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CSM: How they can gain confidence and respect from the Eve community.

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:04:00 - [1] Currently CSM squabbles over individual ship nerfs or buffs that are largely focused on improving their own interests. In fact, whenever you get into such small details, the answers to the question of "is the XXX correct for its ship type" are heavily biased and easily dismissable by CCP. The CSM needs to focus on things that affect the community as a whole and the game as a whole. First, make a rule that you do not deal with individual ships, individual ship nerfs and so on. For sure the CSM should speak up on game wide changes like the nano changes but not on whether the Vagabond needs another midslot and so on. There are dozens of useful issues the CSM could push with CCP. These issues span the entire game and are of paramount importance to large segments of the population. At any rate here are some game-wide and pervasive issues I would focus on if I were the chair of the CSM: 1) Corp interface. 4 years and still major dental surgery is less painful. This has been brought up again and again and ignored! 2) A PRACTICAL and EFFECTIVE cure to the Jita market center issue. Lots of ideas have been posted that stink and lots that are great. Sort them, propose an agenda, gets player feedback. 3) Revamp of the POS interface and a re-evaluation of POS defenses which have NOT kept up with the changes to the game. The HP buffs, Capital Ship buffs and so on have not been offset by POS improvements to adjust for those changes. 3 or 4 dreads can now take down even the best equipped POS. Dreads can now tank 9 or more Large artillery and there is no more grid to mount more. 4) Sovereignty rules that focus on players establishing kingdoms and pushing the conflict to the border regions rather than all over the map. And the FPS-Motivated capture-the-flag type control points for sovereignty are DUMB. Sovereignty should be based on occupancy, usage and activity in an area. Also when it comes to allowing player kingdoms, Sovereignty defenses (Gate sentry guns, standings based bubbles and so on) should be in the mix. You guys make progress on any of those and I will start supporting you. By progress, I mean come up with an agenda, talk through the ideas, filter the radical wacko suggestions, put the rest of the suggestions to the community perhaps in an in-game community voting mechanism. You could get CCP to write code that would allow you to pop up a vote per account on an issue. An in-game vote is preferable because that would allow you to poll the 90% of the eve population that doesn't come here. The vote should be targeted if possible. For example dont ask an empire carebear about sovereignty control, instead pop up that vote only if you end up docking at a station in 0.0. The final part of progress is get the result given to CCP and have them commit to its implementation or provide concrete and specific reasons why certain things cant be done. Does the CSM want to change their ways? Do they want to gain the respect of the community? If so then this is how to do it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:07:00 - [2] The first Rell post I can and will support wholeheartedly. Originally by: Gamesguy the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Rells Currently CSM squabbles over individual ship nerfs or buffs that are largely focused on improving their own interests. In fact, whenever you get into such small details, the answers to the question of "is the XXX correct for its ship type" are heavily biased and easily dismissable by CCP What did you expect from a popularity contest anyway? - Infectious -
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:10:00 - [4] I think when people start using the CSM forums to raise issues and get popular support for those issues, then the CSM itself can actually start functioning as it should (a voice of the Eve community.) For as long as people would rather complain about CSM in other forums instead, then CSM is going to have not much better to do than raise pointless issues in their meetings and have pointless squables. I could be crazy, though.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Rells on 14/08/2008 16:12:30 Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Rells Currently CSM squabbles over individual ship nerfs or buffs that are largely focused on improving their own interests. In fact, whenever you get into such small details, the answers to the question of "is the XXX correct for its ship type" are heavily biased and easily dismissable by CCP What did you expect from a popularity contest anyway? Ahh well everyone knows what I think of the current CSM. The question is, are they going to be more interesting than the attraction of watching a car wreck in progress? Originally by: Garreck I think when people start using the CSM forums to raise issues and get popular support for those issues, then the CSM itself can actually start functioning as it should (a voice of the Eve community.) For as long as people would rather complain about CSM in other forums instead, then CSM is going to have not much better to do than raise pointless issues in their meetings and have pointless squables. I could be crazy, though. The problem is the CSM hasn't shown LEADERSHIP. They havent shown the ability to rise above the petty debates and get substantial things done for the game at large. If they do that then people will start praising and trusting them.