EVE Search - Problems with AC's, Artillery, Minmatar Battleships and Caps

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Problems with AC's, Artillery, Minmatar Battleships and Caps

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:31:00 - [31] I was using: Tempest 6x D650, 2x Neut 100mn MWD, Hvy Cap Booster, WD, Web, TD 2x LAR, 2x EANM, DC, Gyro 2x Aux Nano Pump, 1x Nanobot Accel 5x Hammerheads I've got pretty well maxed skills with this and could take on any turret based battleship (eventually). The neuts take a long time to work. It's simply not possible to beat a gank fit Raven with this fit... and plating it doesn't help either. I was starting to think of fitting a pure hail gank with lots of webs and TP's ... but test went down. Anyway, the success of the ship has nothing at all to do with projectiles and everything to do with using TD's to **** over other battleships. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:35:00 - [32] Edited by: NightmareX on 15/08/2008 20:35:57 I know many Neutron fitted Megathron pilots who fit Medium Capacitor Booster on the Mega, and those who do that will have a problem to handle 2x Heavy Neuts. Hmm, maybe that's the reason i have won over so many Megathrons heh. And yeah, my Tempest on sisi have 30k armor without the Slave Omega implant (20k on TQ without ANY implants)
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:36:00 - [33] Did you find that the second neut was all but useless? I'd end up only running one 90% of the time, because the second one didn't seem to really gain me alot after the first minute or so of the battle. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:41:00 - [34] Edited by: NightmareX on 15/08/2008 20:44:02 Originally by: Liang Nuren Did you find that the second neut was all but useless? I'd end up only running one 90% of the time, because the second one didn't seem to really gain me alot after the first minute or so of the battle. -Liang Well i don't think that's kinda right, because the more you neut the more cap the target will lose, and more cap boosters have to be burned faster. And the faster a Mega for example are out of cap the more chance you have to kill him and survive. But to a more nice thing. I would really like to fight your Tempest on sisi to see how it performs. But oh well, WTB an Online Test Server first.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:50:00 - [35] Well, it might be worth running with 5 med neut drones at that rate... but that seems like a pretty specialty thing to do... and 5 med ecm drones might work better anyway. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
NightmareX MAFIA Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.15 20:58:00 - [36] Edited by: NightmareX on 15/08/2008 20:58:00 Originally by: Liang Nuren Well, it might be worth running with 5 med neut drones at that rate... but that seems like a pretty specialty thing to do... and 5 med ecm drones might work better anyway. -Liang I agree, but still, Tempest need as much DPS as it can get while having a tank that can last a bit, so i would fit Combat Drones anyways, also Heavy Combat Drones.
Mythrell Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:01:00 - [37] Obiviously this has been discussed a lot more than I can be arsed to read, but here's my thoughts regardless. Typhoon is fine as it is. Sure it does require more skill than any other BS to fly, but when you master it, it's one of the best BS's out there. To my knowledge 1400mm arties still have better Alpha than Tachyons. Plus the Tachyons are harder to fit. DPS is whole different story. Ammo usage of AC's isn't really a problem, I've never ran out of ammo in combat. All the ships can have more than enough in their cargoholds, if that is decided. Damage is tied to the range, which is also the case with blasters. Except that AC's can still hit further away. EMP faction ammo had a nice boost with the EMP resistance nerf, they're fine too. Overall I don't see anything big wrong with the Minmatar ships. There is just broken ships with other races, like the unfamous passive shield tanking Myrmidon which laughs at Drakes. I agree that some balancing should be done, but I'm just not sure if it's minmatar ships which needs boosting or some other ships which would need a nerfing. Except for the Tempest Fleet Issue. That ship is just worthless.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Mythrell Obiviously this has been discussed a lot more than I can be arsed to read, but here's my thoughts regardless. Typhoon is fine as it is. Sure it does require more skill than any other BS to fly, but when you master it, it's one of the best BS's out there. To my knowledge 1400mm arties still have better Alpha than Tachyons. Plus the Tachyons are harder to fit. DPS is whole different story. Ammo usage of AC's isn't really a problem, I've never ran out of ammo in combat. All the ships can have more than enough in their cargoholds, if that is decided. Damage is tied to the range, which is also the case with blasters. Except that AC's can still hit further away. EMP faction ammo had a nice boost with the EMP resistance nerf, they're fine too. Overall I don't see anything big