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Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
169
   |
Posted - 2012.03.23 22:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
When I heard that CCP was going to be addressing highsec wardecs, my first reaction was trepidation. I'm not convinced that any CCP employees actually do wardecs, or really anything to do with highsec outside of Incursions. I'm not convinced they'll do it right. And with the CEO of Eve-Uni (who couldn't be more harmful to highsec wardecs if he tried) getting a lot of face time with CCP right now, we knew it was time to try and put together something to let CCP know the position of the mercs and deccers in highsec.
So, at the behest of Darius III, I put the calls out to some of the most active wardec corps. We wanted to keep it short and sweet, so we limited it to about ten people. We had guys from several different crowds in the world of hisec mercenaries, "griefers," and all those who make their living through ship-on-ship PVP in high security space. These people are representative of large groups of PVPers that do not work together; in fact, their relations have been extremely adversarial and cutthroat in the past, and the many are actively at odds with each other. Many of these guys will disagree with each other just on principle, so the fact that these CEOs and directors of some of the top tier highsec corps all sat down and largely agreed on essentially every single point that was raised is not only surprising, but extremely telling of the state of the current and future gameplay in hisec.
The people in this discussion are:
Alekseyev Karrde of Noir., one of the most stable and longest-running merc corps of all time
Cannibal Kane, can flipper, mercenary, and representative of the independent solo highsec pvper
Lithalnas, director of Privateers, the group that was so OP at one point that CCP had to redesign the wardec system around their tactics
Iam Widdershins of PRONS, known for their shenanigans
Istyn of Tactical Knightmare (also representing Suddenly Ninjas)
Psychotic Monk (myself), CEO of The Skunkworks, known for their work in killing ignorant incursion runners and long-time wardeccers.
ToxicOz, CEO of Double Tap, who are one of the most effective merc corps in highsec today.
TS5P, director of The Orphanage, which needs no introduction
There were a few who couldn't make it, but were included in the discussion before and after the actual round table, and that included Zedrik Cayne, Kai86, and Istvaan Shogaatsu.
Between these players, we represent hundreds of highsec PvPers, have years and years of experience in the game and in this particular arena especially, and, most importantly, have a great deal of vested interest in highsec not just as a source of ganks, but as our home, where we hope to encourage interesting and challanging gameplay.
We had Darius III officiating. The idea was that he'd forward this to CCP, under the hope that someone would actually listen to the dudes that this most effected. I thought I would also release it to the public, since at least that way it's harder to bury and maybe gets a blue box in this thread.
Enjoy.
Warning: We swear. Me especially.
Make clicks in order to listen. |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
659
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 23:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
I fully endorse this product and/or service. Also I spent hours working on it so my endorsement is clearly invalid.
Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
305
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 23:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bump!
In irae, veritas. |
Garven Dreis
Count With Teddy Mercenaries
Stay Calm Don't Panic
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 23:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Very good discussion, hopefully the Devs will take time out to listen AND considerate it.
In Manticore we Trust |
Singeabooty Raj
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet
263
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 00:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bump. Well worth a listen.
Black Man with Goggles |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 00:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hey just hope CCP shows up.. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 01:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
174
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 01:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer.
Clearly didn't read the OP or listen to the round table. |
Rita May
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 01:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Good ideas, like the wardec stuff - worth to listen.
And I think this has nothing to do with "griefer-tears" or somthing along that line: they are trying to address some fundamental problems in the current mechanics for both sides. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 01:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer. Clearly didn't read the OP or listen to the round table.
Clearly just trying to dismiss me because he can't argue against my valid points. |
Shriven89
Tactical Knightmare
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 01:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
T'Pawhl, you are some kind of idiot. Leave EVE, go play WoW. That is what you really want to do.
EVE, not just PVP, is ALL about risk, consequences, and conflict. Be that ship on ship fighting, or economic warfare. EVE's main, and strongest strength is that everything that happens in the game is caused by people. To bugger about with highsec shenanignas means changing the fundamental core of EVE.
The average gamer doesn't play EVE, because it's too difficult. Honestly, with your viewpoint, you are clearly playing the wrong game. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:EVE, not just PVP, is ALL about risk, consequences, and conflict.
This is exactly why I support things like Crime Watch and "suspect flagging" and the change to neutral reppers: Because EVE is all about risk and consequences and conflict, not "Oh, I'm gonna suicide gank this Hulk and make some ISK - teehee, then me and my friends will go rat in 0.0 or low-sec and earn my sec status back in an hour!" or "Teehee, I have an alt in NPC alliance, you can't blow me up now! Teehee!"
The fact of the matter is you only want consequences for other players, and you want to be the sole administrators of the consequences you make up while exploiting ill-conceived game mechanics.
Quote:The average gamer doesn't play EVE, because it's too difficult. Honestly, with your viewpoint, you are clearly playing the wrong game.
