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Oveur
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Posted - 2004.06.01 14:52:00 -
[1]
You can find the internal testing document here, it contains the changes that need to be tested.
There will be a document made that more compactly define the rules that govern Empire space.
_____________________________
I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
mahhy
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Posted - 2004.06.01 15:18:00 -
[2]
Is it just the way I'm reading this or does it mean that the Gang Agression stuff is actually expanded? Now you don't need to wait for your gang mates to be attacked by their enemies, you can simply join in the fun right away?
Or am I missing something?
- What happens if the last person to join the gang is the person with corp wars? Then none of the other gang mates are included in the freely attackable mode?
- How does this tie into the previous rules about being in the same grid when agression starts and such?
My head hurts after reading all those cases...
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.06.01 15:55:00 -
[3]
How does this work against NPC's? A lot of Players have -5.0% and lower standing to certain Empires and when they enter their Space the NPC Police automaticly fires on them and if you shoot back the Sentry's kill you...
and after you have done enough Agent Missions you end up being forced to one or two parts of the universe...
the amarr empire have -5.0% to minmatar character, then he will be criminal flagged in amarr space and not in minmatar space becouse they got him as +%5.0?
"We brake for nobody"
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2004.06.01 16:05:00 -
[4]
WOW !! 
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.06.01 16:28:00 -
[5]
And no mention of jet cans or ore
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.06.01 17:09:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 01/06/2004 17:18:11
Edited by: Mon Palae on 01/06/2004 17:14:58
 Originally by: mahhy
Is it just the way I'm reading this or does it mean that the Gang Agression stuff is actually expanded? Now you don't need to wait for your gang mates to be attacked by their enemies, you can simply join in the fun right away?
Or am I missing something?
- What happens if the last person to join the gang is the person with corp wars? Then none of the other gang mates are included in the freely attackable mode?
Yes, it seems the whole point of the flagging system is to allow you to shoot back at someone's gang regardless if they shoot at you first without getting a sec hit to yourself or have CONCORD come kick your ass. At least this would be the case in many scenarios.
The way I read it is if anyone in your gang is at war (officially) with another corp then everyone in the gang is freely attackable by those warring corps.
Couple of questions:
1) If someone is in a gang where someone else in the gang is at war and the opposing warring corp comes by and attacks what happens if those not at war simply drop from the gang? Do they instantly become non-targets? If so there is HUGE possibilty for exploits here (missiles on their way to you while you were a legitimate target for instance but you drop from the gang before they arrive).
2) If someone (one person) in a gang attacks you and you return fire on just the person who shot do his gangmates get to freely attack you? Do all the gangmates in the attacker's gang become legitimate targets but they have to hold fire (if they wish to avoid a sec hit or CONCORD reprisals) till you attack them directly? Possible exploit again. Simply have an ALT in your gang initiate the attack to take the sec hit and let the group go to town on the target for 'free'.
3) Define better 'ownership' of items. Are jet cans owned? Are loot drops 'owned'? Is there a time limit (if applicable) to how long a loot can/jet can sits before it is fair game to anyone? Is opening a can (any can) a way to get flagged or do the items need to be damaged for flagging to occur?
#3 I can see real issues with and am of two minds on it. On the one side this helps finally give ore thieves a much deserved chance of getting killed. On the other you can see exploits written all over this (drop a jet can by a newb station and wait for some unsuspecting newb to go check it out and blast him when he gets flagged).
I'm sure there are other questions but this will do for now.
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Schizophrenia
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Posted - 2004.06.01 17:38:00 -
[7]
Sounds too complicated to me.
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Jael
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Posted - 2004.06.01 19:09:00 -
[8]
WARNING: seriously anal proofreading ahead.
Reading the testing doc., there are a couple of typos in the doc. that you might want to look at before release:
- Penalty is misspelt penality in all the green error messages.
- In the warnings for aiding, "activates an aid on" should probably use the appropriate preposition: "activates an aid to".
The criminal flagging stuff looks fun.
------------=o0O+O0o=------------
Peg Wench
Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar
The Finest Camels in all EVE!
Come into my tent...
O0o=------------+------------=o0O |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.01 20:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hakera on 01/06/2004 20:05:38
Originally by: Mon Palae
- What happens if the last person to join the gang is the person with corp wars? Then none of the other gang mates are included in the freely attackable mode?
they are the second the new player with a war joins. Unless they aggress individually by themselves.
