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Tatsue Nuko
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:34:00 -
[91]
Sigh.
I'm going to (once again) try to guide everyone through this whole griefing thing. Why it is difficult to understand that sentence I can't for my life understand because it reads extremely simple to me.
It illustrated the perceived position of a person regarding the fate of his former corporation.
Ponder that line for a moment. Okey.
So Jade was trying to explain the hostility against himself that has been ongoing for quite some time from Davlos. It all started at a given point in time - the Mito conflict - and has since then been a constant. Ergo it seems logical to assume that something in said conflict is the basis for his hostility towards Jade and/or Jade's current and past associates (like myself). Not necessarily that it is 100% of the causes, but it is the root cause that started it, evidently because that was where and when it started. There was no interaction at all between them before that.
So.
To illustrate the cause of the current hostility on part of Davlos versus Jade, the latter then made a post here that illustrated the terror that he (and myself, for that matter) perceive in Davlos as he sees his old nemesis from those wars, whom he has on occassions been stalking and issuing out-of-game threats against, get elected into the CSM. To me it reads quite clearly that the "grief" wording is based on that perception.
It is no different to if a pirate would say "and CarebearX then started crying at the horrible griefer that was trying to ruin all his fun", referring to himself. You know, when those people you attack and ransom get royally upset and seem to think you did it to be mean to them - as opposed to you doing it because you're a pirate.
Or, in the case of Jade and SF, because you're an anarchist that decided to attack a nationalist organization and just happened to be successful in this.
Now WHY is it necessary to post a wall of text to explain something so obvious and simple?
I am starting to lean to the conclusion that it is because people see what they want to see and not what is actually there, just like they read what they want to read and not what was actually intended by the author. I am frankly losing hope of changing that, much to my disappointment.
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:37:00 -
[92]
At every twist and turn, more questions are provoked!
"Jade Constantine, are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"
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Tatsue Nuko
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:38:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Tatsue Nuko on 05/08/2008 01:43:53
Originally by: Joss Sparq At every twist and turn, more questions are provoked!
"Jade Constantine, are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"
Do you oppose the Liberation of the Proletariat?
EDIT: mp3-file, should be streamable through Firefox if you don't want to download.
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Mr Friendly
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:40:00 -
[94]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Let me quote the CSM document for you again:
Quote: representatives are not only expected to uphold the social contract that all society members are held accountable to, butshouldalsosetabehaviorstandardforeveryoneelsetofollow.
EDIT:
You may also be interested in re-reading bullet-point 1. and 2. in the terms of service.
Wait, did you just act like a craven bureaucrat quoting rules and regulations and apply them to private conversations on a private channel?
You did, didn't you
You're acting like a sad little man. Further, I suspect you wouldn't be quoting rules with questionable application at people if you weren't using it as a shield for some deeper axe to grind.
I don't much like Jade, but he's honest about being an ass.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:48:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Wait, did you just act like a craven bureaucrat quoting rules and regulations and apply them to private conversations on a private channel?
You did, didn't you
You're acting like a sad little man. Further, I suspect you wouldn't be quoting rules with questionable application at people if you weren't using it as a shield for some deeper axe to grind.
I don't much like Jade, but he's honest about being an ass.
If you read it in context with the CSM document, it's a quite valid point.
I'm very well aware that you can't actually apply the TOS directly to private convo's. But a CSM member needs a higher social standard. Thus, it could easily be applied for sake of moral.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:49:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Tatsue Nuko Do you oppose the Liberation of the Proletariat?
I knew that was coming sooner or later.
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Tatsue Nuko
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:50:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Tatsue Nuko Do you oppose the Liberation of the Proletariat?
I knew that was coming sooner or later.
Hey, it's like, my finest hour, short of this one.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:52:00 -
[98]
This is why the concept of "eve personalities" getting elected is a farce. Even the ones that weren't elected are just as capable of being petty and argumentative and crass as the ones that were. Verone and Jade, grow up.
