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Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:32:00 - [1] Lets get something out of the way. Yes, I was a nano Ishtar pilot. I wasn't a very GOOD one but I did fly one. Lost more Ishtars in the 3 months that I flew them then I did in a year of flying domi's. Do I think nano's were overpowered? in my hands, not a chance in hell. In the hands of the 5 year old players with poly carbs, snakes, boosters and all that other crap...maybe. Anyway, on to the point of this post. With all of the nano nerf whine threads floating around, almost all of them share something in common. There is someone that is talking about some magical time long ago where HAC's didn't nano. I'll admit, I have only been playing for about a year so I am thinking this was before my time. With the nano Ishtar being killed by the nerf I began thinking of other ways to use the ship. I didn't really want the 25 days I spent training gal cruiser to 5 to be a total waste and resign myself back to a BS. So I broke out EFT and started messing around with some fits. the first thing that came to mind was "I bet it would make a pretty decent sentry sniper/long range drone support boat. Well, My suspicion was right. It does fill that role nicely. But then I encountered a problem. So does the domi. The domi in reality fills it BETTER then the Ishtar does. Actually, The domi fills the role of drone ship better then the ishtar in every situation that I can think of. The domi has tons more EHP, More low slots, More grid/cpu, can fit a better passive shield tank or active armor tank and with a sensor booster it locks as fast as a ishtar. It has more highs so it can fit a extra drone link to makeup for the drone range bonus on the ishtar. Its 1/2 the price and insurable. It has 3 rigs slots instead of 2. What is it exactly that people did with a ishtar before the nano craze hit. I can't think of a single reason to fly one instead of a domi aside from maybe "l33t status" which by this point in the game has pretty much worn off. At this time I have started the skills I need for gal recons. A lot of people think that their bonus to warp scrams will make them a great ship again. I disagree with this. I think they will be useful again because the speed nerf means that range is going to be more of a consideration. People will start using more "longer" range ships and damps will help to dictate that range. Or, I could (And probably am) way off base and will end up in domi again. So that once again makes me wonder. Whats the point of a non nano ishtar?
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:37:00 - [2] Well it can still dictate range in comparison to say a domi, and can still tank decently well for a cruiser. In short the ishtar wont be anywhere near as good as it was nanoed, but it is fliable in solo aswell as gang work.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:46:00 - [3] I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:47:00 - [4] Originally by: goodby4u Well it can still dictate range in comparison to say a domi, and can still tank decently well for a cruiser. In short the ishtar wont be anywhere near as good as it was nanoed, but it is fliable in solo aswell as gang work. I guess thats part of my problem. If your fighting close enough that being able to dictate range is important, your going to be tanked. The domi does that better. I'll give you though that it would be easier to keep a point on solo with a ishtar, but I was talking more in terms of a gang ship. Sorry, I should have stated that.
Amandin Adouin	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:59:00 - [5] I wouldn't worry that much about how your favorite ship is going to fare through this nerf quite yet. I still have some faith in CCP to change things before this goes live.
Barsexual Castle Greyskull	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:00:00 - [6] what about the myrmidon? does it do better than a myrmidon at least?
Maeltstome Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:02:00 - [7] I think if active tanking get's a much needed boost (buffer tanks make a mockery of reppers) - then the higher base resists of the ishtar would shine. Baring in mind, The deimos is outhone by the megathron also - a BS should be better than a cruiser regardless... and the nano nerf seems to be coming packaged with a web nerf - so AB hac's will outrun battleship weapons, this plays into the ishtar's hadns perfectly due to it's primary weapon not being effected by tracking. Check out Destination unknown for a nos-repper ishtar setup. Nos as good anynmore, but still worth a look. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Yaro	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:04:00 - [9] Ishtar will still be highly agile compared to a battleship, use teh same setups but fly differently. Drop your point off because you won't need it. Dive in, drop sentries or heavy drones, fly out and do 450+ dps from relative safety. This is still going to be an excellent roaming hac when pared with a scout because of how it's dps is sorted. Just be ready to lose a bunch of drones, you won't be nearly fast enough to dive in to rescue them as you were before.
Yaro	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:08:00 - [10] the only thing wich comes to my mind is to fit it this way. 2 x Medium Armor Repairer II True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 10MN Afterburner II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Warp Scrambler II Omnidirectional Tracking Link I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 2 x Small Nosferatu II 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I Ogre II x5 Does very good damage, tanks sort of ok.

Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Yaro the only thing wich comes to my mind is to fit it this way. 2 x Medium Armor Repairer II True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II 10MN Afterburner II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Warp Scrambler II Omnidirectional Tracking Link I 3 x Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 2 x Small Nosferatu II 2 x Auxiliary Nano Pump I Ogre II x5 Does very good damage, tanks sort of ok. Just realize that any hac goign anywhere near a battleship with a neut will be a dead hac. Thats generall the case pre nerf (unless you are doing a well times fly by) and it will be the case post nerf.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:10:00 - [12] Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Maeltstome I think if active tanking get's a much needed boost (buffer tanks make a mockery of reppers) - then the higher base resists of the ishtar would shine. Baring in mind, The deimos is outhone by the megathron also - a BS should be better than a cruiser regardless... and the nano nerf seems to be coming packaged with a web nerf - so AB hac's will outrun battleship weapons, this plays into the ishtar's hadns perfectly due to it's primary weapon not being effected by tracking. Check out Destination unknown for a nos-repper ishtar setup. Nos as good anynmore, but still worth a look. I had considered this but there is a problem I don't think has really come to the surface yet. It goes hand in hand with people now thinking that AB AF's are going to be "Teh bomb". They seem to have forgoten 2 important things. Drones and missles. More drones then missles though. I ishtar won't last long with a set of heavies on it. Even less with a set of heavies and some random hammerheads. I am not going to claim to be able to see the future and I could be wrong, But I think days of being able to avoid weapons (Either by speed or being close enough they can't track) is pretty much over. It's going to be a tankers world. At least all my armor tanking skills are to 5 :)
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Trojanman190 Ishtar will still be highly agile compared to a battleship, use teh same setups but fly differently. Drop your point off because you won't need it. Dive in, drop sentries or heavy drones, fly out and do 450+ dps from relative safety. This is still going to be an excellent roaming hac when pared with a scout because of how it's dps is sorted. Just be ready to lose a bunch of drones, you won't be nearly fast enough to dive in to rescue them as you were before. I am a little confused. Why drop sentries? Why not just use ogres from a distance?
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:17:00 - [15] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 07/08/2008 18:18:06 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Trojanman190 Ishtar will still be highly agile compared to a battleship, use teh same setups but fly differently. Drop your point off because you won't need it. Dive in, drop sentries or heavy drones, fly out and do 450+ dps from relative safety. This is still going to be an excellent roaming hac when pared with a scout because of how it's dps is sorted. Just be ready to lose a bunch of drones, you won't be nearly fast enough to dive in to rescue them as you were before. I am a little confused. Why drop sentries? Why not just use ogres from a distance? Either or, just pick one. Pilot preference. Sentries are awesome for larger fights because they don't have to fly anywhere to get damage on target, when one ship pops they move on to the next one even if it is 40km away. The only draw back is there are insanely ****ing expensive. Heavies have to fly to their targets, even if dropped close so you lose a lot of time (lost dps, tons of it) while they fly to their targets. The dps you gain from ogres, in my opinion, does not make up for this lost time. But they are MUCH cheaper than sentries, and berserker IIs are fairly fast and only around 300k. So it's all preference. I fly with a flight of berserker IIs and a flight of garde IIs.
Yaro	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs M8, I am not trying to be sarcastic. Its just a pain that everyone knows that ishtar lacks PG and CPU for any decent T2 fits. Devs know this. But it is too important to nerf nanoships atm.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:19:00 - [17] kinda like myrm, everyone will still think it's good, but in reality it will blow ****
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Trojanman190 Edited by: Trojanman190 on 07/08/2008 18:18:06 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Trojanman190 Ishtar will still be highly agile compared to a battleship, use teh same setups but fly differently. Drop your point off because you won't need it. Dive in, drop sentries or heavy drones, fly out and do 450+ dps from relative safety. This is still going to be an excellent roaming hac when pared with a scout because of how it's dps is sorted. Just be ready to lose a bunch of drones, you won't be nearly fast enough to dive in to rescue them as you were before. I am a little confused. Why drop sentries? Why not just use ogres from a distance? Either or, just pick one. Pilot preference. Sentries are awesome for larger fights because they don't have to fly anywhere to get damage on target, when one ship pops they move on to the next one even if it is 40km away. The only draw back is there are insanely ****ing expensive. Heavies have to fly to their targets, even if dropped close so you lose a lot of time (lost dps, tons of it) while they fly to their targets. The dps you gain from ogres, in my opinion, does not make up for this lost time. But they are MUCH cheaper than sentries, and berserker IIs are fairly fast and only around 300k. So it's all preference. I fly with a flight of berserker IIs and a flight of garde IIs. K, I understand now. I only have t1 sentries atm but was planning on getting t2's when I was done with recon skills.
Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Ignatious Mei K, I understand now. I only have t1 sentries atm but was planning on getting t2's when I was done with recon skills. t2s are well worth the training. Much more effective killers in my opinion. But they REALLY hurt the wallet. When you lose a flight of garde IIs you just lost 8mil, and thats if you got them for cheap.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:23:00 - [20] Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 07/08/2008 18:24:20 Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs M8, I am not trying to be sarcastic. Its just a pain that everyone knows that ishtar lacks PG and CPU for any decent T2 fits. Devs know this. But it is too important to nerf nanoships atm. The grid/cpu thing is actually kinda funny. I was just in EFT messing around with a passive shield tank setup. Got it up to about 600. I thought to myself "Wow, that's not to bad." Then I noticed that I only had 30 CPU left. Come to think of it, It seems to me that with this nano nerf ALL hacs should get a grid/cpu boost across the board so they actually have a chance of getting decent fits on.

Trojanman190 D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 07/08/2008 18:24:20 Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs M8, I am not trying to be sarcastic. Its just a pain that everyone knows that ishtar lacks PG and CPU for any decent T2 fits. Devs know this. But it is too important to nerf nanoships atm. The grid/cpu thing is actually kinda funny. I was just in EFT messing around with a passive shield tank setup. Got it up to about 600. I thought to myself "Wow, that's not to bad." Then I noticed that I only had 30 CPU left. Come to think of it, It seems to me that with this nano nerf ALL hacs should get a grid/cpu boost across the board so they actually have a chance of getting decent fits on. And then you realize all it takes is a single tier 2 battlecruiser or battleship with a neut to ruin your day. =/
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Trojanman190 Originally by: Ignatious Mei K, I understand now. I only have t1 sentries atm but was planning on getting t2's when I was done with recon skills. t2s are well worth the training. Much more effective killers in my opinion. But they REALLY hurt the wallet. When you lose a flight of garde IIs you just lost 8mil, and thats if you got them for cheap. I once saw a guy in a domi 2 volley a falcon from about 140k out with a set of t2 sentries. Don't know which kind they were though.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Trojanman190 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 07/08/2008 18:24:20 Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs M8, I am not trying to be sarcastic. Its just a pain that everyone knows that ishtar lacks PG and CPU for any decent T2 fits. Devs know this. But it is too important to nerf nanoships atm. The grid/cpu thing is actually kinda funny. I was just in EFT messing around with a passive shield tank setup. Got it up to about 600. I thought to myself "Wow, that's not to bad." Then I noticed that I only had 30 CPU left. Come to think of it, It seems to me that with this nano nerf ALL hacs should get a grid/cpu boost across the board so they actually have a chance of getting decent fits on. And then you realize all it takes is a single tier 2 battlecruiser or battleship with a neut to ruin your day. =/ Yet another reason I think I always stick with my domi. Heavy neuts make anything smaller then a BS cry.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:48:00 - [24] Well, you need to find a way to make use of the advantages HACs have over BSs: - faster - more agile - get targetted slower - target things faster - higher resists - harder to hit with turrets, take less damage from missiles So it's not a ship for fleet slugfests, but that's never really been a HAC's role anyway. So you're going to want to use them for smaller encounters where speed and agility are key to properly picking your battles. The higher resists and being harder to hit could make them much more effective in remote rep gangs than BSs. On a side note, the cost of T2 cruisers in general is likely to fall with the departure of the nano age.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Ignatious Mei Originally by: Trojanman190 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 07/08/2008 18:24:20 Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Yaro Originally by: Haradgrim I think its too early to tell. Who knows there might be a niche for a DualMWD/AB setup with neuts/nos + drones Lol, how the hell are you going to fit it ? Where are you going to get the PG and CPU for it Sarcasm, meet Yaro. Yaro, Sarcasm. The suggestion was made by a dev in one of the other threads/blogs M8, I am not trying to be sarcastic. Its just a pain that everyone knows that ishtar lacks PG and CPU for any decent T2 fits. Devs know this. But it is too important to nerf nanoships atm. The grid/cpu thing is actually kinda