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Two questions about Caldari recons (falcon especially).

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Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/08/2008 08:41:01 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have?
Scathain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:45:00 - [2] The other types of e-war have been nerfed into the ground, and ecm is very strong. The people complain that they dont have the best, so they want everyone else to suffer instead of offering suggestions to boost the other e-war.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:50:00 - [3] The argument that other e-war ships are nerfed is ridiculous. An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. In fact, I've seen Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar recons perform solo extremely well in losec and 0.0. What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously, Falcon whiners are useless morons.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The argument that other e-war ships are nerfed is ridiculous. An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. In fact, I've seen Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar recons perform solo extremely well in losec and 0.0. What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously, Falcon whiners are useless morons. Rapier/huginn speed tanks damage as does the curse... Falcon/Rook avoids damage by stopping targets locking them... Pilgrim plate tanks and hopes it can shut down its targets damage before it dies... Arazu/lachesis warp scrams then dies... 2 of these are underpowered, 1 I would say it about right, and 5 are a long way overpowered imo. After nano nerf things will look a lot different, I imagine more like: Rapier/huginn web then die... Curse - something... Pilgrim - uses an afterburner to get close and then TD's its targets (obviously it will only engage turret boats since it picks what it fights)... Falcon/Rook avoids damage by stopping targets locking them... Arazu/lachesis warp scrams then dies... And no, stopping mwd'ing ships at 18km is not really much of a bonus since most ships will deal enough damage at lol 18km to slay a poor arazu or lachesis. So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back...
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 21/08/2008 09:10:20 Originally by: Wil Smithx So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back... Here's a hint: don't fly only close-range ships with no ewar support of your own. If people weren't so obsessed with getting OMG 99999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE!!!!!!! in EFT, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 21/08/2008 09:10:20 Originally by: Wil Smithx So yea, amarr and caldari recons are headed for the bin along with all EW because nobody likes sitting there dying and not being able to fight back... Here's a hint: don't fly only close-range ships with no ewar support of your own. If people weren't so obsessed with getting OMG 99999999999999999999999999999999 DAMAGE!!!!!!! in EFT, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Where in that post did I mention close range ships fool?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:35:00 - [7] This has been said before, and i respond the same again. What if we give caldari recons a 5% bonus to range of target painters instead of their ECM strength bonus. Then they have a bonus for 2 different EWAR types, so they obviously should be better than they are now according to your logic. Well if you are happy with it, and i dont think anyone who wants falcon nerfed would have objections to it, then everyone is happy.
Tolsimir Wolfblood Angeli Iustitiorum	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 21/08/2008 09:40:54 People really need to stop crying about the Falcon/Rook. People cried about the Arazu and its counter part that dampening was way to strong and look what went wrong there. People cried about the nanos and now they are getting nerfed. Jamming is all based on chance and a little math. There are ways to get around them. Hint #1. There is the ECCM. Fit them on your ship and its less likely to get jammed. " But I dont wanna b/c then I cant tackel in my BS" Hint #2. Fleets have to have a tacklers such as interceptors. Thats what they were made for. Hint #3. Fit what ever sensor backup you need not to get jammed. "But i dont wanna b/c then my mega wont be able to do 1200 dps" or " I dont wanna b/c then I wont be able to uber tank my BS" No one is ever going to be happy if this game is taken seriously. So go ahead CCP nerf away and pretty soon no one is going to play.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:37:00 - [9] Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 09:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. As a side note to this really, you need 3 tracking comps to counter 1 TD, so your fairly screwed on that part, also ECM is the only one that isn't stacking nerfed, if it got weaker the more you had on you it would be ok tbh What I also wanted to say is the EW ships need to be able to tank in some other way than relying on their EW, if they could tank as well as providing support for the gang, it wouldnt matter if their EW wasn't as powerful since they wouldn't just die in seconds as soon as anything locked them. Also the arazu is fairly null and void considering heavy interdictors can scram at 30km with no chance of escape AND tank AND deal damage!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.08.21 10:02:00 - [11] Quote: You dont counter target painters but who cares. You should care, and they're countered by tracking disruptors.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. That's a reasonable point, which is why I support getting rid of the module and making ECCM a sensor booster script.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 21/08/2008 08:41:01 1. Can anyone tell me why people think they're overpowered when they have a bonus to only one type of e-warfare, where every non-Caldari recon has a bonus to two? 2. Shouldn't that justify the effectiveness of ECM, since it's all Caldari recons have? 3. All the other recons can actually do some damage. It's barely worth fitting weapons on a falcon.
