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Why we need a SIGNIFICANT nerf on lvl4s in hisec.

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Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:37:00 - [391] Originally by: Necrosmith China called. They want their wall back. /thread That was the first truely awesome post in this thread Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:44:00 - [392] Originally by: oilio Originally by: billkroll Raising the amout of time it takes to get new ships would ultimatly push the non-hardcore players towards other games giving me more space in my space sim. I say let them go! Very shortsighted. If they go, then CCP loses revenue. Potentially, quite a lot of revenue. Take a look on the mmorpg charts http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html Notice that in every case, once the graph for a given game starts to go downwards, the game never recovers? The more "casual" players - however much you despise them - are a very important component to Eve online. If you lose them, the game is in trouble. While we're consulting that chart, look at what happens when you split a PvP game into PvE and PvP realms. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:48:00 - [393] Originally by: Malcanis While we're consulting that chart, look at what happens when you split a PvP game into PvE and PvP realms. For sure, but no-one is talking aobut splitting Eve into PvP and PvE realms. We're talking about either changing high sec, or leaving it the SAME.
DMAN666vic	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:49:00 - [394] I don't think level 4 mission running was particularly lucrative given the amount of time you put into them. I found them to be more enjoyable and you get to make a bit of money too. I would be all for 4.5 level mission running in low sec with better bounties and rewards. EVE Exclusive Specialized Search Engine - Search Only Eve Sites!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:57:00 - [395] Originally by: oilio Originally by: Malcanis While we're consulting that chart, look at what happens when you split a PvP game into PvE and PvP realms. For sure, but no-one is talking aobut splitting Eve into PvP and PvE realms. We're talking about either changing high sec, or leaving it the SAME. Strange that, Bears have called for succesive changes to high sec over time. War dec nerf CHECK Suicide gank nerf CHECK More wardec nerf HIGH PRIOIRITY FROM CCP All make high sec far to riskless compared to the isk you can churn in semi afking lv 4 missions. Lv 4 missions need to be nerfed and nerfed hard. All the whiners gogin on about leaving with their 50 accounts wont leave. They never do. And CCP can rest easy knowing they have acted fairly and with an eye for balance for once Cut the rewards drasticaly, no longer shall the bears print isk whilst half watching TV (you know you do it dont lie) SKUNK
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:59:00 - [396] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Kagura Nikon THere aer only 3-4 Level 4 missison thatallow you to reach > 20 mil epr hour (taht with a marauder salvagign while you do it). And you don 't usually will get them more than once per day unless you are really a mission ****. …you only need to get them once per day in order to milk them 23/7. As for requiring a marauder to reach those levels… I can get 15mil/h from those high-end missions in a battlecruiser, and that's before LP (which is maybe another 10mil/h). Just because you don't know how to run missions effectively doesn't mean that they aren't very well-paying (especially considering the complete lack of effort required to run them). Oh and… Quote:* Mining is simplest way to way outperform missiosn running while in 0,0. …congratulations. You just proved his point. No you are wrong, I know how to run missiosn very well. Enough to have bought quite a few Faction BS from LP for me. But even so I make far far far less isk than in 0.0. High sec level 4 might make more isk than Low sec common activities when taken into accoutn risk. But not even close to 0.0. Put in your mind 0.0 is INCREDIBLY SAFE! Mission runngin does give you spikes of 40 mil or more isk pqr hour. But the average is way lower than that (if you usign only 1 character that is what you can do if you don't have an EXCELENT connection), its a fact. I stoped running missiosn because i droped my standign to other empires so much tht would make me impossible to travel in empire, so I ran my share of missions quite enough. And why?... because if you have low sp then yes they are the best way to make isk without much risk (just risk of gettin uber bored). But after you get diversified a bit your SP you can make far far more isk other ways. Even in empire! The only think level 4 need is removal of the T1 loot that produces too much minerals. Apart from that the rest is fine. Msot of the LP store is simply unused because of the lack of enough tags. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:12:00 - [397] Originally by: Le Skunk Strange that, Bears have called for succesive changes to high sec over time. War dec nerf CHECK Your own fault, you just didn't know when to stop. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:16:00 - [398] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Perhaps if you stopped trying to be clever for a second and actually became clever you might find the proof you require. So you still have nothing tangible to say and go for an ad hominem attack instead? Very well played, Sir. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:22:00 - [399] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: oilio Originally by: Malcanis While we're consulting that chart, look at what happens when you split a PvP game into PvE and PvP realms. For sure, but no-one is talking aobut splitting Eve into PvP and PvE realms. We're talking about either changing high sec, or leaving it the SAME. Strange that, Bears have called for succesive changes to high sec over time. War dec nerf CHECK Suicide gank nerf CHECK More wardec nerf HIGH PRIOIRITY FROM CCP All make high sec far to riskless compared to the isk you can churn in semi afking lv 4 missions. Lv 4 missions need to be nerfed and nerfed hard. All the whiners gogin on about leaving with their 50 accounts wont leave. They never do. And CCP can rest easy knowing they have acted fairly and with an eye for balance for once Cut the rewards drasticaly, no longer shall the bears print isk whilst half watching TV (you know you do it dont lie) SKUNK Well, not TV... actually I watch charity documentaries about unfortunate young ladies compelled to do undignified and sinful things to afford the clothes they lack. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:22:00 - [400] BRING BACK ALLIANCE 'P' CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:38:00 - [401] Originally by: Le Skunk War dec nerf CHECK Suicide gank nerf CHECK More wardec nerf HIGH PRIOIRITY FROM CCP Suicide gank needed some balancing. You keep mentioning risk/reward, but the risk to suicide gankers was almost zero. Whether the nerf goes too far as a matter for a different debate (but I think it does - either increase CONCORD response time, or remove insurance, but not both). The wardec nerf issue is still an unknown. CCP have said they are going to look at it. If they nerf it too hard, then I agree that high sec might become too safe. I'm all for making high sec a bit less safe, but what we're debating here is moving L4s to low sec. I still believe that if they do that, or if they SIGNIFICANTLY reduce income from high sec L4s, it will be harmful to the game for the simple reason that Eve will lose a lot of the more casual players. I wish CCP would release stats of how many people are High Sec L4 mission runners. This information would help to determine the impact of the changes you guys are proposing. Without those figures, it comes down to opinion, but my opinion remains that nerfing high sec income will overall have a negative impact on the game.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:42:00 - [402] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 24/08/2008 20:45:09 wow, this thread is still alive.. gonna make a comment about pvp to pvp and pve comment... actually, for ultima online....(memories... of being.. consoler...argh!) the "loss" is actually, errrm, matches the launch of other online games.. yes.. competition... if you count in the number AND the type of the competition... you would see people actually prefer pve more...(beyond me... no murdering people, stealing, griefing...) but yeah, to be real for a sec: pve games do better than pvp games... period... the UO:R's loss of subs is to competitors who are new, pve based and grind grind grind mindless lvl grinding... so... yeah, people are weird... but hey, people do what people do... as long as they pay... I say CCP keep them... edit: as for the nerfs:.. Sucide ganking: one sentance, when people say risk vs reward... it only applies to others huh?... War-dec: I think CCP is trying to errrm, oh god.. make Wardec means something XD... instead of just pay to whack ya-mole.... High sec is never safe.... those who say is safe is kidding themselves... it just depends on how profitable it is to kill you.. or how badly someone wants you dead... that is all.... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.24 21:43:00 - [403] Instead of moving mission agents or outright lowering rewards or that kind of thing, how about this: In the near future, we may see changes which further increase the security of hisec and which will go a long way in further separating a large portion of the playerbase from crime. To turn these changes, CONCORD, in working with each of the Empires, receives a 10% tax from all hisec activities, on top of standard taxation. These taxes will help CONCORD not only rebuild from it's recent losses, but will also help them avoid the level of security that so many have come to rely on. This 10% tax is active in all things, including bounty payouts (player and NPC), market sells of all items (sells being made in hisec stations), market purchases of all items (purchases being made from hisec stations), all agent payouts (kill, courier, production and mining missions), and all rentals (corp office, factory slot and research slots). Even reprocessing fees. This tax does not extend into losec operations, as CONCORD has had to pull many resources from these troubled districts, and is actually able to provide LESS security than before (please note the initial dev blog on pirating being easier in losec). Ta-da! You now have a system that universally hits those who are industrialists AND mission runners, those who are in player corps and NPC corps, market runners and full blown traders ... everybody. Hisec becomes safer, by all means. I'm actually for that sometimes. But somebody has to pay for this extra security, no? Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:37:00 - [404] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Le Skunk Strange that, Bears have called for succesive changes to high sec over time. War dec nerf CHECK Your own fault, you just didn't know when to stop. At by that marker, it will be the bear fault for over exploiting level four missions which will lead to them being nerfed. SKUNK
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:38:00 - [405] Originally by: oilio Originally by: Le Skunk War dec nerf CHECK Suicide gank nerf CHECK More wardec nerf HIGH PRIOIRITY FROM CCP Suicide gank needed some balancing. As does level 4 missions... incoming nerf bat ? SKUNK
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:46:00 - [406] QUESTION What risk, does a NPC corp character running lv4s have in high sec. ANSWER Risk of being suidice ganked = ONLY risk Why do you think there are hundreds of isk farmers running multiple accounts in all the major mission hubs.... Because the only way they ever die is if suicide ganked... and guess what the bears have pressurised CCP into nerfing... suicide ganking. ITs risk free, gains masive rewards and has no place in this game if ccp truley do care about balance. And no mission runner will leave. They all know they are overpowered - And will have grudgin respect for ccp for keeping thing balanced. NERF LV 4s SKUNK
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:49:00 - [407] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: oilio Suicide gank needed some balancing. As does level 4 missions... incoming nerf bat ? SKUNK Actually... Originally by: oilio Suicide gank needed some balancing. You keep mentioning risk/reward, but the risk to suicide gankers was almost zero. Whether the nerf goes too far as a matter for a different debate (but I think it does - either increase CONCORD response time, or remove insurance, but not both). If you're gonna quote, don't deliberately modify the context - makes you look like a troll. Fully insured (and essentially risk-free) suicide ganking had a distinctly negative impact on the game. L4 missions in high sec do not have the same negative impact. I know you argue that they do, but it's not the same as having 800 million worth of ship taken out by people who won't have to pay a pennny for doing it - hence the suicide gank nerf. That's not the same thing as your "I want L4s nerfed" issue. You would like it to be, but it isn't. There is no indication that the nerf-bat is gonna swing at High Sec L4s. This is mainly because High Sec L4s don't really cause any harm. They are essentially victim-less (yeah, I know what's coming now, but I can't be bothered debating that again). Wardec nerfing is a different story. That could be a real mess if CCP aren't very careful with any nerfs they are considering, but no-one knows what is gonna happen with that. Anyway, L4s in High Sec is not the same as risk-free suicide ganking. One has victims (and no consequence for the offender) and the other doesn't.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:49:00 - [408] Originally by: Le Skunk QUESTION What risk, does a NPC corp character running lv4s have in high sec. ANSWER Risk of being suidice ganked = ONLY risk Why do you think there are hundreds of isk farmers running multiple accounts in all the major mission hubs.... Because the only way they ever die is if suicide ganked... and guess what the bears have pressurised CCP into nerfing... suicide ganking. ITs risk free, gains masive rewards and has no place in this game if ccp truley do care about balance. And no mission runner will leave. They all know they are overpowered - And will have grudgin respect for ccp for keeping thing balanced. NERF LV 4s SKUNK Don't nerf level 4's. Tax hisec dwellers. Tax them heavily. Give them all the security that you can manage, and tax them for it. Give a real advantage to those of us who choose not to live in hisec. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:52:00 - [409] Originally by: Ruze Don't nerf level 4's. Tax hisec dwellers. Tax them heavily. Give them all the security that you can manage, and tax them for it. Give a real advantage to those of us who choose not to live in hisec. A high sec tax seems fair enough. Living in high sec means protection by CONCORD. From a "realism" point-of-view, a tax would seem entirely proper.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:00:00 - [410] Originally by: Ruze Don't nerf level 4's. Tax hisec dwellers. Tax them heavily. Give them all the security that you can manage, and tax them for it. Give a real advantage to those of us who choose not to live in hisec. You know? I like that. Really fits in with the whole capitalist dystopia thing this game sometimes exhibits. It would also add another layer of economic depth if done properly, and it would make lowsec more valuable by default regardless of what the market's been doing. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:08:00 - [411] I can't believe that I, as an upstanding American, proposed that taxes could be the solution to ... well, anything! But from a 'realism' standpoint, having major taxes to things in hisec seems damn reasonable to me. This doesn't mean to shift the current profit margins made from hisec activities to cover the cost of the taxes, but to add the taxes wholesale on everything. Be you renting an office, selling a product, or getting bounties from a rat kill. Boom, money in CONCORD's pocket. And it would be unaffected by current trade skills, which reduce the taxes levied by Empires on market activities. Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:17:00 - [412] Yeah, but the devil's in the details as always. How would you implement a concord tax? For mission rewards and bounties it would be pretty easy, you just skim some off the top. What about ore, though? I guess you could scale refine taxes by system sec so that it would be impossible to get "perfect" refining in 0.5 and above. Sales tax? That gets trickier, because it's already more profitable to sell in low sec in a lot of cases. I've advocated variable sales taxes before though to break up trade hubs. And Ruze, there's nothing inherently wrong with taxation. It can be an effective way to manage an economy if used prudently.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.25 02:07:00 - [413] Originally by: Empyre I used to genuinely care about this topic.. the first 300 times it was rehashed. It boggled my mind how logic could pervade some people when trying to honestly debate this. But then it dawned on me, why the hell should I care? The L4 mission nerf cry has been ringing out forever now, and over the years they've only seen touching up. That alone spoke to me and said CCP seems to believe they are well enough balanced. If it was as big of a deal as some of these over-dramatic, sensationalist and frothing at the mouth posters were making it out to be, something would have changed long ago. So now I get genuine amusement out of reading the nerf cries. Aside from the trolls who try so hard to be noticed and only get ignored (another sad story), I picture these people actually believing that if they type something long enough, despite the fact CCP runs the darn game and could prove/disprove their "ideas" in a work-day, that somehow CCP will think, "You know, that guy typed the same shaky argument several times. Let's forget what the data says and make the change." Denial is a helluva drug. I've heard if you keep telling yourself something, you also start to believe it as well. For me, it makes for fun conversation and gives me something to do to wile away the days. And when I'm bored, I go to a separate post and argue the other side. Comes to a point when I forget which side I'm actually rooting for Quote: If you like playing EvE, but don't like to PvP ... Maybe it's time you recognize that you don't really like to play EvE.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:16:00 - [414] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 25/08/2008 03:18:39 I don't care about the "carebears" in hi-sec doing their thing. That's how they choose to play the game and I'm fine with it. I'm fine with people retiring to hi-sec to build up their wallets when their wallets have taken a beating. I care that because of that largely risk free ISK when I want to actively make money the most efficient way, by far, is to run missions in hi-sec. There's really little incentive to do anything else beyond novelty. Beyond devaluing a lot of content it's devaluing entire professions and it's making a mockery of those of us who want to take risks and reap the rewards. The easy supply of cash is also making everything less meaningful and the perceived security is pushing up the prices on items that could be considered "mission runner goods" to the point where the only thing they are good for is mission running. Perhaps worst of all it makes playing solo the most profitable way to make an income in what is supposed to be multi-player game.