I was moderately impressed with the CSM's results from Iceland. I'm certainly not impressed with the people on it, with the exception of Ankesemptakrompertagon (sp?) who has managed to be the only one able to remain civil, and show balls in coming out of their "personal bias" (e.g. complete carebear standing up and saying that the CSM should listen to the PVP public over the nano nerf). The rest are all guilty of either being disingenuous, deceitful, tedious, petty, pointless, at best, while moronic, ignorant and happy to callously manipulate CCP for the lols (yes, Goons and "Ambulation musical instruments2, I'm looking at you), at the worst. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Clinically
Gallente ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:53:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Clinically on 05/08/2008 01:53:50 What an excellent example our CSM representatives are setting to the rest of the playerbase.
________________ Q. How do you clear a system of 400 Northern Monkeys? A. Remind them its not cyno jammed. |
Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.05 01:53:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tatsue Nuko Do you oppose the Liberation of the Proletariat?
EDIT: mp3-file, should be streamable through Firefox if you don't want to download.
Unfortunately, it would appear I am currently on the wrong side of the Iron Firewall of my campus ... hopefully I will be able to defect some time later today.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:02:00 -
[101]
exactly the sentiments why I wouldnt vote for Jade, or anyone on the current CSM for that matter. -
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Mr Friendly
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:04:00 -
[102]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Wait, did you just act like a craven bureaucrat quoting rules and regulations and apply them to private conversations on a private channel?
You did, didn't you
You're acting like a sad little man. Further, I suspect you wouldn't be quoting rules with questionable application at people if you weren't using it as a shield for some deeper axe to grind.
I don't much like Jade, but he's honest about being an ass.
If you read it in context with the CSM document, it's a quite valid point.
I'm very well aware that you can't actually apply the TOS directly to private convo's. But a CSM member needs a higher social standard. Thus, it could easily be applied for sake of moral.
Balls.
I'll take a rude SOB who says what he thinks straight off every time over someone who never shows who they are.
I don't like Jade, and I didn't vote for him. However, I do see minor issues being inflamed into US style smear campaigns.
I have yet to see Jade posting chat logs from other forums in an attempt to discredit them with hand-waving. Instead, he tells his opponents their idiots to their faces. Then proceeds to tell everyone nearby they're idiots as well.
He's consistently entertaining and it's a bit like watching an episode of House.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:04:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari exactly the sentiments why I wouldnt vote for Jade, or anyone on the current CSM for that matter.
this is why I said what I did and why I'll be running not as mothermoon but an alt for the CSM. Then again I don't have much alliance history anyways but oh damn do I have a posting background.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:30:00 -
[104]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/08/2008 02:32:47
Originally by: Tortun Nahme In ur head, trollenz ur thotz!
Hey if I'm elected for the CSM I will push for making forum troll of the year an EON award.
Edit:no joke by the way.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:32:00 -
[105]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Tortun Nahme In ur head, trollenz ur thotz!
Hey if I'm elected for the CSM I will push for making forum troll of the year an EON award.
**** yeah.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Federation Fleet New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:37:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Jade Constantine Must be quite irritating for Davlos to see that his "arch enemy" the anarchist freedom fighter who griefed his little nationalist corp out of the game might get elected as CSM chair for the inaugural session. Eve is full of little ironies.
So you're openly admitting to griefing other players as well now?
And you admit to not griefing, Verone? That's a pretty slippery slope...
Cheers, Jonny D.
If there's anyone in EVE's piracy side who does not and never did grief, it's Verone and Veto.
Ransoming and blowing people up's not griefing.
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Bacchanalian
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ruze Seriously, I think that CSM's should follow the same lease as devs and GM's.
Great idea. Make CCP's player feedback medium give up their rights to play EVE. Brilliant, someone get this man a helmet to prevent him from hurting himself. ____________________ GM Sunshine > oops Neurotica > Hate to see a GM in your gang say 'oops'
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Federation Fleet New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:45:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Yatta I can we have a TL;DR version?
Sure:
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Jonny Damordred
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:47:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Originally by: Jonny Damordred And you admit to not griefing, Verone? That's a pretty slippery slope...