Quote:
Yes, it seems the whole point of the flagging system is to allow you to shoot back at someone's gang regardless if they shoot at you first without getting a sec hit to yourself or have CONCORD come kick your ass. At least this would be the case in many scenarios.
no, only if the opposition is at war with any of your gang members or one of your gang carries a criminal flag applicable to that player/corp.
Quote:
The way I read it is if anyone in your gang is at war (officially) with another corp then everyone in the gang is freely attackable by those warring corps.
correct
Quote:
1) If someone is in a gang where someone else in the gang is at war and the opposing warring corp comes by and attacks what happens if those not at war simply drop from the gang? Do they instantly become non-targets? If so there is HUGE possibilty for exploits here (missiles on their way to you while you were a legitimate target for instance but you drop from the gang before they arrive).
15min timer before the flag is removed.
Quote:
2) If someone (one person) in a gang attacks you and you return fire on just the person who shot do his gangmates get to freely attack you? Do all the gangmates in the attacker's gang become legitimate targets but they have to hold fire (if they wish to avoid a sec hit or CONCORD reprisals) till you attack them directly? Possible exploit again. Simply have an ALT in your gang initiate the attack to take the sec hit and let the group go to town on the target for 'free'.
the way I understand it, there is no more gang defence, if you shoot another player, you get flagged against him and his corp, your gangmates will be unable to help you without getting falgged themselves.
Quote:
3) Define better 'ownership' of items. Are jet cans owned? Are loot drops 'owned'? Is there a time limit (if applicable) to how long a loot can/jet can sits before it is fair game to anyone? Is opening a can (any can) a way to get flagged or do the items need to be damaged for flagging to occur?
I believe this applies to drones and ships only.
Quote:
#3 I can see real issues with and am of two minds on it. On the one side this helps finally give ore thieves a much deserved chance of getting killed. On the other you can see exploits written all over this (drop a jet can by a newb station and wait for some unsuspecting newb to go check it out and blast him when he gets flagged).
This does not cover jet cans afaik
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Tevgor Remal
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Posted - 2004.06.01 20:04:00 -
[10]
Three questions here:
1) How can you become criminal flagged to a specific player? The cases listed only result in either being flagged criminal to a corporation or to everyone.
2) And in addition to the first question of Mon Palae, what happens if one player from gang A is at war with players from gang B while all others members of A are not, and now this player leaves gang A?
3) And finally, why does criminal flagging not hold everywhere? This would make the system a bit simpler and I dont think it's too harsh. Can someone explain the reason behind this? |
Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.06.01 21:09:00 -
[11]
Oveur could you clarify some points for me.
As far as I can work out, in my hungover state. This basically means if somebody does something bad, for example:
Gate ganking in .4 space such as Aunenen (or any space), then a you could fire upon these pirates without retribution from static defenses or police forces.
And there are 3 types of criminal flagging, your corp against individual, personal and then enviromental (ie doing something bad).
In the case of the corp against individual, would the person who is flagged be able to engage the said corp before they start shooting at them.
So say a corp doesn't like a person because they destroyed an indy. So they flag them as a criminal so all corp members know who said person is and therefore can they fire upon said indy killer. In reverse would the indy killer be able to open fire upon contact with the corp first?
Would this also open a career (if someone should choose so) of patrolling systems dispensing justice to those who are criminally flagged?
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.06.01 21:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Bella Verde on 01/06/2004 21:44:10
What about people who just dont use a gang, and then use shield transfer modules etc on their friends? You cant shoot at them...
edit: ah, I see, if you do something like remote sensor boost or shield transfer, you are criminal flagged to his enemies then, right?
Now, this would only apply to empire space, right? If someone attacks you in 0.0 you cannot flag them in empire?
and I dont get this paragraph: Quote:
When an owner is criminal flagged to another owner, they are not criminal flagged everywhere/in every solar system throughout the game. It just applies in the solar system where the criminal flagging occurred. However, if the owner flagged towards others travels between solar systems his criminal flaggings travel with him in addition to being left behind.
I dont quite get that...
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.01 21:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bella Verde
What about people who just dont use a gang, and then use shield transfer modules etc on their friends? You cant shoot at them...
if you assist someone aggressing you become an eligible target to them.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.01 21:31:00 -
[14]
Oveur,
Should Tracking/Sensor links and ECM projectors not be counted as aiding as well as sheild/cap transfer arrays?
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.06.01 21:48:00 -
[15]
Dealing with the gangs, if someone is in a gang with your war enemies as well as criminal flagged enemies, and then leaves, is he criminal flagged for 15 minutes? I may have missed that.
And updating the autoscanner with these things will be almost neccesary, adding in options such as "globally criminal flagged", "corp crimininal flagged", and "attackable".