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:15:00 - [6] Check this post out. Look, I fully agree with the point about individual ships. But well, the rest of the CSM hasn't seemed to be wanting to discuss it too much. I will be pushing forward getting guidelines about it, though. As for your other points: 1) We already raised a ton of interface issue. The response from CCP was that they are reworking the WHOLE UI. Corp interface will be included. 2) I tend to agree on this one. But the best solution is for CCP to implement infiniband already. 3) We raised the idea that was made by a guy(Who's name escapes me), but it was submitted a bit too late, so it won't be discussed before later this month. 4) We have already had PLENTY of talk on this. Trust me, we will be talking much more on that.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:23:00 - [7] What CSM needs, LaVista i would've sent this to you on EVEMail, but can't get in-game right now, is a real and effective "questions raised" tools. Ingame channel, PR about it, dedicated people collecting and cross referencing questions and their "importance". For example, get 10 questions about ambulation and a 150 questions about alliance tournament, you know which goes to top of list. This ofcourse wouldn't remove the "less important issues", but would give a weekly or monthly list to go through. Then, as questions keep rolling in, you'd collect a new list of things for the next week/month. Ofcourse, you'd need some "sticky" help(maybe?) and some PR from CCP, like a launch window or an "official CCP supported questions channel". Just some ideas in raw form. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Sheriff Jones What CSM needs, LaVista i would've sent this to you on EVEMail, but can't get in-game right now, is a real and effective "questions raised" tools. Ingame channel, PR about it, dedicated people collecting and cross referencing questions and their "importance". For example, get 10 questions about ambulation and a 150 questions about alliance tournament, you know which goes to top of list. This ofcourse wouldn't remove the "less important issues", but would give a weekly or monthly list to go through. Then, as questions keep rolling in, you'd collect a new list of things for the next week/month. Ofcourse, you'd need some "sticky" help(maybe?) and some PR from CCP, like a launch window or an "official CCP supported questions channel". Just some ideas in raw form. Interesting suggestion. Would you maybe be interested in posting it over in the assembly hall? Credit is of course due where it's due, so if you could create it, it would be great. It kinda goes hand in hand with the streamlining of communication which I talked about in context of ship changes, which is awesome.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:39:00 - [9] I find tbh that raising an issue with them has the same issues that used to match the sales part of the forum, Good idea's get bumped down pages so fast due to long "trolling/talking/mashing out ideas" in the threads. I raised one about Sisi (link in sig) that so far has 100% support but bumped down so fast, people just don't look 4 pages back. A forum just isn't a good way of bringing ideas to the CSM viewing. Boost SISI VOTE NOW!
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:48:00 - [10] Edited by: Winterblink on 14/08/2008 16:48:24 Currently: To vote someone into CSM: 1 vote per account To agree to an item in AH: 1 vote per character Flaw? Methinks. (Edit: Please correct me if I'm wrong) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:49:00 - [11] Edited by: Gone''Postal on 14/08/2008 16:49:57 Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 14/08/2008 16:48:24 Currently: To vote someone into CSM: 1 vote per account To agree to an item in AH: 1 vote per character Flaw? Methinks. (Edit: Please correct me if I'm wrong) Ok i have to ask, what is it with the funny yellow smiley infesting everyones sigs? But I think your right on that, I'll test it when have access to a client. Boost SISI VOTE NOW!