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Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:04:00 - [1] just wanted to ask people on how they think gallente will be after nano nerf, i know ammar adn caldari will be good any ideas on gallente? wardeneo
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Wardeneo just wanted to ask people on how they think gallente will be after nano nerf, i know ammar adn caldari will be good any ideas on gallente? wardeneo Blaster boats are taking a hit. The smaller and faster the BB, the less it'll suffer I imagine, but the BS BB's are going to feel it. Ishtar is great nano'd, but that will no longer be viable. You can try tanking it out, but I'd personally fly a domi over a tanked ishtar in 90% of situations. Gallente have some very nice smaller ships though, and they should still do fine post patch.
Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Wardeneo just wanted to ask people on how they think gallente will be after nano nerf, i know ammar adn caldari will be good any ideas on gallente? wardeneo Blaster boats are taking a hit.. this is what i was thinking :( i love blaster boats, diemos, brutix, mega etc but soon they might strugly to get to there targets, thats my only fear! wardeneo
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.24 17:17:00 - [4] Hey Wardeneo.. long time no see man. The way things are looking right now: - BS Blasters are taking a huge hit in effectiveness from the web/agility/speed nerf - Ishtar is taking a huge hit in effectiveness because it can no longer be nano'd - Diemost is still a glass cannon with no HP - Arazu/Lachesis are getting boosts via the scram boost. Keres will still suck (sorry) - Taranis is getting a boost because it's easier to catch and kill stuff - Ishkur/Enyo are looking Sexo Hottz because of a general rebalancing of AF's. Avoid the Wolf because it's custom made to gank other AF's. - Brutix/Myrm I haven't spent any time in so I can't comment. Uh, that's all I can think of right now... but the blaster situation is really dire. They'll have to really screw over missiles to make blasters worthwhile... and even still they've had a massive effectiveness nerf due to mass/acceleration changes. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.24 18:25:00 - [5] blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.24 19:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. Rule number one of the Eve O forums: Whatever Stab Wounds says, believe the opposite.
Valtis Thermalion Caldari Humantarget	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. With 400% increase in transversal velocity, and with worse speed and agility, blaster boats are hardly "fine" after the patch, especially since missile boats have no issues with these changes.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. With 400% increase in transversal velocity, and with worse speed and agility, blaster boats are hardly "fine" after the patch, especially since missile boats have no issues with these changes. 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet.
Killiker Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:08:00 - [9] Edited by: Killiker on 24/08/2008 20:13:08 edit: Also id like to say that the Ishtar use to work fine tanked before people use to nano it. People need to learn to adapt blasters are for real men anyway ;)
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Stab Wounds 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. It's 300%, actually. Math works as follows: TQ: X m/s * (1 - 0.9) = 0.1X m/s Test: X m/s * (1 - 0.6) = 0.4X m/s They'll be going 4x as fast in web range (300% speed increase). -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. With 400% increase in transversal velocity, and with worse speed and agility, blaster boats are hardly "fine" after the patch, especially since missile boats have no issues with these changes. 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. It's actually 300% increase, or 400% of original value. And no, he's not exaggerating. Pre-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 30m/s (90% reduction) Post-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 120m/s (60% reduction) Speed while webbed is now 4 times faster than it used to be... 4x faster = 400% of origianl value, or 1x value + 3x value, or 100% + 300%, or 300% increase. l2math? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:15:00 - [12] Quickfix: boost large blaster tracking.
New Prophet Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:17:00 - [13] So our only viable ship after the nerf is a dominix and maybe a Azaru.
Valtis Thermalion Caldari Humantarget	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. With 400% increase in transversal velocity, and with worse speed and agility, blaster boats are hardly "fine" after the patch, especially since missile boats have no issues with these changes. 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. It's actually 300% increase, or 400% of original value. And no, he's not exaggerating. Pre-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 30m/s (90% reduction) Post-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 120m/s (60% reduction) Speed while webbed is now 4 times faster than it used to be... 4x faster = 400% of origianl value, or 1x value + 3x value, or 100% + 300%, or 300% increase. l2math? I fail at math :(
Valtis Thermalion Caldari Humantarget	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Stab Wounds 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. As with my "tears", I fly only caldari hulls, but I do realize that gallente ships are getting nerfed for no reason at all. Nanos are somewhat overpowered at the moment, especially when fitted with faction gear etc. but the scale of this nerf both severely hurts speed tanking AND close range turret ships.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:24:00 - [16] Originally by: New Prophet So our only viable ship after the nerf is a dominix and maybe a Azaru. Hmm, I think a somewhat complete list of worthwhile Gallente ships after the nano nerf: Iskhur (AF boost) Enyo (AF boost) Taranis (speed normalization means you can catch more things in a plate setup) Thorax (Med blasters track ok still) Vexor (Not nerfed at all) Ishtar (T2 sentries + TD and it's still an ok ship) Phobos (Lowsec piracy, of course) Brutix (Cheap high dps ganker, med blasters still track ok) Astarte (Eh, if you got the cash I guess) Domi (Not nerfed) Thanatos (Decent carrier) Moros (Excellent dread) Itty 5 (Great hauler. :p) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:24:00 - [17] Edited by: Ruciza on 24/08/2008 20:25:06 Gallente tears fuel my will to live. Especially tears of unwarranted whining.
Arkadrell	Posted - 2008.08.24 20:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 24/08/2008 20:25:06 Gallente tears fuel my will to live. Especially tears of unwarranted whining. this is sad, a min picking a gallente, isnt the new thing gonna hurt both of you abit (mostly mins) and strengthening caldari even more and slightly amarr too?
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 21:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. With 400% increase in transversal velocity, and with worse speed and agility, blaster boats are hardly "fine" after the patch, especially since missile boats have no issues with these changes. 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. It's actually 300% increase, or 400% of original value. And no, he's not exaggerating. Pre-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 30m/s (90% reduction) Post-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 120m/s (60% reduction) Speed while webbed is now 4 times faster than it used to be... 4x faster = 400% of origianl value, or 1x value + 3x value, or 100% + 300%, or 300% increase. l2math? Keep in mind who you're arguing with. You're taking a stab wounds post way too seriously. Of course it's nonsense, look at the poster, heh. Of course he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, look at the poster. Of course there's no point arguing, or even taking it seriously, look at ... you get the point.
Gimpb Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.24 23:51:00 - [20] The web nerf will make things hard for large ships trying to shoot small ones, but for small ships trying to fight large ones it's a big boost. It'll be a hit to the blasterthron, no doubt, but think about the boost it will be for the smaller blaster boats when attacking bigger stuff. Honestly, anything that helps smaller ships perform well against larger ships is a good thing in my book. Neuts and drones are enough of an advantage for larger ships, imho. So it might be a hit for the blasterthron, but for the incursus, tristan, ishkur, enyo, thorax, vexor, diemos, and taranis... game on!
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:36:00 - [21] Ypu know, in late 05 / early 06, blaster boats did fine before the nano craze kicked in. The rebalance / mod change in Warp Scramblers might change how one can approach a target with MWD's if they go through with plans as suggested, but blasters worked pre nano ago just fine. Hell, you might actually start catching some targets that have slowed down and are no longer viable as a nano boat. Any one considered that ?
Kira Novia	Posted - 2008.08.25 00:58:00 - [22] I've spec'd Gallente. So I am a blaster-pilot. I've played with a Deimos and Astarte on SiSi... If the mass nerf + web nerf + mwd changes go through, it's over for blaster boats. Period. Anybody who tells you different either doesn't fly blaster boats, hasn't been on SiSi, or just hates them because they always die. CCP is taking a sledge hammer to fix a glass window and it isn't right.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.25 02:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Radcjk Ypu know, in late 05 / early 06, blaster boats did fine before the nano craze kicked in. The rebalance / mod change in Warp Scramblers might change how one can approach a target with MWD's if they go through with plans as suggested, but blasters worked pre nano ago just fine. Hell, you might actually start catching some targets that have slowed down and are no longer viable as a nano boat. Any one considered that ? It's not the nano nerf that's killing blasters.. it's the mass/acceleration "tweaks" to blaster boats (meaning that you spend 3/4's of your capacitor just getting to the target because you accelerate so dog slow) coupled with the 4x speed increase that ships are getting in web range. Blasters are essentially getting their tracking cut to a third of what it is now. It's a nerf to more than just nanos. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Tacit Malice	Posted - 2008.08.25 04:35:00 - [24] So are projectiles screwed now too? Last time I checked my medium weapons didn't track much better than blasters. I guess a TD will be a common addition to ones arsenal.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.25 04:43:00 - [25] It's a boost to ships like the Deimos and Astarte which at current have far too limited range to be viable in nano-warfare and aren't particually fast either (Who's idea was it to make ships with point-blank-range weaponry that were really slow anyway? ) Megathron will be taking a massive hit however, in that it can no longer solo-kill any ship under 10km of it thanks to the ever-overpowered 90% Web. - Infectious -
Zo5o Gallente Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.08.25 05:43:00 - [26] Quote: So are Minmatar screwed now too Yes, and FTFY.
Corelous Alterrian Amarr Beyond Evil and Good	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:57:00 - [27] STOP WHINING ABOUT NANO NERF!! GOD! You people are driving me NUTZ!! I can see both sides of this. The Nanoers say that you can counter it, And you can. Use tactics you morons! If your in a group and are attacked by Nano ships SPACE OUT and predict there orbit be where they are going to be and stop trying to chase something you know you can't get! A nano Vaga attacked my group the other day he started his orbit on one ship I looked at the screen predicted his orbit and moved to be where he would be at about 300 degrees from where he was. BOOM! WEBBIED slowed down and now a setting fracken duck! I hate Nano's myself. You can cry all you want that "You spent time and Isk on figuring it out" You didn't someone gave you your set up and you only spent ISK on your equipment. CCP's arguement is a valid one. You shouldn't be able to use a battleship as a inty. Whats the point of a iny than. Ships should be able to do there role and not what ever role you can make them do. The inys sole job is to lockdown the target so that the fleet can warp in and blast the target. Don't fret tho you cheaters will figure out another way to screw over the younger players soon enuff. Yea Cry me a river saying "O I've been in this game 4 years" WHO CARES its a game. In the end its CCP's game and if they want to change it it's there's to change. Go play WOW if you don't like it. Go Nano your 40th level fighter. You can still PVP with out the NANO nerf. Sidenote> CCP could make NANO ships only work in 0.0 like bomb launchers. Frankly I don't care I play the game to have fun and if someone counters my tatic than I am the first one to say "Good fight" Grow up and stop being a bunch of Cry babys
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.25 06:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Corelous Alterrian Grow up and stop being a bunch of Cry babys Very constructive post, except that we're not whining about the nano nerf. We're whining about the blaster boat nerf that comes rolled up with it. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Boz Well on 25/08/2008 07:03:01 Originally by: "Corelous aka some noob" I hate nanos you're all cheaters waaaaaaaaah Funny how your post seems to be the whiniest one in the thread. If you're going to cry the loudest, you might not want to tell other people to stop crying at the same time. The hypocrisy sort of detracts from your argument, eh? And the tried and true "go play wow" line? Can't cry babies get some new material? That's so overused. Come up with something original, then cry.. er, I mean try again.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:14:00 - [30] Quote: "yeah but AB seems to get the job done anyway just a bit worse" You've convinced me. Roll out the AB blasterboats and vagabonds, it's time to adapt!
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Boz Well Quote: "yeah but AB seems to get the job done anyway just a bit worse" Roll out the AB blasterboats and vagabonds I will!
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:19:00 - [32] Originally by: RayBanJockey You people can discuss the changes and all the doom they bring, predict which ships that will or won't be able to do this and that and generally cry havoc all day long - but you know very well that when the patch comes and you've had a chance a actually try it out a bit in "RL" scenarios you'll all go like "Oh, it's all ok then", or "yeah but AB seems to get the job done anyway just a bit worse" etc. Uh, yeah. So, have you actually logged onto the test server and tested the speed changes? Blaster ships are screwed: - You can't hit at range (optimal + falloff is too low) - You can't hit up close (Ships are going 4x as fast as they used to in web range...) It's really as though they took blaster tracking and cut it to a quarter. Yet you say it's all going to be "ok". Quote: It'll be a change in game tactics, and we will all be in the race to adapt accordingly. Fun fun fun? Yes yes yes! I don't have to "race". I have Caldari BS 5. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:21:00 - [33] Guess what? We can fitt other stuff on the ships!! OMG! Stop whining.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:24:00 - [34] try fitting an AB and tracking enhancers on your megathron and stop whining. raven doesn't even get to fit tackle if has to tank.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Guess what? We can fitt other stuff on the ships!! OMG! Stop whining. I'd love to see a nice comparison of the "other stuff". Railthron versus torp raven? Railthron versus pulsegeddon? I'm not talking 1v1, but effectiveness. Not all situations call for a sniper fit, and rails up close are a bit fail imo.