Also will these changes apply to freelancers? Meaning, can you have personal criminal flagging? Again, I may have missed that.
But very, very nice changes! 
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Klam
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Posted - 2004.06.01 23:32:00 -
[16]
Reading the document can be confusing to a non-Tester. I'm actually a tester for a living. I have to write documents like this... So hopefully I can be of some help. (No, not with CCP. Though, I'd certainly entertain brining over some of my "Yank" experiences if they were hiring. Finding work in the UK for a Yank can be tricky sometimes.)
First thing to realize for someone who's a bit confused is this:
!There will be new warning pop-ups to prevent accidently flagging yourself as criminal!
!There will also be warning pop-ups for the Gangs at War thing.!
The idea is that players won't need to memorize all these strange conditions. Because of this... Be Glad There Is a Patch Delay! It will give the testers more time to find problems and possible exploits. A system this complicated is bound not to be 100% perfect. And yet this is some very important flagging.
Another thing to remember:
If you do get criminally flagged (due to an accident or a bug) it only lasts 15 minutes from your last criminal activity. You may have lost a little Sec Status Too.... but you aren't forever a criminal.
Hope this calms some fears.
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Kellyl
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Posted - 2004.06.01 23:44:00 -
[17]
Quote:
oActivate an offensive module on a target will result in you being criminal flagged to everyone.
So if player A commits agrression at player B in empire space, Player A is crimanlly flagged to all players? Or just player B?
Or am i mistaken?
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.06.02 02:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kellyl
Quote:
oActivate an offensive module on a target will result in you being criminal flagged to everyone.
So if player A commits agrression at player B in empire space, Player A is crimanlly flagged to all players? Or just player B?
Or am i mistaken?
It would seem to everyone. Otherwise it is no different than now. Some attacks you today the game allows to to freely shoot back.
Seems to me though that missing criminal flagging on jet and loot cans is a HUGE oversight. Kestrel rapists need not gang with fellow gankers. They do their thing and their un-ganged buddy in a nearby hauler swoops in and scoops the loot. Unless your escort wants to lose their ship protecting your can there is nothing they can do but watch (and maybe gather what little they can). Granted, changes to missiles may put a stop to Kestrel ganks in Empire but the point still remains.
I love the new flagging changes and they are needed. I just don't think they go far enough is all without accounting for cans in some fashion (any type of can).
I am still unclear on one thing though:
AttackPerson-A in GangAttack-A attacks DefensePerson-B in GangDefense-B.
Do ALL members of GangAttack-A get a criminal flag? If so are they free to attack at this point just as if they were the one who initiated aggression?
If ALL of GangAttack-A is not flagged because one of their number attacked what happens when DefensePerson-B attacks AttackPerson-A? Does the rest of GangAttack-A get a 'free' attack on DefensePerson-B? Or even everyone in GangDefense-B?
If a whole gang gets flagged does CONCORD try to kick their asses too or just the aggression initiator?
There are other permutations but my head already hurts keeping track of it. Hopefully you get the questions.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.02 06:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mon Palae
Originally by: Kellyl
Quote:
oActivate an offensive module on a target will result in you being criminal flagged to everyone.
So if player A commits agrression at player B in empire space, Player A is crimanlly flagged to all players? Or just player B?
Or am i mistaken?
It would seem to everyone. Otherwise it is no different than now. Some attacks you today the game allows to to freely shoot back.
Seems to me though that missing criminal flagging on jet and loot cans is a HUGE oversight. Kestrel rapists need not gang with fellow gankers. They do their thing and their un-ganged buddy in a nearby hauler swoops in and scoops the loot. Unless your escort wants to lose their ship protecting your can there is nothing they can do but watch (and maybe gather what little they can). Granted, changes to missiles may put a stop to Kestrel ganks in Empire but the point still remains.
I love the new flagging changes and they are needed. I just don't think they go far enough is all without accounting for cans in some fashion (any type of can).
I am still unclear on one thing though:
AttackPerson-A in GangAttack-A attacks DefensePerson-B in GangDefense-B.
Do ALL members of GangAttack-A get a criminal flag? If so are they free to attack at this point just as if they were the one who initiated aggression?
If ALL of GangAttack-A is not flagged because one of their number attacked what happens when DefensePerson-B attacks AttackPerson-A? Does the rest of GangAttack-A get a 'free' attack on DefensePerson-B? Or even everyone in GangDefense-B?
If a whole gang gets flagged does CONCORD try to kick their asses too or just the aggression initiator?