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:51:00 - [12] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/08/2008 16:51:58 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/08/2008 16:51:46 Originally by: LaVista Vista Interesting suggestion. Would you maybe be interested in posting it over in the assembly hall? Credit is of course due where it's due, so if you could create it, it would be great. It kinda goes hand in hand with the streamlining of communication which I talked about in context of ship changes, which is awesome. To be honest, i don't know much about the inner workings of CSM or even what this assembly hall is, i just see thing and suggest based on observations You can post/suggest it in my name, refer here if need be or if it's deemed a bad idea. Also contacts via EVE mail are ok, if you want me to "plan" it further. I don't care for fame or credit, i care for the community and that all voices are heard. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:55:00 - [13] The CSM should focus on direction and vision, not pick over details. When I think of the CSM I picture a relief agency having a meeting where in the first 2hrs they acknowledge that people are starving in some far off land, and how terrible it is, and then the next 2 months arguing over the relative merits of sending them brown rather than white rice. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Avon The CSM should focus on direction and vision, not pick over details. When I think of the CSM I picture a relief agency having a meeting where in the first 2hrs they acknowledge that people are starving in some far off land, and how terrible it is, and then the next 2 months arguing over the relative merits of sending them brown rather than white rice. I think a good start would be for the CSM to stop acting like game designers and start acting like the intelligent conduits they're supposed to be. If a player has an issue and writes up something constructively intelligent and gets popular support, even if 100% of the CSM thinks it's a crap idea they should still be raising it to CCP in a fashion which respects the players' opinions on it. If CCP wants to veto an idea then that's their prerogative. CSM should be the filter which lets through things of popular opinion and quality of presentation. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Rells CSM: How they can gain confidence and respect from the Eve community. Disbanding would be a good start. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Avon The CSM should focus on direction and vision, not pick over details. When I think of the CSM I picture a relief agency having a meeting where in the first 2hrs they acknowledge that people are starving in some far off land, and how terrible it is, and then the next 2 months arguing over the relative merits of sending them brown rather than white rice. I think a good start would be for the CSM to stop acting like game designers and start acting like the intelligent conduits they're supposed to be. If a player has an issue and writes up something constructively intelligent and gets popular support, even if 100% of the CSM thinks it's a crap idea they should still be raising it to CCP in a fashion which respects the players' opinions on it. If CCP wants to veto an idea then that's their prerogative. CSM should be the filter which lets through things of popular opinion and quality of presentation. Oh and...Winterblink for CSM, tbh _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Queen Killerz Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:24:00 - [17] Shenanigans How is Democratic party (EVE) suppose to take anything serious with shenanigans in the name
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:30:00 - [18] 1) Don't know about this. 2) Don't ****ing go to Jita. You can get anything you need from any of the other market hubs without the lag; I've NEVER had any issues getting stuff in Amarr. The only problem is that Jita is overpopulated because a) FotM Caldari players and b) people who think that the only place to get stuff is Jita. 3 and 4) AFAIK some CSM members are already working for this.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:41:00 - [19] They can gain the trust and respect of both the player base and CCP by fully understanding the design philosophies behind the game, and then looking for improvements to both the existing mechanics and considering player suggestions for changes to them in that light. They need to be very good, mature communicators who can explain to both player and dev alike why they think something is or is not in line with the design philosophy of the game, and why it either needs changing/improving, or needs to be left alone. Electing them was a mistake, since, predictably it was about partisanship and popularity, and not because they demonstrated the qualities above. Far better approach would have been for the devs to troll these forums looking for players who "get it" and have demonstrated the qualities above over time, appointed them, and then explained to the player base why those particular players were appointed. Short of brain transplants, there is no fix for the CSM as currently constituted.