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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:54:00 -
[31]
A lot of sinks are probably bigger than people realize. Market transaction fees/taxes, POS fuels, the cost of replacing medical clones for everyone who's podded, office rental fees, factory rental fees... lots of people play in crowded empire space, where fees and costs are quite high.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:57:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Jimer Lins
Makes you wonder if they're constantly tweaking drop rates and so forth to keep inflation down? Or is it autobalancing, or just organic?
They aren't (I'm 99% sure), it's just organic.
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.12 19:58:00 -
[33]
The reason you don't see T1 prices hyperinflating is simple : far more "material" value is being generated compared to ISK, so the pressures applied are from the BOTTOM (i.e. insurance cash-out) rather than the top.
Take the example of, say, mission-running.
Right now, if you sit and loot/salvage everything, you end up with something around 35% ISK, 25% loot, 25% salvage and 15% LP (more or less)... or, in other words, almost double value for the ISK.
Mining on the other hand produces no ISK, neither does getting a lucky officer drop or whatnot.
For T2 goods however, the pressure is the other way around, from the top. Also, the only reason why you still see SOME degree of dwindling T2 prices is that the number of higher-skilled inventors is still on the increase (or, at least, the percentage of efficient ones is), while there's a strong downward pressure on datacore prices due to constantly (albeit slowly) increasing volumes.
Give it a bit of time, and T2 prices will start rising again.
For that matter, "rare dropped-only loot" values are also on the rise... complex/officer gear that has no LP-shop equivalent, for instance.
Need I go on ?
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Federation Fleet
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Makes you wonder if they're constantly tweaking drop rates and so forth to keep inflation down? Or is it autobalancing, or just organic?
They aren't (I'm 99% sure), it's just organic.
My feeling as well. But with a full-time economist on staff, I do wonder.
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Idrift
Caldari
Meta Trading Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:13:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Viqtoria
because you see that person over there? he's a big fat industrialist and alot like a planet exerting a gravitational influence on everything around it, economics means our isk ends up orbiting his wallet before being crushed into a tiny point, emitting bursts of laughter before it's never seen again :(
I lol'd. 
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Viqtoria
because you see that person over there? he's a big fat industrialist and alot like a planet exerting a gravitational influence on everything around it, economics means our isk ends up orbiting his wallet before being crushed into a tiny point, emitting bursts of laughter before it's never seen again :(
I cried cause its true |
Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:19:00 -
[37]
POS modules and POS fuel especially is likely to count for a huge portion of the isk sink when you consider how much must be consumed on an hourly basis given the sheer number of active POS in eve.
Other things such as the various fees (market trades, manufacturing and research etc) would also remove a considerable portion because although the fees themselves are small they are somewhat balanced by the volume processed (more or less full lab slots in empire, very active production slots and clone/repair services etc) which all adds up.
Finally there is also the hoarding mentality of many players. While many may have billions of isk they won't necessarily be willing to spend or invest a great deal of it, therefore that isk has no effect on the economy.
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Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:24:00 -
[38]
I think the reason that eve doesn't experience inflation is because there enough higher priced items to keep a player from spending large amounts of isk on the smaller priced items.
Normally "Elite Items" are sold to buy other "Elite Items" thus meaning that the large "block" of isk is simply transfered from one seller to another. Then when it reaches that one special person that just drops it in the bank or wallet or whatever.
You see the prices of "Elite Items" rise and fall over a period of time, but other then that the normal economy stays pretty regular depending on a few nerfoclipe and/or a buff of something.
So yeah, to recap my OPPIONS, basicly I have observed that large "blocks" of ISK tend to change hands for items worth these large blocks of isk and a lot of times it goes this way for a rather long time before this block might be broken up and seeded down to the players that might put it in the general economy.
If I am crazyingly wrong please please let me know lol!
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:41:00 -
[39]
Edited by: CornerStoner on 12/08/2008 20:41:33
Originally by: Lubimchik
I think the reason that eve doesn't experience inflation is because there enough higher priced items to keep a player from spending large amounts of isk on the smaller priced items.
Normally "Elite Items" are sold to buy other "Elite Items" thus meaning that the large "block" of isk is simply transfered from one seller to another. Then when it reaches that one special person that just drops it in the bank or wallet or whatever.
You see the prices of "Elite Items" rise and fall over a period of time, but other then that the normal economy stays pretty regular depending on a few nerfoclipe and/or a buff of something.
So yeah, to recap my OPPIONS, basicly I have observed that large "blocks" of ISK tend to change hands for items worth these large blocks of isk and a lot of times it goes this way for a rather long time before this block might be broken up and seeded down to the players that might put it in the general economy.
If I am crazyingly wrong please please let me know lol!
I didn't understand any of it so I couldn't say either way.
This topic has been debated ad-nauseum many times before. It's a good topic to debate, but what bothers me is when people state that minerals are 'free'. They're only free if they magically appear in your hanger. If you spent time mining them then they aren't free. If your time is free then your wallet will never be fat.
edit: spelling
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.08.13 00:27:00 -
[40]
Don't forget clones.
What I'd imagine probably takes the most money out of the system is probably the transaction and broker fees. A percent or less might not seem like all that much but every time that money gets cycled, that little bit disapears.
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Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.13 00:31:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CornerStoner
Edited by: CornerStoner on 12/08/2008 20:41:33
Originally by: Lubimchik
I think the reason that eve doesn't experience inflation is because there enough higher priced items to keep a player from spending large amounts of isk on the smaller priced items.
Normally "Elite Items" are sold to buy other "Elite Items" thus meaning that the large "block" of isk is simply transfered from one seller to another. Then when it reaches that one special person that just drops it in the bank or wallet or whatever.
You see the prices of "Elite Items" rise and fall over a period of time, but other then that the normal economy stays pretty regular depending on a few nerfoclipe and/or a buff of something.
So yeah, to recap my OPPIONS, basicly I have observed that large "blocks" of ISK tend to change hands for items worth these large blocks of isk and a lot of times it goes this way for a rather long time before this block might be broken up and seeded down to the players that might put it in the general economy.
If I am crazyingly wrong please please let me know lol!
I didn't understand any of it so I couldn't say either way.
This topic has been debated ad-nauseum many times before. It's a good topic to debate, but what bothers me is when people state that minerals are 'free'. They're only free if they magically appear in your hanger. If you spent time mining them then they aren't free. If your time is free then your wallet will never be fat.
edit: spelling
basicly what im trying to say is even though alot of ISK might be generated alot of it is "saved" and switches hands for things like slave sets, CNR, stuff like that.. which then people use this large amount of isk to buy other things worth large amounts of isk. So a lot of the games isk is tied up in players wanting the "Elite" items instead of it filtering down to things like lots little stuff....
Honestly though, I think people are forgetting what I feel might be the biggest isk sink in this game.
Skill books, everyone needs them, and they are very costly.
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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.13 00:52:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lubimchik
Skill books, everyone needs them, and they are very costly.
I doubt it. The most expensive skillbook is the Titan book at 4.5bn and then the carrier and Rorqual books at 450mil each. Assuming every single player in EVE flies a carrier and you include the Capital Ships skillbook, you're looking at 450 trillion ISK at most; I expect it's in reality much less, down below 75 trillion. That's all-time, by the way.
Packtu'sa [NCIC]
Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.13 01:03:00 -
[43]
This thread is a perfect example of the concept I always espouse.
Never underestimate the stupidity of others.
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Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.13 01:18:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gimpb
What I'd imagine probably takes the most money out of the system is probably the transaction and broker fees. A percent or less might not seem like all that much but every time that money gets cycled, that little bit disapears.
Instinctually I'd have to agree. What would be interesting would be to see a report, by someone who has more time than I do , that "simply" takes market avg * volume traded for all heavily traded/high dollar goods in The Forge for one day. That would give us a decent idea of how much of an Isk Sink daytrading is.
--Meph
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Mephie
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.13 01:21:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mephie on 13/08/2008 01:21:40
Actually, Dallas and I were just discussing that isk sellers should be added to the isk sink list. Well, the one's who get caught anyways. I'd like to see a report from CCP that gave some numbers about how much isk seller cash has been destroyed.
--Meph
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 02:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Mephie
Actually, Dallas and I were just discussing that isk sellers should be added to the isk sink list. Well, the one's who get caught anyways. I'd like to see a report from CCP that gave some numbers about how much isk seller cash has been destroyed.
"[...]we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day[...]"
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.08.13 03:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CornerStoner
Edited by: CornerStoner on 12/08/2008 20:41:33
This topic has been debated ad-nauseum many times before. It's a good topic to debate, but what bothers me is when people state that minerals are 'free'. They're only free if they magically appear in your hanger. If you spent time mining them then they aren't free. If your time is free then your wallet will never be fat.
edit: spelling
Actually even if the minerals magically appear in your hangar they aren't 'free'. Just because they appear doesn't mean that you should use those minerals to build a battleship and sell it for 50% of mineral value. Minerals should always be valued based on what you can sell them for no matter what the source, mining, reprocessing, gift from a higher power, whatever....opportunity cost 101.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.13 03:24:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Akita T on 13/08/2008 03:25:12
Semantics.