Ravn Silverclaw Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:14:00 - [14] Edited by: Ravn Silverclaw on 21/08/2008 12:14:13 The majority of whiners are now busy whining about nanos. Once they have ruined that aspect of the game like they've done for the other ewar already, I'm sure they will be right on the Falcon/Rook issue as soon as qualified whiners are available. Thank you for calling the Blizz...ehr...CCP hotline.
OnlyFlysFalcons	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:17:00 - [15] Some numbers (stolen from Pattern and Marn at SHC). First Number Set Assuming you have a falcon with 2, T2 racial jammers, max skills, 2 Signal Distortion amps and 2 Particle Dispersion Augmentors VS None ECCM Hurricane = 98% chance of jamming every cycle Sleipnir = 98% Tempest = 92% Dominix = 86% Rapier = 81% Falcon = 74 % Chimera = 31% VS 1x ECCM II Sleipnir = 68% Tempest = 60% Dominix = 54% Rapier = 50% Falcon = 44% Chimera = 17% For anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it's pretty much 80% chance of jamming with ECCM And considering that this is with only 2 racials, from one falcon, you can see why I think it's particularly imbalanced. Second Number Set Falcon with 3 sig amps and a single Amarr jammer (14.1) vs a Abaddon (22): No ECCM = 64% 1 ECCM = 33% 2 ECCM = 17.9% 2 Jammers: No ECCM = 87% 1 ECCM = 55% 2 ECCM = 32% So when you consider that with 2 jammers vs 1 ECCM means you will be jammed 55% of the time you also have to add on the retargetting time so you could quite easily be out of it for two thirds of a fight. So taking the theory a bit further say the Falcon has 6 racial jammers, vs 3 ships which each have a ECCM you would expect 2 of the 3 to be jammed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anyone arguing that caldari only has 'one type of ewar' or falcons 'don't do any dmg' and thus are balanced are deliberately obscuring the issue. These things are stupidly imbalanced and need to be hit, hard, by the nerf bat.
Fager Caldari Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:32:00 - [16] Originally by: OnlyFlysFalcons Some numbers (stolen from Pattern and Marn at SHC). First Number Set Assuming you have a falcon with 2, T2 racial jammers, max skills, 2 Signal Distortion amps and 2 Particle Dispersion Augmentors VS None ECCM Hurricane = 98% chance of jamming every cycle Sleipnir = 98% Tempest = 92% Dominix = 86% Rapier = 81% Falcon = 74 % Chimera = 31% VS 1x ECCM II Sleipnir = 68% Tempest = 60% Dominix = 54% Rapier = 50% Falcon = 44% Chimera = 17% For anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it's pretty much 80% chance of jamming with ECCM And considering that this is with only 2 racials, from one falcon, you can see why I think it's particularly imbalanced. Second Number Set Falcon with 3 sig amps and a single Amarr jammer (14.1) vs a Abaddon (22): No ECCM = 64% 1 ECCM = 33% 2 ECCM = 17.9% 2 Jammers: No ECCM = 87% 1 ECCM = 55% 2 ECCM = 32% So when you consider that with 2 jammers vs 1 ECCM means you will be jammed 55% of the time you also have to add on the retargetting time so you could quite easily be out of it for two thirds of a fight. So taking the theory a bit further say the Falcon has 6 racial jammers, vs 3 ships which each have a ECCM you would expect 2 of the 3 to be jammed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anyone arguing that caldari only has 'one type of ewar' or falcons 'don't do any dmg' and thus are balanced are deliberately obscuring the issue. These things are stupidly imbalanced and need to be hit, hard, by the nerf bat. You do realize that Racial jammers only jam that good on the Race they are intended for? Cut their use in 1/4 and well talk Give numbers on Multispectrals (include range on multis so ppl can see that 200kms is just lol). Racials is a great advantage if you know what your up against(exactely) Becouse if you cant JAM that one ship that can hurt you, your dead in seaconds or warp off if possible. It be safe to say a Nerf consisting of removing Racials would not make many ECM-Pilots shit their pants really. Then again i agree on Falcons being OP due to the single fact that they perform as a Rook with Cov Op Cloak.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:33:00 - [17] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 12:35:52 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 09:38:34 You counter damps with sensor boosters, which is always usefull. You counter tracking disruptors with tracking computers, which are always usefull You dont counter target painters but who cares. You counter ECM with ECCM, which isnt usefull when you arent jammed. And no other recon ship can operate effectively at the range of a falcon. That's a reasonable point, which is why I support getting rid of the module and making ECCM a sensor booster script. This is actually a quite solid idea. Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #1. There is the ECCM. Fit them on your ship and its less likely to get jammed. " But I dont wanna b/c then I cant tackel in my BS" (a) ECCM is not effective enough if you fit just one (read: getting jammed on every second attempt still puts you out of the fight thanks to BS lock time). (b) Fitting more then one ECCM really kills your setup, you're way better off bringing Falcons to counter Falcons rather then gimping your entire gang (which will then completely die to another BS gang). Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #2. Fleets have to have a tacklers such as interceptors. Thats what they were made for. If battleships cannot tackle, do you really expect me to use sentry-tanked interceptors to tackle? Hint: It cannot be done. So I'm stuck with having some tackle on battleships. I'll generally menage to squeeze 1 ECCM in by removing a part of the tackle capability, but that leads us to the point above - a battleship with one ECCM gets effectively put out of the fight thanks to lock time anyway. Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Hint #3. Fit what ever sensor backup you need not to get jammed. "But i dont wanna b/c then my mega wont be able to do 1200 dps" or " I dont wanna b/c then I wont be able to uber tank my BS" Well. Yes, I can totally gimp my fleet if I choose to (this means I'll die to their battleships anyway), but I'm way better using Falcons to counter Falcons (or if the gang is large enough to waste 1 BS, completely sniper-fit BS) rather then setting up a gang which loses to a gang of equal size because it's horribly gimped. Furthermore, using Falcons is rather viable for a low-sec pirate because they can work outside sentry ranges, unlike most of their counters which fare horribly under sentry guns.
Fager Caldari Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:49:00 - [18] Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:50:04 Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:49:19 Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, the whole covops cloak thingy definitely makes the Falcon a bit on the overpowered side. Did you notice whining about the Rook? No, it's annoying (and quite effective), but you can scout for it and either bring counters or avoid fighting (or try to get a favourable warp-in on it or w/e). Falcons, you can't, and they don't have any significant downsides compared to a Rook either. Thats where the real problem lies in Falcons, Having that range AND the Covop Cloak is over the top. However ECCM is effective, more so against multispectrals. Please pull out the numbers with Multispectrals instead of Racials. Racials is powerful couse they only work on 1/4th of all ships. Increased range and power for 1/4th payoff is not imbalanced imo.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:54:00 - [19] Originally by: **er Edited by: **er on 21/08/2008 12:50:04 Edited by: *er on 21/08/2008 12:49:19 Originally by: Cpt Branko At any rate, the whole covops cloak thingy definitely makes the Falcon a bit on the overpowered side. Did you notice whining about the Rook? No, it's annoying (and quite effective), but you can scout for it and either bring counters or avoid fighting (or try to get a favourable warp-in on it or w/e). Falcons, you can't, and they don't have any significant downsides compared to a Rook either. Thats where the real problem lies in Falcons, Having that range AND the Covop Cloak is over the top. However ECCM is effective, more so against multispectrals. Please pull out the numbers with Multispectrals instead of Racials. Racials is powerful couse they only work on 1/4th of all ships. Increased range and power for 1/4th payoff is not imbalanced imo. A single racial is about as effective as 2 multispectrals, only idiots fly with a full rack of mutli tbfo. Though considering its caldari and they do have a rather large % of utter muppets, I wouldn't put it past being common. Oh and if you hadn't worked it out your very likely to meet a mixed gang with different raced ships so chances are with your large number of med slots with racial jammers you can jam most of a gang fairly effectivly.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:30:00 - [20] If you assume that everyone you fight against will have a Falcon in their gang, then an ECCM is a useful module - because you always need it. In my experience the past few months, there has always been a Falcon, Blackbird, Scorpion, or some other Caldari ECM ship present in the opposing gang/fleet, so I think my first assumption is valid.
