Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Chira Netanru
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 19:44:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Lubimchik Hmmm, yeah the buy/sell fees I suppose might take alot of isk out of the game but for the most part its so small I dont think it would put big dent on peoples wallets..
It doesn't put a big dent in someone's wallet who's paying the fees, but the isk has to come from somewhere. Proton Power made a 2.3billion isk broker fee mistake not long ago, and I run at around 110bil isk gross per month (buy+sell), and I go through about 750mil/month in market fees.
|
Anhid Olow
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 22:08:00 -
[62]
Dunno if somebody mentioned that before but one major isk sink is missing in the initiel post : npc pos fuel. Which makes me think about aanother missing isk source : moon products! You don't know how to compute the numbers huh?!
|
Kwint Sommer
Caldari XERCORE
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 22:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Anhid Olow Dunno if somebody mentioned that before but one major isk sink is missing in the initiel post : npc pos fuel. Which makes me think about aanother missing isk source : moon products! You don't know how to compute the numbers huh?!
God damn it, that's not an ISK source. An ISK source is something that produces ISK not...I give up, I'm just gona quote Shadarle.
Originally by: Shadarle This thread is a perfect example of the concept I always espouse.
Never underestimate the stupidity of others.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 22:35:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Originally by: Anhid Olow Dunno if somebody mentioned that before but one major isk sink is missing in the initiel post : npc pos fuel. Which makes me think about aanother missing isk source : moon products! You don't know how to compute the numbers huh?!
God damn it, that's not an ISK source. An ISK source is something that produces ISK not...I give up, I'm just gona quote Shadarle.
Originally by: Shadarle This thread is a perfect example of the concept I always espouse.
Never underestimate the stupidity of others.
This thread seriously hurts my brain.
|
SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.08.13 23:35:00 -
[65]
Edited by: SencneS on 13/08/2008 23:35:35 Every time this thread comes up another puppy and kitten is killed...
Look it's really simple..
ISK Sink:- Any item or action to which the ISK is removed from your wallet that is NOT given to another player.
The following actions are ISK SINKS:- (I think I have them all) 1) Purchasing Insurance on Ships that never get destroyed, or the insurance is never collected. 2) Purchasing Medical Clone 3) Installing a Jump Clone 4) Purchasing anything sold by an NPC, Skills, NPC Trade goods, POS Fuel items etc. Anything that is not sold by a player. 5) Broker Fees 6) Tax 7) Rent an Office 8) Release Impounded Items 9) War Declaration 10) Starting a new Corporation 11) Starting a new Alliance 12) Using a NPC Manufacturing Slot 13) Using a NPC Laboratory Slot 14) Purchasing something from the LP Store that requires ISK 15) Using the agent Locater 16) GM actions taken on account where ISK was purchased. 17) GM actions on reimbursement of lost ship/pod. (Yeah people forget this one)
ISK Faucet:- Any item or action to which the ISK is deposited into your wallet that is NOT from another player.
The following actions are ISK FAUCETS:- (Again I think I have them all) 1) Destruction of any ship apart from a newbie ship, even abandoned ones. This is amplified if you are in the ship and it's insured at the time of it's destruction. 2) Killing an NPC which has a Bounty 3) Completing missions in which ISK is a reward 4) Selling anything to an NPC, doesn't matter what it is as long as an NPC purchased it. 5) The 5,000 ISK you start with 6) GM actions on reimbursement of lost pod. (Yep you get your medical clone ISK back)
Both the Sinks and the Faucets where based purely on ISK entering and leaving the game. If you get podded and you buy a new medical clone, then petition the loss, and the GM grants it. Nothing has changed, however these are still actions to which ISK leaves and re-enters.
Amarr for Life |
Romulus Lucati
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 00:20:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Originally by: Anhid Olow Dunno if somebody mentioned that before but one major isk sink is missing in the initiel post : npc pos fuel. Which makes me think about aanother missing isk source : moon products! You don't know how to compute the numbers huh?!
God damn it, that's not an ISK source. An ISK source is something that produces ISK not...I give up, I'm just gona quote Shadarle.
Originally by: Shadarle This thread is a perfect example of the concept I always espouse.
Never underestimate the stupidity of others.
This thread seriously hurts my brain.
Amen
|
Flaming Lemming
Caldari Puppeteer Press
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 02:26:00 -
[67]
BUt...if high-sec level 4 mission runners are constantly bringing in 20-25 million isk/hour in bounties/rewards (which I know is happening, because many low/no sec dwellers harp on that fact. (Constantly. Ad Nauseam. Over and Over. They never stop f'ing whining about it. The very idea consumes their souls..and apparently makes their e-PvPeens shrivel up.) This must be an INCREDIBLE isk faucet, since it's being done 23/7/365 (see previous parenthical comment).