Cheers, Jonny D.
If there's anyone in EVE's piracy side who does not and never did grief, it's Verone and Veto.
Ransoming and blowing people up's not griefing.
Neither are empire wars. Thats the point.
------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy |
Jimer Lins
Gallente Federation Fleet New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:49:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Jonny Damordred
Neither are empire wars. Thats the point.
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing... but I was responding to what you seemed to be implying, which was that Verone was guilty of griefing.
If that's not the case or I misunderstood, my apologies.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:52:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing...
That is, from my experience and the discussions we had at CSM, not really the case. In some cases, it's definitely true. But in many cases, it's a pay-to-grief mechanic.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:53:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Bacchanalian
Originally by: Ruze Seriously, I think that CSM's should follow the same lease as devs and GM's.
Great idea. Make CCP's player feedback medium give up their rights to play EVE. Brilliant, someone get this man a helmet to prevent him from hurting himself.
what are you talking about GMs and devs still play the game, they just don't let people know what thier characters names are. what does your e-peen have to do with representing the community? If your elected as a CSM member it's not about your own personal interests, it's about the interests of the people that elected you, as long as they can still play the game without knowing who could be a CSM member just like not knowing who in goonswarm is a dev it will be fair.
no one is asking the CSM to stop playing the game.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Federation Fleet New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.05 02:59:00 -
[113]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing...
That is, from my experience and the discussions we had at CSM, not really the case. In some cases, it's definitely true. But in many cases, it's a pay-to-grief mechanic.
I agree it's a mechanic that could be abused (and has been, I'm certain).
At least with a war, there's some counters, even if pure grief-play is behind the dec. This thread's not the place to derail on such things, though.
I'd be interested to hear what ideas people might have for countering such abuse of the game mechanic, if it is indeed a significant problem.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:01:00 -
[114]
If the CSM was 1/100th as amusing as the House of Commons I'd have no issues with it.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
F90OEX
F9X
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:01:00 -
[115]
LOL ...
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Nick Curso
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:11:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Zeba If the CSM was 1/100th as amusing as the House of Commons I'd have no issues with it.
Now that is pro smack talk and trolling
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Jonny Damordred
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:17:00 -
[117]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing...
That is, from my experience and the discussions we had at CSM, not really the case. In some cases, it's definitely true. But in many cases, it's a pay-to-grief mechanic.
CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."
Stop whining and grief something, its the EvE Online way.
Cheers, Jonny D. ------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy |
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:21:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Bacchanalian on 05/08/2008 03:21:41
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing...
That is, from my experience and the discussions we had at CSM, not really the case. In some cases, it's definitely true. But in many cases, it's a pay-to-grief mechanic.
Wow. I have even less confidence in the CSM as a body to have a bloody clue about EVE. ____________________ GM Sunshine > oops Neurotica > Hate to see a GM in your gang say 'oops'
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:28:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Bacchanalian Edited by: Bacchanalian on 05/08/2008 03:21:41
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Well, I agree that empire wars aren't griefing...
That is, from my experience and the discussions we had at CSM, not really the case. In some cases, it's definitely true. But in many cases, it's a pay-to-grief mechanic.
Wow. I have even less confidence in the CSM as a body to have a bloody clue about EVE.
then VOTE NEXT TIME!
the CSM are nothing but players like yourself, and as such it's up to you to pick which ones think the way you do. and such give you a rep at CCP. it's all about getting the wishes of the players to CCP. So if you don't like it vote next time for someone that agrees with you.
also don't expect every members of the CSM to agree with your point of view or for the view of one member to represent the views of every other members on the CSM. The whole point is that each member sees a situation differently. So you in fact don't have less confidence in the CSM, you have less confidence in LaVista Vista.
Originally by: Dapanman1 Terrible idea, you're an idiot
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Jonny Damordred
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.05 03:31:00 -
[120]
Originally by: MotherMoon then VOTE NEXT TIME!
I did, and Jade is living up to my expectations with my approval.
Cheers, Jonny D. ------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy |
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