wrong with the Minmatar ships. There is just broken ships with other races, like the unfamous passive shield tanking Myrmidon which laughs at Drakes. I agree that some balancing should be done, but I'm just not sure if it's minmatar ships which needs boosting or some other ships which would need a nerfing. Except for the Tempest Fleet Issue. That ship is just worthless. Lots of complaints RE 1400 mmII's are based on their fleet performances where they are indeed bested by Tachys (because you only have two options for minnie bs for fleet work, neither has a double damage bonus). Combine inferior DPS with inferior alpha and inferior tracking and inferior tank and what do you have? An inferior ship. That isn't to say a minmitar battleship is USELESS - it's just saying you have better choices in the other three races for fleet ops (Rokh, Mega, Apoc)
Mythrell Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:45:00 - [39] Three gyrostabbed Tempest with 1400mm T2 arties does abit less DPS and a lot more Alpha than similar Apoc setup with Tachyons, so I don't really know where that comes? When comparing the two of those ships in normal sniping setups, I don't see any huge difference. Tracking is worse with Tempest, so is optimal range and DPS. Apoc can't shoot over 4 minutes with all guns (bringing down capitals and such), has less Alpha and is over all less mobile. Of course, there will be specialiced setups where one would excel over another, but that's why they are specialized setups. Tempest can hit over 200km if really wanted to etc. Before this goes into arguing, I'd like to see what kind of settings you are using when you are saying that it's inferior in every way? :)
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.15 21:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Mythrell Of course, there will be specialiced setups where one would excel over another, but that's why they are specialized setups. Tempest can hit over 200km if really wanted to etc. For that matter, you can make a Pulse apoc hit over 200km if you really want to. Quote: Before this goes into arguing, I'd like to see what kind of settings you are using when you are saying that it's inferior in every way? :) Sigh, I did an extensive comparison of the Maelstrom (which is vastly superior to the Tempest in every possible way) vs the Apoc, and the only thing the Mael did better was a few % more alpha and a few more hitpoints. Please don't make me dig up that link. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:03:00 - [41] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 15/08/2008 22:05:59 The reason is say the Tempest (double damage bonus, 6 turrets) will get 108km optimal range out of his artillery at max skills with 44km falloff - meaning it's forced to use at LEAST one weapon range mod to even reach range in falloff. The Tachyon sporting (aurora) Apoc reaches out to 160km optimal base - no ehancers necessary to operate at the "normal" fleet range and a single mod places you ABOVE normal. Apoc only requires 1 sensor booster to lock out to fleet ranges, the Tempest needs 2. Apoc has more slots free in it's lows naturally so it can also slap on a very thick buffer withot effort. Both ships require a fitting module in the low slots to make them work. If you want to get your better alpha in a Tempest you sacrifice your tank - meaning for the fleet situation you're built for you're going to die in one shot to even smaller fleets. Maelstrom with 8 turrets has the same issue - in order to achieve the better alpha you sacrifice everything resembling tank. (2 tracking enhancers still force you to fight in falloff, 1 tracking computer puts you at proper fleet minimum ranges at the edge of falloff). Never underestimate the cost of natively fighting in falloff. And don't overlook the terrible tracking penalty on the worst tracking gun in the game until you hit capital ships. .0033 rad/s tracking (with the two tracking enhancers) gives you a max target transversal of 460 m/s at the edge of your optimal - even plated fleet ships mwding can exceed that threshold and start getting damage reductions.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Mythrell Three gyrostabbed Tempest with 1400mm T2 arties does abit less DPS and a lot more Alpha than similar Apoc setup with Tachyons, so I don't really know where that comes? When comparing the two of those ships in normal sniping setups, I don't see any huge difference. Tracking is worse with Tempest, so is optimal range and DPS. Apoc can't shoot over 4 minutes with all guns (bringing down capitals and such), has less Alpha and is over all less mobile. Of course, there will be specialiced setups where one would excel over another, but that's why they are specialized setups. Tempest can hit over 200km if really wanted to etc. Before this goes into arguing, I'd like to see what kind of settings you are using when you are saying that it's inferior in every way? :) Nothing to see here folks, move along now! Minmatar ships, especially the tempest, are fine! Capless weapons and teh alpha obviously balance out having less tracking/dps/tank/range/reloading/fighting in falloff. If anything Matar need a nerf!