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Christina Bamar on 14/08/2008 19:23:51 Originally by: LaVista Vista Check this post out. 1) We already raised a ton of interface issue. The response from CCP was that they are reworking the WHOLE UI. Corp interface will be included. They've been saying this for the past 2 years. Shouldn't the CSM challenge CCP and ask tough questions instead of taking their precanned answers that they've been giving for years? Why does CSM exist if all you do is get the answers we already get normally? It should be more like this... CSM > The UI needs to be addressed. CCP > We're working on it. This is where CSM stops now CSM > What is it that you're working on? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > When will it be in game? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > Do you expect it to be on time or might it slip? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > Those changes sound good, but what about this? CCP > blah blah blah Notice that everything that is at ALL useful, interesting, or worthwhile comes after where the CSM seems to stop now. To be honest I have little hope that the CSM will really produce much change. What you guys can do to at least me useful is be the challenging voice to CCP. Ask follow up questions, ask tough questions, tell them when you think they're going in the wrong direction, make a scene out of it if they're really dropping the ball. CCP should answer to the CSM, not the other way around. As it is now CSM just seems to nod with blank eyes whenever CCP gives any answer, then goes back to bickering amongst themselves. CCP can ignore tough questions on the forums, but they can't ignore tough questions from the CSM. Use this fact to get the player base that you're supposed to represent some actually interesting and useful information. Stop wasting so much time bickering about the CSM's position when you can focus on CCP's position, which matters much more and is often badly communicated to the player base.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:44:00 - [21] Sheriff Jones: Oh oh, i have a plan how we can gain confidence and respect from the Eve community. Let's get to work! Chribba: Right! Winterblink: Will do! banging, clanging, oter assorted building noises scrolling of wheels as the giant wooden bestower is rolled to the forum gates Sheriff Jones, Chribba and Winterblink hide nearby as the forum people roll the wooden bestower into the forums Chribba: Right. What now? Sheriff Jones: Now we wait until nighttime... Winterblink: Right! Sheriff Jones: Then Chribba, winterblink and i come out of the secret compartment in the bestower and suprise the forums. Winterblink: Right!...wait... Chribba: Want to run that by me again? Sheriff Jones: We wait until nightime, then chribba winterblink and i... Chribba: Ngh... Couldn't resist My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.14 20:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Couldn't resist Only because wood is weak against thermal. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 23:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Kahega Amielden 1) Don't know about this. Then you have never run a corp in this game and have little umph left to back up your other points. Originally by: Kahega Amielden 2) Don't **ing go to Jita. You can get anything you need from any of the other market hubs without the lag; I've NEVER had any issues getting stuff in Amarr. The only problem is that Jita is overpopulated because a) FotM Caldari players and b) people who think that the only place to get stuff is Jita. YOU have never needed something in jita but we have already established that you are a fairly inexperienced player. There are many high end things that can only be gotten in Jita. In addition, all the market traders, commodities speculators and reaction producers MUST do business in jita. Originally by:** Kahega Amielden 3 and 4) AFAIK some CSM members are already working for this. "Working on it" is not an answer I accept. It is a cop-out non-answer used to crush people off. Its like saying "leave me alone". CCP does this and its just as much garbage from them. I dont have to take it from the CSM which is supposed to be working for us. @Bamar - Excellent post.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.14 23:32:00 - [24] Edited by: Rells on 14/08/2008 23:33:19 Edited by: Rells on 14/08/2008 23:32:26 Originally by: LaVista Vista Look, I fully agree with the point about individual ships. But well, the rest of the CSM hasn't seemed to be wanting to discuss it too much. I will be pushing forward getting guidelines about it, though. I fervently hope the rest follow your lead then. Originally by: LaVista Vista 1) We already raised a ton of interface issue. The response from CCP was that they are reworking the WHOLE UI. Corp interface will be included. WHEN? Seriously man I have heard that for 4 to 5 years. It doesnt wash with me anymore. "Soon" means "Shut Up and Stop Bothering Us". I want to know when and I want CCP to make a PUBLIC commitment to the CSM and the community. We just don't buy "we are working on it" anymore, especially whe they come out with a slew of changes that should have FAR lower priority.