Cheenie	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Arthur Frayn An Arazu warp scramming from 90km kicks serious arse. So does a Rapier webbing from that distance. Lol yeah, cus every Recon pilot has all level 5 skills, with faction mods and a maxed Claymore in gang. Falcon / Rook perform very well alone with basic skills, they can 100% jam multiple enemy HACs.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:44:00 - [22] People will cry about anything that is different from regular tank and spank. Unfortunately CCP seems to listen so its not a question of if the falcon will get nerfed but when. Once nanos are nerfed to the ground you will see a lot more ecm whines followed by a heavy nerf.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:50:08 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/08/2008 13:49:22 Originally by: Esmenet Once nanos are nerfed to the ground you will see a lot more ecm whines followed by a heavy nerf. Well, nerfing nanos boosts Falcons (as it nerfs one of the counters). It will take essentially double the time to reach one. Plus, it nerfs its counterparts (which are all essentially nano-fit), making it even better in comparison.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 13:57:00 - [24] If you want to nerf Falcons and 'balance' it with other Recons, then prepare to compromise and at least think about bring its damage potential up. Nice dronebay or something. Then we'll talk. Waah waah. If people are getting ****d by Falcons that bad, then something's not being done right. Less killmail whoring, more taking one for the team. Hint hint.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Odre Echee If you want to nerf Falcons and 'balance' it with other Recons, then prepare to compromise and at least think about bring its damage potential up. Nice dronebay or something. Sure, 100% supported.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Cpt Branko Sure, 100% supported. I think we need a bit more people, eh? I also hope you people do realize this : there are people with maxed out ECM skill, like me, and nerfs really wouldn't hit us that hard, and we still are likely to jam your sorry asses anyway? Repeat ad infinitu... Until it becomes paperweight?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:05:00 - [27] Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 14:06:24 When falcon uses its drones it will be in drone control range and it will cant cloak. So the enemy will send all their drones on the falcon forcing it at least to warp out, and maybe an interceptor can jam/bump it long enough to prevent it from warping out. Sure have fun with your drone bay. btw odre, want to bet? If CCP does a nice swing with nerfbat your skills wont help you, it also didnt help the sensor damp users.
Odre Echee Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/08/2008 14:06:24 When falcon uses its drones it will be in drone control range and it will cant cloak. So the enemy will send all their drones on the falcon forcing it at least to warp out, and maybe an interceptor can jam/bump it long enough to prevent it from warping out. Sure have fun with your drone bay. btw odre, want to bet? If CCP does a nice swing with nerfbat your skills wont help you, it also didnt help the sensor damp users. This presumes Falcon going solo (which may happen if Falcon gets nice attacky-attacky). It also may depend on drone aggro., as well as FoF missiles. You win some, you lose some. I don't care. I accept it, and there are people who needs to do the same. If Falcon gets spanked bad with nerfbat that bad, then it enters the 'paperweight' scenario I have mentioned. Nerf'd to the point where no amount of skills will redeem it. In which case, general population will be happy, and we'll all live happily ever after. Right?
Cactus Mack	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:36:00 - [29] The Falcon only needs minor changes. Reduce per recon level jam strength from 20% to 15% and remove a single low slot. This would balance it with its cloaking ability and bring the Rook back to the game.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.21 17:08:00 - [30] What makes ECM the ewar of choice these days, IMO, is the range bonuses. If you could get your damper or tracking disruptor's optimal out to a 200km optimal, they'd probably be superior fleet ewar and the arazu would become the falcon's bane. Currently, ECM is powerful, but ECM boats can't really do anything except ECM, so it's reasonable that they're effective at that one thing. If a falcon couldn't lock down things fairly reliably, they'd just be food for anything with a gun.

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