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Mythrell Typhoon is fine as it is. Sure it does require more skill than any other BS to fly, but when you master it, it's one of the best BS's out there. Outdone by the raven in everything except RR gangs. Quote: To my knowledge 1400mm arties still have better Alpha than Tachyons. Plus the Tachyons are harder to fit. DPS is whole different story. No, and it's relative. You can fit 8 tachs/mbeams/whatever and manage a similar tank to a maelstrom. Quote: Ammo usage of AC's isn't really a problem, I've never ran out of ammo in combat. Sounds like you don't live very long Quote: All the ships can have more than enough in their cargoholds, if that is decided. Damage is tied to the range, which is also the case with blasters. Except that AC's can still hit further away. Falloff is obviously superior, amirite? How many times do I need to post the number .385? Quote: EMP faction ammo had a nice boost with the EMP resistance nerf, they're fine too. You do realise that a half-explosive half-EM ammo gets the same boost as a full explosive or full EM ammo, right? It doesn't get double uberness for finding both resistance reductions. Quote: Overall I don't see anything big wrong with the Minmatar ships. You can't fly 2 races well. Quote: There is just broken ships with other races, like the unfamous passive shield tanking Myrmidon which laughs at Drakes. Projectiles are broken Quote: I agree that some balancing should be done, but I'm just not sure if it's minmatar ships which needs boosting or some other ships which would need a nerfing. Except for the Tempest Fleet Issue. That ship is just worthless. P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-L-E-S
Mythrell Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:51:00 - [44] Apocs do need two slow slots of fitting mods, Tempest doesn't. It also does need two sensor boosters or equilevants to lock over 135km. Tempest still has over 500 higher Alpha than Apoc without gyrostabs/heatsinks. But fair enough, it seems like most of the pilots flying minmatar ships are just negative from the beginning and it's pretty pointless to continue this. Comparing raven to a typhoon is just... wtf?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 22:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Mythrell Apocs do need two slow slots of fitting mods, Tempest doesn't. That's only with tachs, and the apoc will still outdamage the tempest EASILY with one less damage mod. Quote: It also does need two sensor boosters or equilevants to lock over 135km. Uh, no. Quote: Tempest still has over 500 higher Alpha than Apoc without gyrostabs/heatsinks. Alpha doesn't matter. Quote: But fair enough, it seems like most of the pilots flying minmatar ships are just negative from the beginning and it's pretty pointless to continue this. You're wrong and you don't realize it. We've discussed this for over 45 pages, I think we know what the hell we're talking about. Quote: Comparing raven to a typhoon is just... wtf? Both ships share a very common role in pvp - if you can't see that, then I don't really see any of your comments having the least bit of viability.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:05:00 - [46] Capless means something, but doesn't make up for the huge list of negatives. 500 Alpha is all but lolmeaningless. Tracking on AC's is nice. But then look at all the negatives, especially the negatives that artillery has (to the point where it's hard to find a positive thing to say about artillery other than capless). It's not a matter of us being negative (although admittedly I tend to be somewhat of a cynic), but it's just that there are SO MANY downsides to projectiles that we come across as being negative, heh. The only way to really be positive about Matar BS atm is to be ignorant of how they actually compare to the others.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:11:00 - [47] Originally by: Mythrell Three gyrostabbed Tempest with 1400mm T2 arties does abit less DPS and a lot more Alpha than similar Apoc setup with Tachyons, so I don't really know where that comes? When comparing the two of those ships in normal sniping setups, I don't see any huge difference. Tracking is worse with Tempest, so is optimal range and DPS. Apoc can't shoot over 4 minutes with all guns (bringing down capitals and such), has less Alpha and is over all less mobile. Of course, there will be specialiced setups where one would excel over another, but that's why they are specialized setups. Tempest can hit over 200km if really wanted to etc. Before this goes into arguing, I'd like to see what kind of settings you are using when you are saying that it's inferior in every way? :) I have a 8 tachyon II apoc taht can fire for 27 MINUTES non stop. So cut that crap of not firign long. Just get a reasonable setup ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:35:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Did you find that the second neut was all but useless? I'd end up only running one 90% of the time, because the second one didn't seem to really gain me alot after the first minute or so of the battle. -Liang I learned to like to carrya large smartbobm there. MEgas dominixes, armageddons all suffer a lot with it. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: AstroPhobic It has little to do with the ships, it has a lot more to do with the weapons. I promise you. 38.5% at optimal + falloff. 38.5%. The counter to this is all guns suck at optimal + falloff. The counter to that counter is Rail/lasers/pulse lasers have gobs of optimal and slim falloff rantes. Aside from the fact that it would make every weapon system simply said the same this idea could only work out if projectiles start eating heaps of cap. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.08.15 23:59:00 - [50] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 16/08/2008 00:00:17 Originally by: AstroPhobic Small/Medium/Large, they all suck. It's just easiest to see at the large gun scale. Claiming small and medium AC's suck derails the whole buff issue. Small and medium AC's are absolutely fine, sod that - they rock! I'm not EFT theorising here I'm basing this on comparing damage numbers on killmails where time and again I find I do great damage and have for my whole career - until I went to BS's. Large AC's are really, really, bad. Like embarassingly bad. They look like shit in EFT and perform worse in reality.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Yakov Draken Edited by: Yakov Draken on 16/08/2008 00:00:17 Originally by: AstroPhobic Small/Medium/Large, they all suck. It's just easiest to see at the large gun scale. Claiming small and medium AC's suck derails the whole buff issue. Small and medium AC's are absolutely fine, sod that - they rock! Their small ranges disguise the issue. The change I proposed ages ago - 5% damage increase across the board on ACs coupled with a real optimal - has much less effect on small autocannons, minorly buffs medium autocannons, and severely helps large autos. It's OBVIOUSLY a range issue.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:16:00 - [52] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Yakov Draken Edited by: Yakov Draken on 16/08/2008 00:00:17 Originally by: AstroPhobic Small/Medium/Large, they all suck. It's just easiest to see at the large gun scale. Claiming small and medium AC's suck derails the whole buff issue. Small and medium AC's are absolutely fine, sod that - they rock! Their small ranges disguise the issue. The change I proposed ages ago - 5% damage increase across the board on ACs coupled with a real optimal - has much less effect on small autocannons, minorly buffs medium autocannons, and severely helps large autos. It's OBVIOUSLY a range issue. I'd rather have at least 2.5-3 times the current falloff on all projectile turrets. At close range they will always be inferior but the damage reduction will not be as bad within the optimals of other ships (scorch ...) at least. It's just crazy that even a Pulse Geddon (not even talking about an Apoc) has higher optimal with Scorch than an ACpest has optimal + falloff using Barrage. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:17:00 - [53] I dislike falloff more and more. Since hit quality scales linearly with falloff, you do 38.5% damage at optimal + falloff. It's lame.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:25:00 - [54] Originally by: AstroPhobic I dislike falloff more and more. Since hit quality scales linearly with falloff, you do 38.5% damage at optimal + falloff. It's lame. Yep but if falloff is so high that you usually fight at optimal + falloff/2 or falloff/3, it's bearable. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:26:00 - [55] Yeah. I still like optimal.
Jodie Amille Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:29:00 - [56] How does this sound to for ALL artillery? -50% falloff(1400mm II: 35km/2 = 14.5km) Add 1/2 the amount taken from falloff(rounded down) to optimal(14.5km/2= ~7km)(None of our ships have a +optimal bonus, but this may be too much to be balanced vs railguns) +10% tracking increase? +50% ammo capacity? +10% damage modifier? Figuring in ship bonuses(Tempest, Mael), is this too much? Not enough? What do the numbers/experience people think of my proposed AC change in in OP? Good in theory but numbers are off, or just plain stupid? Keep in mind we don't want to go over the top with this. I think we have a much better chance getting things changed if we try to keep things moderate. Should we ask for more difference in DPS between the different levels of AC? I think I agree that most of our ships would be much better if our weapons performed better. How does changing the projectile bonus to a torpedo+cruise 5% damage bonus sound for the Typhoon?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:31:00 - [57] Your new ACS would give the tempest about 490 damage at 30km. While the raven does 1215. Y'know.
Jodie Amille Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:41:00 - [58] Yeah, but what beats that at 30km anyways? Even a geddon has a hard time reaching that afaik. Torps shouldn't be doing that kind of damage from that kind of range. The raven is due to be losing it's range bonus IMO. And that damage will still be a lot better than a megathron @ 30km but less in the megathron's optimal as it should be, IMO. Maybe we can convince the devs to give us optimal on AC's, but I think we would have to make some concessions considering ship bonuses so that we aren't outdoing or competing with the gallente on close-rage dps(and in fact so that they still have a considerable advantage there) If you want to give me some number or suggestions I'll be happy to post them in my original post.
Jodie Amille Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:41:00 - [59] Also, any comment re my Arty changes?
Mythrell Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:43:00 - [60] Originally by: AstroPhobic Your new ACS would give the tempest about 490 damage at 30km. While the raven does 1215. Y'know. I want to see that raven fitting on use. There's nothing wrong with AC's. Sure it might sound bad on excel, but have you actually ever tried out proper Maelstrom fitting for example?

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.