This is what little boys with nothing else to be proud of in life tell themselves: "I'm an elite gamer because I play EVE! Yay for me!"
The reality: CCP is a business and EVE Online is a game they sell. |
Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
90
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer.
During the roundtable, we brought up the lack of risk on the griefer side with the current mechanics - because, lets be honest, it is skewed in favour of the can flipper, but there's also the fact that the guy shooting made the concious decision to attempt to kill the can flipper.
If you listened to the roundtable, you'd have heard that our main issue with the currently proposed suspect flag is the sec status loss incurred when defending yourself - that doesn't make much sense. CCP Greyscale also made a post recently that you may in fact not be able to defend yourself while you have a suspect flag, something that really is fundamentally against the core of EVE.
The changes being made could clearly improve the current situation, providing they're made with feedback from the people they will affect, to prevent entire playstyles being ruined and high sec changing from 'safer' space to 'safe' space, again something that is against the principles of EVE.
You'll have also noticed, during the roundtable, we actually brought up mechanics currently in use by griefers/war deccers that create seriously one-sided situations and are broken on the same scale as dec shielding - asking for a nerf of a current mechanic in use by certain people, if we were self-centred bullies who were risk averse?
I do recommend you listen to the roundtable in full, this is not another 'WAAA CHANGE IS SCARY' thread, rather one offering constructive feedback to CCP and the CSM (through Darius) from the people that will be affected by these changes. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
It was really cute when one of the griefers was like:
"If I flip someone's can and his Corp mates attack me, why should I get a sec-hit for shooting back at them? I'M JUST DEFENDING MYSELF!"
lololol Actions have consequences!
Quote:CCP Greyscale also made a post recently that you may in fact not be able to defend yourself while you have a suspect flag, something that really is fundamentally against the core of EVE.
Well you're just going to have to accept that risk when you go out and grief! lolol :) |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
308
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer.
You clearly didn't listen to that session, did you.
Especially the part where all present were discussing trade-offs that would affect them negatively (example: The deccer's docking, dropping corp, then instantly un-docking to pew the ones who had aggro to them whilst their corpmates can now do nothing to help unless they want to get themselves CONCORD'ed...)
Typical myopic carebear response.
E: If what "the average gamer" now is, is as worm's-eye-view myopic as you, and that is what CCP wants to cater to, then there will be no "EVE 2.0." There will be no EVE, full-stop, as once the sandbox is compromised that fatally, then all we are left with is....A bad game.
In irae, veritas. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer. You clearly didn't listen to that session, did you. Especially the part where all present were discussing trade-offs that would affect them negatively (example: The deccer's docking, dropping corp, then instantly un-docking to pew the ones who had aggro to them whilst their corpmates can now do nothing to help unless they want to get themselves CONCORD'ed...) Typical myopic carebear response. E: If what "the average gamer" now is, is as worm's-eye-view myopic as you, and that is what CCP wants to cater to, then there will be no "EVE 2.0." There will be no EVE, full-stop, as once the sandbox is compromised that fatally, then all we are left with is....A bad game.
Awww don't be mad because your actions will have consequences now.
Actually yes - please be more mad and act more entitled and indignant.
Greifer tears are best tears. |
Emperor Khain
Hardcore p0wnography
22
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:The thing everyone at the round-table didn't consider is that these changes won't ruin the game - they'll just ruin the game for you, and 90% of EVE wishes you would just go away anyhow.
Heh, it's so funny when griefers go on and on about risk, consequences, etc etc... but as soon as griefing starts to have some risks and consequences, they cry cry cry.
Heh, just a buncha childish self-centered bullies. Welcome to EVE 2.0; CCP now cares about the average gamer.
Are you posting from an NPC alt by any chance?
Plus you're a moron. plain and simple. The mechanics before the changes were skewed, the mechanics now are skewed entirely and much worse.
They need to be changed to be as fair as possible towards both sides. And sadly enough (and how much I hate the OP here....) the round table were trying to make changes fair too.
T'Pawhl, you are stupid and ignorant. Leave the conversation to the adults and go play your WoW. |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Emperor Khain wrote:Insults, go play WoW, no valid points, bla bla bla.
You mad broh? |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked.
In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs.  |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked. In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs.
Hey I like your corporation name. It's very mafioso -
"Criminal? I ain't no stinkin' criminal. I'm a business man - I work in income redistribution." |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked. In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs. Hey I like your corporation name. It's very mafioso - "Criminal? I ain't no stinkin' criminal. I'm a business man - I work in income redistribution."
3/10 |
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
187
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:We had Darius III officiating. The idea was that he'd forward this to CCP, under the hope that someone would actually listen to the dudes that this most effected. I thought I would also release it to the public, since at least that way it's harder to bury and maybe gets a blue box in this thread. Enjoy. Warning: We swear. Me especially. Make clicks in order to listen.