funny. I was just in EFT messing around with a passive shield tank setup. Got it up to about 600. I thought to myself "Wow, that's not to bad." Then I noticed that I only had 30 CPU left. Come to think of it, It seems to me that with this nano nerf ALL hacs should get a grid/cpu boost across the board so they actually have a chance of getting decent fits on. And then you realize all it takes is a single tier 2 battlecruiser or battleship with a neut to ruin your day. =/ Yet another reason I think I always stick with my domi. Heavy neuts make anything smaller then a BS cry. I was the one being sarcastic, I've been making fun of that comment since the dev made it. You guys are absolutely right, the Ishtar is getting a huge nerf as a result of this patch. Though the domi is overpowered for a tier 1 BS, but thats a serperate issue. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Gimpb Well, you need to find a way to make use of the advantages HACs have over BSs: - faster - more agile - get targetted slower - target things faster - higher resists - harder to hit with turrets, take less damage from missiles So it's not a ship for fleet slugfests, but that's never really been a HAC's role anyway. So you're going to want to use them for smaller encounters where speed and agility are key to properly picking your battles. The higher resists and being harder to hit could make them much more effective in remote rep gangs than BSs. On a side note, the cost of T2 cruisers in general is likely to fall with the departure of the nano age. The problem is that the strengths of the ishtar is really out done by the domi. Im not sure how it is for other hacs because I have only flown the ishtar. For example- - faster - Countered by that pesky heavy neut every BS fits in the spare high slot - more agile - See above - get targetted slower - Ok, Ill give you that but its only a couple seconds - target things faster - The domi targets almost as fast with a sensor booster (That it can fit because it has 5 mids. - higher resists - But still can't tank as well as a domi - harder to hit with turrets, take less damage from missiles - If your within turret range - See #1. They do take less damage from missle's but they still take close to full damage from cruise. never though of a remote rep HAC gang though, interesting idea.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:00:00 - [27] I think the only thing the Ishar offers more than the Domi is that it is more aglie/mobile so it warps out/travels faster etc So a gang with Ishars can move much faster than a gang of BSes and maybe for the good FC this can be a key factor on a roaming gang.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Barsexual what about the myrmidon? does it do better than a myrmidon at least? Depends what you mean by "better". IMO… It's faster (but mainly because cruisers are inherently faster than BCs). It does same:ish damage (more drones, but less guns – given the more commonly suggested Myrm fittings, though, the Ishtar usually comes out on top). It is more flexible (due to more bandwidth and dronebay capacity). It doesn't tank as well (higher base resist doesn't make up for less slots and less base HP).
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:38:00 - [29] [Ishtar, WEB WARRIOR!] Medium Armor Repairer II Armor Explosive Hardener II Internal Force Field Array I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200 DDO Photometry I Targeting Interference E50 Prototype Energy Vampire 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Ogre II x5 This was me toying with the EFT for the speed patch. Cap boosters do tend to help with the neuts, however that means your 0.0 deployments just got a lot more limited. For that reason, i like to pack smaller charges so i can carry more and just time the uses of each charge. The highs are based on the keep ceptors away a little bit, and the nos can be used on that nasty neuting battleship to help. The 5 mids is nice bcuz it gives the room for the tracking disruptor which are basically the new RSD, except missiles are still a problem... As has been mentioned in other threads though, a cruiser without an MWD active will have a smaller sig than the expl rad from cruise/torps already so you shouldn't take full dmg unless they have target painters Call it wishful thinking or me naive, but this is what i have been thinking so far. I dont believe solo pvp will look too good after this patch, so if hacs fit like this in a 3v3 (again wishful thinking) 3 AB hacs vs 3 bs's (say a mega, raven and idk... geddon?) it could potentially atleast be an interesting fight. Whatever...lay it on me CCP i'm feeling masochistic this month.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.07 20:03:00 - [30] I just came to a scary conclusion. You can actually mount a moderately sustainable dual rep tank and put out more DPS with a myrm then you can a ishtar. And even with the three rigs its STILL cheaper then losing a ishtar...



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