RayBanJockey	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Guess what? We can fitt other stuff on the ships!! OMG! Stop whining. Sorry no you can't. In pvp you MUST have a MWD or you can't use your ship, especially if it's not a blaster boat. If you ever have, are doing so now, or find yourself doing it after the patch you are clearly just smoking too strong stuff. Ask liang, he's tested it on the test server!
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Stab Wounds try fitting an AB and tracking enhancers on your megathron and stop whining. raven doesn't even get to fit tackle if has to tank. Seriously, buff the Raven. These AB blasterboats need another nerf, if anything. Damn AB blasterboats are so overpowered, with their crazy tracking enhancers and 400 m/s speed.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.25 07:35:00 - [38] Originally by: RayBanJockey Sorry no you can't. In pvp you MUST have a MWD or you can't use your ship, especially if it's not a blaster boat. If you ever have, are doing so now, or find yourself doing it after the patch you are clearly just smoking too strong stuff. Ask liang, he's tested it on the test server! AB and blasters will probably mix on an AF for comedy killmails. Battleship blasters, however, simply do not work. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Jim Pansen2 Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.25 08:37:00 - [39] Edited by: Jim Pansen2 on 25/08/2008 08:39:31 Originally by: Radcjk Ypu know, in late 05 / early 06, blaster boats did fine before the nano craze kicked in. The rebalance / mod change in Warp Scramblers might change how one can approach a target with MWD's if they go through with plans as suggested, but blasters worked pre nano ago just fine. Hell, you might actually start catching some targets that have slowed down and are no longer viable as a nano boat. Any one considered that ? Actual the same thing that i was thinking. But a few cons apeard: Accelation is slower, you need longer time till you get in Range(you take more Damage/burn more Cap). Also your speed is slower favoring the Target at range. The new Scrambler leaving you dead in the water at 7-8km if you overshoot the target with the MWD, biggest Problem from my point of view at medium Blasters without the Falloffbonus. Trackingissues even against Targets of the same size, leave alone smaller ones. Range issues, with the weaker Web, the Target is still able to get out of your Range that can be coutered with the MWD(if it¦s not disrupted), but leads to more Cap use. Most Blaster ships don¦t orbit because of the massive reduction of her own Damage to, so they don¦t realy improve with the lesser webs at all. 2006/2008 More HP on any Ship. Rigs that mostly work in the favour of Tank setup. Torp Boost Laser Boost(mostly because of the changed Resistance) Tier 2 BCs and Tier 3 BS that are designed for tanking/Ganking. General bigger Fleets/Gangs where more Range is often better than more DPS. MWD is now a general Module on next to any ship. Drone Ships still work fine, Ishtar isn¦t this bad tanked, if you want to pick on Cruisers and Frigs it¦s one of the best ships. With the changes to Nanos i hoped you can pick on more targets now, but in the end, as sideeffect of most of the Changes you even have problems with Targets that favoured the Blaster ship before. --- Alt of The Djego, currently on a long therm Skill.
Yuri Vladomirovic	Posted - 2008.08.25 09:38:00 - [40] Ishtar wont be bad. Ok, it will loose damage immunity, cause of its uber speed, but it will be still enough to decide who to fight with, and this is how it should be. Blaster boats will get a slap in the face, but its not the first time, we got used to it. Still, best for suicide ganking: Brutix / Thorax My question is, Sbombers will get a huge boost, aye? Will be the Nemesis useful? Tell me its truth!!! BTW, IMHO the rep bonus on the Brutix and the Myrmi sux, an idea for a change: tracking or falloff bonus for the Brutix, hybrid damage bonus for the Myrmi, or +10m3 bandwith / bc skill (so if bc skill is on lvl5, u can fly 5 heavies).
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:49:00 - [41] Edited by: Euriti on 25/08/2008 10:49:43 Blasterboats are **ed by this change, saying otherwise is just dumb to be fairly honest. Holding down targets will be so hard especially because you have to have mwd on to keep up with your target if he has a desire to flee. Your tracking will also go to shit, also stab wounds is just a troll who **es on peoples cherios, ignore him, he isn't worth your time. No, afterburners is not an option. No, 9km scramblers are not an option.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:02:00 - [42] the intent of the patch was not to nurf blaster boats, so blasters will get buffed to meet the changing enviornment. Missles however are going to get nurfed for the exact same reasons. ---- GO BLUE!!
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Wardeneo Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Wardeneo just wanted to ask people on how they think gallente will be after nano nerf, i know ammar adn caldari will be good any ideas on gallente? wardeneo Blaster boats are taking a hit.. this is what i was thinking :( i love blaster boats, diemos, brutix, mega etc but soon they might strugly to get to there targets, thats my only fear! wardeneo Tough luck :P Caldari need a little PvP boost I say.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:48:00 - [44] The new breed of AF's will probably be quite good at fleetbattles (or bigger gangs). Those fitted with AB + blasters (gallente) and they can go with enough speed even when webbed (no more 90%). Getting into range with AB solo will be next to impossible as it is now, but you can always use others do fix that problem. It's just a matter of getting those AB ships close enough. Solo blasting might be doomed though...
Jim Pansen2 Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky the intent of the patch was not to nurf blaster boats, so blasters will get buffed to meet the changing enviornment. Missles however are going to get nurfed for the exact same reasons. I agree, I personaly like many of the changes, even the Web and Scrambler change. Im only disapointed how heavy her affect was on ships that are not a Problem atm(mostly close Range Setups with any kind of close Range Turret) in the end. I like the new style, but it is hard to find a paticular thing where to start fixing on short Range ships without breaking the system again. In particular Blaster ships are took the hardest hit because they got the shortest Range and need to hold her Target at this ranges to win a fight, what is preaty oposite to the hole new system. Many posts and points have been made so far at the issue and I hope for a more balanced system from CCP that don¦t make several Ships(not only Blaster Ships) very underperfoming in her dedicated use. --- Alt of The Djego, currently on a long therm Skill.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Originally by: Stab Wounds 400%? talk about exaggerating. blasters have the best tracking of all guns. keep crying youre tears are sweet. As with my "tears", I fly only caldari hulls, but I do realize that gallente ships are getting nerfed for no reason at all. Nanos are somewhat overpowered at the moment, especially when fitted with faction gear etc. but the scale of this nerf both severely hurts speed tanking AND close range turret ships. The only race unaffected by this will be ammar, by severely fcking over blasters ccp are going to have to dearly faunicate missiles from the rear, and now only the drake will be flyable and the nighthawk/cerb will be even worse..wow its lucky i trained for railguns.. poudly annoying fc's since 2007* Originally by: Sheriff Jones ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners...goes back to reading
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky the intent of the patch was not to nurf blaster boats, so blasters will get buffed to meet the changing enviornment. Missles however are going to get nurfed for the exact same reasons. Ok but where does it say that? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer The new breed of AF's will probably be quite good at fleetbattles (or bigger gangs). Those fitted with AB + blasters (gallente) and they can go with enough speed even when webbed (no more 90%). Getting into range with AB solo will be next to impossible as it is now, but you can always use others do fix that problem. It's just a matter of getting those AB ships close enough. Solo blasting might be doomed though... Why would you bring a AF to a fleetbattle? Vote against the nano nerf!
Krystal Demishy	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Valtis Thermalion I fly only caldari hulls, but I do realize that gallente ships are getting nerfed for no reason at all. Nanos are somewhat overpowered at the moment, especially when fitted with faction gear etc. but the scale of this nerf both severely hurts speed tanking AND close range turret ships. I just wanted to say that i would love if everybody got the same fairplay you got :) Thank you sir ;) Note: i'm serious.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.08.25 13:15:00 - [50] Well no point in bringing a cruiser you can't fly effectively, if you can bring a high skilled AF. The best ship is the ship you can fly the best...what you do with it is another matter. It's not like fleetbattles just have one types of ship (also, cruisers and frigs melt with doomdays in equal manner :)) In the upcoming nerf a AF in close range will be a real *****.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:47:00 - [51] Gallente will be buffed because drone speeds remain unnerfed. I think.
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Ruciza Gallente will be buffed because drone speeds remain unnerfed. I think. That's such a small buff it doesn't even matter.
Celes Lockheart	Posted - 2008.08.27 20:49:00 - [53] Edited by: Celes Lockheart on 27/08/2008 20:48:59 The new value of the stasis webifier is -60% ? I think it's ok, 2 stasis webifier (one from you and one from a friend for exemple) = -84%
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.27 20:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Celes Lockheart Edited by: Celes Lockheart on 27/08/2008 20:48:59 The new value of the stasis webifier is -60% ? I think it's ok, 2 stasis webifier (one from you and one from a friend for exemple) = -84% No, because webs stack... -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Mr Ignitious Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:18:00 - [55] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 27/08/2008 21:19:23 Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. with everything slowing down it will be easier to catch people with a blaster ship and slower drones will work better. umm but so will the ship your in so you wont catch anything cuz you're too damn slow in your blaster boat. They will never dish out their dps cuz they will never reach their target. Webs effectiveness is going to be useless. Anything with a scram will ensure that all blaster boats are way out in super deep fall off... at best, thus shit dps (like minmitar) so unless you're fighting afker's, youre not catching anything Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Guess what? We can fitt other stuff on the ships!! OMG! Stop whining. like what? rails? lol.
london Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:29:00 - [56] It sounds like blasters need a boost in tracking and range. Or would that make them overpowered? I'm sure there is a sweet spot they can reach.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Celes Lockheart Edited by: Celes Lockheart on 27/08/2008 20:48:59 The new value of the stasis webifier is -60% ? I think it's ok, 2 stasis webifier (one from you and one from a friend for exemple) = -84% No, because webs stack... -Liang ? _________________________________________________
Strill	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:49:00 - [58] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Celes Lockheart Edited by: Celes Lockheart on 27/08/2008 20:48:59 The new value of the stasis webifier is -60% ? I think it's ok, 2 stasis webifier (one from you and one from a friend for exemple) = -84% No, because webs stack... -Liang ? I think he means webs are stack-nerfed.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Strill Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Celes Lockheart Edited by: Celes Lockheart on 27/08/2008 20:48:59 The new value of the stasis webifier is -60% ? I think it's ok, 2 stasis webifier (one from you and one from a friend for exemple) = -84% No, because webs stack... -Liang ? I think he means webs are stack-nerfed. They are? _________________________________________________
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.27 21:54:00 - [60] Originally by: madaluap They are? They were last I looked (at least web drones...) and even if they weren't, 84% still means it takes two of you to get less effect than one person now, and 5 to get the effect of two. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: madaluap They are? They were last I looked (at least web drones...) and even if they weren't, 84% still means it takes two of you to get less effect than one person now, and 5 to get the effect of two. -Liang Oh yeh, webdrones sure. You are right about that, allthough im pretty sure that 2* -90% webs slow you down to 1%....eventually. Oh, lets just wait what the nano-nerf will bring. Cannot get worse than a megathron with 1 co-proc, crap damage/resists and major ca****ues vs a 8 heatsink, 3 sensorboost, 7 megapulse geddon. Amarr will still feel the hurt. _________________________________________________
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:48:00 - [62] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Liang Nuren No, because webs stack... -Liang They are? Originally by: CCP Nozh We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing. Linkage No idea if they have removed it though.
Richard Soren	Posted - 2008.08.28 06:56:00 - [63] I¦m wondering why nobody is testing it at Multi. When I¦m logging in there are 3 players at the server (thry to find somebody to test the new configs...... ). Three pages full of whine and brabbeling and assumptions but nobody verifying something...... Come on the server, let¦s get a test and then let¦s whine (which is unavoidable anyway )
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 07:27:00 - [64] Originally by: Richard Soren I¦m wondering why nobody is testing it at Multi. When I¦m logging in there are 3 players at the server (thry to find somebody to test the new configs...... ). Three pages full of whine and brabbeling and assumptions but nobody verifying something...... Come on the server, let¦s get a test and then let¦s whine (which is unavoidable anyway ) FFS it just came back up today mate. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.28 08:42:00 - [65] How about just increasing a little bit blaster's optimal and falloff ? So that way it can at least do any damage while it ''tries'' to get to the target. --------------------
Richard Soren	Posted - 2008.08.28 08:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Liang Nuren FFS it just came back up today mate. -Liang[/quote FFS? Don¦t know what you mean, but was on Multi the last two days and had a look on MWD, AB and ship changes....