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.08.15 00:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 14/08/2008 23:33:19 Edited by: Rells on 14/08/2008 23:32:26 Originally by: LaVista Vista Look, I fully agree with the point about individual ships. But well, the rest of the CSM hasn't seemed to be wanting to discuss it too much. I will be pushing forward getting guidelines about it, though. I fervently hope the rest follow your lead then. Originally by: LaVista Vista 1) We already raised a ton of interface issue. The response from CCP was that they are reworking the WHOLE UI. Corp interface will be included. WHEN? Seriously man I have heard that for 4 to 5 years. It doesnt wash with me anymore. "Soon" means "Shut Up and Stop Bothering Us". I want to know when and I want CCP to make a PUBLIC commitment to the CSM and the community. We just don't buy "we are working on it" anymore, especially whe they come out with a slew of changes that should have FAR lower priority. My gawds, having been around since the Pre-exodus UI, I can't say anything negative about the one we have now in comparison to the Castor UI. Yeah, it needs work... such as items showing up properly in overview (Wartargets not showing up when they're the sole selected category is... not petitionable), windows that *stay fing put!** when you arrange them is of paramount importance. IMO I haven't had that much difficulty with the Corp UI, but then I manage a pretty small corp. The rights certainly need streamlining, that's for damn sure.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.15 05:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Christina Bamar Edited by: Christina Bamar on 14/08/2008 19:23:51 Originally by: LaVista Vista Check this post out. 1) We already raised a ton of interface issue. The response from CCP was that they are reworking the WHOLE UI. Corp interface will be included. They've been saying this for the past 2 years. Shouldn't the CSM challenge CCP and ask tough questions instead of taking their precanned answers that they've been giving for years? Why does CSM exist if all you do is get the answers we already get normally? It should be more like this... CSM > The UI needs to be addressed. CCP > We're working on it. This is where CSM stops now CSM > What is it that you're working on? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > When will it be in game? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > Do you expect it to be on time or might it slip? CCP > blah blah blah CSM > Those changes sound good, but what about this? CCP > blah blah blah Notice that everything that is at ALL useful, interesting, or worthwhile comes after where the CSM seems to stop now. To be honest I have little hope that the CSM will really produce much change. What you guys can do to at least me useful is be the challenging voice to CCP. Ask follow up questions, ask tough questions, tell them when you think they're going in the wrong direction, make a scene out of it if they're really dropping the ball. CCP should answer to the CSM, not the other way around. As it is now CSM just seems to nod with blank eyes whenever CCP gives any answer, then goes back to bickering amongst themselves. CCP can ignore tough questions on the forums, but they can't ignore tough questions from the CSM. Use this fact to get the player base that you're supposed to represent some actually interesting and useful information. Stop wasting so much time bickering about the CSM's position when you can focus on CCP's position, which matters much more and is often badly communicated to the player base. If you actually did some research, you would see that the exact response we got was very different. But I of course assume you are very well aware of that, since you would actually have read all the notes about it. So me quoting myself again would not be needed.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.15 05:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Rells WHEN? Seriously man I have heard that for 4 to 5 years. It doesnt wash with me anymore. "Soon" means "Shut Up and Stop Bothering Us". I want to know when and I want CCP to make a PUBLIC commitment to the CSM and the community. We just don't buy "we are working on it" anymore, especially whe they come out with a slew of changes that should have FAR lower priority. As I indirectly pointed out in above message, the response we got was quite different. CCP has created a new UI group which will be working on streamlining the whole UI. But as with any software company that has a very agile process, priorities change all the time. That makes it very hard to actually give dates. Things come up all the time etc. I wish I could give you an exact time for when it will arrive. And I bet my ass that CCP would love that too. Do you think CCP are doing it to get all your tears? CCP are players too. In short: I can't answer your question, neither is it likely even the big guys inside CCP can. So it might be a bit unreasonable to ask for something that simply can't be answered. While it would be nice, it's unlikely. But it's my hope that CCP will hurry up and just rework the damn thing.
Prof Patpending Warp badgers with guns	Posted - 2008.08.15 06:01:00 - [28] Darius JOHNSON gets my respect and all my 5s
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.15 12:31:00 - [29] Nobody wants a ***ing project plan from them, but maybe some sort of indication that the UI group wasn't formed last week, that there's ongoing* progress that isn't being shelved to gather dust for two years because people can make their ships go really really fast, and that it isn't going to be 2015 before my chat channels stop trying to dry hump the module interface randomly. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.08.15 12:56:00 - [30] Consistantly vote down anything proposed by the goons that does not coincide with the own view, no more good faith concessions, these are goons! These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!

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