There is no way an normal isk sink could possibly absorb that kind of insane isk growth, so therefore prices actually ARE hyper-inflationary, and you just haven't noticed yet.
..What?
You mean prices aren't rising faster than a pecker at a **** convention?
That must mean that either...hmmmm...
a) The isk faucet -> isk sink ratio is actually fairly balanced, b) the people bringing this huge amout of isk are busy hoarding it like Scrooge McDuck..in which case it has no effect on the economy,and doesn't really matter (until they decide to spend it like drunken sailors..but since this hasn't happend yet, I'm not to worried about it.) or... c) space whales are secretly eating peoples extra isk when they aren't looking.
I vote for c.
|
RaWBLooD
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 05:11:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
This thread seriously hurts my brain.
Both of you need to stop being so condescending. Just state again that the isk must come from non player sources and go to non player sources. He may have not asked a question but just calling people stupid doesn't say much about you. miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Constructicon
Gallente The Plebians
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 08:51:00 -
[69]
Tech 2 ships!!!!!! for goodness sake people! as far as i can see nobody has mentioned the enormous sink that are HAC's and recons, faction/officer mods, faction ships, capital ships...
all of these get blown up in huge numbers every day
|
Amrumm
Rhetorical Devices
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 09:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Constructicon Tech 2 ships!!!!!! for goodness sake people! as far as i can see nobody has mentioned the enormous sink that are HAC's and recons, faction/officer mods, faction ships, capital ships...
all of these get blown up in huge numbers every day
In case you are not trolling, read the thread carefully again and then post 45 again. In case you are trolling, just read post 45.
|
|
Maalan
Caldari Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 11:52:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Maalan on 14/08/2008 11:53:28 I lean towards the simple answer that material sources are balancing ISK sources. When mineral values, or salvage values or T2 materials (except those that can be controlled by a few people) reach a high enough price, the farmers stop running missions and go mine/salvage/etc. Thus bringing the price back down to some sort of average.
(Just realized I said exactly what Opertone did...) ---
You think you are a pirate? You should see how much I made selling you that ship you just went and got blown up... ((Until CCP admits what I look like please pretend my face looks normal)) |
Hegbard
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 13:48:00 -
[72]
I believe that if we assume that missions are a very large ISK faucet, their inflationary potential is offset by the huge amount of resources they bring in. Which would explain why most missions bring in as much in minerals/salvage as in bounties/rewards. The money mission runners get affords them the same amount of stuff that they bring in from materials from the same missions. So gear that mission runners buy is the same gear they hauled to the station, but in a refined state (refined as in: reprocessed and then manufactured). Using this logic, running missions is mostly a zero sum game. Now, I'm not claiming this is the ultimate truth, since we have no hard numbers to analyze, but I'd say a pretty strong indication of this is that in large mission hubs, the absolute majority of loot sells for the same amount as the minerals you get from reprocessing (meaning that it's not bought to fit ship, but bought to turn into minerals and better modules/ships/whatever).
I have been very surprised that FW hasn't upset this balance. I was expecting the larger amount of insurance payouts, more stuff lost and fewer missions run to cause serious inflation, but the prices have instead been going down. This could mean that empire contribution to the total economy is insignificant and 0.0 wars completely control the behavior of the market. Or maybe something else is going on here. The only thing that I can see where FW could affect the economy slightly is that much more faction ammo is used (which is an ISK sink). Still. No one will carry ammo worth as much as the insurance payout for their ship, so it doesn't explain much. Maybe the deflation is caused by the people who were primarily running missions went to FW instead.
It's all very weird and we can just speculate until we have some hard numbers. Where's the quarterly economy report?
|
Hugh Hefner
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 15:22:00 -
[73]
Losing ships is a huge isk-sink because many of those making the ships and then selling them is simply high-sec-ppl, if they spend the isk they do it on silly stuff like officer-gear for their mission-running-alt/main whatever inflating that part of the market.
|
Lexander Morinex
Caldari LDD Investments
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 15:32:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Hugh Hefner Losing ships is a huge isk-sink because many of those making the ships and then selling them is simply high-sec-ppl, if they spend the isk they do it on silly stuff like officer-gear for their mission-running-alt/main whatever inflating that part of the market.
Where is the ISK lost? Items and materials are lost, insurance is paid (ISK gain), but the money used to buy the next ship goes to another player. The minerals are removed, the ISK is increased in the system. Unless that money is spent at an NPC vendor, the ISK from destruction merely changes hands. I admit there is loss due to fees, and these can add up, but does it exceed the insurance payout?
- Lexander
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 16:38:00 -
[75]
Dear god.