There are other permutations but my head already hurts keeping track of it. Hopefully you get the questions.
gang defence will be removed with this patch, if you are attacked by players in a gang (who arte not at war with you), that is a single aggression per player against you and therefore a global flag will be placed on each aggressor.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.02 06:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hakera on 02/06/2004 06:52:42
Oveur,
Some people on Eve-I brought up a good point,
what if you get 10 people with 3 war decs each who gang up, that gives them 30 corps as valid targets.
For eg, a merc corp or pirate corp wanting to attack everyone in an area could see who lives there and declare on all of them indivually and then gang up to get valid targets for everyone.
I know 30 corps should have a chance of fighting back and defending, but could be used in a nasty way.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Del Narveux
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Posted - 2004.06.02 08:57:00 -
[21]
So, lemme get this straight, im sorta tired and that doc was looong...say we have this situation:
Players A, B, C, and D are ganged and camping a gate at, say, Aunenen. A, B, and C are warships, D is an indy hauling loot and stuff. A is being supported by B, who is being supported by C. D isnt doing anything, just standing by.
Along comes players E, F, and G, not ganged. Player A attacks player E. Player F begins supporting player E.
None of the players are in corps at war with anyone.
So:
1. Player E can attack players A, B, C, and D with no sec loss/Concord rape.
2. Players A-D can now attack player F with no additional sec loss/Concord rape. (not that it matters...)
3. Player G can now attack players A-D with no sec loss/Concord rape.
Is this correct? As this reflects a lot of the problems currently associated with fighting gatecampers, especially #3.
_________________
[SAK] And Proud Of It!
aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Martinus Crimson
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Posted - 2004.06.02 09:41:00 -
[22]
1. Yes they are able todo that.
2. No if i understood correct Player F is aiding a innocent player so player F cannot be freely attacked by A - D
3. If players A-D are all criminal flagged to everyone YEs they can. But if only Player A engages and Players B-D don't aid him or help him then you can only attack player A. Unless offcourse you thier in a gang same corp... ect ect ect
Sorry to say but i feel a ****LOAD of workarounds comming up ...
Like player A-D all from different corporations .. Not Ganged All engaging different targets. Tho i have to admit .. the survival chance is slim. Tho there is chance enough.
-----------------------
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.06.02 12:18:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hakera on 02/06/2004 12:20:35
In retrospect, I am against the gang member/war bit. i would prefer gangs to be left out totally and no gang defence as that is already removed.
There just seems to be too many 'what ifs' with that part of the aggression system and scanner bugs.
Unless in the same grid, you have no idea who your war enemies are ganged with (especially empire wars) until you enter the grid, and then you start to get situations with people leaving the gangs and members not checking the flag combined with the usual scanner bugs with incorrect caching of player status on it (many times I get an outlaw flag on inncoent players) and the inevitable bugs with scanner refresh once a flag is gone.
For eg, if a player leaves a gang at war and is not at war himself, but stays in the grid, the battle ensues for 15mins, he loses his flag and someone shoots him (kiss goodbye to their ship)
There are just too many holes with that imo.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.06.02 14:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hakera
Edited by: Hakera on 02/06/2004 06:52:42
Oveur,
Some people on Eve-I brought up a good point,
what if you get 10 people with 3 war decs each who gang up, that gives them 30 corps as valid targets.
For eg, a merc corp or pirate corp wanting to attack everyone in an area could see who lives there and declare on all of them indivually and then gang up to get valid targets for everyone.
I know 30 corps should have a chance of fighting back and defending, but could be used in a nasty way.
As far as I can tell, this would make the whole gang attackable by any of the corps, but you can still only attack the corps you are personaly at war with.
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Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.06.02 18:34:00 -
[25]
Another question: Lets say Person A is criminal flagged towards Corporation B ONLY. Can he legally attack Corporation B within sight of sentries/CONCORD? He's essentially not really a criminal, just a criminal in the eyes of Corp B.
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Deionarra
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Posted - 2004.06.02 19:39:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Deionarra on 02/06/2004 19:41:50
Edited by: Deionarra on 02/06/2004 19:40:57
Originally by: Bella Verde
Another question: Lets say Person A is criminal flagged towards Corporation B ONLY. Can he legally attack Corporation B within sight of sentries/CONCORD? He's essentially not really a criminal, just a criminal in the eyes of Corp B.
