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Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.07 22:26:00 - [91] Originally by: Transmaniacon http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333 I love how they shut up about this after that. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:06:00 - [92] I hate to be a naysayer but this is really weird. First you state the pilot has max skills but he does not in fact have max skills because so he's using T1 guns on the abby. The abby tank looks good, high hp and balanced out resists to all types good against autocannons, but you set up the maelstrom to fail by specifically selecting a ship that uses its weakest resist and only giving it invulnerability fields to defend against it. if abbadon thinks about shooting let alone running the MWD it will eat up boosters to no end and can only carry 19 iirc although if it has a cargofull of 800 charges without containers it can only carry 1 extra set of crystals. In your DPS comparison you don't mention that laser tracking gets worse the closer you are to it so when maelstrom is at its best position to deal damage abbadon will be doing less. Also since this is all hypothetic nonsense it's even more confusing and pointless because you are not facing these two off with 2 differant pilots that are skilled (sp and in practice) with either of the ships on tranquility you are doing it on the forum with made up best case scenario #s which I will accept are accurate since I assume you pulled this off EFT which is a innovative and useful program. Also with the armor rigs it will slow down the abby, with the impending speed changes it will be a lot slower especially with the rigs. I hate to say it but : obvious troll is obvious
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:12:00 - [93] Originally by: diabolic clone with made up best case scenario #s which I will accept are accurate since I assume you pulled this off EFT which is a innovative and useful program. EFT actually calculates damage in falloff incorrectly because it doesn't take into account that hit quality depends upon hit chance. Falloff has two effects (while EFT only shows the first): - Lowers chance to hit - Lowers amount per hit When it says you'll be doing 350 DPS you'll actually be doing about 250 (in one specific example). Read the link on the front page for more information. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:16:00 - [94] Originally by: diabolic clone I hate to be a naysayer but this is really weird. First you state the pilot has max skills but he does not in fact have max skills because so he's using T1 guns on the abby. No, both pilots have max skills, I just downgraded the guns to t1 for giggles Quote: The abby tank looks good, high hp and balanced out resists to all types good against autocannons, but you set up the maelstrom to fail by specifically selecting a ship that uses its weakest resist and only giving it invulnerability fields to defend against it. Did you read the whole post? The mael and the abaddon aren't fighting each other, I'm comparing them in a role which they are both said to excel at. Quote: if abbadon thinks about shooting let alone running the MWD it will eat up boosters to no end and can only carry 19 iirc although if it has a cargofull of 800 charges without containers it can only carry 1 extra set of crystals. The cap usage on the mael's tank is astronomical and uses the same, if not more boosters than the abaddon while still needing to carry a bunch of different ammo types. Quote: In your DPS comparison you don't mention that laser tracking gets worse the closer you are to it so when maelstrom is at its best position to deal damage abbadon will be doing less. I did mention tracking. However this isn't a 1v1. The Abaddon isn't fighting the maelstrom. Quote: Also since this is all hypothetic nonsense it's even more confusing and pointless because you are not facing these two off with 2 differant pilots that are skilled (sp and in practice) with either of the ships on tranquility you are doing it on the forum with made up best case scenario #s which I will accept are accurate since I assume you pulled this off EFT which is a innovative and useful program. Quite a sentence there. Same pilots, max skills, assuming the same ship handling skills. Again, the t1 guns were for giggles and to prove a point. I could give the abby t2 guns, but that doesn't prove my point as well. Quote: Also with the armor rigs it will slow down the abby, with the impending speed changes it will be a lot slower especially with the rigs. It's not that much slower than the mael. The mael also gets a big sig radius due to it's rigs. Quote: I hate to say it but : obvious troll is obvious The t1-gun fitted abaddon out-preforms the maelstrom and I'm called a troll? If I was trolling, I'd make the mael fit a warp disruptor and give the abaddon t2 guns. I'd point and say overpowered/underpowered but it doesn't quite have the same effect. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. This means you Boz, Branko, Trojan, Liang, and everyone else I
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.07 23:52:00 - [95] Sorry for the troll comment, stupid of me to make assumptions I tend to lope quote trainers into troll category which is wrong. Let me try to get this right, comparing their tank vs DPS in a gang situation, are you comparing two gangs against eachother or the battleship against multiple opponents?