Minerals ARE free. In a sense.
But for that matter, so is ISK, if you want to take it literally.
Both cost TIME. But time is also free... sort of.
The words you are looking for is "have (no) value".
Obviously, no matter how you got them (magically appeared in your hangar, spend time mining them, spent days collecting that 1 free tritanium once every 2+ minutes after self-destructing you newbie ship, I don't care), they have the value you could sell them for.
No more, no less.
And ironically, THAT value is not a fixed value either.
It depends on how fast you want to sell them, or where you want to sell them.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.13 03:52:00 -
[49]
I think the main point of this thread or the OP at least was the amount of isk going into the system compared to the amount going out. I dare say there is a lot more coming in than going out.
This is why any of the older characters from 2004 would remember back when it would take months of corp teamwork in order to save up for a battleship. The price was the same however the isk coming into the system rather than out was greatly reduced.
Missions were maxed at level 3
Mining yields were far lower as there were no barges/hulks
Salvaging didn't exist
I do kinda miss those old days. Back then I sold a friends Power Diagnostic System II BPO to Dr Scope for 3 billion isk. Now (or at least pre-invention/raven nerf) it would have sold for 10-30 billion isk. Back then that 3 billion isk was a phenomenal amount of money. Having 3b in 2004 would be the equivalent of having 50b now.
Anyway so based on my interpretation on the OP I believe there is far far more isk coming into the system rather than going out. This means lots of people can afford to compete in terms of production so prices stay at almost their lowest possible levels however lots of people can afford to pay inflated costs but the way CCP has designed the system means production is so flooded that prices aren't generally rising.
I actually tested the theory when the npc shuttles were removed. I found 5 semi popular systems and I placed shuttles at 13,000 isk in the least popular stations in those systems. In the most popular stations in those systems I had shuttle prices at 300,000 isk per unit.
Interestingly the 300k shuttles were extremely quick to sell (we are talking within a 24 hour period) showing that people don't value isk anywhere near as highly as they used too. It also reinforces that people are lazy and willing to sacrifice considerable savings for ease of use (docking in another station to avoid paying a 3000% markup on an item) further reinforcing my theory.
ISK is way too easy to obtain these days through CCP implemented means (mining, missions, loot, salvage, ratting, etc. It's not necessarily a bad thing but short of CCP removing all that advanced content (barges, L4 missions) the only counter is to release more proper sinks (expensive bpo's such as Titans, skills and some of the other things mentioned here) |
RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2008.08.13 05:05:00 -
[50]
Things are kept in check by ccp.
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Ledoux Holdings
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Posted - 2008.08.13 05:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T
The reason you don't see T1 prices hyperinflating is simple : far more "material" value is being generated compared to ISK, so the pressures applied are from the BOTTOM (i.e. insurance cash-out) rather than the top.
Akita's right. There aren't just ISK sinks/faucets in Eve. There are also raw material sinks/faucets (faucets: asteroid/moon/ice mining and named/faction/officer loot drops. sinks: destruction of ships/POSes or the non-use of the same). The balance of those four factors are has kept (most) prices from exploding.
This is not to say that there hasn't been some inflation, since higher percentages of people have more money than they did a few years ago, it's just that this inflation comes into account more at the higher ends of the wealth spectrum. Someone buying Tech 2 gear will probably pay far more than the build cost, while a Tech 1 frigate or cruiser can be bought for close to the price of its component minerals.
Those who mentioned the "super-wealthy player" scenarios also have a good point. I don't know to what extent this contributes to keeping inflation in check, but it would be interesting to see how much isk goes to those who let most of it sit in their wallets and out of circulation.
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Mutant Marr
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Posted - 2008.08.13 09:01:00 -
[52]
Mining minerals is creating ISK. You take minerals, build a ship, insure it, blow it up.
If you don't mine minerals you can't build a ship and can't get ISK from insurance in the end.
The question is how many minerals are transfer to ISK this way.
Or am I missing something? ;)
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.08.13 09:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mephie
Actually, Dallas and I were just discussing that isk sellers should be added to the isk sink list. Well, the one's who get caught anyways. I'd like to see a report from CCP that gave some numbers about how much isk seller cash has been destroyed.
"[...]we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day[...]"
On the basis that CCP can only catch a minority of the sellers and their customers, they're a net isk source.
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.08.13 09:20:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 13/08/2008 09:20:15
Originally by: Mutant Marr
Mining minerals is creating ISK. You take minerals, build a ship, insure it, blow it up.
If you don't mine minerals you can't build a ship and can't get ISK from insurance in the end.
The question is how many minerals are transfer to ISK this way.
Or am I missing something? ;)
The isk generation occurs when the (insured) ship is blown up. Mining is not required - there are plenty of other sources of minerals; (hauler spawns & loot drops, mostly)
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Abe Mnemeph
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 10:04:00 -
[55]
So to try and summary:
Eve is an open economy (there are exchanges with the exterior, not a set amount of things) and there are more 'stuff' (isk and objects) coming in than going out.
Inflation (overall raise of prices across the board) is kept manageable because of hoarding (of isk and stuff: we all have hangars full of crap, it can be counted as a sink), equilibrium between objects and isk (more things to be bought with more isk, so it even out), and regular apparition of higher and more expansive items (like titans).
The net result is not inflation of prices, but inflation of everybody's wallet and purchasing power (aka bs are common).
All in all its seems rather efficient, maybe RL governements should take some advice...
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KIAEddZ
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 11:17:00 -
[56]
A big isk sink is people leaving the game, their wallets go dead, money no longer in circulation, and tech 1 BPO purchase is also a large sink. Titan Mom compnents etc, those BPOs cost a LOT, those big industrialists are spending 100s of billions on those BPOs on a monthly basis I suspect.
Skill books also account for a large slap aswell i suspect.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.08.13 12:32:00 -
[57]
The issues in my opinion are actually two fold.
First, we do have more coming in than going out. This is plainly obvious when you compare purchasing amounts/power/entry barriers from even just a year ago. There are some moderate checks and balances put in place to keep prices in check but it does nothing to solve the problem that more is coming in than out.
Secondly, there is the issue of wealth filtering to the top. What I mean to say is that the system is designed so that isk will filter its way through the system and eventually end up in the top tier trade/industrialists hands. Once this isk reaches these wallets it sits stagnant, because there really is very little top tier content for the industrialist.
So either we add sinks to the top end, or we add small sinks everywhere to balance things out a little more, and also at the same time add giant wealth transfer opportunities for those top tier player/corps/alliances. |
abraheam
Finis Lumen
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:48:00 -
[58]
Edited by: abraheam on 13/08/2008 13:51:09
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Market/transaction taxes are properly a much bigger isk sink than most people realizes.
This. I am not saying it is balanced, but this anyways. Even with max skills.
Edit - Since I generaly dont "create" anything, neither ISK nor materials, a large amount of ISK is sunk on a daily basis by myself alone.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
The Border Patrol
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:05:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Opertone on 13/08/2008 15:05:02
actually isk/mineral ratio is maintained by players only...
if it becomes very profitable to mine crokite or veldspar, there will be an increasing number of miners
if LP store items are in high demand, there will be increasing supply of them
people seem to do both what is easier and more profitable... which ever activity gives more profit will be preferred over others.
if ore becomes very cheap, miners will give up mining and start doing something else
and it is counterbalanced with NPC prices... in fact isk can only be used to buy stuff from NPC, skillbooks for new players, clones and LP stuff for combat pilots, blueprints and POS structures for mega corporations, fees and trade goods for traders and industrialists... eggs and cap ship BPO for mega alliances
whenever you buy stuff from NPCs you loose isk, newer players need skillbooks, older players need clones, advanced players buy POS and BPOs...
and this is true, a lot of people burry their isk in their wallets, they accumulate excess isk without spending... if he spent all his 60 bill and bought out the entire market, the average price would go up by a slight margin only...
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Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Packtu'sa
Originally by: Lubimchik
Skill books, everyone needs them, and they are very costly.
I doubt it. The most expensive skillbook is the Titan book at 4.5bn and then the carrier and Rorqual books at 450mil each. Assuming every single player in EVE flies a carrier and you include the Capital Ships skillbook, you're looking at 450 trillion ISK at most; I expect it's in reality much less, down below 75 trillion. That's all-time, by the way.
I dont think that you can count just the most expensive skills... I mean if every person flew a carrier think about all the other support skills they would have?
Granted a skill only really needs to be purcahsed once but there are alot of them...
Hmmm, yeah the buy/sell fees I suppose might take alot of isk out of the game but for the most part its so small I dont think it would put big dent on peoples wallets..
*shrug*
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