As I understand it person A would not be able to attack anyone in corp B unless they were criminal flagged towards him or his corp or were an outlaw or globaly criminal tagged, otherwise concord/sentries would attack as normal. So basicaly he could only fire at any of those corp members who attack him. Criminals can't attack inocents just because those people don't like them
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Xailia
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Posted - 2004.06.03 03:08:00 -
[27]
The timeout on the criminal flagging is odd... It would be more logical to have different times based on the severity of the action.
For Example:
- Shoot some property
15 min timeout
- Damage a ship
15m - 1h timeout depending on damage inflicted
- Destroy Property
2 hour timeout
- Destory Ship/Steal Property
1 week - 1 month timeout depending on value of the ship or property stolen
Or am I missing something? 
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel." |
lickspittle
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Posted - 2004.06.03 10:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lao Tzu
And no mention of jet cans or ore
No, you are right, there is not. It was part of this, but it was removed for now and will be added later.
-- Richard
CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion. |
lickspittle
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Posted - 2004.06.03 10:37:00 -
[29]
Edited by: lickspittle on 03/06/2004 10:39:00
Originally by: Mon Palae
Yes, it seems the whole point of the flagging system is to allow you to shoot back at someone's gang regardless if they shoot at you first without getting a sec hit to yourself or have CONCORD come kick your ass. At least this would be the case in many scenarios.
The way I read it is if anyone in your gang is at war (officially) with another corp then everyone in the gang is freely attackable by those warring corps.
Correct.
The gang war part is however, a small part of the whole.
Originally by: Mon Palae
1) If someone is in a gang where someone else in the gang is at war and the opposing warring corp comes by and attacks what happens if those not at war simply drop from the gang? Do they instantly become non-targets? If so there is HUGE possibilty for exploits here (missiles on their way to you while you were a legitimate target for instance but you drop from the gang before they arrive).
The act of firing the missile at the target is an offensive action. So, the engagement would have already begun with no penalties when the target was still in the gang and the missile was launched.
Originally by: Mon Palae
2) If someone (one person) in a gang attacks you and you return fire on just the person who shot do his gangmates get to freely attack you? Do all the gangmates in the attacker's gang become legitimate targets but they have to hold fire (if they wish to avoid a sec hit or CONCORD reprisals) till you attack them directly? Possible exploit again. Simply have an ALT in your gang initiate the attack to take the sec hit and let the group go to town on the target for 'free'.
Gang membership does not give you any right to defend your fellow gang members. I believe given that, this question is moot.
Originally by: Mon Palae
3) Define better 'ownership' of items. Are jet cans owned? Are loot drops 'owned'? Is there a time limit (if applicable) to how long a loot can/jet can sits before it is fair game to anyone? Is opening a can (any can) a way to get flagged or do the items need to be damaged for flagging to occur?
Whenever you jettison something it is still owned by you. Sometimes you have the option to launch something for your corporation, in that case its owned by your corporation.
The rest of your question is blind speculation. There is nothing in the testing document about cargo containers being part of the system because they aren't any more than object ownership is as it applies to all objects in space.
Cargo container contraband and criminal flagging is a later addition to the system.
-- Richard
CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion. |
Albus
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Posted - 2004.06.03 10:39:00 -
[30]
Are there any changes planned to the colour flagging of ships on the screen/auto-scanner, to go with this aggresion system? The reason I ask is that I can see it being very hard to work out who you are allowed to shoot, as there is currently no way to see who is ganged with who.
For example:
Player A is in Corp A
Player B is in Corp B
Corp A is at war with Corp B
Player A is ganged with 5 members of Corp C
My understanding is that the members of corp C will inherit the war that corp A has, due to their ganging with player A. This means that player B can attack those members of corp C without problem and vice versa. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
My point is that there is currently no way of player B knowing that those members of corp C are ganged with player A. On his scanner player A will show up as Orange, but the members of corp C might be neutral or even friendly, so will be a different colour. He would think he is up against one enemy, then suddenly all those neutral people open fire.
So the orange war flagging needs to be visibly transferred to all members of the gang otherwise it is going to get hideously confusing.
I was also wondering if this principle could be applied to other standing settings, which would be very useful for PvP in 0.0 space. For example, player A has a standing of -10 set for player B, either personally or via corp. Player B is ganged with 5 members of corp C. In my opinion the members of corp 5 should gain an effective standing of -10 towards player A, due to their gang with player B.
If there are conflicting standings, where one member of a gang is +10 towards you and one is -10 towards you, for example, then perhaps a preferences option could let you set whether positive standings or the negative standings are the deciding factor. A war flag would of course always be inherited.
Any thoughts?
(Crossposted in the general forum thread cos I only just found this one)
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