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Amandin Adouin Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 07/08/2008 22:17:12 Am I the only one who knows what the freakin color pink is?!!! The Paladin = pink (ok maybe just when using the old graphics) Radio Waves = pink Get it straight. Geez. Edit: How's your cactus? ;) It's magenta (at best)! I still say it's more of a dark, manly red.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:05:00 - [97] Originally by: Boz Well It's magenta (at best)! I still say it's more of a dark, manly red. Manly red? How red is manly red? How manly is it? Anyway, for Diabolic clone, I'd just like to pitch in this... The Abaddon is the superior tank and superior damage dealer. It just can't quite be both at the same time.
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:07:00 - [98] Trying to be a little more constructive both have trade offs, both are weak against cap warfare the abbaddons guns will turn off and its a tank to survive the fight if that happens, maelstroms tank turns off in the situation but it still does respectable damage. Gang situation you have to account for whats on both teams so kinda hard to ask your question of which one to pick I'd take the abaddon since it has a ECCM on it.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:14:00 - [99] Originally by: diabolic clone Trying to be a little more constructive both have trade offs, both are weak against cap warfare the abbaddons guns will turn off and its a tank to survive the fight if that happens, maelstroms tank turns off in the situation but it still does respectable damage. Gang situation you have to account for whats on both teams so kinda hard to ask your question of which one to pick I'd take the abaddon since it has a ECCM on it. Yup. And do remember that this is with t1 guns, so t2 guns will be epic lulz. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. This means you Boz, Branko, Trojan, Liang, and everyone else I
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:14:00 - [100] Originally by: diabolic clone Trying to be a little more constructive both have trade offs, both are weak against cap warfare the abbaddons guns will turn off and its a tank to survive the fight if that happens, maelstroms tank turns off in the situation but it still does respectable damage. Gang situation you have to account for whats on both teams so kinda hard to ask your question of which one to pick I'd take the abaddon since it has a ECCM on it. Good man. I still say that the lows need to be re-designated a bit though. Also, I keep proposing that everyone against this whole Minmatar-nerfing switch away from flying minnie ships completely for a long while. Enough that people, and the developers, begin noticing. I'm talking to the extent where you even give up your thrasher and get some other destroyer for salvaging. We need to show them how they've botched this completely. If only the player community or the people of the same opinion could just get some medium to voice together, maybe the devs wouldn't be quite so 'Well, this is a nice and elegant suggestion, but we've put so much work into this idea of ours, so let's just go with that instead'.
Amandin Adouin	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:16:00 - [101] Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 08/08/2008 00:18:00 Originally by: Boz Well It's magenta (at best)! I still say it's more of a dark, manly red. A dark manly red? oooh ;) Edit: Crap, Astro already kicked me outta this thread. oops. Sorry Astro =)
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:23:00 - [102] Edit for offensiveness?
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:24:00 - [103] Oh I forgot about the t1 guns so used to having T2, no I'd take the maelstrom over the abby any day and switch out the drones and probably the MWD for another shield boost amp since it can use barrage. when I can't break a maelstrom tank fast it gets demoralizing and I'd probably drop a brick in my pants if his shields started going back up at some point instead of slightly going down when he's near peak regen.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:24:00 - [104] Originally by: Boz Well Edit for offensiveness? /me points to sig __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. This means you Boz, Branko, Trojan, Liang, and everyone else I
Amandin Adouin	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:24:00 - [105] I can't delete the whole comment.
diabolic clone Amarr Anomaly Collective	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:46:00 - [106] Originally by: Boz Well Edit for offensiveness? If you mean me, I will edit it if Astrophobic asks since he has the right to be offended I'd do it out of respect. EVE is about being human, humans make mistakes. I acknowledged mine and said sorry I don't see a reason to cover it up I do not play for a popularity contest.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:51:00 - [107] Originally by: diabolic clone Originally by: Boz Well Edit for offensiveness? If you mean me, I will edit it if Astrophobic asks since he has the right to be offended I'd do it out of respect. EVE is about being human, humans make mistakes. I acknowledged mine and said sorry I don't see a reason to cover it up I do not play for a popularity contest. No, I think he meant amanda. You speak your mind, care less what you call me. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. This means you Boz, Branko, Trojan, Liang, and everyone else I
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.08 01:35:00 - [108] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Transmaniacon http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333 I love how they shut up about this after that. :) -Liang soz, i had better htings to do than argue about hit quality at this point. Also, the linked topic seems to tell me absolutly nothing... but whatever. Maybe you could tell me in simple terms then. If hit quality scales with falloff, then why bother having any chance to hit past optimal+falloff? If they are just gonna be misses anyway...