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:00:00 - [67] Originally by: royal killer How about just increasing a little bit blaster's optimal and falloff ? So that way it can at least do any damage while it ''tries'' to get to the target. If you increase the falloff enough to be workable, they just become ACs with worse damage types, better damage and cap use. It would be either making AC's useless, or making blasters identical. If you increase the optimal enough to be workable, they just become pulse lasers. The weapon types, especially at bs level close range, are moderately balanced for range, actually, and have a nice distinctino where each has its own ability to find a "sweet-spot" agains the other. The problem is tracking, under the new web rules. You have a situation where a one-size smaller ship can out-track a big ship, and get under its guns. This is FINE. However, blasters are an exception. With blasters, the small ships can both /kite/ the blasters, due to their extreme short range, AND out-track them up close, when webbed. This doesn't work for pulses, and thus there's a preferred option. A small ship knows "****ing hell, I need to get under that geddon's guns". On TQ, vs a mega it goes "I dont wanna do that! Stay at range!". On test, it now goes "lol, I can go anywhere I want". The blaster ship should be kited, the pulse or ranged ship, out-tracked. Thus, blasters need a HUGE tracking boost to rectify this, otherwise they become killable by anything. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:40:00 - [68] Blaster boats are taking a big hit. Saying "omg cry more n00b" doesn't make it any less of a nerf. Getting in range,staying in range and hitting something once IN range is pretty much out the window. While I agree there is a lot of un-warranted whining on this forum this really isn't one of those cases. To the people talking about the Ishtar. I understand it was OK tanked before and I will admit that I wasn't playing the game at that point. What I don't understand is why anyone would fly it. Since the speed nerf was announced I have spent a LOT of time on trying to come up with Ishtar fits. I always end up back at the same place....in a Domi. The Domi has more EHP, more slots, is more versatile, can fit a better tank and is a fraction of the cost while being insurable. The Ishtar has better agility/mobility. I think that this will boost the Arazu/Lach. I don't think it will be a boost because of the scram change however. I think that the Arazu/Lach will be good for acting as the tank for recons and hacs that fight out side of 25k. The gal recons can tackle from 40k out and damp the targeting range down that the target won't be able to lock anything down. Not great for gate camping but god for roaming gangs. Great for taking on BS's. Arazu and curse will be a serious pain in the neck.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:19:00 - [69] I fly caldari blaster boats - so I've dealt with a lack of tracking bonus that the mega gets. To be honest, when I'm going against large targets - the motion between ships is usually linear and I'm not hurting on tracking too bad. I don't usually attack small fast ships anyways. My range bonus will help me out though, with targets trying to get away (I use webbing drones in conjunction with a web). Not to give obvious advice - but here's a 'method I've used in hitting people with turrets better. Probably not news to experienced pilots - but for newbies its nice - I figured it out myself after a few months of flying with turret ships lol. - Once you've engaged your target - switch camera view to their ship. - As they orbit or move, rotate your camera so it faces the direction they're pointing in. - Double click right in front of the target ship - this makes your ship point in the same direction as the target ship. If they're orbiting, you're going to have to click a lot, turning your camera and aligning your ship with the orbiting target. - Watch the transversal on your overview drop. - Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds. With a non-tracking bonused Rokh, firing in falloff, I was able to hit an orbiting assault frigate. I think the nerf is going to affect BS blaster boats against smaller targets (BC/HACs) - but probably not much against other BS-sized opponents. That alone is a problem, because currently the remaining advantage of blasters over torps is in hitting smaller targets without damage reducing explosion radius effects. Its just going to mean your gang will need more webs/webbing drones - or support ships offering target painting/tracking enhancing. Better start training for Minnie recons/logistics ships. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:27:00 - [70] Quote: If you increase the falloff enough to be workable, they just become ACs with worse damage types, better damage and cap use. It would be either making AC's useless, or making blasters identical. ... The weapon types, especially at bs level close range, are moderately balanced for range, actually, and have a nice distinctino where each has its own ability to find a "sweet-spot" agains the other. I'm a little curious where the AC "sweet spot" is. Quote: Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds. Not so sure about that math. Perhaps you mean you will more likely get at least some hits in a short amount of time.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:44:00 - [71] Originally by: Boz Well Quote: Don't fire all your guns at once - stagger the shots. You're bound to get more hits over time, versus the on-off switch effect of a full volley every few seconds. Not so sure about that math. Perhaps you mean you will more likely get at least some hits in a short amount of time. What I'm saying is: Target X is orbiting you/flying around you. At times their transversal is high - at other times its lower. If you fire all 8 guns at once - you may miss all 8 if the target is at a high transversal. However if you stagger the shots - fire a gun every second or two. Now some shots may hit the target if their transversal is low. You'll get a few hits over time, versus the one lucky shot effect. Its hard to explain, Ive just had experience in shooting turrets that I tend to hit orbiting targets better if I stagger my shots vs volleys. If I could draw an animation I could make my point better. I've used this in Rail Harpies against Crows, or null-ammo blaster boats against nanos. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:16:00 - [72] Having a long history with blasterboats I propose the following (extremely radical) changes: - Change tanking (armor rep amount) bonus of brutix and hyperion to falloff bonus' ala deimos (drop the hyperion drone bay to 75m3 to balance if necessary) - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x - Keep everything else about them the same Reasons for these radical changes: - Blasters use up the most cap of all weapons (considering the -50% consumption bonus on laser boats) - The ships that fit them are slow and cant fit a sustainable tank while dishing out DPS. - Blasterboats have a very short range and even getting in range is very cap consuming and an absolute death race. With the nano changes sustaining the range will also be a problem. IN THE END: The risk of flying a blasterboat which is hard to tank, hard to get in/sustain range, that is very cap unstable is not worth the marginally small increase in DPS over the other options (pulse boats which hardly need moving or AC boats that are agile deadly mosquitos, not to mention missiles..). So leave the blasterboats as glass cannons but increase the caliber of that cannon to make it a worthwhile trip to the target. Other options will probably tend to turn blasterboats into something that cant tank like Amarr or cant move around like Minmatar. We all know that gallente navy doctrine emphasis on DMG so lets make it clear. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:20:00 - [73] Originally by: Kunming Having a long history with blasterboats I propose the following (extremely radical) changes: - Change tanking (armor rep amount) bonus of brutix and hyperion to falloff bonus' ala deimos (drop the hyperion drone bay to 75m3 to balance if necessary) - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x - Keep everything else about them the same Reasons for these radical changes: - Blasters use up the most cap of all weapons (considering the -50% consumption bonus on laser boats) - The ships that fit them are slow and cant fit a sustainable tank while dishing out DPS. - Blasterboats have a very short range and even getting in range is very cap consuming and an absolute death race. With the nano changes sustaining the range will also be a problem. IN THE END: The risk of flying a blasterboat which is hard to tank, hard to get in/sustain range, that is very cap unstable is not worth the marginally small increase in DPS over the other options (pulse boats which hardly need moving or AC boats that are agile deadly mosquitos, not to mention missiles..). So leave the blasterboats as glass cannons but increase the caliber of that cannon to make it a worthwhile trip to the target. Other options will probably tend to turn blasterboats into something that cant tank like Amarr or cant move around like Minmatar. We all know that gallente navy doctrine emphasis on DMG so lets make it clear.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:25:00 - [74] Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones. Can anyone share their experiences.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 - [75] Originally by: Richard Soren FFS? Don¦t know what you mean, but was on Multi the last two days and had a look on MWD, AB and ship changes.... When I wrote that, they'd made the post that they'd put up multi in my "morning". To me, it had been up since morning. To you, perhaps two days. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [76] Originally by: Birkinz Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones. Can anyone share their experiences. A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor? -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
kyrv	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [77] I get it this threads to put off CCP from nerfing the blasters because megathron dps is imbalanced. It did throw me off for a while
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:42:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Birkinz Has anyone tested double web set ups on the Mega? Seems to me that would hold a BS/BC fine, not sure about the small afterburner ships but it should be enough to hurt them with drones. Can anyone share their experiences. A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor? -Liang A ship should not be forced to fit 2 webs to be useful at all, that points out to a problem. ALSO, my previous post was serious why the smileys I got no idea. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:52:00 - [79] Originally by: Kunming A ship should not be forced to fit 2 webs to be useful at all, that points out to a problem. ALSO, my previous post was serious why the smileys I got no idea. TBH I figure they'll either have to go that route or give blasters 4x the tracking they have now... they're already almost useless in gangs and the web nerf just seals the deal. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:58:00 - [80] "A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?" It would be the cap booster since I dont have one now. I have a cap recharger and it is not essential. If the MWD uses less cap I will still have 5/6 mins firing with 1 blast of the MWD which is enough for me. I use the mega fro ambushing things and have never needed a cap booster + I can fit it with my fit. It may not be ideal but it is what I plan to do if nothing changes before the patch goes live. If all else fails I have caldari BS 5 too.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:25:00 - [81] Edited by: The Djego on 28/08/2008 16:26:19 Originally by: Birkinz "A single web isn't enough to hit a non afterburning cruiser... two probably will be, but I'm curious which module you plan to give up. MWD? Cap booster? Disruptor?" It would be the cap booster since I dont have one now. I have a cap recharger and it is not essential. If the MWD uses less cap I will still have 5/6 mins firing with 1 blast of the MWD which is enough for me. I use the mega fro ambushing things and have never needed a cap booster + I can fit it with my fit. It may not be ideal but it is what I plan to do if nothing changes before the patch goes live. If all else fails I have caldari BS 5 too. 2 Webs work(not realy good but they do the job) against a non AB Cruiser, if the Cruiser has a AB it can still outrun tracking preaty good. Most of the time I go with a Medium Cap Booster since the fight mostly don¦t start at 100% Cap and speed up aligning with the MWD takes quite some cap for traveling. Neuts will not become less common with the changes, they will get more common, so without a Cap Booster, it will be quite hard to survive at the BC\BS level vs Neuts. Quote: - Up the DMG output of blasters by 1.5x or even 2x Increase Damage on blaster ships. Actualy yes(+50-100% will be to mutch for shure), but fixing usability in general(that apeared with the new setting) is far more important in the end. Even if a Blaster Mega would have 2k DPS while beeing unable to hold a Target or hit it properly in his Range it would still not be a good ship, at least in it¦s traditional use, that is defined in small Gang and solo. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 - [82] Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one?
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:42:00 - [83] Originally by: Birkinz Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one? Depends on the range, Puls have less Tracking than Blasters. If the Cruiser gets close enught and don¦t aproche in a straigt line it can avoid getting poped in the beginning(at 10-6km) and move closer to a more or less save orbit at 1500-2000m. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:50:00 - [84] Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 28/08/2008 16:51:27 This is my anti nano mega setup. It is a gang ship as it has no tackle. Worked great for popping nano's and I am hoping it will work fairly well as a mid range ship after the nano nerf. [Megathron, Mid Range] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Brief Capacitor Overcharge I, Cap Booster 800 Prototype I Sensor Booster, Targeting Range Optical Tracking Computer I, Tracking Speed 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Drone Link Augmentor I Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Hybrid Locus Coordinator I [empty rig slot] Ogre II x5 DPS is good (about 800 with antimatter) Not great. I can't use t2 larges so I carry Three differnt types of faction ammo for different ranges. Antimatter, thorium and iron. Buffer is good (Again, not great). The rigs are cheap so cost isn't much of an issue. Can also cause problem for falcons if you are fighting someplace where they don't have bookmarks. They tend to come in 100k off from a gang make which this will reach with iron. Will be even better with spike and T2's. I haven't tested this on sisi yet so as far as how it will work for this patch I can't say for sure. But I would assume that since it could hit a cruiser going 4k it should probably be able to hit just about anything.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:52:00 - [85] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Birkinz Edited by: Birkinz on 28/08/2008 16:29:30 Not hitting a double webbed AB cruiser is a bit of a worry. Is the tracking on a pulse so much better that it will hit a single webbed AB cruiser when a blaster will miss a double webbed one? Depends on the range, Puls have less Tracking than Blasters. If the Cruiser gets close enught and don¦t aproche in a straigt line it can avoid getting poped in the beginning(at 10-6km) and move closer to a more or less save orbit at 1500-2000m. Ya, it's not that pulse track better, it's simply they have a lot more range. While blasters have to make their way up to the target (this will be tougher post patch) and then fight at close range, it's thus more difficult for them to track their enemy, not simply because of their tracking attribute but mainly because of the range they're trying to fight at. This is compounded by the fact that CCP is nerfing webs, making it much more difficult to track at those close ranges. If you get up on a pulse, or AC, battleship, don't expect it to do any better. The difference is that the other two races have the option to fight at distance and still deal nice damage (especially Amarr).
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:27:00 - [86] Edited by: The Djego on 28/08/2008 17:29:54 Originally by: Ignatious Mei Sniperfitting Well it is mostly a Sniper Fitting. Shooting something at 50km is fare more easy as at 5km also Nano Ships suffer of her Sig Radius at this ranges, leading to a good hit chance once the speed don¦t manages to outrun Tracking(putting rad/s in account). If the ship moves closer or tryes to maximize his Trasverial to the sniper, you will hit less till a point where you will miss all the time. Exactly this is the Problem located at Blasters(and other short range Turrets to) that web range don¦t fixes Tracking at very close ranges to a amout that favours the short Range ship because of the still good speed of the target. With the change, Sniping(also Med Range Combat/Out of Web Range) at itself got a boost because of the slower ship speeds. Real short Range Combat got a nerf because of the weaker Web and increased time to get into this ranges. I would also add that a Amarr Ship would outperform the Mega here(by Tracking, Damage and range) what is fair because the ships/weapons are designed to outperform other Turrets at range while having Drawbacks(Tracking) close, making it more of a fleet/gang ship instead of a solo/shortrange ship. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:39:00 - [87] I Dont really consider that fit a sniper fit, more of a mid range fit. But I guess that depends on what you consider a sniper fit. To me sniper fit means able to engage and 150k while being within optimal. Most sniper fits also have next to no buffer. That mega fit is more for engaging in the 20-60k Range.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:01:00 - [88] Well the thread is mostly about blasters and gallente at close range, 50km and rail guns hardly fit into that catagory. Anyways blasters should work efficiently at close range as good as pulse work at its medium range. Pulse will work at its optimal and will start missing once you close in, but with blasters its the case that not only do you have a hard time hitting stuff in your optimal range you will miss all the time when the target is out of the optimal range! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:03:00 - [89] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/08/2008 18:05:26 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/08/2008 18:03:44 Originally by: Terianna Eri It's actually 300% increase, or 400% of original value. And no, he's not exaggerating. Pre-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 30m/s (90% reduction) Post-patch: 300 m/s target gets webbed, goes 120m/s (60% reduction) Speed while webbed is now 4 times faster than it used to be... 4x faster = 400% of origianl value, or 1x value + 3x value, or 100% + 300%, or 300% increase. l2math? Yes, your math is correct. Problem is that your assumptions are generally wrong. And yes, that makes him exaggerate the issue. Why? Because you don't consider that alot of ships will be going slower post patch then pre patch. So 300m/s will generally be less (on some ships the speed changes are extremely large) after patch. The second thing you don't consider is that in alot of cases being webbed will also mean being warp scrambled (ie, your mwd will not work in webrange). That will decrease the general post patch within-web-range-speed to ALOT less then post patch. With that in mind the web nerf is not all that dramatic as some of you like to make people belive. The only real problem has been the missiles on the test server and they are being looked at naturally. Other then that the changes are great and will make way for more strategical encounters. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:06:00 - [90] Could be worse. You could have the tempest as your BS.
Ignatious Mei	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:18:00 - [91] Edited by: Ignatious Mei on 28/08/2008 18:18:42 Originally by: Kunming Well the thread is mostly about blasters and gallente at close range, 50km and rail guns hardly fit into that catagory. Anyways blasters should work efficiently at close range as good as pulse work at its medium range. Pulse will work at its optimal and will start missing once you close in, but with blasters its the case that not only do you have a hard time hitting stuff in your optimal range you will miss all the time when the target is out of the optimal range! True, the thread is about blasters. I was trying to offer a alternative to blasters since they are getting nerfed. After the patch hits I think you will see a LOT less blaster boats. I myself will be using either a rail mega or a Domi.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:32:00 - [92] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer /me cut the 300 m/s thing because it was to long Why? Because you don't consider that alot of ships will be going slower post patch then pre patch. So 300m/s will generally be less (on some ships the speed changes are extremely large) after patch. The second thing you don't consider is that in alot of cases being webbed will also mean being warp scrambled (ie, your mwd will not work in webrange). That will decrease the general post patch within-web-range-speed to ALOT less then post patch. With that in mind the web nerf is not all that dramatic as some of you like to make people belive. The only real problem has been the missiles on the test server and they are being looked at naturally. Other then that the changes are great and will make way for more strategical encounters. Yes ships are slower, but not 3 times slower, leading to increased speed in web Range and make it harder to control Range or avoid Tracking issues. Also MWDing in web range is to control range(or leave Web Range again), it don¦t realy helps to tank because of the Signature Penalty. For example a Thorax vs a Rupture the Distance between 3-6km matters alot, since non Large Blasters can be outranged in Web range preaty easy(loosing 40-50% of the Damage to range is mostly a game over condition for the blaster ship). Even on the BS level the higher range disfavours the Blaster in general more than other Weapons giving other ships/weapons a advantage with the weaker Web, if your MWD is dead and you are 8km away from a Gedon, you simply loose the Damage advantage while the Gedon still maintain his Range advantage and can start hitting long before the Mega can do so(at least for a acceptalt Damage), on equal Skill levels the Gedon will win(also most ships with superior Range and a at least average Tank). Deactivation of the MWD also hurts Blaster ships more than other Ships\Weapons simply because of the reason that the Blaster ship have to be in a specific distance to use his DPS. The ship allready don¦t orbit to not reduce his damage. If you are to close you loose damage to tracking, if you are to fare away you loose Damage to range. With the Web changes in a Blaster ship you have to make the decision if you use range to counter Tracking(Damage loose vs Tracking gain) or go close to couter Damage loose of Range(Damage gain vs Tracking loose) that realy makes it kind of unpredictalbe(even if the pilote makes no mistakes till web Range a simple wrong decision of him or a unpredictable move/fitting of the other ship will screw him easy). Blaster ships don¦t have a superior Tank(if they do so they loose her superior Damage), they don¦t have superior Range all they got is superior Damage(that is not this superior since the EM nerf and the Torp Boost). If they can¦t aplay this superior Damage or can be easy outranged/outtracked in Web Range they simply loosing the point over other ships that can tank better or hit further in the end. I tested a lot with Lasers to, and have to say I didn¦t have problems, the other ship takes longer to close, and you only have to care about tracking not about range in Web range, by this the decision is easy, keep range as long as possilbe and try to outrange a Target close. At the missles I can agree, they need some tweeking under the new system. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:44:00 - [93] so on the matter that blaster boats are gona suck, what race do you think will kick ass after nano nerf patch???
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:53:00 - [94] Originally by: Wardeneo so on the matter that blaster boats are gona suck, what race do you think will kick ass after nano nerf patch??? Amarr will continue to be an excellent race overall, and Caldari will also be in good shape unless CCP really makes drastic missile changes.
Psiri	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:02:00 - [95] I think the idea of nerfing nanos is a healthy one, HOWEVER they should have just crippled the snake implants, polycarbons and faction mods and left the ship stats as they are. That way HAC's would still be able to pick their fights to a large exent but their targets would actually be able to fight back for once. This way nanos would not only become available to more players, due to its vastly reduced costs. But it'd no longer be the sheer invulnerability it is now. Even if someone brings the counters like a minnie recon, large neuts, ECM and warrior II's the nano pilot still has a good chance to get away thanks to how the mechanics in this game work. As for gallente, now their HACs will be about as useful as Caldari's are today, the Domi will still be a great ship but the Mega certainly looses its place as the classic solopwnmobile. But when looking at the minnies I can't say that I feel sorry for you gallente pilots.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.29 07:06:00 - [96] Originally by: Psiri I think the idea of nerfing nanos is a healthy one, HOWEVER they should have just crippled the snake implants, polycarbons and faction mods and left the ship stats as they are. That way HAC's would still be able to pick their fights to a large exent but their targets would actually be able to fight back for once. Nope, youre way off. The reason they nerfed nano across the board is not to kill off the 1 in 10000 HG snaked t2 poly carbed ship. It was to kill off general nanoing of EVERYTHING. CCP did it the right way actually, because the problem was NOT single extreme nano ships breaking eve. The real problem was huge fleets of nano ships that only needed t2 fitting to get enough speed. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 08:41:00 - [97] Edited by: Birkinz on 29/08/2008 08:42:28 Edited by: Birkinz on 29/08/2008 08:41:36 "Ya, it's not that pulse track better, it's simply they have a lot more range. While blasters have to make their way up to the target (this will be tougher post patch) and then fight at close range, it's thus more difficult for them to track their enemy, not simply because of their tracking attribute but mainly because of the range they're trying to fight at. This is compounded by the fact that CCP is nerfing webs, making it much more difficult to track at those close ranges. If you get up on a pulse, or AC, battleship, don't expect it to do any better. The difference is that the other two races have the option to fight at distance and still deal nice damage (especially Amarr)." Good Points, but I think the range thing is overdone. I get over 1K dps off just my blasters so killing a cruiser even deep in falloff is not a problem. A HAC maybe more problematic as I have had them tank me now but I would rather have the chance to hit them even if it is not that much and use drones then watch them orbitting at ludicrous speeds. Presumably a double webbed BC/BS can be hit fine, especially if they only have single web on you? I am not familliar with the Minnie BSs but I didn't think the damage was that amazing in Falloff and Blasters on the mega can hurt even in falloff and defiantely in web range. Amarr and Caldari always have the range advantage so flying straight at them in a gallent BS isnt the best idea unless you are using ECM drones. Which will still work fine. Maybe minnie BS will get the boost they need by being able to fit double web and being faster?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.29 08:59:00 - [98] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/08/2008 08:59:48 I'm an optimist. CCP has been reading the constructive 20-page thread and is going to fix the hole in tracking formula. Do that and blaster-boats tracking woes are gone forever. Then they're going to implement some tweaks to agility/mass to ensure they don't loose too much speed post patch, or are going to boost the damage output to justify the new closing times to target. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:03:00 - [99] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/08/2008 08:59:48 I'm an optimist. CCP has been reading the constructive 20-page thread and is going to fix the hole in tracking formula. Do that and blaster-boats tracking woes are gone forever. Then they're going to implement some tweaks to agility/mass to ensure they don't loose too much speed post patch, or are going to boost the damage output to justify the new closing times to target. What hole? ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:06:00 - [100] This hole - The tracking formula doesn't take this into account at all. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:07:00 - [101] Originally by: Birkinz Good Points, but I think the range thing is overdone. The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. The same problem repeats itself across all classes, if you want a close range ship, you go with missiles or lasers. If you want a long range ship, you go with the Caldari railboats. Which Gallente ship do I actually want to fly? Is it the blaster ships? No, as said above, lasers are far superior in the gank role. Is it the drone boats? No, except the Dominix. Thanks to the Dominix's ability to use everything from frigate to battleship size weapons, all other drone boats are redundant. The Dominix is just one ship, and it doesn't save an entire race. Is it the support ships? Maybe. The Ares is the best interceptor, but interceptors are being nerfed to "who cares which one you fly, just pick the one that looks pretty on your suicide run" status alongside interdictors. The Arazu is decent and getting better with the webscram change. So out of all the Gallente sub-capital ships, we have a staggering three ships that I actually want to see in my fleet: the Arazu, Ares and Dominix.
Kano Sekor Amarr The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:12:00 - [102] Originally by: Gabriel Karade This hole - The tracking formula doesn't take this into account at all. Plx add the hole that tracking shouldnt be an issue for a fast ship orbitting a near stationary ship, since its turrets whouldnt need to move at all (almost). ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:26:00 - [103] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 29/08/2008 09:28:17 Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Gabriel Karade This hole - The tracking formula doesn't take this into account at all. Plx add the hole that tracking shouldnt be an issue for a fast ship orbitting a near stationary ship, since its turrets whouldnt need to move at all (almost). This is very true, and likewise a ship rotating on the spot would be able to match a targets orbit. I imagine the current problem there is (and I'm speculating here) the game models all the turrets as a simple point at the centre of a sphere (the ship), rather than objects on the surface of the sphere. That point can translate along any axis as the sphere does, so that transversal velocities can be modelled, but unlike an object on the surface of the sphere, rotation can't be incorporated. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:36:00 - [104] Merin those are good points and I dont disagree, but the thread was about the gallente being usable after the patch. The problems you list are true now as well as post patch. Its just I believe the mega will still work after the patch because of the option to fit double web. If the damage gets boosted I will be very pleased but I think it would be even better if they increased the size of the drone bay on the Mega and Hype. I think this is more in keeping with the Gallente style and would be extremely useful. I would love to be able to fit heavy ECM drones and some damage drones for example even lights. Although I won't complain if blaster damage gets boosted.
Torskelrak Gallente Captain Y-Wabs Sunday Pirates	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:44:00 - [105] My 2p's worth here haha To me Im not really bothered because it isnt the first time somethings been nerfed and it wont be the last, The shifting of power might once again change, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. All in all im a gallente pilot and i love a nano ishtar but bring back the days of up close and personal!!
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.29 09:53:00 - [106] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. This - all the Megathron pilots who use Null L, for instance - in order to be able to deliver damage without having to be on top of someone - would be better off using AN Multifrequency on a Armageddon up to 20km (or Scorch outside 20km). The only place where a Megathron has any sort of advantage is from 6km or closer, making a Mega inferior in all cases where it doesn't straight out land on top of a single target - and that's right now, on TQ. Minmatar BS don't even have a sweet spot to begin with. De-facto increasing distance (by lowering speeds all around, thanks to the MWD nerf to 500%, which is both not needed and nerfs conventional ships) only makes the existing issue worse, as the Megathron now requires more time to reach its sweet spot - where it will have a 80 DPS advantage. Web nerf in reality only impacts the solo Megathron pilot attacking smaller ships; which does hurt, but doesn't really kill the ship. What kills the ship is its performance in attacking other battleships, where it simply cannot make up for its range disadvantage by a very minor damage increase. A number of Amarr buffs and the Caldari torp buff got us to the point where it simply doesn't make sense (on TQ) to fly a Megathron unless you want a solo BS and even then there are good alternatives. It's totally obsolete for gangs. Being able to easily murder everything smaller while flying a battleship thanks to 90% webs was broken - the only argument people have was 'don't get within 13km range if you're in something smaller', which translates to 'if it isn't a BS, nano it'. Sure, 60% webs might be too weak, but a 75% web would be quite fine imo. You'll still be able to defend and kill that cruiser pilot - short-range HACs might give you some issues. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:02:00 - [107] Are the tanks the same? In the Merin example doesnt the Mega have a lot more armor as it seems to be using Trimarks where the Geddon is using Locus rigs? Doesn't that make a difference?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:06:00 - [108] Originally by: Birkinz Merin those are good points and I dont disagree, but the thread was about the gallente being usable after the patch. The problems you list are true now as well as post patch. Yes, now you realize the fundamental truth here: Gallente already suck. The patch is just making this fact even clearer, to the point that even the most dedicated Gallente players can't deny it. Quote: Its just I believe the mega will still work after the patch because of the option to fit double web. A double 60% web is worse than a single 90% web. If the Megathron can't out-perform the Armageddon with the 90% web, how is it going to do better with a weaker web? Quote: For me, Amarr and Caldari should be better in fleet/gang situations and I think the Minnie BSs will be better post patch too due to being faster, fitting some missiles and being able to put on double webs. Minmatar battleships are in the same situation. The only differnce is they have less range AND less dps. That speed advantage is only really going to be useful for fighting Gallente ships, just to add insult to injury. Quote: Edit: looking again at your post, perhaps they should just boost Null? Slightly shorter range but more damage then scorch? Honestly, I have no idea. Blasters are just so fundamentally broken right now, I doubt it's that simple a fix. Quote: Edit: Merin, what will you do about AB cruisers in the Geddon? Blow them up at 60km, and put 5x Ogre IIs on them if they get close. AB cruisers are nowhere near fast enough to out-track an Armageddon at the range it's supposed to fight at. And besides, that's what anti-support ships are for, to protect the battleships from things like that.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:07:00 - [109] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/08/2008 10:08:11 Originally by: Birkinz Are the tanks the same? In the Merin example doesnt the Mega have a lot more armor as it seems to be using Trimarks where the Geddon is using Locus rigs? Doesn't that make a difference? There's somewhat of a tank differnce, about 90k EHP to 60k EHP, due to a combination of rig differences and comparing a tier 1 ship to a tier 2 ship (the tier difference is why I didn't compare it to the Abbadon, that's just overkill). But since offense is fundamentally better than defense, it's a trade I'm more than willing to make. The Mega will burn all of that armor advantage just trying to get into range, so it's not really too helpful.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:12:00 - [110] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Merin Ryskin The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. This - all the Megathron pilots who use Null L, for instance - in order to be able to deliver damage without having to be on top of someone - would be better off using AN Multifrequency on a Armageddon up to 20km (or Scorch outside 20km). The only place where a Megathron has any sort of advantage is from 6km or closer, making a Mega inferior in all cases where it doesn't straight out land on top of a single target - and that's right now, on TQ. Minmatar BS don't even have a sweet spot to begin with. De-facto increasing distance (by lowering speeds all around, thanks to the MWD nerf to 500%, which is both not needed and nerfs conventional ships) only makes the existing issue worse, as the Megathron now requires more time to reach its sweet spot - where it will have a 80 DPS advantage. Web nerf in reality only impacts the solo Megathron pilot attacking smaller ships; which does hurt, but doesn't really kill the ship. What kills the ship is its performance in attacking other battleships, where it simply cannot make up for its range disadvantage by a very minor damage increase. A number of Amarr buffs and the Caldari torp buff got us to the point where it simply doesn't make sense (on TQ) to fly a Megathron unless you want a solo BS and even then there are good alternatives. It's totally obsolete for gangs. Being able to easily murder everything smaller while flying a battleship thanks to 90% webs was broken - the only argument people have was 'don't get within 13km range if you're in something smaller', which translates to 'if it isn't a BS, nano it'. Sure, 60% webs might be too weak, but a 75% web would be quite fine imo. You'll still be able to defend and kill that cruiser pilot - short-range HACs might give you some issues. Well they are still using 60% on multiplicity, not sure if that is now a 'hard' number for webs or if that's flexible for change. I would still like to see them playing around with the tracking formula, the ideas in the blaster thread for modifying sig radius would have overall meant a big increase in hitting Battleships up close (virtually 100% hits as it should be - you're attacking a km-sized target), a bit of decrease in damage to cruisers up close compared to TQ, but not the Sisi cruiser invulnerability (you're still firing at an aircraft carrier sized target afterall), and virtually no damage to frigates unless multi-webbed and multi-painted. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:16:00 - [111] "A double 60% web is worse than a single 90% web. If the Megathron can't out-perform the Armageddon with the 90% web, how is it going to do better with a weaker web?" I meant against smaller ships. Your fits rely on Ogre IIS which make them vulnerable to ECM fits on a 1V1. You may not fight in these situations but I do making the mega a better choice as long as I can kill cruisers with double webs or a web + tracking enhancer. If it turns out that I cant well then that will be an issue. That EHP difference is pretty big merin, 60K to 90K is much bigger then the difference in damage at range. In a gang the Geddon out performs, but I would argue the mega is better since it can have the big tank and the damage as well as selscting damage type. Does it make the geddon obsolete?
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:18:00 - [112] Edited by: Birkinz on 29/08/2008 10:19:08 "I would still like to see them playing around with the tracking formula, the ideas in the blaster thread for modifying sig radius would have overall meant a big increase in hitting Battleships up close (virtually 100% hits as it should be - you're attacking a km-sized target), a bit of decrease in damage to cruisers up close compared to TQ, but not the Sisi cruiser invulnerability (you're still firing at an aircraft carrier sized target afterall), and virtually no damage to frigates unless multi-webbed and multi-painted." I would like to see this happen. It sounds right.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:22:00 - [113] Allso Merin, on your geddon do you have a speed mod or a cap booster, I am assuming speed mod due to the rigs?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:39:00 - [114] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2008 10:39:53 A trimarked geddon outperforms it. EHP is roughly the same, it has a serious damage at range advantage (and range advantage in general) and is only disadvantaged in the 6km bracket damage-wise. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:40:00 - [115] Edited by: Birkinz on 29/08/2008 10:40:35 Fair enough, I thought that does it have cap problems? or do you go for a cap booster instead of a speed mod? or is it fine? I dont fly geddons so I am not sure.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 10:45:00 - [116] I seem to be having trouble fitting the geddon due to CPU shortage? Any advice?
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 11:06:00 - [117] Edited by: Birkinz on 29/08/2008 11:06:49 With a co-pro in 1 of the lows I can fit a nice set up on the geddon. And I see what people mean about the range. The only advantage seems to be if you can leverage the extra mid with a web or a tracking enhancer etc. Not sure if I would like the Geddon solo post patch though. Wouldn't fly one in a bigger gang, but then that was always the case.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.29 11:12:00 - [118] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Birkinz Good Points, but I think the range thing is overdone. The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.29 11:17:00 - [119] Back on topic, did we discuss tracking enhancer in the mid. does this do enough to hit a single webbed AB cruiser? and what about target painters?
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic	Posted - 2008.08.29 12:49:00 - [120] Edited by: royal killer on 29/08/2008 12:50:47 Originally by: El Yatta Originally by: royal killer How about just increasing a little bit blaster's optimal and falloff ? So that way it can at least do any damage while it ''tries'' to get to the target. If you increase the falloff enough to be workable, they just become ACs with worse damage types, better damage and cap use. It would be either making AC's useless, or making blasters identical. If you increase the optimal enough to be workable, they just become pulse lasers. The weapon types, especially at bs level close range, are moderately balanced for range, actually, and have a nice distinctino where each has its own ability to find a "sweet-spot" agains the other. The problem is tracking, under the new web rules. You have a situation where a one-size smaller ship can out-track a big ship, and get under its guns. This is FINE. However, blasters are an exception. With blasters, the small ships can both /kite/ the blasters, due to their extreme short range, AND out-track them up close, when webbed. This doesn't work for pulses, and thus there's a preferred option. A small ship knows "****ing hell, I need to get under that geddon's guns". On TQ, vs a mega it goes "I dont wanna do that! Stay at range!". On test, it now goes "lol, I can go anywhere I want". The blaster ship should be kited, the pulse or ranged ship, out-tracked. Thus, blasters need a HUGE tracking boost to rectify this, otherwise they become killable by anything. Well, I didn't mean no 50 km range with Null L like with Scorch L Maybe like 20 km's tops. Edit: Even I think that's a little bit too much, but you get my point. --------------------
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.08.29 15:50:00 - [121] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Birkinz Good Points, but I think the range thing is overdone. The range problem is not just "can Gallente hit at range X?", it's "why should I fly Gallente instead of Amarr?". The simple fact is you shouldn't. The damage gap between blasters (and ACs) and pulse lasers is just too small. Compare the ships: Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/CNAM: 1250 dps @ 5km optimal, 13k falloff Megathron, trimark/plate + neutrons/Null: 1050 dps @ 10km optimal, 16k falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, ANMF: 1170 dps @ 20km optimal, 10km falloff Armageddon, pulse/locus, Scorch: 1000 dps @ 61km optimal, 10km falloff So for a staggering 80 dps difference, the Megathron gets 25% of the Armageddon's optimal with high damage ammo, and a pathetic 16% with long-range ammo. Tracking doesn't redeem the Megathron, the Amageddon hits just fine at anything over 10km. And it only gets worse once you consider travel time, at anything over point blank range, the Armageddon will be putting damage on target while the Megathron is still trying to get into range. And once it gets there, few targets are going to survive long enough for the Megathron's small damage advantage to catch up. Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Locus rigs are a waste of time on a blaster ship - but they might give a large tactical advantage on a midrange weapon class like lasers. Back in the day I'd make the argument that lasers had a tougher time against armor resists - however those days are long gone, and hybrids no longer have any significant advantage over lasers. Compare top tier BS - Abbaddon vs Hyperion - the disparity only gets worse due to the advantage of a resist bonus vs an active rep bonus. I can't comment much more, i fly Rokh's so my range issue isn't as bad - however my dps issue still stands! __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:05:00 - [122] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Locus rigs are a waste of time on a blaster ship - but they might give a large tactical advantage on a midrange weapon class like lasers. Back in the day I'd make the argument that lasers had a tougher time against armor resists - however those days are long gone, and hybrids no longer have any significant advantage over lasers. Compare top tier BS - Abbaddon vs Hyperion - the disparity only gets worse due to the advantage of a resist bonus vs an active rep bonus. I can't comment much more, i fly Rokh's so my range issue isn't as bad - however my dps issue still stands! Yes, we know passive tanking is good in large scale pvp and active tanking does well in solo and smaller gangs where incoming damage is less. Maybe you should have thought about that before picking a race with active tanking bonus if all you wanted to do is passive tank in massive slugfests. Also my point above was that he was manipulating fittings and fitting the geddon in a way no one fits it just to prove a point. A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. Oh and lets not forget that the geddon has 3 mids wich is a huge downside in todays pvp. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:19:00 - [123] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. So you admit that Amarr BS's are overpowered and need a nerf? -Liang Fakeedit: I'd prefer to see a blaster and projectile boost, but tbh, Amarr/Caldari BS's are so far out there ... -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
NeoTheo Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:20:00 - [124] basically against enemys of the same size the issues should be minimal. but this effectivly nerfs blasterships when firing on smaller faster targets, whilst thats actaully not bad if it was a general change, its not, cause nothing is getting stiffed like blasters are getting stiffed. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:11:00 - [125] Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:13:59 Those numbers for the geddon are plain wrong. Please try to actually fit the ship or number the amount of ridiculous expensive faction mods and implants you use. A 3 locus rig geddon cannot even fit a full rack of mega pulse lasers without a fitting implant. Much less things like injectors or mwd. So you gotta downgrade some of the guns to dhp which sets your effective range at about 53km (2xlocus rig). You are also not doing 1000dps at that range not even if you wait for your ogres to travel the whole distance(LOL). (more like 880 with t2 wardens) At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Such a geddon (i did 2 x locus, 1 x trimark) would have less ehp than the megathron (absolutely exceptional situation for this ship but you conveniently don't mention it). Now, i am not going to say blaster ships don't have issues because they do. And the next patch is going to make it really hurt. But how about we concentrate on making blaster ships better where they lack instead of talking about nerfing ships that work perfectly fine this year (i.e. amarr). If it becomes apparent that laser are overpowered under the new game mechanics then they need to be looked at and get rebalanced. But this should only happen: 1) after we the effects of the nerf have been explored on TQ 2) after possibilities to make blaster ships more viable via buffs have been explored 3) after a thorough and honest look at the amarr ships (not like the wrong numbers spouted by some people here) And a last thought: i think lyria is kind of spot when she tells you not to expect your blasterthron to work as good in larger gangs than a geddon. Amarr ships are made for larger gangs and fleet engagements where they can use their big buffer tanks and awesome range. But don't forget that is virtually the only thing they can do good. Break it or make it so everyone can do this and there will (again) be no reason to fly amarr at all. Active tanking certainly needs a look at and the way it is now even in a gang size of only 5 people an amarr bs will often outperform blaster ships. This is in my opinion the real issue. If you want resistance bonuses and scorch then please train amarr. Making blasters into mini lasers with pseudo scorch will only make the game boring in the long run. my 2 cents
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Myra2007 At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Just for starters: It's completely bullshit that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS from a gankthron, yet still easily gets a 45km optimal. Quote: If it becomes apparent that laser are overpowered under the new game mechanics then they need to be looked at and get rebalanced. Lasers are currently overpowered on TQ in regards to both blasters and projectiles. Only Rails have anything approaching parity, and they don't approach parity very well. Quote: But this should only happen: 1) after we the effects of the nerf have been explored on TQ No, I refuse to allow you to have a year of WTF-Overpoweredness while we "explore" how WTF broken laser boats are next to all other turret ships. Quote: 2) after possibilities to make blaster ships more viable via buffs have been explored You have to be careful about continuous boosts. As things stand with regards to the nerf, missiles are the only thing that even stand reasonably well in comparison to lasers... and they're being "looked at" for being stupidly overpowered. Quote: 3) after a thorough and honest look at the amarr ships (not like the wrong numbers spouted by some people here) A thorough and honest look at blasters (on TQ right now) yields that there's no real reason to use them in a gang size of over 2. Once the nano nerf hits, a thorough and honest look at blasters yields that there's no reason to use them in a gang size over 0. A thorough and honest look at projectiles (both AC's and artillery) yields that the only time they really avail you much is if you've got a double damage bonus AND you're constantly under the effect of 20 heavy neuts. They're freaking CAPLESS!!! With this in mind, how can you not see that lasers are blindly overpowered next to the other turret ships. You remember 2 years ago when everyone was comparing every ship to the Megathron? The same thing is happening to Amarr now. There's a reason. Quote: And a last thought: i think lyria is kind of spot when she tells you not to expect your blasterthron to work as good in larger gangs than a geddon. Amarr ships are made for larger gangs and fleet engagements where they can use their big buffer tanks and awesome range. But don't forget that is virtually the only thing they can do good. Break it or make it so everyone can do this and there will (again) be no reason to fly amarr at all. And on the flip side, if you make it so that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS over a gankthron, there's no reason at all to fly Gallente. Make it so that a Geddon deals more DPS at every conceivable range than a Tempest and there's no reason to fly Minnie. Hmm, I'm starting to see a pattern. Quote: If you want resistance bonuses and scorch then please train amarr. Making blasters into mini lasers with pseudo scorch will only make the game boring in the long run. THIS I can agree with. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.29 17:45:00 - [127] Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:52:55 Edited by: Myra2007 on 29/08/2008 17:45:18 Originally by: Liang Nuren Just for starters: It's completely bullshit that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS from a gankthron, yet still easily gets a 45km optimal. That may be your opinion but doesn't make wrong numbers right. (the numbers my post referred to ofc) Originally by: Liang Nuren No, I refuse to allow you to have a year of WTF-Overpoweredness while we "explore" how WTF broken laser boats are next to all other turret ships. Yes, you'd rather overboost blasters now and then care about amarr in 1-2 years. We can play that game all day long. I don't see what sense it makes because these things do not lie in our hands. Originally by: Liang Nuren You have to be careful about continuous boosts. As things stand with regards to the nerf, missiles are the only thing that even stand reasonably well in comparison to lasers... and they're being "looked at" for being stupidly overpowered. You are right about boosting as far as a balancing measure goes. But continuous boosts as in what? Blasters haven't been boosted lately afaik. Originally by: Liang Nuren A thorough and honest look at blasters (on TQ right now) yields that there's no real reason to use them in a gang size of over 2. Once the nano nerf hits, a thorough and honest look at blasters yields that there's no reason to use them in a gang size over 0. And you're gonna fix this how by nerfing lasers? Originally by: Liang Nuren A thorough and honest look at projectiles (both AC's and artillery) yields that the only time they really avail you much is if you've got a double damage bonus AND you're constantly under the effect of 20 heavy neuts. They're freaking CAPLESS!!! Dude, i didn't even touch that issue. How about you actually adress my post and not yell at me for no reason? Originally by: Liang Nuren With this in mind, how can you not see that lasers are blindly overpowered next to the other turret ships. You remember 2 years ago when everyone was comparing every ship to the Megathron? The same thing is happening to Amarr now. There's a reason. So, the megathron was overpowered 2 years ago? Oh wait i very well remember that time and it wasn't. Originally by: Liang Nuren And on the flip side, if you make it so that a Geddon only gives up 100 DPS over a gankthron, there's no reason at all to fly Gallente. Make it so that a Geddon deals more DPS at every conceivable range than a Tempest and there's no reason to fly Minnie. Liang, i respect your opinion but with you its always the same. You purposely delete all the parts where i explicitly stated how blaster ships suffer (even more with the new patch), you twist my words, draw things into the discussion i never mentioned and make assumptions on what i think about those. This is not a way to have a productive discussion. I didn't say a geddon should only do 100-200dps less than a megathron. I was stating that it did. Because wrong numbers have been posted here. But you don't care about that as long as these wrong numbers support your argument. If i was spouting the same eft bullshit in one of your pest threads you guys would be all over me. But if its about nerfing lasers then hey lets just don't check if those numbers are really ok. I know you are big in propaganda and rethorics and often you use that for a good reason. This was one of your more disappointing posts. Anyway, i know what my opinion is and my posting records accounts for that. Try to make me look like a torch and pitchfork swinging blaster-antichrist but that doesn't make it so. Edit: Oh and no in no way have the ways to boost blasters already been explored. "Blasters are bad. NERF LASERS." Thats about as far as people go.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.08.29 18:04:00 - [128] yay 5 months of training large blaster spec and gallente battleship to max levels down the toilet. Enjoy the free cash ccp because now I'll be training Amarr battleships. Brill marketing plan really. CCP realize that if people enjoy the game enough and wish to be competitive they will just train whatever is currently "the best" hence people will extend their subscriptions. [/url]
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.29 18:31:00 - [129] Originally by: Myra2007 That may be your opinion but doesn't make wrong numbers right. (the numbers my post referred to ofc) Yes, my opinion is that it's ludicrous for a Geddon to do 100 less DPS and have a 45km optimal. Quote: Yes, you'd rather overboost blasters now and then care about amarr in 1-2 years. We can play that game all day long. I don't see what sense it makes because these things do not lie in our hands. It's hard to say. I do know that right now on TQ lasers are blindingly better than every other turret platform. Also, giving blasters a 4x tracking increase (which would never happen) wouldn't "overboost" them because they're already being hammered by mass/acceleration changes. Couple this with an already low engagement arena, and they're still not really useful in most situations. Quote: You are right about boosting as far as a balancing measure goes. But continuous boosts as in what? Blasters haven't been boosted lately afaik. I was referring to this phenomenon: - Boost lasers (now they're better than everything else) - Boost blasters (now they compete with lasers) - Boost projectiles (now they're more powerful than lasers) - Boost blasters (now they compete with projectiles) - Boost lasers (now they're way better than missiles) - Boost missiles ... - Now cruisers/BC's are pointless to fly, boost - Now battleships are pointless to fly, boost Quote: And you're gonna fix this how by nerfing lasers? The current standout is lasers. On Multiplicity, it's missiles and lasers... and missiles are getting nerfed. It's far easier to remove the standout than to boost everyone else. And I'm not foolish enough to think we're going to avoid a ridiculous nano nerf that breaks all aspects of the game. Quote: So, the megathron was overpowered 2 years ago? Oh wait i very well remember that time and it wasn't. No, but it was perceived to be (and eventually everyone got boosted beyond it's perceived value 2 years ago). Hence it has been "continuously boosted" into oblivion. Quote: You purposely delete all the parts where i explicitly stated how blaster ships suffer (even more with the new patch) I didn't disagree with those parts, and thus they weren't really worth the space in the post. If you'd like me to post +1, <<reason>>, and -1 <<reason>> there really isn't enough space in the posts. Quote: you twist my words, draw things into the discussion i never mentioned and make assumptions on what i think about those. This is not a way to have a productive discussion. I didn't twist your words, and I drew things into the conversation to make a point: lasers aren't just better than blasters. They're better than everything. Quote: I didn't say a geddon should only do 100-200dps less than a megathron. I was stating that it did. If a geddon shouldn't do 100-200 DPS less than a gankthron you either think the gankthron should be boosted (and then projectiles and then missiles and then lasers and then and then and then) or you think lasers should be nerfed. Quote: I know you are big in propaganda and rethorics and often you use that for a good reason. This was one of your more disappointing posts. Anyway, i know what my opinion is and my posting records accounts for that. Try to make me look like a torch and pitchfork swinging blaster-antichrist but that doesn't make it so. It's only disappointing because you want to focus on blasters being boosted. The game isn't as simple as that, and the big picture shows that it isn't just blasters that are feeling the pain (though they will feel it the most post patch). The big picture says that we need to at least consider nerfing lasers. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 06:50:00 - [130] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 30/08/2008 06:51:38 Originally by: Myra2007 A 3 locus rig geddon cannot even fit a full rack of mega pulse lasers without a fitting implant. Much less things like injectors or mwd. So you gotta downgrade some of the guns to dhp which sets your effective range at about 53km (2xlocus rig). Two locus rigs and one trimark, actually (due to that grid problem). It's an AWU V setup, granted, but even with those downgrades it still trashes the Megathron. Quote: You are also not doing 1000dps at that range not even if you wait for your ogres to travel the whole distance(LOL). (more like 880 with t2 wardens) Sure, drone travel time is a pain, but at any range where drone travel is a factor the Megathron is doing ZERO damage. But swap them for sentry drones if you like, you'll lose a bit of damage, but you'll still be far better than the Megathron. Quote: At close range you are doing a good 100dps less than the megathron.(200dps less if you insist to do more than your gun dmg at 50km and use wardens) Wow, a staggering 100 dps less. That really makes up for the Megathron having less than 25% of the range. Have you stopped to think how long it takes for a Megathron's 100 dps advantage (even 200 dps!) to catch up to the damage the Armageddon will be putting on the target while the Megathron is still trying desperately to get into range? Quote: Such a geddon (i did 2 x locus, 1 x trimark) would have less ehp than the megathron (absolutely exceptional situation for this ship but you conveniently don't mention it). Who cares if it has less EHP, the Megathron's EHP "advantage" just gets used up trying to get into range. And actually I did mention it, with the same comment about how irrelevant it is. Quote: Now, i am not going to say blaster ships don't have issues because they do. And the next patch is going to make it really hurt. But how about we concentrate on making blaster ships better where they lack instead of talking about nerfing ships that work perfectly fine this year (i.e. amarr). Notice I didn't say "nerf Amarr", that would be a bad idea. I'm just pointing out how poor blaster ships are at the moment and whow desperately they need a boost. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Are you serious? Your whole comparison is total bogus. Who the heck fits locus rigs on a geddon? Youre trying to shoe horn a ship into something it isnt made for just to prove a point you dont have. If youre going to compare ships, atleast fit them like people fit them and not eft fantasy fits. Lol. Really, that's all the reply you deserve. If you can't see why locus rigs are so powerful with pulse lasers, you really don't have a clue how PvP works.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:06:00 - [131] Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:11:51 Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:08:03 The Blasters will have to be looked at. Damage may well need to be increased but the thing that is toubleing me is that without using any e-war like tracking disruptors a double webbed thorax can stil happily solo its big brother the Mega if what I hear from the test server is right. All this arguing about Mega versus Geddon is also fairly accademic unless they sort this out as the Geddon cant even fit two webs and will be in an even worse position if it gets tackled by cruiser up close. Ogre IIs can be killed pretty quick by a thorax and this is just tech 1 cruisers. Edit: I still want to know what the effect of a TP or tracking link in the extra mid is like on the mega when shooting at a webbed cruiser? so if anyone has tried please post. So they need to boost the tacking on blasters first to again make the mega King of point blank combat and then if they want to buff the damage that would be great too.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:16:00 - [132] Originally by: Birkinz All this arguing about Mega versus Geddon is also fairly accademic unless they sort this out as the Geddon cant even fit two webs and will be in an even worse position if it gets tackled by cruiser up close. Why bother with webs when you can gank the target with 900+ dps from outside web range (past 60km!)? And who cares about tackling cruisers up close, that's what your support ships are for. Solo battleships are a request for a Darwin award, so who cares if you can't deal with every possible target yourself. Your job is to put overwhelming dps on the primary, and the Armageddon does this much better than the Megathron. Quote: Ogre IIs can be killed pretty quick by a thorax and this is just tech 1 cruisers. So your Thorax wastes time killing Ogre IIs, and contributes essentially nothing to the fight while your support Drake blows it up. Quote: So they need to boost the tacking on blasters first to again make the mega King of point blank combat and then if they want to buff the damage that would be great too. Tracking won't be enough, a damage increase is necessary. Even with 100% flawless tracking, blaster ships will still suck, since the choice of "1100 dps @ 10km or less" or "1000 dps @ 60km or less" is an incredibly obvious one. The massive range problems with blasters are a massive liability, to make up for it they have to deal MASSIVE damage once they do get into range.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:28:00 - [133] Edited by: Birkinz on 30/08/2008 07:30:21 Merin, if you are attacking something at a gate it wont be at 60KM. Solo battleships or very small gang battleships are not a request for a Darwin award and I will love to see your face when your Geddon gets killed by a caracal. Yuo constantly argue stupid points, your fit has its uses but would lose horribly to a decent Mega in the range that I fight in and I wouldn't simply MWD towards you accross 60km. Not everyone fights in the same way in EVE and your narrow idea of how PVP works is just wrong. If BSs are no longer to be able to fight smaller targets then fine. I personally think you should be able to hit a double webbed crusier with a bs sized weapon that is all and as you have pointed out why fly the Mega if you cant do this? what is the pont of better tracking guns and a tracking bonus? I have no problem with not being able to hit frig sized targets but cruisers is an issue. Edit: WIll you please compare like wit hlike. It has been mentioned several times that yuor numbers are just wrong. A Mega up close using Ogres does more damage then you state and the Geddon at 60 does less. You then completely ignore the fact that the Geddon will have 30K less armour which is a lot. It may well suit your situation, but it does not > all.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:46:00 - [134] Originally by: Birkinz Merin, if you are attacking something at a gate it wont be at 60KM. Learn to fly your ships properly, 60km range on a gate is easy to get. And you don't really need 60km anyway, at anything over 10km the Armageddon completely dominates the Megathron. Even a 20km starting range is enough to make the Megathron worthless. Quote: Solo battleships or very small gang battleships are not a request for a Darwin award Solo =/= small gang. Small gang battleships can have proper support. And yes, it is a Darwin award offense. With a battleship's slow speed and tracking issues it's just a question of WHEN you will lose it, not if. Quote: and I will love to see your face when your Geddon gets killed by a caracal. Never going to happen, since the only way I'm flying a battleship is with support ships. And even un-supported, a Caracal will die to drones/guns unless it STARTS below 10km. Quote: Yuo constantly argue stupid points, your fit has its uses but would lose horribly to a decent Mega in the range that I fight in and I wouldn't simply MWD towards you accross 60km. Remember the part about support? You can either MWD towards me from 60km while my interceptor tackles you, or you can sit there and die without even trying. It's your call. And remember the part where the Megathron's fatal problem is GETTING to that ideal range? Your slight advantage inside 10km doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be in structure before you even get into blaster range. Quote: I personally think you should be able to hit a double webbed crusier with a bs sized weapon that is all and as you have pointed out why fly the Mega if you cant do this? what is the pont of better tracking guns and a tracking bonus? Try flying something other than Gallente. That Armageddon will hit cruisers just fine outside of the 10km blind spot. And hey, looks like you just figured out the obvious: the Megathron sucks and should never be flown. Quote: Edit: WIll you please compare like wit hlike. It has been mentioned several times that yuor numbers are just wrong. A Mega up close using Ogres does more damage then you state and the Geddon at 60 does less. You then completely ignore the fact that the Geddon will have 30K less armour which is a lot. It may well suit your situation, but it does not > all. The numbers I quoted are for a Neutron II Megathron with 3x Magstab IIs using both CNAM and Null, flown by an all-V pilot. My numbers are 100% correct. The fact that you don't like the Megathron's laughable damage "advantage" doesn't make it any bigger. And who cares about that 30k armor, you'll burn it all on the approach to GET into blaster range. By the time you become relevant in the fight, your "advantage" is gone.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:05:00 - [135] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Lol. Really, that's all the reply you deserve. If you can't see why locus rigs are so powerful with pulse lasers, you really don't have a clue how PvP works. Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A weak point that wouldnt be proven without such manipulation. So you admit that Amarr BS's are overpowered and need a nerf? -Liang Fakeedit: I'd prefer to see a blaster and projectile boost, but tbh, Amarr/Caldari BS's are so far out there ... Either you didnt read my reply or you are making strange leaps in logic no one else follows. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:10:00 - [137] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. Fine, then how about put your amazing Amarr experience to work and tell me exactly what rigs go on an Armageddon? Tank rigs? Yeah right, your tank sucks anyway. Damage rigs? Stacking nerfed and high calibration. Grid/cap rigs? You have plenty of it. I guess maybe you're supposed to fit polycarbons, since everyone knows polycarbons are a win button?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:13:00 - [138] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Haha, lets see Merin the noob that doesnt have a clue about flying amarr ships is teaching me how to fit an amarr BS. You are the friggin noob, no one fits locus rigs on a geddon! If you are out for range you will use the apoc + locus rigs and get ALOT more out of the rigs. L2P, mkay ? And stop making stuff up that isnt true. Fine, then how about put your amazing Amarr experience to work and tell me exactly what rigs go on an Armageddon? Tank rigs? Yeah right, your tank sucks anyway. Damage rigs? Stacking nerfed and high calibration. Grid/cap rigs? You have plenty of it. I guess maybe you're supposed to fit polycarbons, since everyone knows polycarbons are a win button? Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.30 09:23:00 - [139] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. Fine, that's your personal choice. I'd use an Abbadon if I wanted a buffer tank, but if you like your HP, nobody's stopping you from flying it. But this isn't some clear case of "lol, locus rigs suck". The extra HP from two more trimarks is only about 15k, which I don't consider a fair trade for losing ~25% of my range. And single rep tank? That's going to be an awesome comedy killmail...
Jonna Andromedae	Posted - 2008.08.30 10:15:00 - [140] I'll bet liang gets massive orgasm always when she starts typing a long reply.
Boobiencia Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.30 11:42:00 - [141] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Geddons are generally rigged with trimarks because geddon can have an excellent buffer tank or buffer + single rep tank. True story. Fine, that's your personal choice. I'd use an Abbadon if I wanted a buffer tank, but if you like your HP, nobody's stopping you from flying it. But this isn't some clear case of "lol, locus rigs suck". The extra HP from two more trimarks is only about 15k, which I don't consider a fair trade for losing ~25% of my range. And single rep tank? That's going to be an awesome comedy killmail... lol? wts: sence & logic Sig removed, inappropriate content. Signature graphics may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to EVE Online. All content must be in good taste ~Saint
ShadowlordUK Portal Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:06:00 - [142] Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:14:34 1) Large Blasters will still be able to hit battleships and battle cruisers just fine after the patch. This is proportional to every other large weapon system, not the same and not in identical ways, but the ability of the mega to hit a small ship is roughly proportional, or better then any other large weapon system using ship. Of all the weapon systems, lasers in fact are the worst for hitting small ships at close range. Somebody else can provide the tracking figures for the thread if they like. 2) Anybody trying to get a boost for blasters loves to complain about range. The usefull range for gate warfare is between 10 and 30km, this puts it at perfect range for mega pulse AND neutron blasters with null ammo. Proof? 100's of kills with corp mates in megathrons that didn't even need to move the whole fight. Naturally if you do choose to fit a mwd and you do use close range ammo, everybody knows that megathrons can do ridiculous dmg. But i'd hardly count that as a downside. 3) You cant just compare one module, you have to consider the ship as a whole. Eve is balanced on a total weapon system basis. This should be obvious to anybody with even the smallest bit of common sense. The argument that the geddon as a whole should be a weaker ship then the mega because it is only a tier one has faded into insignificance due to rise in average wealth of the player base so lets set that to one side for now. In a straight comparison between the two ships, they can both hit out at 20km, the geddon can hit at the top end of the useful range being 30km, true, but then it cant hit anything orbiting it at extreme close range. Personally I've always found the dmg reduction to 0 dps at close range a more pressing issue then 0 dps at >20km because you tend to die a lot when scrambled . In terms of fittings both ships are tough to fit but I would say that the geddon is harder to fit. You have to leave a mid/low slot empty on a geddon, or fit an almost useless mod for a large number of the most effective setups. (Note: not ALL setups but a lot of them). I've never been an eft warrior but im pretty certain the mega has more base hp and compares favourably in terms of sensor strength, range and drone bay. The mega has one less low slot, true, but most people would consider the extra mid slot far more valuable then the low. So in this respect the Mega also compares favourably. Now, in my opinion it seems obvious that the ability to use Null ammo completely tips the mega into being a superiour bs overall compared to the geddon. But lets be cautious and simply admit that at the very least it isn't underpowered. In most short range fights the mega doesnt actually have to move anywhere to get into range and in long range fights, well i'd hope you would be using rails so thats kind of irrelevant. Let the attempted flames begin.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:21:00 - [143] A Neutron Megathron with Null L is a poor substitute for an Armageddon, why? Because Null L does 44 damage, compared to 55.2 on a faction multifrequency L crystal. No my friend... a Megathron has to be inside 5km to be operating at 100% capability. You can kite it by staying outside that range, but getting under the guns in a cruiser hull (as happens on Sisi) means you have one very vulnerable platform, with (virtually) no advantages over true medium range weapons. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, 1-2km, blasters still loose significant damage against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
ShadowlordUK Portal Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:35:00 - [144] Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:38:04 Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Neutron Megathron with Null L is a poor substitute for an Armageddon, why? Because Null L does 44 damage, compared to 55.2 on a faction multifrequency L crystal. No my friend... a Megathron has to be inside 5km to be operating at 100% capability. You can kite it by staying outside that range, but getting under the guns in a cruiser hull (as happens on Sisi) means you have one very vulnerable platform, with (virtually) no advantages over true medium range weapons. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, 1-2km, blasters still loose significant damage against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. I almost opened up eft to check the difference in damages, but ill leave that up to somebody who cares more. What you are saying is the Mega has reasonable dmg using null but only has wtfbbq dmg at very close range. Overall I'd say that the reduction in dmg using null is more then compensated by the extra mid and other advantages previously detailed. You mention cruisers getting under the mega's guns as if that was somehow an exclusive problem. Take a look at the geddon with megapulse and tell me what range /speed the cruisers have to be flying at to completely get under the guns? If its easier to track with mega pulse ill eat somebody else's hat. Vulnerable weapon platform? Ok.... More vulnerable then the geddon at the same extreme close range? Nope. P.S play around with the tracking guide and you can see that with the new webs, at very close ranges, mega pulse still loose significantly more damage then blasters against even Battleship-sized targets due to transversal. Whilst you have reasonable points, they are points that apply more to the geddon then they do to the mega. But thank you for the constructive post. I'm surprised.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.30 12:51:00 - [145] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 30/08/2008 12:54:27 The point is the Armageddon doesn't need to pull itself into range with a MWD to do it's optimal damage (e.g. the typical small gang, 30km fight after jumping through a gate), the Megathron does, and makes for a far inferior small gang platform because of it. Not a problem though as its niche is inside 10km solo, but oh-uh Sisi changes hit and it can't even do that now. As was elaborated earlier on, if you're in a small ship you need to use your speed close the range on an Armageddon to avoid getting swatted out of the skies, vs. a Megathron you use your speed to stay out of range. Post Sisi changes the Megathron can't do a damn thing at any range (hello new scramblers-killing-my-MWD-dead). -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Alpha Prime Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:06:00 - [146] Originally by: Stab Wounds blaster ship will be fine after patch, they will still be the highest dps ships in the game. Go away nub. i've flown Blasterboats since eve went retail and i know blasterships is not even close to the dps that everyone dreams of. Golem has the currently highest dps of all non-caps. There is no price on true lojalty
Gevic	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:40:00 - [147] Originally by: ShadowlordUK Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 30/08/2008 12:14:34 2) Anybody trying to get a boost for blasters loves to complain about range. The usefull range for gate warfare is between 10 and 30km, this puts it at perfect range for mega pulse AND neutron blasters with null ammo. Proof? 100's of kills with corp mates in megathrons that didn't even need to move the whole fight. The problem is neutron blasters with null has comparable tracking to mega pulses (which aren't too hot as you stated), lower optimal range, and lower damage than mega pulses with ANMF. Originally by: ShadowlordUK Naturally if you do choose to fit a mwd and you do use close range ammo, everybody knows that megathrons can do ridiculous dmg. But i'd hardly count that as a downside. Problem is you drink cap like water with the MWD on and you need to get within 4-5kms- no more, no less; in order to do its "ridiculous damage" which amounts to a whopping 100 dps more than what a geddon can do at 15kms. Any further and your in falloff, any closer and you have tracking problems because of the odd way the tracking forumla behaves. With large guns in general you can MISS at point blank range. Originally by: ShadowlordUK 3) You cant just compare one module, you have to consider the ship as a whole. Eve is balanced on a total weapon system basis. This should be obvious to anybody with even the smallest bit of common sense. The argument that the geddon as a whole should be a weaker ship then the mega because it is only a tier one has faded into insignificance due to rise in average wealth of the player base so lets set that to one side for now. In a straight comparison between the two ships, they can both hit out at 20km, the geddon can hit at the top end of the useful range being 30km, true, but then it cant hit anything orbiting it at extreme close range. Personally I've always found the dmg reduction to 0 dps at close range a more pressing issue then 0 dps at >20km because you tend to die a lot when scrambled . In terms of fittings both ships are tough to fit but I would say that the geddon is harder to fit. You have to leave a mid/low slot empty on a geddon, or fit an almost useless mod for a large number of the most effective setups. (Note: not ALL setups but a lot of them). I've never been an eft warrior but im pretty certain the mega has more base hp and compares favourably in terms of sensor strength, range and drone bay. Sensor range (Which is what I'm assuming your talking about) doesn't really come into play unless your trying to fire at something very far away. Which, for the sake of this thread, is somewhat irrelevant, since blasters can't even hit out to 1/8 the range the mega can lock. And if you check the drone bay on the mega and the geddon are the exact same size. 125m3. The sensor strength difference is almost negligable. Originally by: ShadowlordUK The mega has one less low slot, true, but most people would consider the extra mid slot far more valuable then the low. So in this respect the Mega also compares favourably. Now, in my opinion it seems obvious that the ability to use Null ammo completely tips the mega into being a superiour bs overall compared to the geddon. But lets be cautious and simply admit that at the very least it isn't underpowered. In most short range fights the mega doesnt actually have to move anywhere to get into range and in long range fights, well i'd hope you would be using rails so thats kind of irrelevant. Let the attempted flames begin. Depends on what you do. While the lack of a 4th mid limits the geddon somewhat (although its piddly cpu does the job just fine), 8th low allows it to fit more gank or tank than the mega. And I've already stated in the beginning why a null loaded mega fares worse off than a geddon with ANMF.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:08:00 - [148] The Geddon is a better gang ship than a Mega? Why, I never! Christ, peeps, use your **ing heads! Blasters have shit range: you all knew that when you started training for them. On the flipside, they have better tracking, are easier to fit, and use less cap than lasers, and are mounted on ships that can actually solo (well, right now they can, after patch it'll be a different story...). That's not to say I don't think all the changes are going to massively over Gallente... I'm pretty ed actually, since I fell in love with the Hyperion just days before the nano nerf was announced, and it's going to get ed over way worse than the Mega is, but still, comparing lasers to blasters is **ed: they are two different weapon systems, with two very different intended uses. If you want to be effective in gangs, train Amarr (or Caldari). If you want to solo, train Gallente. It's as simple as that, really. This reminds me of the time we Amarr ***ed before the Amarr boost that we couldn't solo with our shiny golden ships when compared to Gallente... now the situation is reversed... how dr(le! Now, what can be done to help blasters? Well, a big damage boost would be welcome, and maybe a cap use cut. Since it's going to take more time to get to the target, and once there, you're going to be doing less damage thanks to the web nerf, you need to be using less cap to make up for the increased MWD use, and you need to do more damage per hit to compensate for less hits/less quality hits.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:25:00 - [149] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I'm pretty **ed actually, since I fell in love with the Hyperion just days before the nano nerf was announced, and it's going to get **ed over way worse than the Mega is No, not really. The Hype can fit another web in its last mid and actually achieve better "effective" tracking than the Mega. -Liang Maybe I should've pointed out that I used it for solo low-sec gatecamping. If I use a second web on it, I have to give up either my MWD, my point, my cap booster, or my sensor booster... I don't relish any of these options.
Shaddowboss	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:49:00 - [150] OK guys, I need a straight answer..coming back to the game starting from scratch..with the changes proposed, would you spec gallente at this time?(nvm the giant exclamation point, this char is a gallente soldier)..or, should I just go roll another damn caldari, amarr, or minnie? And, I'm talking for pve/pvp, fleet fights,frigate to battleship level, the whole package. I need an honest, informed opinion, please.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:55:00 - [151] Originally by: Shaddowboss OK guys, I need a straight answer..coming back to the game starting from scratch..with the changes proposed, would you spec gallente at this time?(nvm the giant exclamation point, this char is a gallente soldier)..or, should I just go roll another damn caldari, amarr, or minnie? And, I'm talking for pve/pvp, fleet fights,frigate to battleship level, the whole package. I need an honest, informed opinion, please. Caldari Achura, train for Raven, win Eve (PvE AND PvP)!
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:10:00 - [152] Originally by: Shaddowboss OK guys, I need a straight answer..coming back to the game starting from scratch..with the changes proposed, would you spec gallente at this time?(nvm the giant exclamation point, this char is a gallente soldier)..or, should I just go roll another damn caldari, amarr, or minnie? And, I'm talking for pve/pvp, fleet fights,frigate to battleship level, the whole package. I need an honest, informed opinion, please. It's usually not worth rerolling unless you think your character is fugly or you fubared your stats. Learning and support skills transfer remarkably well to any race. That said, I would not train up any particular race until the dev blog comes out that explains all of our fates. Gallente: Getting screwed by the web/blaster nerf. Caldari: Getting screwed (potentially) by the missile nerf. Minmatar: Getting the shaft all the way around. I don't recommend training this race unless the dev blog reveals massive projectile/Minmatar boosts. Amarr: This is a super solid choice. I can't imagine CCP not nerfing the hell out of them in a year or two (about the time you get really good at using them). Starting out from scratch, I'd have to say that Caldari and Amarr are both really solid bets, because their entire design philosophy is geared towards group PVP, and solo PVP is going the way of the dodo. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Shaddowboss	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:20:00 - [153] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shaddowboss OK guys, I need a straight answer..coming back to the game starting from scratch..with the changes proposed, would you spec gallente at this time?(nvm the giant exclamation point, this char is a gallente soldier)..or, should I just go roll another damn caldari, amarr, or minnie? And, I'm talking for pve/pvp, fleet fights,frigate to battleship level, the whole package. I need an honest, informed opinion, please. It's usually not worth rerolling unless you think your character is fugly or you fubared your stats. Learning and support skills transfer remarkably well to any race. That said, I would not train up any particular race until the dev blog comes out that explains all of our fates. Gallente: Getting screwed by the web/blaster nerf. Caldari: Getting screwed (potentially) by the missile nerf. Minmatar: Getting the shaft all the way around. I don't recommend training this race unless the dev blog reveals massive projectile/Minmatar boosts. Amarr: This is a super solid choice. I can't imagine CCP not nerfing the hell out of them in a year or two (about the time you get really good at using them). Starting out from scratch, I'd have to say that Caldari and Amarr are both really solid bets, because their entire design philosophy is geared towards group PVP, and solo PVP is going the way of the dodo. -Liang I agree with you about re-rolling, except this char is less than a day old..nothing invested yet, really..I did see that drones are now going to be affected by jamming..being an e-war pilot appeals to me..I just don't want to be another cookie-cutter achura..but those crazy stats are hard to ignore. anyways, I'll give it some thought. I appreciate the responses.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:29:00 - [154] Go with achura female. They are secksie.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:37:00 - [155] lyria seems to be the only person that knows how what's up in this thread. blasters are going to be fine after patch get over it.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:39:00 - [156] Originally by: Stab Wounds lyria seems to be the only person that knows how what's up in this thread. blasters are going to be fine after patch get over it. "WAAHHHHH THEYRE NERFING MY MISSILES ONOES!" Just to make sure you remember that thread. :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:39:00 - [157] Originally by: Boz Well Go with achura female. They are secksie. ::primp:: I r hotz. I really kinda prefer the Khanid women though. Rawr! :) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 21:36:00 - [158] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Stab Wounds lyria seems to be the only person that knows how what's up in this thread. blasters are going to be fine after patch get over it. "WAAHHHHH THEYRE NERFING MY MISSILES ONOES!" Just to make sure you remember that thread. :) -Liang Gah! Beaten to it! I just love how terribly wrong Stab is about everything.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:02:00 - [159] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 30/08/2008 22:02:38 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Now, what can be done to help blasters? Well, a big damage boost would be welcome, and maybe a cap use cut. Since it's going to take more time to get to the target, and once there, you're going to be doing less damage thanks to the web nerf, you need to be using less cap to make up for the increased MWD use, and you need to do more damage per hit to compensate for less hits/less quality hits. Boosting damage alone isn't going to help, they need to be able to hit in the first place; canÆt even hit a webbed cruiser within 1.5km no speed mods on Sisi, Battleship transversal also higher too meaning more misses up close. Anyway now's the perfect opportunity to fix the tracking formula at very close æcanÆt-possibly-miss-the-broadside-of-a-barnÆ ranges... P.S Does that stab guy do anything other than troll? -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Wardeneo DEADLY RENEGADE ELITE ASSASSIN MERC SQUAD Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:05:00 - [160] Edited by: Wardeneo on 30/08/2008 22:07:00 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Boz Well Go with achura female. They are secksie. ::primp:: I r hotz. I really kinda prefer the Khanid women though. Rawr! :) -Liang lol! how my "how will gellente will be after the nerf thread" changed into what race is hotter is beyond me BUT it makes for good entertainment compared to "o what to fit my drake/raven/bb/kitsune with" threads goin on atm... wardeneo The best tactic to win a fight in eve is DPS!!! and if u cant do this or fail trying u need more DPS :)
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:18:00 - [161] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Boosting damage alone isn't going to help, they need to be able to hit in the first place; canÆt even hit a webbed cruiser within 1.5km no speed mods on Sisi, Battleship transversal also higher too meaning more misses up close. Anyway now's the perfect opportunity to fix the tracking formula at very close æcanÆt-possibly-miss-the-broadside-of-a-barnÆ ranges... Well, my thinking was that super high damage would compensate for crappy hits in falloff or lots of misses at close range, but yeah, fixing the tracking formula makes more sense Though a little damage boost wouldn't hurt... Originally by: Gabriel Karade P.S Does that stab guy do anything other than troll? No. No he does not.
Commander Solo Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:27:00 - [162] Edited by: Commander Solo on 30/08/2008 22:30:17 Des, poasting in a gallente thread. Oh say it aint so! <3 Im with des on this one though, after patch any large blaster ship is going to be epic fail.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:39:00 - [163] Originally by: Commander Solo Des, poasting in a gallente thread. Oh say it aint so! I got drawn in by the phallicships... Yeah, I WAS training up for large T2 blasters... now, not so much... Good thing I already have PEW PEW LASERS trained up to AWESOME.
Lusian	Posted - 2008.09.03 01:36:00 - [164] Nano ships are too fast. they need to be enrf'd plaine and simple. A nano battleship ? are you nuts ? Why not just give all races infinate tracking. there problem solvd. Now we will all have something to complaine about. YOu nano FA@$ are rediculous. I hope most or all of the nano FA@$ quite when the nano nerf hits, OH NO I AM A NANO DORK AND I CANT OUR RUN THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE OF THE NANO NERF.....WHAT WILL I DO...... Cruisers outrunning an interceptor is obviousley way too overpowered. Ships like cruisers are not ment to go so fast let alone faster then the smaller ships. You guys are so lame.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.03 01:38:00 - [165] Originally by: Lusian Nano ships are too fast. they need to be enrf'd plaine and simple. A nano battleship ? are you nuts ? Why not just give all races infinate tracking. there problem solvd. Now we will all have something to complaine about. YOu nano FA@$ are rediculous. I hope most or all of the nano FA@$ quite when the nano nerf hits, OH NO I AM A NANO DORK AND I CANT OUR RUN THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE OF THE NANO NERF.....WHAT WILL I DO...... Cruisers outrunning an interceptor is obviousley way too overpowered. Ships like cruisers are not ment to go so fast let alone faster then the smaller ships. You guys are so lame. While I like your random troll/flame, you really have to understand that the majority of this thread is actually about blaster tracking and how non-nano ships are going to fare. Really, I think most Gallente pilots welcome a nano nerf. I rather do... CCP gave me over a year to get my ducks in a row for BS5. ;-) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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