Patri Andari Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:41:00 - [415] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 25/08/2008 03:18:39 Beyond devaluing a lot of content it's devaluing entire professions and it's making a mockery of those of us who want to take risks and reap the rewards. The easy supply of cash is also making everything less meaningful and the perceived security is pushing up the prices on items that could be considered "mission runner goods" to the point where the only thing they are good for is mission running. Perhaps worst of all it makes playing solo the most profitable way to make an income in what is supposed to be multi-player game. So many things about this quote just seem wrong but it made me wonder. Imagine a teacher who makes 40k per year with a B.A. finds out that her car salesman is a high school drop out who, like everyone in his shop, makes over 100k per year. Might that teacher feel her profession is somehow "devalued"? I think that if she did she is faced with a choice. She can try her hand at selling cars for more loot or remain a teacher and perhaps reap the other rewards that attracted her to the profession in the first place. ...OR She could complain about how unskilled under-educated individuals making so much f***ing cash somehow devalues her profession...community...life. She could explain how having all that extra cash circulating raises prices she pays for everything because low skilled workers are making too much and paying too much for goods. This raises prices! Risk v reward? What about investment in education v. reward! Heck she could start a campaign to put a cap on the salaries of all car salesmen nation wide! I mean she could...Right? Any who...just wondering. Patri A fool usually thinks he is a genius
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.25 03:50:00 - [416] Originally by: Patri Andari So many things about this quote just seem wrong but it made me wonder. Imagine a teacher who makes 40k per year with a B.A. finds out that her car salesman is a high school drop out who, like everyone in his shop, makes over 100k per year. Might that teacher feel her profession is somehow "devalued"? I think that if she did she is faced with a choice. She can try her hand at selling cars for more loot or remain a teacher and perhaps reap the other rewards that attracted her to the profession in the first place. ...OR She could complain about how unskilled under-educated individuals making so much f*ing cash somehow devalues her profession...community...life. She could explain how having all that extra cash circulating raises prices she pays for everything because low skilled workers are making too much and paying too much for goods. This raises prices! Risk v reward? What about investment in education v. reward! Heck she could start a campaign to put a cap on the salaries of all car salesmen nation wide! I mean she could...Right? Any who...just wondering. Patri /thread ------------------------------------------------- Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.25 05:43:00 - [417] Originally by: Patri Andari So many things about this quote just seem wrong but it made me wonder. Imagine a teacher [and so on and so on] ... because as everybody knows, Real Life(tm) is a game and an artificial environment that is constantly being adjusted for balance by a team of creators. As such it's a perfect analogy for what we're talking about. And what I really mean to say by that is, "go see if you can buy a clue and then come back and give us a long, boring post about the madcap adventures you had in the process." Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby /thread And your little alt, too. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:02:00 - [418] Originally by: Kwedaras Originally by: SSgt Sniper Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 24/08/2008 18:05:46 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette If you're done making up stories, maybe we can go on with the discussion? I call shenannigins on this one. 1. Interceptors can camp gates anywhere in Caldari or Gallente Lowsec. I know, I've seen me do it. The gate guns cannot track you for crap and you will be fine as long as you are REALLY careful. goddammit stop posting. How can we discuss with you when you are clueless? Hide and watch. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:15:00 - [419] Originally by: Dave Davies Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby /thread And your little alt, too. lol, do some research. I've been around more than a little while and have no need to hide behind another player to express my opinion. Just thought the example was funny AND accurate. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Dave Davies	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:27:00 - [420] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Just thought the example was funny AND accurate. You were right on one count, it was pretty funny. But no. Maybe some day when somebody makes a "realism- oriented" MMORPG about building a career in 21st century industrialized society you and that guy and the other four people that play it can use that analogy to great effect. In the mean time, you can trust me when I say it bears zero relation to normal game design. ----- Pop Quiz ----- Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence.

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