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 02:31:00 - [109] I don't understand your not understanding. Hit at optimal - hits scale from 1.5 (excellent) to 0.5 (barely scratch, evening out at 1.0 multiplier, with a 1% chance of a 3x multiplier, bringing your DPS to be 102% at optimal due to hit quality. Hits at optimal + falloff - 50% damage is done due to falloff. Hit quality - ranges from 1.0 to 0.5 averaging out at .75 multiplier. Add in the 1% chance again for a 3.0 multiplier, which brings it to be around .77 average. .77(.5) = ~ .385 In lamens terms, you're doing 38.5% of your EFT DPS at optimal + falloff. At 9 billion KM away, you have a very very small chance to hit, but it will always be a wreck. (I was working on my stupid essay and one of the ads was for eve online. Just as I started to focus. FFS.) __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 02:34:00 - [110] Originally by: AstroPhobic I don't understand your not understanding. Hit at optimal - hits scale from 1.5 (excellent) to 0.5 (barely scratch, evening out at 1.0 multiplier, with a 1% chance of a 3x multiplier, bringing your DPS to be 102% at optimal due to hit quality. Hits at optimal + falloff - 50% damage is done due to falloff. Hit quality - ranges from 1.0 to 0.5 averaging out at .75 multiplier. Add in the 1% chance again for a 3.0 multiplier, which brings it to be around .77 average. .77(.5) = ~ .385 In lamens terms, you're doing 38.5% of your EFT DPS at optimal + falloff. At 9 billion KM away, you have a very very small chance to hit, but it will always be a wreck. (I was working on my stupid essay and one of the ads was for eve online. Just as I started to focus. FFS.) Essay on the intricacies of tempests and cacti?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 02:39:00 - [111] Originally by: Boz Well Essay on the intricacies of tempests and cacti? Moment of inertia when applied to sports. It's pretty interesting, though I don't even understand half of it. I aced my physics exam and it's still fuzzy to me. Nike's new square driver.. uses the high moment of inertia (460cc something... hell) when combined with the square shape leaves the sweet spot to be big and very forgiving if you miss it just a bit off the mark. I wish I could see a bit more on baseball (especially the new composite bats, they sound like they're dead..) but it doesn't seem like it's as prominent, or at least public... Wait, you thread derailers you! I'll have none of it! __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 02:43:00 - [112] Back on topic then! Laserstrom pew pew!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 02:44:00 - [113] Originally by: Boz Well Back on topic then! Laserstrom pew pew! Boost projectiles kthxbai. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.08 03:02:00 - [114] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Boz Well Back on topic then! Laserstrom pew pew! Boost projectiles kthxbai. No nerf lazors... wait no! Malestorm needs MOAR GRID to fit tachys!
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.08 03:03:00 - [115] Originally by: AstroPhobic Boost projectiles kthxbai. They suck, them reiterations, don't they do, those reiterations do suck don't reiterations suck don't they, them reiterations suck, do they not...? ... So, why'd you rather go with eight pulsers than six tachyons and two heavy NOS? On an Abaddon, that is.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 03:11:00 - [116] Originally by: Spaztick Laser fitted maels do more damage than AC fitted maels, news at 11. This doesn't seem to shock anyone either. Fitting a cap booster isn't exactly hard, we have all the uber utility slots... zomg. *AstroPhobic beckons the trolls to approach __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 03:12:00 - [117] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 08/08/2008 03:12:30 Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: AstroPhobic One mid > 2 highs? Plus, I like mah DPS. Even at the cost of flexible range? Da. 45km with scorch, you don't need anything else. If you're firing from a longer range than that, you're doing it wrongÖ. Edit: Plus all the tracking. __________________________________________ Join channel "Salvage Minmatar" for minmatar fixing solutions and OT discussion. Oh hell, it's all offtopic.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.08 03:21:00 - [118] Originally by: AstroPhobic Da. 45km with scorch, you don't need anything else. If you're firing from a longer range than that, you're doing it wrongÖ. Edit: Plus all the tracking. Ohshi-! I hadn't thought about that. But I still claim that unless you're in a cruise Raven after the patch goes through, you're going to need a NOS.
Clueless Alt	Posted - 2008.08.08 06:25:00 - [119] Laz0rstrom of love!
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.08 06:44:00 - [120] So many posts saying "i'd take the abaddon!" well yes, if you're in your right mind you would, thats the purpose of the post. Astro (whom i now fully endorse) has presented the statistics and reasoning why minmitar BS are baaaaad. Even if you half ass your Amarr (in this case atleast) bs, you'll out perform a relatively well fit, well skilled minmitar bs pilot. This is a sad state of affairs. On the other hand, it makes me the much more excited about cross training amarr instead of minmitar finally

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