Awesome job, glad you guys got together and organized a unified message to CCP.
|
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
256
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
For those of you who mainly stick to C&P and don't check out other forum sections a whole lot, there are a few major threads in General Discussion that have ongoing debates, including debates with Greyscale himself. They're kind of stuck in no-man's land right now; a whole lot of bears are doing their best to spam "htfu gankbears" as much as possible, and the dev responses are consistently "well we don't know yet, there are some things we have to do, no promises, can't say one way or the other, we need to rewrite code" etc etc.
If you have something constructive to add, check them out.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=84723
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=85002
The current outlook right now is that come Sunday, CCP will announce plans that will severely restrict empire wars. If we want to affect the final outcome, we will need a significantly greater presence in the forums that the devs actually pay attention to. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
175
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 03:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thanks, Des. I mean, if it's something they've already decided, then it's probably too late, but it certainly can't hurt to try!
Also, even if they limit wardecs but make scraping illegal again then it's an improvement. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
256
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 04:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
No matter what they decide now, if the outcry is big enough, they won't be able to go through with the changes. Greyscale himself admitted that if it wasn't for the heavy negative feedback, the fighting-back-as-a-suspect-gets-you-CONCORDed thing would still be on the table. Now, thankfully, it appears not to be. But we really do need the big-shot names like the wardec roundtable crew to start posting there, because right now it feels as if Greyscale made a concession instead of a return to rational thought. |
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 06:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Damnit, I'm a bigshot too!!!!
btw, I agree with Skunky.
oh and everyone post on your main in this thread if you would :) |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
659
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 06:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked. In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs.
I'm sorry to say that there are actually people that exist like this in real life. I don't think it's a troll, it's just very sad.
Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
T'Pawhl
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 06:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked. In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs. I'm sorry to say that there are actually people that exist like this in real life. I don't think it's a troll, it's just very sad.
And yet no one can seem to refute a single point I made. It's all just smack talk. Hehe. ;) |
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
659
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 06:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:Iam Widdershins wrote:I'm sorry to say that there are actually people that exist like this in real life. I don't think it's a troll, it's just very sad. And yet no one can seem to refute a single point I made. It's all just smack talk. Hehe. ;)
There is nothing anyone needs to do to say. The contents of the post through-and-through refutes your statements.
I bring it to you, instead, to name something specific that we are advocating that is specifically harmful to someone else's gameplay. Unless you can name something that actually matches your argument, you're just making wind.
Lobbying for your right to delete your signature |
Cannibal Kane
Brotherhood of KANE
313
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 06:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
T'Pawhl wrote:Iam Widdershins wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:... You do realize T'Pawhl is just trolling the #^@ out of you right? One would think it would be kinda obvious from how hard he has been trying. Normally I'd rate the attempt at 2/10 or less just cuz it's so blatant. But it worked. In a way T'Pawhl is kinda like a can-flipper baiting noobs. I'm sorry to say that there are actually people that exist like this in real life. I don't think it's a troll, it's just very sad. And yet no one can seem to refute a single point I made. It's all just smack talk. Hehe. ;)
May I point out, you made no point. You were also just smack talking.
Be that as it may, all of this was just a discussion on current war dec that curbs Agressors as well as Defenders. What CCP decides to do is still up in the air.
I think people can go of their trollies the minute FACTS are released.
I agree with everything and as I stated in other threads. With the propsed system I don't mind being attacked by EVERYBODY. What I do mind is the fact that if I survive long enough to actually kill somebody while defending myself from the MOB of VIGILANTIES, why do I need to take sec hit as well? Isn't being aggressed by 10, 20, 30, 40, or even entire highsec enough of a consequence?
Just remember one very important fact, war decs aside, in it's current form people CHOOSE to engage can flippers, some of them are lucky some die Horribly in swarm of Corporate vengeance. I don't see a change here, I would like however to see CCP police starter/noob systems better.
In the end everybodie enjoys their part of the game. Everybody whines about a part of the game they don't take part in even if they nothing off it, but i see very little suggestion on how they think it should work that does not result in some form change making it completely useless.
As for the round table, I was impressed by the willingness by these gentlemen to restrict wars from the aggressor side to favor the defender as well. That is a good compremise. They all know what is wrong and it is things they say needs fixing which will make their life as it is harder as well. And thats a good thing for everybody.
I see nothing like this coming from the other school of thought, where as a Indy char they want to be totally safe in what they do. No comprimise, I WANT A OFF BUTTON FOR PEOPLE SHOOTING AT ME.
Thats not a comprise now is it?
In the end what ever change is brought, I am certain there will be alot whining either way, I will however adapt to the game I came to enjoy. So why don't people stop trolling for a second and actually try to contribute to the game they enjoy playing as well.
I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist. |
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