fit up a Tempest for example with a setup that can do LOTS of damage. And when i say damage, i don't really mean the DPS, but i mean like do lots of damage to your cap and that.
I'm sure many of you will say now, but but....omg DPS on the Tempest sucks, how can it win?, and the same with the tank, but but, it can't tank at all, it goes so fast down. It's not all about DPS and tank today.
But i can tell you one thing, if 140k+ damage taken is not much for a Tempest, then i don't know.
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whoyoulookingat
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.08 21:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: NightmareX
But if you have brain to think with, you will fit up a Tempest for example with a setup that can do LOTS of damage. And when i say damage, i don't really mean the DPS, but i mean like do lots of damage to your cap and that.
I'm sure many of you will say now, but but....omg DPS on the Tempest sucks, how can it win?, and the same with the tank, but but, it can't tank at all, it goes so fast down. It's not all about DPS and tank today.
But i can tell you one thing, if 140k+ damage taken is not much for a Tempest, then i don't know.
So you're saying use it as an expensive door stop? NUB!! So lets drop all the guns then & fit neuts and nos... Hey look.. they got no cap left & mine is pretty much full.. except.. I got no dps output!! uh-oh!! but i can tank Now u idiot, read the post again.. 2nd line.. where it said multiple setups used.. yep.. that's the one. I fit ships out so I know what they'll be like "live".. and the main goal is to "SURVIVE".. Yes.. great.. i tanked 140k DPS but still died but i killed... hmm.. none of them!! Was it possible to 1 v 2 or 1v3 or even 1v4 before all these changes ? Yep - with some nifty flying & fitting. Now though ? Well, looking at the replies & all the various posts about minmatar ships, i'd be inclined to think something is seriously wrong But you must know this already for posting such a well thought out response..
**rant mode off ** _____________________________________
Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
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NightmareX
MAFIA Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.08.08 22:29:00 -
[90]
Replying with alts in School of Applied Knowledge wont change anything at all on what i mean and knows about the Tempest and Typhoon.
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