Anyway, ignoring people who don't know what isk sinks are. The answer is that eve IS experiencing inflation in a huge way on items where the supply is limited (T2 BPOs / limited edition ships / the rarest moon minerals etc). Because yes, there is more isk out there. And no more items to buy it with, thus inflation.
But we're not seeing it on basic T1/T2 items, because their supply is potentially limitless, and if it were to increase in isk value, players would simply push up the supply until it dropped again. It's the material faucet that is player controlled and able to keep the isk in balance.
It's not a perfect machine, because players can't always choose exactly what materials they produce (you can mine just veldspar to keep trit price in check, but if you want pyerite you're going to get some other materials just because there is no 'pure' source of pyerite.) Also mission loot and drone loot etc will produce materials in pre-determined quantities whether you want it or not (although if it as a whole got too cheap people would stop looting, and too expensive more people would loot etc).
So basically, the amount of isk ingame is going up, but so is the amount of materials you can buy with that isk, at roughly the same rate.
|
Shadarles
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 16:51:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Shadarles on 14/08/2008 16:52:02
Originally by: RaWBLooD
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
This thread seriously hurts my brain.
Both of you need to stop being so condescending. Just state again that the isk must come from non player sources and go to non player sources. He may have not asked a question but just calling people stupid doesn't say much about you.
If someone is too stupid to understand this concept after it has been stated 10 times then yes, they are stupid, and they deserve to have someone laugh at them for it.
Even after all these posts we've had at least 2 more people make the same stupid statements.
You keep trying to educate them, I'll use the public shaming method to encourage them to make more intelligent future posts.
EDIT> Gah, the forums are going to crap again, can't post on my main atm no matter what I do.
|
Lubimchik
Power Seed Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 17:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Chira Netanru
Originally by: Lubimchik Hmmm, yeah the buy/sell fees I suppose might take alot of isk out of the game but for the most part its so small I dont think it would put big dent on peoples wallets..
It doesn't put a big dent in someone's wallet who's paying the fees, but the isk has to come from somewhere. Proton Power made a 2.3billion isk broker fee mistake not long ago, and I run at around 110bil isk gross per month (buy+sell), and I go through about 750mil/month in market fees.
but out of all the players of eve how many of them do you think truely makes a living buying and selling or "trading".
I would say a very few percent of the players do this over all. I could be really wrong though!
|
Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 17:44:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Constructicon Tech 2 ships!!!!!! for goodness sake people! as far as i can see nobody has mentioned the enormous sink that are HAC's and recons, faction/officer mods, faction ships, capital ships...
all of these get blown up in huge numbers every day
The problem is that these are not isk sinks in and of themselves, the fuel for the POSs necessary to mine the moons and do the reactions necessary to manufacture the T2 stuff are isk sinks, not the loss of the ship. When you buy the ship you transfer your isk to the industrialist/trader who made it, it does not disappear from the game. If anything it's an isk faucet thru the insurance payout.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 20:58:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Lubimchik
Originally by: Chira Netanru
Originally by: Lubimchik Hmmm, yeah the buy/sell fees I suppose might take alot of isk out of the game but for the most part its so small I dont think it would put big dent on peoples wallets..
It doesn't put a big dent in someone's wallet who's paying the fees, but the isk has to come from somewhere. Proton Power made a 2.3billion isk broker fee mistake not long ago, and I run at around 110bil isk gross per month (buy+sell), and I go through about 750mil/month in market fees.
but out of all the players of eve how many of them do you think truely makes a living buying and selling or "trading".
I would say a very few percent of the players do this over all. I could be really wrong though!
You do understand that every time anyone buys an item on the market someone else was selling it (unless it was an npc item). It doesn't matter if everyone is making a living doing it, because the fees are charged if someone is a professional trader or just buying stuff from a trader.
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 21:21:00 -
[80]
Quote: Dear god.
That about sums it up. What the hell, idiots? Learn what an ISK sink is.
If the money supply increases at the same rate as the goods it's used to buy, prices will stay pretty much the same.
You could also get more complicated and introduce the velocity of money into it, but there's not much point. I doubt it matters all that much, although I'd suspect that it's slowly decreasing as people's wallets get bigger over time.
|
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2008.08.14 21:29:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Professor Leech on 14/08/2008 21:33:19
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
Quote: Dear god.
If the money supply increases at the same rate as the goods it's used to buy, prices will stay pretty much the same.
Assuming that there is a symetric distribution of goods.
I have noticed that miners have been slightly more sophisticated and they tend to switch more quickly in response to mineral prices. Lets get some more mineral/ore sinks as well as isk sinks.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Praetorian I
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 15:53:00 -
[82]
I saw it mentioned in page 1 but wonder if its something that people keep in mind. I'd also like to add some speculative comments.
An ISK resevoir would also have deflationary effects, yes?
Character progression, new players, dead accounts result in hoards of ISK earmarked for bigger projects, ISK dilution, and effective loss.
Is it also important to think in terms of a perceived or effective ISK mass that is smaller than the actuals available? Also I speculate that there is further operational splintering in dynamic partitions of; character age, regional activity, play style, market focus.
On that train, I believe inflation/deflation occurs at micro vs macro levels. Exception of course being major game changes that have universe wide impacts; EA shifting of game play, graphics improvment drawing new players, etc. On the whole, I expect CCP to have various economic functions of; category based daily sales tax and per active capita sales tax that are co-indicators of micro-inflation. That the game chooses to preserve regional boundaries to trade infers a concerted effort to create micro economies.
Lastly, is there a natural progression to market attention that redirects inflationary pressures? The tendancy being towards premium items where speculation and elite affects mask if not eliminate true inflation.
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.08.15 18:51:00 -
[83]
Quote: Is it also important to think in terms of a perceived or effective ISK mass that is smaller than the actuals available?
Are we to assume that "ISK mass" is referring to the money supply? In any case, nobody perceives the entire money supply. They can only see the bits they're dealing with.
Quote: Also I speculate that there is further operational splintering in dynamic partitions of; character age, regional activity, play style, market focus.
This looks like jargon word-salad. From what I can tell, you're saying that some players have more money than others.
Quote: On that train, I believe inflation/deflation occurs at micro vs macro levels.
On a micro level, we just call those "price changes". Inflation is a macroeconomic phenomenon.
Quote: I expect CCP to have various economic functions of; category based daily sales tax
There is no way that CCP would try to mess with specific prices so directly. They might make changes to drop rates which will trickle through to change the market price, but direct taxes on specific things aren't CCP's style.
Quote: That the game chooses to preserve regional boundaries to trade infers a concerted effort to create micro economies.
It could be, or it could just be a way to make the trade interface more manageable.
Quote: Lastly, is there a natural progression to market attention that redirects inflationary pressures? The tendancy being towards premium items where speculation and elite affects mask if not eliminate true inflation.
A good measure of general inflation includes everything in its basket of goods. However, some people might not see price changes due to their limited exposure in the market. The cost of HACs, for instance, doesn't affect trial users at all.
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.17 20:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Lubimchik Skill books, everyone needs them, and they are very costly.
Out of curiosity I checked my expense there. No capital skills of any kind, 177 skills, 568 millions, an average of 3,2 millions for each skill, 28 months of life, so about 20 million/month.
What is the highest expense wary a lot with profession.
Traders probably pay more in trade tax.
Mission runners: skillbooks and LP store items
PvPers: clones
Alliances: NPC sold POS fuel
Builders: BPOs
Pretty hard to judge what has the highest influence without data accessible only to CCP
BTW: int he list of the isk sinks BPO buying was forgotten.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
|
Danari
Syncore
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 12:03:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Danari on 19/08/2008 12:05:01
Originally by: Shadarle This thread is a perfect example of the concept I always espouse.
Never underestimate the stupidity of others.
Speaking of the stupidity of others, you're demonstrably in no position to speak about the stupidity of others. Nothing is quite so stupid as anchoring mods only to have me blow them up in your face n'est ce-pas?
|
Danari
Syncore
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 12:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Shadarles
You keep trying to educate them, I'll use the public shaming method to encourage them to make more intelligent future posts.
Speaking of public shaming, do you hear that popping sound in space? That's the sound of a shadfail tower being set as an example to all who would failpost.
|
Kei Mia
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 12:56:00 -
[87]
Originally by: SencneS
The following actions are ISK SINKS:- (I think I have them all)
Just one more to add; 18) Termination of a character
|
Pax Empyrean
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 13:05:00 -
[88]
Double posting within 2 minutes of each other is just a bit spastic.
As for Shadarle, I think his huge pile of money speaks more to his competence than you proudly waving your little epeen around in this thread. |
SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 13:50:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Kei Mia
Originally by: SencneS
The following actions are ISK SINKS:- (I think I have them all)
Just one more to add; 18) Termination of a character
Only if the following is true.
The character has ISK in their wallet. AND they are in an NPC corp.
If they are in a player corp, that ISK gets transfered to the Corp wallet as an Inheritance.
So yeah it is an ISK sink as long as it's matches specific details.
I don't know many people that terminate their character with ISK in their wallet, I guess it's possible but it's not a sink by design. |
Ricdics
Corporate Placement Holding
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 13:56:00 -
[90]
Danari to Shadarle is YouGotRipped to Ricdic.
Danari having a cry because Shadarle beat him in market PvP YGR having a cry because Ricdic mentioned his IPO was dodgy
In both cases it's pathetic. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |